Game 24: Blazers (9-14) @ Suns (10-13)

[Qwigglez]

Interesting stat for the game, Blazers shot 7 free throws. Suns shot 18.

[bwgood77]

List the PGs better than Bledsoe this year.

Are we talking pure stats, because Marbury had terrific stats, still wasn't all too conducive to winning basketball games. I like Bledsoe, he's such a talented, versatile player who goes after it with a nonstop motor but he still has a tendency to play out of control and doesn't really seem to plan ahead a whole lot, just plays like a bull in a china shop, charging in and hoping for the best. You need more out of your PG position.

We're talking regular, advanced, whatever stats. But yes, stats, because frankly just your eyeballs don't hold much weight, so numbers are the most objective. Bledsoe is nearly tops in the league at finding teammates at the 3 point line, a plus defender by nearly every metric, and a top 15 scorer in all of basketball on decent fg%. Marbury, who has nothing to do with this conversation because he doesn't play anymore, did nothing like Bledsoe on defense, and while his assist numbers were misleading, he didn't penetrate like Bledsoe does to get them, which is a big part of making your teammates better. So yes, let's see who you actually think we would need to win with at the PG spot. Tell me who these PGs are in the NBA this year.

Bledsoe does many great things, and I don't want to get rid of him. I do prefer players who look to empower the TEAM first as opposed to getting their own. He should never dribble for 15 seconds and then jack up a midrange shot imo. The players just watch, and they may become disinterested.

KJ scored a lot at times, but when he would shoot it would be either after ball movement or on a fast break where he takes it to rim or just suddenly pulls up and nails it when people were not expecting him to just stop and shoot. I just simply like more team ball. I don't think this is Hornacek's fault. Part of the reason he may put in Price or Tucker or whoever are because if the guards are not going to pass anyway, you may as well put in pesky defenders. For the record, I didn't want either of those guys in there, but when your offensive guys stand around and watch, it doesn't help much either, and they probably get out of the flow to some extent.

[Cutter]

Our starting guards lost that game. Even though Bledsoe didn't have a bad game stat wise, he blew three possessions down the stretch of the third. Knight literally sucked at shooting. No reason to be in the game for most of the time he was. Price actually disturbed CJ, and was the better player, if we would have used our big guys more.

Our guards don't make good enough plays to get guys open, so they dribble out the clock, and throw it to guys that aren't very good catch and shoot players, or guys that don't have position to get a good shot off. That has to change. We should have kept feeding Len, and run some good pick and rolls for Jefferson while he was in. Booker needs more shots.

I get to watch another game, which looked to be a down to the wire game, and instead I get to watch Knight suck a fat one.

Completely agree. Nice post.

[RaisingArizona]

Defense was awful all game. I get McCollum and Lillard lighting it up because they do that to everyone, but letting guys like Aminu and Crabbe wreck your defense is inexcusable. Rotations still make 0 sense to me. Going all defense down 10 with little time left is nonsense. And it's not like our defense was playing well to begin with. Somebody needs to explain Tucker's use again because if you're a lockdown defender you have to bring it every night on that end. It's not like offense where your shot just isn't there some days. Aminu should never have so much ease scoring and grabbing double digit boards. Tucker causes a lot of turnovers on offense. His rotations are off, he's uncomfortable with the ball, and aside from bullying his way up on a rebound he's basically worthless on that end. 29% from 3 so he can't even be a spacer of any kind, and I see our guards and bigs choose to go up instead of swinging it to him because they know he can't make it. For the love of god quit starting this bum or trade him. Hustling and playing hard is not enough.

Turnovers are still a problem, and it's not all the guards. Our guys don't come to the ball at times and sometimes don't expect it.

Len and Booker disappeared down the stretch so we could play Price, Tucker, and Knight. I can understand Knight because he's streaky and frankly has earned the right to be in down the stretch this year, but the other 2 playing key minutes is nonsense.

This.

[Cutter]

I agree. It's quite unbelievable how low their bbiq seems.

I don't think Knight/Bledsoe have low basketball IQ. I just that Hornacek makes them appear to have low basketball IQ because he has no **** clue what he is doing when it comes to the fourth quarter. No clue. Period.

This has been proven multiple times this season. Hornacek has poor execution, clueless with subs and drags the team down with his decisions.

I think its natural to blame the coaches for everything in any sport but in reality, your personnel still have to execute. Hornacek isn't coaching Bledsoe and Knight to make ill-advised cross court passes, to chuck up bad shots, to lose track of the 24 second clock.



Hornacek has to work with the players he is given, he has two PG's that are extremely talented but lack on court awareness and are both more shoot-first than pass-first guards that look to setup their teammates and get them involved in the flow of the game. If there is one thing that Hornacek is to be blamed for, its for his insistence on this two PG system that has resulted in Ronnie Price being perhaps the only real PG on the roster.


Right now I'd say that Devin Booker is even a better passer than either Bledsoe or Knight.....who says no?

Such a nice post. You have a very good perspective of what a balanced team needs. You should post more on this board.

[bwgood77]

Our starting guards lost that game. Even though Bledsoe didn't have a bad game stat wise, he blew three possessions down the stretch of the third. Knight literally sucked at shooting. No reason to be in the game for most of the time he was. Price actually disturbed CJ, and was the better player, if we would have used our big guys more.

Our guards don't make good enough plays to get guys open, so they dribble out the clock, and throw it to guys that aren't very good catch and shoot players, or guys that don't have position to get a good shot off. That has to change. We should have kept feeding Len, and run some good pick and rolls for Jefferson while he was in. Booker needs more shots.

I get to watch another game, which looked to be a down to the wire game, and instead I get to watch Knight suck a fat one.

Completely agree. Nice post.

I did notice Price had the highest +/- in the game. Those turnovers with less than 4 minutes left were just brutal. Not just him but Bledsoe and Knight.

[bwgood77]

I don't think Knight/Bledsoe have low basketball IQ. I just that Hornacek makes them appear to have low basketball IQ because he has no **** clue what he is doing when it comes to the fourth quarter. No clue. Period.

This has been proven multiple times this season. Hornacek has poor execution, clueless with subs and drags the team down with his decisions.

I think its natural to blame the coaches for everything in any sport but in reality, your personnel still have to execute. Hornacek isn't coaching Bledsoe and Knight to make ill-advised cross court passes, to chuck up bad shots, to lose track of the 24 second clock.



Hornacek has to work with the players he is given, he has two PG's that are extremely talented but lack on court awareness and are both more shoot-first than pass-first guards that look to setup their teammates and get them involved in the flow of the game. If there is one thing that Hornacek is to be blamed for, its for his insistence on this two PG system that has resulted in Ronnie Price being perhaps the only real PG on the roster.


Right now I'd say that Devin Booker is even a better passer than either Bledsoe or Knight.....who says no?

Such a nice post. You have a very good perspective of what a balanced team needs. You should post more on this board.

Agreed. He was on of our summer MVP posters (as was AtheJ415) and it's nice to see both posting. But hadn't seen Skinny at all in a while (unless we are talking about Tyson's legs), so nice to see him back.

[AtheJ415]

You are entitled to your incorrect opinion

List the PGs better than Bledsoe this year.

It's not all about stats. It's about ball movement. He stops the ball movement of possessions. I like Bledsoe but as an off guard like he played in 13-14.

Curry, Paul, Westbrook, Conley, Parker, Lowry, Teague, lillard and I would take dragic on this team running PG over bled. I like bled but not as a pure PG. way too many possessions with him just dribbling around for 10-15 seconds doing nothing

Bledsoe wasn't really an off guard in 13-14. He was injured a lot so Goran saw more minutes at the 1, but when he played he wasn't a 2 guard. Most of his actual effectiveness came with the ball in his hands. He wasn't a traditional 2 who ran off screens to get open jumpers.

Westbrook was considered one of the top ballstoppers in the league for most of his career, despite actually being a good passer, but all of what you've said is what you find on every Thunder board for the past 5 years, particularly in his 2nd year as a starter. It's funny, because of all the players in the league Bledsoe is probably most similar to Westbrook stylistically. And the complaints here most closely mimic Thunder fan's complaints of Westbrook (low IQ chucker who only relies on athleticism, not a point guard, need to start Reggie Jackson and move Westbrook to the 2, etc.).

Teague is frequently a ballstopper, and in fact questioned the hire of MB because he didn't see how he'd fit in their system when so much of his game is based on one-on-one action.

Dragic is averaging 11 and 4.8 with an awful 13 PER at age 29 with a loaded team in the east and on a ridiculous contract. The fact that you'd list him when he looks like one of the biggest dodged bullets of a contract in the NBA right now is very telling.

Westbrook, Conley, Parker, Lowry, Curry, Teague all average fewer assists than Bledsoe. In terms of assist %, Bledsoe is behind Westbrook, Conley,Lillard, Curry, and Lowry, but ahead of Dragic and Parker. Also, factor in that Bledsoe is near the top for all players in the entire league on assists to 3 point shooters, and his assists are arguably more valuable than everyone on that list but Westbrook.

Finally, bledsoe's Usage % is below Westbrook, Curry, Lillard.

His winshares/48 are 62nd in all of basketball (keep in mind since it's /48, a lot of guys who have played like 5 minutes are ahead of him and push that number down), only behind Curry, Westbrook, Lowry, Parker, and Paul among PGs.

Point being, of that group only Lillard is younger than Bledsoe, and only by 6 months. So that means in this entire league, there's one guy you could win with Bledsoe's age or younger, and that's somebody we simply couldn't get because Portland rightfully isn't trading him for anyone not named Steph Curry.

[bwgood77]

List the PGs better than Bledsoe this year.

It's not all about stats. It's about ball movement. He stops the ball movement of possessions. I like Bledsoe but as an off guard like he played in 13-14.

Curry, Paul, Westbrook, Conley, Parker, Lowry, Teague, lillard and I would take dragic on this team running PG over bled. I like bled but not as a pure PG. way too many possessions with him just dribbling around for 10-15 seconds doing nothing

Bledsoe wasn't really an off guard in 13-14. He was injured a lot so Goran saw more minutes at the 1, but when he played he wasn't a 2 guard. Most of his actual effectiveness came with the ball in his hands. He wasn't a traditional 2 who ran off screens to get open jumpers.

Westbrook was considered one of the top ballstoppers in the league for most of his career, despite actually being a good passer, but all of what you've said is what you find on every Thunder board for the past 5 years, particularly in his 2nd year as a starter. It's funny, because of all the players in the league Bledsoe is probably most similar to Westbrook stylistically. And the complaints here most closely mimic Thunder fan's complaints of Westbrook (low IQ chucker who only relies on athleticism, not a point guard, need to start Reggie Jackson and move Westbrook to the 2, etc.).

Teague is frequently a ballstopper, and in fact questioned the hire of MB because he didn't see how he'd fit in their system when so much of his game is based on one-on-one action.

Dragic is averaging 11 and 4.8 with an awful 13 PER at age 29 with a loaded team in the east and on a ridiculous contract. The fact that you'd list him when he looks like one of the biggest dodged bullets of a contract in the NBA right now is very telling.

Westbrook, Conley, Parker, Lowry, Curry, Teague all average fewer assists than Bledsoe. In terms of assist %, Bledsoe is behind Westbrook, Conley,Lillard, Curry, and Lowry, but ahead of Dragic and Parker. Also, factor in that Bledsoe is near the top for all players in the entire league on assists to 3 point shooters, and his assists are arguably more valuable than everyone on that list but Westbrook.

Finally, bledsoe's Usage % is below Westbrook, Curry, Lillard.

His winshares/48 are 62nd in all of basketball (keep in mind since it's /48, a lot of guys who have played like 5 minutes are ahead of him and push that number down), only behind Curry, Westbrook, Lowry, Parker, and Paul among PGs.

Point being, of that group only Lillard is younger than Bledsoe, and only by 6 months. So that means in this entire league, there's one guy you could win with Bledsoe's age or younger, and that's somebody we simply couldn't get because Portland rightfully isn't trading him for anyone not named Steph Curry.

Great points.

[AtheJ415]

Are we talking pure stats, because Marbury had terrific stats, still wasn't all too conducive to winning basketball games. I like Bledsoe, he's such a talented, versatile player who goes after it with a nonstop motor but he still has a tendency to play out of control and doesn't really seem to plan ahead a whole lot, just plays like a bull in a china shop, charging in and hoping for the best. You need more out of your PG position.

We're talking regular, advanced, whatever stats. But yes, stats, because frankly just your eyeballs don't hold much weight, so numbers are the most objective. Bledsoe is nearly tops in the league at finding teammates at the 3 point line, a plus defender by nearly every metric, and a top 15 scorer in all of basketball on decent fg%. Marbury, who has nothing to do with this conversation because he doesn't play anymore, did nothing like Bledsoe on defense, and while his assist numbers were misleading, he didn't penetrate like Bledsoe does to get them, which is a big part of making your teammates better. So yes, let's see who you actually think we would need to win with at the PG spot. Tell me who these PGs are in the NBA this year.

Bledsoe does many great things, and I don't want to get rid of him. I do prefer players who look to empower the TEAM first as opposed to getting their own. He should never dribble for 15 seconds and then jack up a midrange shot imo. The players just watch, and they may become disinterested.

KJ scored a lot at times, but when he would shoot it would be either after ball movement or on a fast break where he takes it to rim or just suddenly pulls up and nails it when people were not expecting him to just stop and shoot. I just simply like more team ball. I don't think this is Hornacek's fault. Part of the reason he may put in Price or Tucker or whoever are because if the guards are not going to pass anyway, you may as well put in pesky defenders. For the record, I didn't want either of those guys in there, but when your offensive guys stand around and watch, it doesn't help much either, and they probably get out of the flow to some extent.

I agree. He has some improvements to make in those scenarios in particular, but that's exactly what you saw OKC fans and media say about Westbrook basically until this year. The idea that he has to be moved for a more traditional PG, when almost no PGs aside from CP3 (by choice) and Rondo and Rubio (because they can't hit the broad side of a barn with a rocket launcher so must pass) are what you would call a pass first PG in this league anymore, is just wrong.

We have a top 10, and arguably top 5 PG in the league who is younger than basically everyone you'd list above him and our fan base sees him as what's wrong with this team, which has a couple 3 point gunners, youngsters finding their way, PJ Tucker starting, and whose most reliable player last season decided to commit felonies and smack talk the fan base while failing his way out of town. It's quite unbelievable to see. I'd frankly argue Bledsoe might be our most proven player right now.

[bwgood77]

We're talking regular, advanced, whatever stats. But yes, stats, because frankly just your eyeballs don't hold much weight, so numbers are the most objective. Bledsoe is nearly tops in the league at finding teammates at the 3 point line, a plus defender by nearly every metric, and a top 15 scorer in all of basketball on decent fg%. Marbury, who has nothing to do with this conversation because he doesn't play anymore, did nothing like Bledsoe on defense, and while his assist numbers were misleading, he didn't penetrate like Bledsoe does to get them, which is a big part of making your teammates better. So yes, let's see who you actually think we would need to win with at the PG spot. Tell me who these PGs are in the NBA this year.

Bledsoe does many great things, and I don't want to get rid of him. I do prefer players who look to empower the TEAM first as opposed to getting their own. He should never dribble for 15 seconds and then jack up a midrange shot imo. The players just watch, and they may become disinterested.

KJ scored a lot at times, but when he would shoot it would be either after ball movement or on a fast break where he takes it to rim or just suddenly pulls up and nails it when people were not expecting him to just stop and shoot. I just simply like more team ball. I don't think this is Hornacek's fault. Part of the reason he may put in Price or Tucker or whoever are because if the guards are not going to pass anyway, you may as well put in pesky defenders. For the record, I didn't want either of those guys in there, but when your offensive guys stand around and watch, it doesn't help much either, and they probably get out of the flow to some extent.

I agree. He has some improvements to make in those scenarios in particular, but that's exactly what you saw OKC fans and media say about Westbrook basically until this year. The idea that he has to be moved for a more traditional PG, when almost no PGs aside from CP3 (by choice) and Rondo and Rubio (because they can't hit the broad side of a barn with a rocket launcher so must pass) are what you would call a pass first PG in this league anymore, is just wrong.

We have a top 10, and arguably top 5 PG in the league who is younger than basically everyone you'd list above him and our fan base sees him as what's wrong with this team, which has a couple 3 point gunners, youngsters finding their way, PJ Tucker starting, and whose most reliable player last season decided to commit felonies and smack talk the fan base while failing his way out of town. It's quite unbelievable to see. I'd frankly argue Bledsoe might be our most proven player right now.

I agree he is our most proven player, but if he is going to lead the team, I think he first and foremost should get as many people involved as possible early. I think this could just get the team in a total groove and make a world of difference. His individual stats are great, but the team isn't playing well. I do think we don't have the most talent, but I think we have a little more talent than those we have similar records to. We'd be like 12th in the east right now.

[AtheJ415]

I guess from my perspective, I'd say Bledsoe is the one guy you don't trade from this team, and is the one person I've been most optimistic about this year aside from Booker. I think his vision has gotten better every year, and I think he'll develop a better knowledge of the game the more he plays. His IQ will improve just by the game slowing down, and that does happen for most every veteran. He's still a 2nd year player, and his supporting cast is mostly young guys and non-versatile floor spacers. His defense and the ability to get past his defender are elite, and his shooting has finally come along. Yes, it would be nice to have Steve Nash back in our backcourt or a young CP3, but you look around the league and those guys don't exist. That's exactly why those guys are so valuable, but even given that neither has a title, and other pure PGs like Jason Kidd didn't get one until he was out of his prime. PGs today are scorers, and for a rebuilding team there aren't many you'd want to take over Bled. It's really just Curry and Lillard (arguably, Lillard doesn't defend like Bledsoe), and maybe Russell if you were that high on him coming out of the draft (although I'm not).

I do agree with some questioning the Bledsoe and Knight pairing, particularly given how Booker has looked. I'm fine trading Knight because he's not the defensive player Bledsoe is, but it better be for a star big (like as a part of a deal for Cousins) or SF (although I don't think any exist that would be traded), or a pick to get a guy you are sold on. Because even Knight on his own is better than 99% of the 23 year olds in this league. He's younger then McCollum actually.

[Grots]

sounds like Mike D'Antoni is gonna be an associate coach for the 76ers.

Would have been a great hire for the Suns; not a head coach, but someone helping design offense. Too bad Sarver poisoned that well.

[sunskerr]

Bledsoe has absolutely no part in this loss and people should be ashamed of themselves for bringing that up. By and large he is our best player this year and has surpassed guys like Conley/Teague. The rest of the roster needs to catch up to him. We should also be using Brandon Knight solely as our shooting guard, as literally every game going back to his Milwaukee days show. I think he has shown this year that he could be better than a guy like DeRozan.

[Puff]

Booker gets 4 shots

Warren gets 3 shots

CRIMINAL

Our point guards have tunnel vison and do no keep the ball moving. I watched Bledsoe take 4 horrible shots in a row at the end of the half with Booker wide open on the wing. This is while Booker was perfect from the field and had hit 8 - 3 pointers in a row. He never even looked his way. While Bledsoe made some of those shots. They were the wrong shots for the team to take. Knight repeatedly takes horrible shots and does not keep his teammates involved. This is while Hornacek looks on and seems to approve of their play. If Booker or Warren farts the wrong way they are back on the bench.

When Booker does get the ball I think he is in shock but he still never hoists up a bad shot unless the clock is running down. Basically no one shares the ball other than Booker and Leurer. Other than them everyone else just jack up shots at their 1st opportunity.

This is the crap style of basketball that he have endured under the direction on Hornacek other than during his 1st year when Dragic had an all star worthy season and the ball moved from side to side. It started last year when we had Bledsoe and Thomas running the show. It has not stopped.

We cannot continue to dump player after player and hope for better results.

The worst thing that happened was we won the previous two games prior to this game.

Hornacek does not have a clue and needs to go, now.

Morris has not played for a week and we still suck. While I want him to go as much as anyone, he really is not our biggest problem.

At some point hopefully management sees the light.

I have no idea who would make a good replacement for Hornacek but this team needs a change in leadership. At this point that appears to be nonexistent.

[Puff]

sounds like Mike D'Antoni is gonna be an associate coach for the 76ers.

Would have been a great hire for the Suns; not a head coach, but someone helping design offense. Too bad Sarver poisoned that well.

He certainly would be better for this team than Hornacek.

[GreenRiddler]

Crabbe is an animal.

Actually the proper term is Crustacean.

[AtheJ415]

Booker gets 4 shots

Warren gets 3 shots

CRIMINAL

Our point guards have tunnel vison and do no keep the ball moving. I watched Bledsoe take 4 horrible shots in a row at the end of the half with Booker wide open on the wing. This is while Booker was perfect from the field and had hit 8 - 3 pointers in a row. He never even looked his way. While Bledsoe made some of those shots. They were the wrong shots for the team to take. Knight repeatedly takes horrible shots and does not keep his teammates involved. This is while Hornacek looks on and seems to approve of their play. If Booker or Warren farts the wrong way they are back on the bench.

When Booker does get the ball I think he is in shock but he still never hoists up a bad shot unless the clock is running down. Basically no one shares the ball other than Booker and Leurer. Other than them everyone else just jack up shots at their 1st opportunity.

This is the crap style of basketball that he have endured under the direction on Hornacek other than during his 1st year when Dragic had an all star worthy season and the ball moved from side to side. It started last year when we had Bledsoe and Thomas running the show. It has not stopped.

We cannot continue to dump player after player and hope for better results.

The worst thing that happened was we won the previous two games prior to this game.

Hornacek does not have a clue and needs to go, now.

Morris has not played for a week and we still suck. While I want him to go as much as anyone, he really is not our biggest problem.

At some point hopefully management sees the light.

I have no idea who would make a good replacement for Hornacek but this team needs a change in leadership. At this point that appears to be nonexistent.

To me Bledsoe does look to get others involved. At times he does go into hero ball mode but his overall numbers put him as a solid passer. I think part of the problem with the 4th quarter offense is that everyone on the court stagnates. It's as if they all think we have a dominant scorer when our offense works so much better when we don't play that way. We should be continuing to make back door cuts, run pick and rolls, high screens, etc.. There's a give and take. It's a failure across the board imo.

Knight had double digit assists today. I do agree though that sometimes it's not your night and you need to stop shooting. He was definitely forcing it out there.

I completely agree about the lack of shots for Booker and Warren though. I get that we have a somewhat free-flowing offense, but we should be running set plays within that to get our best shooters (like Booker, Tele, Leuer, Knight) shots when possible. Tele and Leuer tends to get theirs off of pick and pop and drive and kick scenarios, but in the 4th quarter we shrink up, movement stops, so ball movement stops with it, and we end up running bad offense. It's those scenarios where you should be running Booker and Tele off of screens to get them open looks. We should be using Booker somewhat similarly to how the Hawks use Korver, particularly when our offense stagnates. Elevator screens off of out of bounds plays, having Booker coming off the ball opposite to the pick and rolls when the defense is focused elsewhere, or really anything. Instead we stick with an offense designed around keeping one guy in the corner, and running pick and pop or pick and roll scenarios on either side, with the occasional high post pass to a big. It's just too open and relies too much on our guards to make something happen when things break down. I think part of it is that the opposing defense gets used to defending us over 48 minutes. We don't change things up enough.

[Qwigglez]

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkuCzIj0ZSo[/youtube]

[Qwigglez]

Bledsoe had a quiet monster game.
Just so everyone is aware Bledsoe/Knight is the fourth highest scoring duo in the league. I believe the top three are Westbrook/Durant, Curry/Klay, Lillard/McCollum. Before tonight I think Bled/Knight was actually third.
Let that sink in for a second. We absolutely need help on offense. Someone else needs to be able to create their own shot. Is Cousins on the trade block yet?