2022-23 Season Discussion and Speculation 4 - Trade season continues - No player trade restrictions

[Ghost of Kleine]

https://www.hoopsrumors.com/phoenix-suns/

Mavericks, Kings Interested In Rui Hachimura
January 23rd, 2023 at 9:05am CST by Arthur Hill

There had been reports that Hachimura was offered to the Suns as part of a deal for Jae Crowder, although a Wizards official denied that rumor earlier this month. Scotto hears that Washington no longer has interest in Crowder because he may not be able to make an immediate impact after such a long layoff.

So apparently Crowder sitting out for so long, AND Jones allowing him to just sit home and not play, has tanked his perceived trade value dramatically, and is the biggest reason that teams aren't valuing him! The reports that the suns have been looking for trades unsuccessfully for quite awhile now only leads further credence to this notion. Jones should've looked to trade him right away rather than to just sit him and eat his 10 million contract with no return on the investment. Hopefully he can salvage some modicum of value from this Crowder fiasco!

Could look at it both ways. He would've had little trade value when teams were just starting out the season and not knowing whether they need a guy like Crowder or not as they didn't know how they would be placed in terms of the playoff standing so early in the regular season. A team like the Lakers for example were smart not to blow their assets early to shore them up for some sort of playoff run that early in the season when they didn't know how this new team would play out. No team has made a trade since the start of the season until the 5th of Jan and this is the first player for player trade so far.

I'm fine with Jones keeping this for the back pocket especially when you know the offers we got for Crowder was weak AF. If you knew what Crowder's baseline value is (Duncan Robinson/Grayson Allen) then you know those kinds of trades are always going to be there but had we made a trade, we wouldn't even have been rumored to be in discussion with the Wiz for a guy like Kuzma or Rui. There's a reason why there's so much activity around the trade deadline, it's when teams really start to put their cards on the table and take a gamble

Very fair perspective man! Honestly as long as he manages to get something reasonable for him by the deadline, I won't be upset. I just don't want to see him end up sitting on him and then watch him just buy him out so he can go join a contender of his choosing. Crowder choosing to not play really put us in a bind and to not get anything back of value from the situation and the end result becoming a buyout would be pure negligence! Contenders and top tier teams don't just sit on dead salary. They find ways to move it or exchange it for some value. To pay Crowder for just sitting there is more or less rewarding bad choices and a lack of professionalism. And it sends a bad message that you can just choose not to play even while under contract and you'll still get paid for zero contribution. There has to be some level of contractual accountability here!

[Ghost of Kleine]

It sounds like we are planning on sending Crowder to the Bucks. We are just trying to find a third team willing to take Grayson Allen and Jones is probably trying not to send the 2023 1st round pick. I think the most obvious third team will be the Jazz, but Jones doesn't want to send a 1st for Vanderbilt and Beasley. I still think Jones is hoping for Clarkson but Ainge probably wants 2 1st if he is giving up Clarkson AND Vanderbilt.

Suns get -
Jordan Clarkson
Jarred Vanderbilt
Serge Ibaka

Bucks get -
Jae Crowder

Jazz get -
Grayson Allen
Dario Saric
Suns 2023 1st
3 2nds from the Bucks

What is funny if this deal actually went through, Suns salary would stay the same for the remainder of the year, so it wouldn't add any money towards the luxury tax.

You know man, We actually do have other picks besides our 23' 1st we could offer in a trade. It doesn't only/ always have to be our 23' 1st in every trade. After all, how much perceived value should this year's pick actually have to the receiving team IF we're competing, already back to .500 even before Book and others return?? If a team is sending us good player's, then our pick would likely be in the late 20's or the last couple picks of the first round at best?? So there's really not much incentive there anyways. The value of the pick would be elevated by and yield a better return overall under the premise of it being post Paul, and also when our expirings come off theoretically reducing our depth. But I was curious because every trade I have seen you post only offers the 23' 1st but no variances??

[KLEON]

Is there any truth to D.A having veto power over any potential trade?

[Ghost of Kleine]

Is there any truth to D.A having veto power over any potential trade?

Yes, Ayton has veto powers over his trade destination for the entire year or until the summer ( at the very least) I believe. Also Indiana can't trade for him for an entire year either since we matched their offer.

[Ghost of Kleine]

https://www.yardbarker.com/nba/articles/knicks_and_bucks_discussing_trade_to_swap_cam_reddish_for_grayson_allen/s1_16751_38387335

Knicks And Bucks Discussing Trade To Swap Cam Reddish For Grayson Allen

Originally posted on Fadeaway World
By Ishaan Bhattacharya  |  Last updated 1/23/23

The New York Knicks and Milwaukee Bucks are in talks to swap Cam Reddish and Grayson Allen.

“The Milwaukee Bucks were one of several teams to express interest in trading for Reddish. With trade talks surrounding Reddish ongoing, the Knicks have expressed interest in Bucks starter Grayson Allen, a career 39.5 percent three-point shooter, league sources told HoopsHype.” (h/t HoopsHype)

[Frank Lee]

This just in….




James Jones is remodeling his office

[Qwigglez]

Spoiler:

It sounds like we are planning on sending Crowder to the Bucks. We are just trying to find a third team willing to take Grayson Allen and Jones is probably trying not to send the 2023 1st round pick. I think the most obvious third team will be the Jazz, but Jones doesn't want to send a 1st for Vanderbilt and Beasley. I still think Jones is hoping for Clarkson but Ainge probably wants 2 1st if he is giving up Clarkson AND Vanderbilt.

Suns get -
Jordan Clarkson
Jarred Vanderbilt
Serge Ibaka

Bucks get -
Jae Crowder

Jazz get -
Grayson Allen
Dario Saric
Suns 2023 1st
3 2nds from the Bucks

What is funny if this deal actually went through, Suns salary would stay the same for the remainder of the year, so it wouldn't add any money towards the luxury tax.

You know man, We actually do have other picks besides our 23' 1st we could offer in a trade. It doesn't only/ always have to be our 23' 1st in every trade. After all, how much perceived value should this year's pick actually have to the receiving team IF we're competing, already back to .500 even before Book and others return?? If a team is sending us good player's, then our pick would likely be in the late 20's or the last couple picks of the first round at best?? So there's really not much incentive there anyways. The value of the pick would be elevated by and yield a better return overall under the premise of it being post Paul, and also when our expirings come off theoretically reducing our depth. But I was curious because every trade I have seen you post only offers the 23' 1st but no variances??

So I get what you are saying, but both sides typically don't want to trade future picks over ones that they can envision where that projected pick to be at. The uncertainty of how good or bad the Suns would be in 2025 lets say, I don't feel would entice Ainge or any GM to rather have that pick. Combine that, with the Suns having injury concerns now, the Suns could still end up missing the playoffs, or even barely make the playoffs. So a pick in the early teens or even the late teens, or even early 20s is much better than possibly having a pick that is in the 25-30 range in 2025. I imagine, if the Suns were to trade a future pick such as the 2025 pick, they would have conditions on that pick, like top 10 protection. So again, I don't see why a team would prefer a future pick like the 2025 pick over the 2023 pick. Trading picks at the earliest convenience also gives teams more flexibility in roster maneuvering later too.

Also... even if the Suns were to win 70% of their remaining games. They would have a record of 48-34. The Pelicans and Kings, if they were to go .500 the rest of the way they would have a 45-37 record, 43-39 record. The Nuggets and Grizzlies if they went .500 the rest of the season, they would still have a better record than the Suns at 51-31 and 49-33. The Celtics, Sixers, Bucks, Nets, and Cavs if they all went .500 would all still have better record than the Suns too, so that right there is at least 7 teams that barely have to win half of their games and the Suns would have to win 70% of their games and the Suns would still have at best, the 23rd pick in the draft.

[Ghost of Kleine]

https://www.espn.com/radio/play/_/id/35508601

( Around 36:00 in discusses the CBA being still incomplete and not having the updated tax numbers and how it's affecting trades currently) and around 40: 00 in he goes into deeper detail as to the effect it's having on the teams perspectives on making moves!

Brian Windhorst talks about the CBA going on right now ( during the trade deadline) and how the uncertainty of the premised incoming tax penalties changes/ increases instead of a hard cap are really making teams hesitant right now to conduct trades because taking salaries back in deals whilst the CBA and LT changes and penalty changes/ increases are unknown means teams won't know what they're cap for their teams might look like in the coming years.

So these factors are making GM's very hesitant to conduct trades without that knowledge to work with. The suns have these concerns to consider too currently AS WELL AS the complication of teams having reservations about Crowder's value as he's been sitting out for so long and they're concerned about his conditioning and impact timeline.

[sunskerr]

I am fully prepared for absolutely nothing to happen

[lilfishi22]

Even in light of future uncertainty there's 3 things which are certain:
1. We still want to stay competitive (we still have Book)
2. We have no available salary cap room (unless we have an absolute firesale)
3. We need players who we can resign in spite of the cap (bird rights)

Based on this, it still makes sense to add future salary to this team imo.

[Bogyo]

Even in light of future uncertainty there's 3 things which are certain:
1. We still want to stay competitive (we still have Book)
2. We have no available salary cap room (unless we have an absolute firesale)
3. We need players who we can resign in spite of the cap (bird rights)

Based on this, it still makes sense to add future salary to this team imo.

If we stay put, then basically we are capped out for next year, we'll only have like 6 players signed, and MLE (10 mill), bi-annual (6 mill), and maybe some vet mins... That team will be worse than this, with no moves, other than trading DA or Mikal or the Cams.
The corpse of CP ain't taking us anywhere. You kinda have to make moves if you plan on this team being successful in the near future. I just hope the move will not be a "JJ special".

[lilfishi22]

Even in light of future uncertainty there's 3 things which are certain:
1. We still want to stay competitive (we still have Book)
2. We have no available salary cap room (unless we have an absolute firesale)
3. We need players who we can resign in spite of the cap (bird rights)

Based on this, it still makes sense to add future salary to this team imo.

If we stay put, then basically we are capped out for next year, we'll only have like 6 players signed, and MLE (10 mill), bi-annual (6 mill), and maybe some vet mins... That team will be worse than this, with no moves, other than trading DA or Mikal or the Cams.
The corpse of CP ain't taking us anywhere. You kinda have to make moves if you plan on this team being successful in the near future. I just hope the move will not be a "JJ special".

Yes that's right. IMO we should be making moves only if it makes us better going forward ie it's a player that we can envision growing and being part of this team for the next 3-5 years (even if they aren't locked in a contract for that long). That player/s may contribute this season as well and that would be a bonus but I wouldn't be keen to add an old guy just to try and compete on CP3's window.

[Ghost of Kleine]

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[Saberestar]

Terry Rozier, Fred VanVleet and Immanuel Quickley.

All of them have a couple things in common... small and scoring PGs.

But two of them are starting PGs with high salary and the other one (Quickley) is a backup PG with some upside. He is under contract for next year getting $4.2M and then he will be a RFA.

Obviously Quickley is the worst of them but he is the youngest and he is a viable candidate for Crowder.

Quickley + expiring filler for Crowder makes some sense and I would be OK with the trade, but he isn’t my favorite trade target.

[Frank Lee]

Chowder has essentially no value. In a few weeks, he’ll likely be bought out and able to sign on anywhere for the vet minimum. If we had any stones we make his ass sit the yr if no trade….and announce it now. The Dude F-d us. It’s no secret.

As for VanVleet and Rozier, they are going to cost us multiple picks and or contributing players. Then what do you do with CP next yr? Pay him 30 mil??? FreddyV is going to cost close to 30 and ScaryTerry is at 24. They going to be back ups? Or do we have 30mil CP off the bench? Think you trade him next yr?? Or is CP involved a deal yet this yr? (Unlikely unless he wants out too or MattyIsh says trim the fat)

This **** doesn’t make sense and reeks of kicking the can down the road…. Unless something else is in the works. It better be, but then again, I’m leary of who’s painting



My teeter is tottering to bagging this yr, clean house now and do a quick rebuild. Get in the lottery and cross your fingers. That isn’t happening though unless CP finds a suitor. Good luck to us.

[BobbieL]

Terry Rozier, Fred VanVleet and Immanuel Quickley.

All of them have a couple things in common... small and scoring PGs.

But two of them are starting PGs with high salary and the other one (Quickley) is a backup PG with some upside. He is under contract for next year getting $4.2M and then he will be a RFA.

Obviously Quickley is the worst of them but he is the youngest and he is a viable candidate for Crowder.

Quickley + expiring filler for Crowder makes some sense and I would be OK with the trade, but he isn’t my favorite trade target.

I think from a cap perspective - Quickley probably makes the most sense. Reddish could be added to make the math work

I don't want anything to do with FVV as he is not signed

Rozier -- Shamet and Saric works cap wise -- and if the suns are taking that contract, they have to take Shamet. Crowder can also go - they will just buy him out either way. If you add Crowder and Payne, could take back Oubre I guess

But what do you do with Paul? Ride out this year and trade him before his option kicks in so the team acquiring him only has a 15.8m cap hit but the Suns have a longer term deal. I don't see him as your first team PG next year. Stretch him out

[BobbieL]

Chowder has essentially no value. In a few weeks, he’ll likely be bought out and able to sign on anywhere for the vet minimum. If we had any stones we make his ass sit the yr if no trade….and announce it now. The Dude F-d us. It’s no secret.

As for VanVleet and Rozier, they are going to cost us multiple picks and or contributing players. Then what do you do with CP next yr? Pay him 30 mil??? FreddyV is going to cost close to 30 and ScaryTerry is at 24. They going to be back ups? Or do we have 30mil CP off the bench? Think you trade him next yr?? Or is CP involved a deal yet this yr? (Unlikely unless he wants out too or MattyIsh says trim the fat)

This **** doesn’t make sense and reeks of kicking the can down the road…. Unless something else is in the works. It better be, but then again, I’m leary of who’s painting



My teeter is tottering to bagging this yr, clean house now and do a quick rebuild. Get in the lottery and cross your fingers. That isn’t happening though unless CP finds a suitor. Good luck to us.

Rozier is owed some pretty big money - I wonder if the Hornets want to dump the contract or just get the cap savings long term

[Crives]

I have been wanting Rozier since offseason. Might be able to get him for expirings.

[Ghost of Kleine]

I have been wanting Rozier since offseason. Might be able to get him for expirings.

You never know man! And that'd be really cool for us to help boost us up a bit competitively too. But in the reports, they're apparently seeking a first for their players: Rozier, McDaniels, and even strangely enough Hayward despite his contract and injury history. But I suppose it's not uncommon to start at your highest value point initially in negotiations in order to try and extract maximum value for a return. I wonder if they'll come down off those initial target goals as it gets closer to the deadline in interest of additional cap flexibility?

[BobbieL]

I have been wanting Rozier since offseason. Might be able to get him for expirings.

You never know man! And that'd be really cool for us to help boost us up a bit competitively too. But in the reports, they're apparently seeking a first for their players: Rozier, McDaniels, and even strangely enough Hayward despite his contract and injury history. But I suppose it's not uncommon to start at your highest value point initially in negotiations in order to try and extract maximum value for a return. I wonder if they'll come down off those initial target goals as it gets closer to the deadline in interest of additional cap flexibility?

I am not sure they will get a first for Hayward - expriings should be enough for them to save the $30m bucks. And his injury history is a concern as I have thought he would have been a nice fit off the bench to score the ball