Moderators: bwgood77, Qwigglez, lilfishi22
bigfoot wrote:kingstyyyle wrote:I don't understand everyone claiming Jackson is good at defense. He has potential but so does Luka.
This is very true. Many folks have counted the Jackson egg well before any fluffy feathers have peeked out. Really his advanced stats last year were horrendous. Shooting and defense both need significant improvement.
jcsunsfan wrote:bwgood77 wrote:jcsunsfan wrote:
Having Jackson on the roster is what makes Doncic and Booker work, so no. The resulting roster is not good.
How does Jackson make Doncic and Booker work? Just for defense? There would be more options with Doncic than with Jackson...if you wanted you play a defensive smaller (point/shooting) guard who can be secondary ball handler and guard point guards more, spread floor better, etc. Then there is Warren.
I don't think any team would really trade the opportunity to draft Doncic for Josh Jackson though, so it's a moot point. Although Jackson's probably my favorite Sun, I'm most interested in the Suns being as good as possible.
Yes. Defense. Jackson's defensive versatility is essential to this roster.
bigfoot wrote:kingstyyyle wrote:I don't understand everyone claiming Jackson is good at defense. He has potential but so does Luka.
This is very true. Many folks have counted the Jackson egg well before any fluffy feathers have peeked out. Really his advanced stats last year were horrendous. Shooting and defense both need significant improvement.
Kerrsed wrote:jcsunsfan wrote:If we want Doncic along with Ayton out of this draft, here is how it is done. #1 draft Ayton.
Trade with Atlanta. They are rebuilding. They are amassing assets right now.
16, 31, 59, Milwaukee pick, Suns 19 #1 pick (unprotected or top 3 protected) and TJ Warren.
for #3
I would go for the top 3 protection, but I might gamble and unprotect it. Now you have a core of Ayton, Jackson, Doncic, and Booker going forward.
I love TJ, but Doncic is better at, well, everything over TJ. TJ might be a better mid-range magician and finisher. But passing, shooting, rebounding, ball-handling, and even defending. Doncic is better. Its the versatility that is really intriguing.
Just like Memphis, it would take more picks. Teams dont care about the #59, so you can take that out of the offer. #59 doesnt get you a player, it gets you a look as a player for your summer squad, and just like catching a fish to small, he gets released back into the wild.
For us to get any top 5 or even 6 pick, it would cost us #16/2019 1st Unprotected/2020 Bucks 1st top 7 protected/2021 Miami 1st Unprotected, and maybe even our own 2021 1st or a pick swap option. We also would be shipping out Warren and their choice of Chriss or Bender, or even a Salary Dump.
This is the draft to rebuild in and teams know it, so we would have to pay the premium price in order to get another pick, Specially with Booker/Jackson off the table. 2 future picks just aint gonna cut it.
psman2 wrote:Kerrsed wrote:jcsunsfan wrote:If we want Doncic along with Ayton out of this draft, here is how it is done. #1 draft Ayton.
Trade with Atlanta. They are rebuilding. They are amassing assets right now.
16, 31, 59, Milwaukee pick, Suns 19 #1 pick (unprotected or top 3 protected) and TJ Warren.
for #3
I would go for the top 3 protection, but I might gamble and unprotect it. Now you have a core of Ayton, Jackson, Doncic, and Booker going forward.
I love TJ, but Doncic is better at, well, everything over TJ. TJ might be a better mid-range magician and finisher. But passing, shooting, rebounding, ball-handling, and even defending. Doncic is better. Its the versatility that is really intriguing.
Just like Memphis, it would take more picks. Teams dont care about the #59, so you can take that out of the offer. #59 doesnt get you a player, it gets you a look as a player for your summer squad, and just like catching a fish to small, he gets released back into the wild.
For us to get any top 5 or even 6 pick, it would cost us #16/2019 1st Unprotected/2020 Bucks 1st top 7 protected/2021 Miami 1st Unprotected, and maybe even our own 2021 1st or a pick swap option. We also would be shipping out Warren and their choice of Chriss or Bender, or even a Salary Dump.
This is the draft to rebuild in and teams know it, so we would have to pay the premium price in order to get another pick, Specially with Booker/Jackson off the table. 2 future picks just aint gonna cut it.
I think Memphis would need a better pick this year to consider a trade like this. What is the highest 2018 pick that Phoenix could get for their 2019 unprotected 1st with teams knowing that they are adding a lot of young talent this year and maybe some win now vets to their squad. I would guess that pick 10 is about as higher as you could get. Franchise's need the excitement of young players to get their fanbase engaged. Could you see Cleveland selling the fans that yep Lebron is leaving and we sold Irving for this vaulted Brooklyn pick, but now we going to gamble on trading this for the Phoenix pick next year in a weaker draft. Nope.
So the offer is 2018 10, 16, Future 2020 Mil Pick (20-25 range likely), Miami pick (not likely in the lottery since they never tank)and a Warren for Parsons swap. I have Warren on a negative value contract, he just does not do the things I want from a SF which are shoot at least a passable 3pt % and play some D. I would not trade our Dillon Brooks for Warren straight up for example. So getting rid of Parsons is nice but this swap does not give us any immediate cap space or a good fit and doesn't help us offer Evans more than the MLE which we can already offer him.
I could see maybe a three way deal with Warren (if some team has positive value for him) or swap Dudley and 16 for better fit, like maybe LAC for Harris.
However if the draft rolls around and we still have four and Doncic is there, I am taking him no matter if he is threatening to retire in Europe.
With that as the backdrop, Hawks GM Travis Schlenk was prompted about Doncic on Tuesday as part of an interview with 92.9 The Game in Atlanta and he started by indicating that Atlanta is looking to “get a read” on Doncic’s status. (via KL Chouinard of Hawks.com) “I had a chance to sit down with his agent last week in Chicago and try to get a read on the situation, and his agent obviously was flying over to the (EuroLeague) Final Four in Belgrade. He’ll get back to the States this weekend and we’re going to circle back with him.” – via Peachtree Hoops
thamadkant wrote:bigfoot wrote:kingstyyyle wrote:I don't understand everyone claiming Jackson is good at defense. He has potential but so does Luka.
This is very true. Many folks have counted the Jackson egg well before any fluffy feathers have peeked out. Really his advanced stats last year were horrendous. Shooting and defense both need significant improvement.
What's sad is...
You're using advance stats negatively to put Jackson down this time around.
And not even factoring the context.
You know damn well he's the Suns beat perimeter defender outside of Harrison. And the main reason the stats show he's bad is because he Suns have the worst defense in the league and Jackson guarded the other teams best perimeter player... And even inside player in the case of guarding Davis.
You are so in love with the idea of Doncic that you are using stats that should not be used or are irrelevant in a vacuum.
Put Jackson on the Warriors or Celtics or a team with good defense around and he will be putting up better defensive advance numbers.
Kawhi Leonard would have negative defensive stats on the Suns and you know it.
But you choose to put down the Suns bright spot from last season and considered a key player moving forward so that you can justify Suns picking a player that will likely not even play for the Suns.
True colors come out...
I would expect you to have the same view of Josh next season as he starts for the Suns.
But I have a feeling you'll be back on his wagon when all the dust settle and Josh is lobbing alley oops to Ayton.
You should be cautious on putting Suns players down that currently wear their colors.
You should blame the fact that the Suns already have Booker and needs Ayton more so than Doncic.... And the owner is in love with the big man from his alumni.
Kerrsed wrote:jcsunsfan wrote:starbosa10 wrote:Just please no to 20m a year of gordon
I know I should post this in the conspiracy thread. But Bill Duffy is Ayton's agent. He also is close to Kokoskov (his agent at one time I think). Duffy is also Doncic's agent and has openly said if he could manipulate things for him to play under Igor, he would.
So, can you guess who Aaron Gordon's agent is?
This has been pointed out MANY times now in the Conspiracy thread.
We have a great relationship with him because he was Nash's agent as well, and we always did right by him (Even sending him to our rival when we didnt have to or could have got a better return for him from other teams). He is also Alec Browns agent too.
Warning! Partial conspiracy talk belowSpoiler:
As for Gordons agent, its Calvin Andrews......but he works for BDA (Bill Duffy Agency). Same thing with Dragic, Pat Bev, and Nikola Vučević, they are clients of Bill Duffy's partner Rade Filipovich. Mike Conley is also under the BDA umbrella, because his dad is his agent and works for BDA.
Kerrsed wrote:psman2 wrote:Kerrsed wrote:
Just like Memphis, it would take more picks. Teams dont care about the #59, so you can take that out of the offer. #59 doesnt get you a player, it gets you a look as a player for your summer squad, and just like catching a fish to small, he gets released back into the wild.
For us to get any top 5 or even 6 pick, it would cost us #16/2019 1st Unprotected/2020 Bucks 1st top 7 protected/2021 Miami 1st Unprotected, and maybe even our own 2021 1st or a pick swap option. We also would be shipping out Warren and their choice of Chriss or Bender, or even a Salary Dump.
This is the draft to rebuild in and teams know it, so we would have to pay the premium price in order to get another pick, Specially with Booker/Jackson off the table. 2 future picks just aint gonna cut it.
I think Memphis would need a better pick this year to consider a trade like this. What is the highest 2018 pick that Phoenix could get for their 2019 unprotected 1st with teams knowing that they are adding a lot of young talent this year and maybe some win now vets to their squad. I would guess that pick 10 is about as higher as you could get. Franchise's need the excitement of young players to get their fanbase engaged. Could you see Cleveland selling the fans that yep Lebron is leaving and we sold Irving for this vaulted Brooklyn pick, but now we going to gamble on trading this for the Phoenix pick next year in a weaker draft. Nope.
So the offer is 2018 10, 16, Future 2020 Mil Pick (20-25 range likely), Miami pick (not likely in the lottery since they never tank)and a Warren for Parsons swap. I have Warren on a negative value contract, he just does not do the things I want from a SF which are shoot at least a passable 3pt % and play some D. I would not trade our Dillon Brooks for Warren straight up for example. So getting rid of Parsons is nice but this swap does not give us any immediate cap space or a good fit and doesn't help us offer Evans more than the MLE which we can already offer him.
I could see maybe a three way deal with Warren (if some team has positive value for him) or swap Dudley and 16 for better fit, like maybe LAC for Harris.
However if the draft rolls around and we still have four and Doncic is there, I am taking him no matter if he is threatening to retire in Europe.
Love the feedback, but im sorry, if you view Warren as a negative contract, then i honestly dont know what to tell you. He is a 20PPG scorer on great percentages (very efficient for a SF). Yeah, he doesnt shoot 3's, you got me there, but he is an average defender, and not a negative on that aspect of the game.
We may also differ on the Miami pick, so i'd be more than willing to replace it with our own 2021 pick, since Miami never tanks and the Suns always seem to be in the lottery. Hell, id prefer that (As would the rest of the board). While they may never tank, im willing to bet that Lebron isnt going back, Wade is done, and in 3 years the team will be a shell of its former self, not due to tanking, but due to not having any good players left.
Fun Fact:Spoiler:
Yeah, we could get the #10, but that would involve taking on Noah's contract, and personally, as much as i would love to have both Ayton and Doncic (#1 & #4), no way we do it at the expense of taking on 2 horrible contracts (Noah & Parsons), along with 4+ picks. That is crazy and way too damn much just to move up 12 spots in the draft. If the package offered up isnt enough, then i dont know what more i can say, because i dont see it getting better.
bwgood77 wrote:Kerrsed wrote:jcsunsfan wrote:I know I should post this in the conspiracy thread. But Bill Duffy is Ayton's agent. He also is close to Kokoskov (his agent at one time I think). Duffy is also Doncic's agent and has openly said if he could manipulate things for him to play under Igor, he would.
So, can you guess who Aaron Gordon's agent is?
This has been pointed out MANY times now in the Conspiracy thread.
We have a great relationship with him because he was Nash's agent as well, and we always did right by him (Even sending him to our rival when we didnt have to or could have got a better return for him from other teams). He is also Alec Browns agent too.
Warning! Partial conspiracy talk belowSpoiler:
As for Gordons agent, its Calvin Andrews......but he works for BDA (Bill Duffy Agency). Same thing with Dragic, Pat Bev, and Nikola Vučević, they are clients of Bill Duffy's partner Rade Filipovich. Mike Conley is also under the BDA umbrella, because his dad is his agent and works for BDA.
I wonder who Duffy would rather the Suns take at #1. I'm guessing Doncic, considering he's talked about it and the comfort level, and then Ayton would for sure go #2, maximizing the $ and situation between the two.
jcsunsfan wrote:bwgood77 wrote:Kerrsed wrote:
This has been pointed out MANY times now in the Conspiracy thread.
We have a great relationship with him because he was Nash's agent as well, and we always did right by him (Even sending him to our rival when we didnt have to or could have got a better return for him from other teams). He is also Alec Browns agent too.
Warning! Partial conspiracy talk belowSpoiler:
As for Gordons agent, its Calvin Andrews......but he works for BDA (Bill Duffy Agency). Same thing with Dragic, Pat Bev, and Nikola Vučević, they are clients of Bill Duffy's partner Rade Filipovich. Mike Conley is also under the BDA umbrella, because his dad is his agent and works for BDA.
I wonder who Duffy would rather the Suns take at #1. I'm guessing Doncic, considering he's talked about it and the comfort level, and then Ayton would for sure go #2, maximizing the $ and situation between the two.
It would be absolutely unethical for him to have a preference. And I doubt he really has one. He will get paid the same either way.
His answer, once more, left every scenario open: “Well, I still have to win a Spanish SuperCopa in Spain. I haven’t won it yet. I won everything but you can still win more, more times. Getting the titles again is something that would only happen in Real Madrid, so everything is still open”.
jcsunsfan wrote:On the conspiracy front. Luka casts more doubt on coming to the NBA.
Doncic who is the youngest Liga Endesa and EuroLeague MVP was asked if he is going to leave for the NBA after winning everything in Europe.His answer, once more, left every scenario open: “Well, I still have to win a Spanish SuperCopa in Spain. I haven’t won it yet. I won everything but you can still win more, more times. Getting the titles again is something that would only happen in Real Madrid, so everything is still open”.
https://www.eurohoops.net/en/acb/683241/doncic-on-his-nba-decision-everything-is-open-i-still-have-to-win-the-spanish-supercopa/
jcsunsfan wrote:On the conspiracy front. Luka casts more doubt on coming to the NBA.
Doncic who is the youngest Liga Endesa and EuroLeague MVP was asked if he is going to leave for the NBA after winning everything in Europe.His answer, once more, left every scenario open: “Well, I still have to win a Spanish SuperCopa in Spain. I haven’t won it yet. I won everything but you can still win more, more times. Getting the titles again is something that would only happen in Real Madrid, so everything is still open”.
https://www.eurohoops.net/en/acb/683241/doncic-on-his-nba-decision-everything-is-open-i-still-have-to-win-the-spanish-supercopa/
tanksonbaby wrote:Its pretty simple. If you have the opportunity to add Ayton and Doncic to your existing core of Booker and Jackson, you do it. I don't care what it costs, people are over thinking this. Just do it if possible. Then you chuck all you eggs in the Aaron Gordon basket via FA.
That is a potentially great core. You obviously need some pieces around that but they will come if those guys pan out.
tanksonbaby wrote:Its pretty simple. If you have the opportunity to add Ayton and Doncic to your existing core of Booker and Jackson, you do it. I don't care what it costs, people are over thinking this. Just do it if possible. Then you chuck all you eggs in the Aaron Gordon basket via FA.
That is a potentially great core. You obviously need some pieces around that but they will come if those guys pan out.
