The Draft Thread: Ayton Vs Doncic 1

[gaspar]

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[Biff]

I hope we don't draft Ayton.

https://valleyofthesuns.com/2018/05/29/drafting-deandre-ayton-huge-risk-suns/

The fact is, centers aren’t playable in the playoffs anymore. That is why the Warriors, Rockets, and Celtics have all made it to the conference playoffs. Both teams are willing to go small ball and attack other team’s bigs, scoring at will.

You must have missed the rockets game 7, bet they would have loved to have Ayton

Watched the whole game and I doubt it.

[Biff]

I hope we don't draft Ayton.

https://valleyofthesuns.com/2018/05/29/drafting-deandre-ayton-huge-risk-suns/

The fact is, centers aren’t playable in the playoffs anymore. That is why the Warriors, Rockets, and Celtics have all made it to the conference playoffs. Both teams are willing to go small ball and attack other team’s bigs, scoring at will.

You think New Orleans would sit Davis or Philly Embiid?

Philly got waxed by the Celtics so how'd that work out for them?

[Biff]

I hope we don't draft Ayton.

https://valleyofthesuns.com/2018/05/29/drafting-deandre-ayton-huge-risk-suns/

The fact is, centers aren’t playable in the playoffs anymore. That is why the Warriors, Rockets, and Celtics have all made it to the conference playoffs. Both teams are willing to go small ball and attack other team’s bigs, scoring at will.

You think New Orleans would sit Davis or Philly Embiid?

Also, Davis plays more like a wing. I'd have no problems with Ayton if he was comparable to Davis but he doesn't compare to him at all. Ayton doesn't have nearly as good of a handle. He doesn't even have as good of a handle as Cousins. He can play pick and pop and has a good post game. He's not someone that is going to put the ball on the floor and take people off the dribble.

[MrMiyagi]

I hope we don't draft Ayton.

https://valleyofthesuns.com/2018/05/29/drafting-deandre-ayton-huge-risk-suns/

You think New Orleans would sit Davis or Philly Embiid?

Philly got waxed by the Celtics so how'd that work out for them?

"Waxed"? Boston had a 3-point win and a 2-point win. Philly lost that series, but it sure wasn't Joel Embiid's fault. Same with New Orleans and Golden State. Unfortunately, the Pelicans don't have any cap space to help improve their roster. Philly is going to get better and might be the Eastern Conference Champions next season.

[MrMiyagi]

I hope we don't draft Ayton.

https://valleyofthesuns.com/2018/05/29/drafting-deandre-ayton-huge-risk-suns/

You think New Orleans would sit Davis or Philly Embiid?

Also, Davis plays more like a wing. I'd have no problems with Ayton if he was comparable to Davis but he doesn't compare to him at all. Ayton doesn't have nearly as good of a handle. He doesn't even have as good of a handle as Cousins. He can play pick and pop and has a good post game. He's not someone that is going to put the ball on the floor and take people off the dribble.

Who says he needs to take people off the dribble? That's not even close to the most prolific part of Anthony Davis's game. It's a tool he has, sure, but he's not sizing up people to take off the dribble every time down the floor.

[Biff]

You think New Orleans would sit Davis or Philly Embiid?

Philly got waxed by the Celtics so how'd that work out for them?

"Waxed"? Boston had a 3-point win and a 2-point win. Philly lost that series, but it sure wasn't Joel Embiid's fault. Same with New Orleans and Golden State. Unfortunately, the Pelicans don't have any cap space to help improve their roster. Philly is going to get better and might be the Eastern Conference Champions next season.

Embiid is supposedly one of the best centers in the league and Philly still couldn't get by a Boston team missing Irving. In fact they lost 4-1. Simmons not being able to make anything outside 5 feet obviously played a role, but it's also obvious that centers are nowhere near as important as they once were, otherwise Embiid would have had a much greater impact.

[Biff]

You think New Orleans would sit Davis or Philly Embiid?

Also, Davis plays more like a wing. I'd have no problems with Ayton if he was comparable to Davis but he doesn't compare to him at all. Ayton doesn't have nearly as good of a handle. He doesn't even have as good of a handle as Cousins. He can play pick and pop and has a good post game. He's not someone that is going to put the ball on the floor and take people off the dribble.

Who says he needs to take people off the dribble? That's not even close to the most prolific part of Anthony Davis's game. It's a tool he has, sure, but he's not sizing up people to take off the dribble every time down the floor.

Have you been watching these playoffs? What exactly makes you think that having traditional big men is going to be a game changer for any of these teams? Especially one like Ayton who doesn't even look like he's going to be a good defender. He will be exposed badly in the playoffs.

The lineup numbers are striking. Houston’s starters (Harden, Paul, Ariza, Tucker, and Capela) have a net rating of minus-24.7 in 43 minutes in the series. Replace Capela with Gordon and that number shoots up to plus-7.4 in 38 minutes.

Ayton won't be half the defender Capela is, so dude better be Shaq 2.0 if we have any chance of competing in today's game.

[gaspar]

I hope we don't draft Ayton.

https://valleyofthesuns.com/2018/05/29/drafting-deandre-ayton-huge-risk-suns/

You think New Orleans would sit Davis or Philly Embiid?

Philly got waxed by the Celtics so how'd that work out for them?

Embiid was not the reason why the Sixers lost against the Celtics. Sixers NetRtg against the Celtics in playoffs:

Embiid on court: +2.8 in 187 minutes
Embiid off court: -28.1 in 58 minutes

All these big man get run off the court in the play-offs because they aren't that good at basketball. The same can happen with players at any position. In this article Tjarks points out that pure 3-and-D players (in theory tailor-made for today's NBA) can be easily game-plan out of a series.

Taking Doncic over Ayton because you believe that Luka will be a better player is fine. Drafting Doncic because of a silly Wings/Guards>>>Bigs narrative is not the way to go IMO.

[DirtyDez]

Philly lost that series because of late game meltdowns/turnovers. Also Al Horford isn’t some scrub.

[kennydorglas]

Ainge already spotted the best big in this draft.
Smart GM.

[Fo-Real]

I expect Doncic to fall a few picks after we pick Ayton but if Sac actually takes Doncic after us I would attempt to throw them a significant offer for De' Arron Fox. Love that kid, maybe we can give them assets and salary relief maybe since Doncic would need to be a major ball handler decision maker if taken.

[DirtyDez]

Ainge already spotted the best big in this draft.
Smart GM.

Anything you hear about Ainge during draft season is a smokescreen. JJJ to Boston confirmed.

[Biff]

You think New Orleans would sit Davis or Philly Embiid?

Philly got waxed by the Celtics so how'd that work out for them?

Embiid was not the reason why the Sixers lost against the Celtics. Sixers NetRtg against the Celtics in playoffs:

Embiid on court: +2.8 in 187 minutes
Embiid off court: -28.1 in 58 minutes

All these big man get run off the court in the play-offs because they aren't that good at basketball. The same can happen with players at any position. In this article Tjarks points out that pure 3-and-D players (in theory tailor-made for today's NBA) can be easily game-plan out of a series.

Taking Doncic over Ayton because you believe that Luka will be a better player is fine. Drafting Doncic because of a silly Wings/Guards>>>Bigs narrative is not the way to go IMO.

Sure but Embiid is a different player than Ayton. He's a much much better defender and he has a much better face up game. Even with all that, Embiid still wasn't enough of a difference maker. He's obviously Philly's best player but he doesn't have the same kind of impact as an elite wing. Elite wings are simply more valuable than elite big men these days. Davis is recognized as the best big man in the game and he's more of a hybrid wing/big. He can shoot, dribble, drive and pass. He is a huge difference maker because of that. I don't think Ayton is going to be anywhere near as impactful as Davis. And probably not as impact as Embiid either. His offensive skillset is different and he's nowhere near the defender that those 2 are. He can give you 25 and 12 during the regular season but what happens in the playoffs when teams attack him relentlessly in pick and rolls? Unless he can for sure shoot 60% from the field, I don't see him leading a team to the finals.

And Doncic isn't a 3 and D wing. He's a phenomenal passer and playmaker. What he brings to the table fits today's game much better. He hasn't shot the ball from 3 particularly well but I think his shot selection from 3 has been iffy. Tighten up his shot selection and I think he should have no problems becoming a 37-38% shooter from 3. He's an outstanding FT shooter so I think his stroke is just fine.

[Revived]

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This is some ground breaking information here lol.

[Villalobos]

I hope we don't draft Ayton.

https://valleyofthesuns.com/2018/05/29/drafting-deandre-ayton-huge-risk-suns/

The fact is, centers aren’t playable in the playoffs anymore. That is why the Warriors, Rockets, and Celtics have all made it to the conference playoffs. Both teams are willing to go small ball and attack other team’s bigs, scoring at will.

You think New Orleans would sit Davis or Philly Embiid?

if they couldn't play defense, yeah

Suns fans might not have to worry about that problem though. If Ayton can't defend they're not making the playoffs anytime soon anyway.

*prays Koko is a defensive coaching savant*

[Archx]

I hope we don't draft Ayton.

https://valleyofthesuns.com/2018/05/29/drafting-deandre-ayton-huge-risk-suns/

You think New Orleans would sit Davis or Philly Embiid?

if they couldn't play defense, yeah

Suns fans might not have to worry about that problem though. If Ayton can't defend they're not making the playoffs anytime soon anyway.

*prays Koko is a defensive coaching savant*

Well he is not a magician when it comes to defensive schemes but he does have other coaches with him who can help him out. On offense in my opinion he is a master. So i'm 100% sure that he would know how to use Ayton in playoffs vs. smaller lineups. If of course Ayton becomes as good as people here expect him to be.

[thamadkant]

Philly got waxed by the Celtics so how'd that work out for them?

Embiid was not the reason why the Sixers lost against the Celtics. Sixers NetRtg against the Celtics in playoffs:

Embiid on court: +2.8 in 187 minutes
Embiid off court: -28.1 in 58 minutes

All these big man get run off the court in the play-offs because they aren't that good at basketball. The same can happen with players at any position. In this article Tjarks points out that pure 3-and-D players (in theory tailor-made for today's NBA) can be easily game-plan out of a series.

Taking Doncic over Ayton because you believe that Luka will be a better player is fine. Drafting Doncic because of a silly Wings/Guards>>>Bigs narrative is not the way to go IMO.

Sure but Embiid is a different player than Ayton. He's a much much better defender and he has a much better face up game. Even with all that, Embiid still wasn't enough of a difference maker. He's obviously Philly's best player but he doesn't have the same kind of impact as an elite wing. Elite wings are simply more valuable than elite big men these days. Davis is recognized as the best big man in the game and he's more of a hybrid wing/big. He can shoot, dribble, drive and pass. He is a huge difference maker because of that. I don't think Ayton is going to be anywhere near as impactful as Davis. And probably not as impact as Embiid either. His offensive skillset is different and he's nowhere near the defender that those 2 are. He can give you 25 and 12 during the regular season but what happens in the playoffs when teams attack him relentlessly in pick and rolls? Unless he can for sure shoot 60% from the field, I don't see him leading a team to the finals.

And Doncic isn't a 3 and D wing. He's a phenomenal passer and playmaker. What he brings to the table fits today's game much better. He hasn't shot the ball from 3 particularly well but I think his shot selection from 3 has been iffy. Tighten up his shot selection and I think he should have no problems becoming a 37-38% shooter from 3. He's an outstanding FT shooter so I think his stroke is just fine.

Donci would get clamped down by quick long wings in the NBA At the guard position. You need to play him similarly to how 76ers plays Saric.... But with better passing skills.


You act as if Ayton is a scrub center. For a big that played outside defensively a lot he blocked 2 shots.. 1 less block per game than Bamba who defended the paint more.

The bottom line is .... The Suns NEED inside scoring and they need a PG who can shoot 3s and DEFEND.

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

Embiid was not the reason why the Sixers lost against the Celtics. Sixers NetRtg against the Celtics in playoffs:

Embiid on court: +2.8 in 187 minutes
Embiid off court: -28.1 in 58 minutes

All these big man get run off the court in the play-offs because they aren't that good at basketball. The same can happen with players at any position. In this article Tjarks points out that pure 3-and-D players (in theory tailor-made for today's NBA) can be easily game-plan out of a series.

Taking Doncic over Ayton because you believe that Luka will be a better player is fine. Drafting Doncic because of a silly Wings/Guards>>>Bigs narrative is not the way to go IMO.

Sure but Embiid is a different player than Ayton. He's a much much better defender and he has a much better face up game. Even with all that, Embiid still wasn't enough of a difference maker. He's obviously Philly's best player but he doesn't have the same kind of impact as an elite wing. Elite wings are simply more valuable than elite big men these days. Davis is recognized as the best big man in the game and he's more of a hybrid wing/big. He can shoot, dribble, drive and pass. He is a huge difference maker because of that. I don't think Ayton is going to be anywhere near as impactful as Davis. And probably not as impact as Embiid either. His offensive skillset is different and he's nowhere near the defender that those 2 are. He can give you 25 and 12 during the regular season but what happens in the playoffs when teams attack him relentlessly in pick and rolls? Unless he can for sure shoot 60% from the field, I don't see him leading a team to the finals.

And Doncic isn't a 3 and D wing. He's a phenomenal passer and playmaker. What he brings to the table fits today's game much better. He hasn't shot the ball from 3 particularly well but I think his shot selection from 3 has been iffy. Tighten up his shot selection and I think he should have no problems becoming a 37-38% shooter from 3. He's an outstanding FT shooter so I think his stroke is just fine.

Donci would get clamped down by quick long wings in the NBA At the guard position. You need to play him similarly to how 76ers plays Saric.... But with better passing skills.


You act as if Ayton is a scrub center. For a big that played outside defensively a lot he blocked 2 shots.. 1 less block per game than Bamba who defended the paint more.

The bottom line is .... The Suns NEED inside scoring and they need a PG who can shoot 3s and DEFEND.

Doncic ain't getting "clamped down" by anyone at the next level. Too big, too smart, too skilled.

I'm taking Ayton because I think his ceiling is higher than Embiid's, word is that his work ethic is good, and I've said for a long time now that the team's biggest problem is the lack of any interior scoring. But Doncic's probably an equally good pick, or just barely behind Ayton as a prospect. Don't need to crap all over the other guy to defend your preference.

[Moneyballer]

We look at the teams that have done so well with guards/wings that we forget to look at the teams that have failed as well.

Toronto and Portland’s best players are their perimeter players. They had such great regular seasons and exceeded expectations. They were both favorites going into their series. Both teams got swept.

Both Toronto and Portland’s rosters haven’t seen much player turnover either. They’ve had time to play together and gel, but now, one has to wonder if they’ll need to make major changes to get to that next level.

I’m not even trying to put down the idea of drafting Doncic. I just hate this argument that we should do it because it’s the way things are trending. I don’t think it’s certain that it’s a formula for success. Even though I like both Ayton and Doncic, watching Houston miss 20+ straight 3pt attempts and relying on their offensively-challenged center to get them easy buckets keeps me firmly in the Ayton court.