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Game 36: Phoenix Suns (12-23) @ Sacramento Kings (12-20)

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Re: Game 36: Phoenix Suns (12-23) @ Sacramento Kings (12-20) 

Post#241 » by AtheJ415 » Sun Jan 3, 2016 1:11 am

RunDogGun wrote:
AtheJ415 wrote:
RunDogGun wrote:Save us from what, playing young guys that aren't good defenders? I think many are confused about Thibs. If hired, you will see a steady dose of Chandler, Tucker, and Price. :nod:


That's why you move all 3 of them. But either way, I'm fine not hiring Thibs. What I'm 100% sure of is we will not win much with Hornacek in charge of the defense. Established, elite defenders don't defend once they join this team.

So the incoming coach has no defenders to work with? Why take that job? :crazy:

Which established defenders are you referring to?


Tyson and Bledsoe.

And yeah, that's why I said I'm fine not hiring Thibs. If what it takes to get Thibs is putting 3 one way, aging guys, who shouldn't be seeing the minutes they are now, on the court, then don't hire him.
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Re: Game 36: Phoenix Suns (12-23) @ Sacramento Kings (12-20) 

Post#242 » by saintEscaton » Sun Jan 3, 2016 1:12 am

bwgood77 wrote:
saintEscaton wrote:Convince JVG to come out retirement and poach either Walton or Udoka to be associate head coach. But who would want to inherit this smoldering mess?


Why would associate head coaches for two of the best teams in nba history (ok, I don't know Udoka's official title, but whatever he is), leave to be an associate coach of this dysfunctional organization?


Yeah you're right. But one can dream. They would need to be offered the main gig to even consider jumping aboard the sinking Titanic
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Re: Game 36: Phoenix Suns (12-23) @ Sacramento Kings (12-20) 

Post#243 » by RunDogGun » Sun Jan 3, 2016 1:12 am

AtheJ415 wrote:
RunDogGun wrote:
AtheJ415 wrote:

He still has value. Nobody loses all value after half a season when they're in their 5th year. Not absent massive injuries.

I just wonder how long we sit here blaming each and every acquisition we make for why they can't perform on this team before we start questioning the scheme, because this goes beyond Knight. We can't find a way to use Chandler to his strengths. Couldn't find a way to use Dragic to his strengths once we added IT. Couldn't find a way to use TJ until **** hit the fan this year even though it's pretty obvious to me he should've seen more minutes this year. Same for Booker. Can't find a way to play defense with a lineup of Chandler, Tucker, Bledsoe, Knight, and Leuer. Knight is the only bad defender of that group. I mean, we have proven guys who can't play on our team once we acquire them.

But our defense looked good at the beginning of the year and the starting lineup was the same, except we had a no effort Morris instead of Leuer. So please explain?


At the very, very beginning it did, but it fell off quite a bit since. I would argue that it's a function of small sample size more than most things, and also the fact that he hadn't lost the team yet.


I think we compensated for a lazy Morris, and did a good job of it. Mirza wasn't in game shape at the beginning either. Many things went south when all of our guys ran into each other and the Clips players. Price wasn't the same for at least two weeks after he ran into Smith, and we were still trying to play Kieff to get his value up. We should have benched him from the start of the season, but oh well.
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Re: Game 36: Phoenix Suns (12-23) @ Sacramento Kings (12-20) 

Post#244 » by AtheJ415 » Sun Jan 3, 2016 1:13 am

kennydorglas wrote:Adrian Wojnarowski ‏@WojVerticalNBA 5 min
Phoenix looks like a team that fired its defensive coordinator, Mike Longabardi. He'll be in demand this spring. NBA coaches know his value.


hahahahahaha
i'm amazed



Maybe we should've let him position himself for the head coaching spot, but frankly, our defense didn't improve under Mike all year long. It's the #1 reason we are so bad this season. He deserved to be fired imo. People good at their jobs deserve to be fired all the time, and he was one of those imo.
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Re: Game 36: Phoenix Suns (12-23) @ Sacramento Kings (12-20) 

Post#245 » by Puff » Sun Jan 3, 2016 1:14 am

Maybe Markieff not our only problem
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Re: Game 36: Phoenix Suns (12-23) @ Sacramento Kings (12-20) 

Post#246 » by RunDogGun » Sun Jan 3, 2016 1:15 am

AtheJ415 wrote:
RunDogGun wrote:
AtheJ415 wrote:
That's why you move all 3 of them. But either way, I'm fine not hiring Thibs. What I'm 100% sure of is we will not win much with Hornacek in charge of the defense. Established, elite defenders don't defend once they join this team.

So the incoming coach has no defenders to work with? Why take that job? :crazy:

Which established defenders are you referring to?


Tyson and Bledsoe.

And yeah, that's why I said I'm fine not hiring Thibs. If what it takes to get Thibs is putting 3 one way, aging guys, who shouldn't be seeing the minutes they are now, on the court, then don't hire him.

Everyone is aging, that's how it works. But your opinion of them "shouldn't be seeing minutes", is silly. They are all three still good defenders.
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Re: Game 36: Phoenix Suns (12-23) @ Sacramento Kings (12-20) 

Post#247 » by RunDogGun » Sun Jan 3, 2016 1:17 am

Puff wrote:Maybe Markieff not our only problem

He's the big tumor. Cut him out, and see how the team responds. It's just too bad that he played so piss poor on purpose. He hurt his trade value, so now we are stuck with him. We should send him home for good, him being on the bench, bus, plane, or locker room has hurt this team.
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Re: Game 36: Phoenix Suns (12-23) @ Sacramento Kings (12-20) 

Post#248 » by bwgood77 » Sun Jan 3, 2016 1:18 am

AtheJ415 wrote:
kennydorglas wrote:Adrian Wojnarowski ‏@WojVerticalNBA 5 min
Phoenix looks like a team that fired its defensive coordinator, Mike Longabardi. He'll be in demand this spring. NBA coaches know his value.


hahahahahaha
i'm amazed



Maybe we should've let him position himself for the head coaching spot, but frankly, our defense didn't improve under Mike all year long. It's the #1 reason we are so bad this season. He deserved to be fired imo. People good at their jobs deserve to be fired all the time, and he was one of those imo.


Especially if he was undermining Hornacek. I've dealt with this in the workplace before, and if you have people second or third on the heirarchy talking bad about the coach to players or saying they don't agree with him to players, that creates a toxic situation where people start losing respect for one or the other. If it's Longabardi talking to Goodwin or Morris about not liking a Hornacek decision, they probably lose respect for Hornacek. If Longabardi talks to Chandler or the more standup guys, they probably lose respect for Longabardi. It's a lose lose.

I think that created a big problem with our defense.
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Re: Game 36: Phoenix Suns (12-23) @ Sacramento Kings (12-20) 

Post#249 » by AtheJ415 » Sun Jan 3, 2016 1:19 am

RunDogGun wrote:
AtheJ415 wrote:
RunDogGun wrote:So the incoming coach has no defenders to work with? Why take that job? :crazy:

Which established defenders are you referring to?


Tyson and Bledsoe.

And yeah, that's why I said I'm fine not hiring Thibs. If what it takes to get Thibs is putting 3 one way, aging guys, who shouldn't be seeing the minutes they are now, on the court, then don't hire him.

Everyone is aging, that's how it works. But your opinion of them "shouldn't be seeing minutes", is silly. They are all three still good defenders.


Bledsoe's 26. He's entering his prime, not aging. And characterizing what I'm saying as they "shouldn't be seeing minutes" is silly. I said they shouldn't be seeing the minutes they are. What that means is they should be playing less, not that they shouldn't be playing at all. Also, Price is not a good defender. He is a pesky defender who plays with effort, but does moronic things like pressure a non-shooting but surprisingly good driver in Kendall Marshall. He is not the high IQ guy you'd expect a 15 year or whatever he is vet to be defensively. Tucker is the only one I'd call a really good defender this year. We are 13 points worse per 100 possessions with Tyson on the court defensively as of 2 games ago, and that number probably has gone up.
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Re: Game 36: Phoenix Suns (12-23) @ Sacramento Kings (12-20) 

Post#250 » by Cutter » Sun Jan 3, 2016 1:19 am

Puff wrote:Maybe Markieff not our only problem

You sir are correct.
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Re: Game 36: Phoenix Suns (12-23) @ Sacramento Kings (12-20) 

Post#251 » by letsgosuns » Sun Jan 3, 2016 1:23 am

Some fans might not realize this but what is happening right now is the best thing that could happen to this organization.

Having a top pick in the draft does one of two things. It allows you to either draft a player with star potential (obviously) or use the pick to trade for a superstar. Everyone keeps saying the team is desperate for a superstar. Well a top three pick is the kind of asset that gets it done in today's NBA. I do not think the Suns would trade their pick this year but it is a possibility.
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Re: Game 36: Phoenix Suns (12-23) @ Sacramento Kings (12-20) 

Post#252 » by bwgood77 » Sun Jan 3, 2016 1:23 am

AtheJ415 wrote:
RunDogGun wrote:
Cutter wrote:Losing never looks good from a passionate fans perspective. Hornacek is starting to develop Warren and Booker by giving then heavy heavy minutes. Having Leuer or Mirza play the C is not stupid, it's perfectly smart based on matchups. We have a certain style of play that we run by spreading the floor, taking a lot of 3's plus guard penetration and dishing to the perimeter. We started off decently the first part of the season, but obviously the wheels have fallen off and we are in young player development mode.

I personally am neutral on keeping Hornacek. Firing him and replacing him with another coach isnt going to fix anything. I am of the opinion our problems are talent level related, not coaching related.

We have a consistency issue. I'm not sure if it confidence or what, but we have a lot of guys that will keep chucking when they can't hit anything, and we don't get the ball to guys who are on fire.



We have an offense that is incredibly easy to adjust to. Sink in on the roll man when it's Chandler. Help off Tucker. If the roll man is a shooter (Leuer or Tele), play the pop and once the PG drives, everyone play the passing lanes and get a steal based off of any of the remaining motionless players. Our guards have to get better making decisions and our bigs need to expect the ball more often, but make no mistake, this offense accumulates turnovers, can't get assists, and goes through constant deadspells, in large part of its own doing. This motionless offense, particularly when you have a non-shooter or 2 on the court, is a disaster waiting to happen.

We've been at the bottom of the NBA in assists during Horancek's entire tenure despite playing more possessions each game, and it's not a coincidence.


That's because we put a bunch of scoring point guards on the team who dominate the ball. Our best passers are probably Booker, Warren and Leuer, and they barely touch the ball because Knight resorts to tendencies as does Bledsoe. I seriously doubt Hornacek is telling them to dribble for 20 seconds and then try and jack up a long too, especially if contested.
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Re: Game 36: Phoenix Suns (12-23) @ Sacramento Kings (12-20) 

Post#253 » by RunDogGun » Sun Jan 3, 2016 1:24 am

AtheJ415 wrote:
RunDogGun wrote:
AtheJ415 wrote:
Tyson and Bledsoe.

And yeah, that's why I said I'm fine not hiring Thibs. If what it takes to get Thibs is putting 3 one way, aging guys, who shouldn't be seeing the minutes they are now, on the court, then don't hire him.

Everyone is aging, that's how it works. But your opinion of them "shouldn't be seeing minutes", is silly. They are all three still good defenders.


Bledsoe's 26. He's entering his prime, not aging. And characterizing what I'm saying as they "shouldn't be seeing minutes" is silly. I said they shouldn't be seeing the minutes they are. What that means is they should be playing less, not that they shouldn't be playing at all. Also, Price is not a good defender. He is a pesky defender who plays with effort, but does moronic things like pressure a non-shooting but surprisingly good driver in Kendall Marshall. He is not the high IQ guy you'd expect a 15 year or whatever he is vet to be defensively. Tucker is the only one I'd call a really good defender this year. We are 13 points worse per 100 possessions with Tyson on the court defensively as of 2 games ago, and that number probably has gone up.

Bledsoe wasn't an elete defender when he got here, and Tyson was not the same player he was when he won the DPOY. Price is a good defender, and he has been a good defender most of his TEN years in the league. All of them aren't playing huge minutes, so I really don't know what you expect. Again, your stat doesn't take into account that he(Chandler) hasn't been the same before the injury until the last two games or so.
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Re: Game 36: Phoenix Suns (12-23) @ Sacramento Kings (12-20) 

Post#254 » by JMac1 » Sun Jan 3, 2016 1:25 am

If anyone ever compares Booker to Reddick again............. :crazy:
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Re: Game 36: Phoenix Suns (12-23) @ Sacramento Kings (12-20) 

Post#255 » by bwgood77 » Sun Jan 3, 2016 1:26 am

letsgosuns wrote:Some fans might not realize this but what is happening right now is the best thing that could happen to this organization.

Having a top pick in the draft does one of two things. It allows you to either draft a player with star potential (obviously) or use the pick to trade for a superstar. Everyone keeps saying the team is desperate for a superstar. Well a top three pick is the kind of asset that gets it done in today's NBA. I do not think the Suns would trade their pick this year but it is a possibility.


I agree. At this point it is the best. Even though I always pull for them to win, giving the young guys burn and getting a top pick will help. I don't think we trade it if it's top 3. We should not trade it because the only sure way to add potential talent is in the draft, particularly now that everyone will have cap space.
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Re: Game 36: Phoenix Suns (12-23) @ Sacramento Kings (12-20) 

Post#256 » by RunDogGun » Sun Jan 3, 2016 1:28 am

bwgood77 wrote:
letsgosuns wrote:Some fans might not realize this but what is happening right now is the best thing that could happen to this organization.

Having a top pick in the draft does one of two things. It allows you to either draft a player with star potential (obviously) or use the pick to trade for a superstar. Everyone keeps saying the team is desperate for a superstar. Well a top three pick is the kind of asset that gets it done in today's NBA. I do not think the Suns would trade their pick this year but it is a possibility.


I agree. At this point it is the best. Even though I always pull for them to win, giving the young guys burn and getting a top pick will help. I don't think we trade it if it's top 3. We should not trade it because the only sure way to add potential talent is in the draft, particularly now that everyone will have cap space.

Well you could nab a player stuck behind a star with the right trade.
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Re: Game 36: Phoenix Suns (12-23) @ Sacramento Kings (12-20) 

Post#257 » by saintEscaton » Sun Jan 3, 2016 1:30 am

#DrownForBrown #Skimmin'ForSimmons #PilgrimForIngram #FenderBendeForBendar Ok I give up
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Re: Game 36: Phoenix Suns (12-23) @ Sacramento Kings (12-20) 

Post#258 » by AtheJ415 » Sun Jan 3, 2016 1:34 am

bwgood77 wrote:
AtheJ415 wrote:
RunDogGun wrote:We have a consistency issue. I'm not sure if it confidence or what, but we have a lot of guys that will keep chucking when they can't hit anything, and we don't get the ball to guys who are on fire.



We have an offense that is incredibly easy to adjust to. Sink in on the roll man when it's Chandler. Help off Tucker. If the roll man is a shooter (Leuer or Tele), play the pop and once the PG drives, everyone play the passing lanes and get a steal based off of any of the remaining motionless players. Our guards have to get better making decisions and our bigs need to expect the ball more often, but make no mistake, this offense accumulates turnovers, can't get assists, and goes through constant deadspells, in large part of its own doing. This motionless offense, particularly when you have a non-shooter or 2 on the court, is a disaster waiting to happen.

We've been at the bottom of the NBA in assists during Horancek's entire tenure despite playing more possessions each game, and it's not a coincidence.


That's because we put a bunch of scoring point guards on the team who dominate the ball. Our best passers are probably Booker, Warren and Leuer, and they barely touch the ball because Knight resorts to tendencies as does Bledsoe. I seriously doubt Hornacek is telling them to dribble for 20 seconds and then try and jack up a long too, especially if contested.


They would have to move to get the ball in good positions to receive passes in scoring positions. In this offense, that doesn't happen. You can blame the guards all you want, but look at our physical movement and it is the worst I've ever seen from a pro ball team. Our initial passes are also purposeless. He had IT, Dragic, and Bledsoe all on the court at the same time last year and couldn't get assists, and I realize those are all scorers first, but that's better passing than most teams' 1-3 spots, and even then we were dead last in assists despite being 1st or 2nd in pace. This spans beyond our acquisition of Knight, and with basically 1.5 roster turnovers in those 3 years.

When Booker and Warren score, they're either going one on one or they are getting a kick out off of a drive. That is our entire offense, and that's the problem. Jeff Teague is no more a passer and every bit the scorer as Bledsoe, for instance, and Atlanta still doesn't use that as an excuse not to run plays for Korver, Milsap, and Horford off the ball. We should at least be attempting to do that. If I saw a lot of movement and our guards just not passing it to these open guys, I'd be more inclined to agree with you, but aside from maybe 3 times a game where they drive and instead take a contested 2 over kicking it to an open 3, I'm not seeing those missed guys. Instead, I'm seeing an offense that can't get anyone open unless somebody with the ball beats their guy 1 on 1.
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Re: Game 36: Phoenix Suns (12-23) @ Sacramento Kings (12-20) 

Post#259 » by rsavaj » Sun Jan 3, 2016 1:38 am

Booker receives heavy minutes, tank moves on. Check and check.
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Re: Game 36: Phoenix Suns (12-23) @ Sacramento Kings (12-20) 

Post#260 » by AtheJ415 » Sun Jan 3, 2016 1:43 am

RunDogGun wrote:
AtheJ415 wrote:
RunDogGun wrote:Everyone is aging, that's how it works. But your opinion of them "shouldn't be seeing minutes", is silly. They are all three still good defenders.


Bledsoe's 26. He's entering his prime, not aging. And characterizing what I'm saying as they "shouldn't be seeing minutes" is silly. I said they shouldn't be seeing the minutes they are. What that means is they should be playing less, not that they shouldn't be playing at all. Also, Price is not a good defender. He is a pesky defender who plays with effort, but does moronic things like pressure a non-shooting but surprisingly good driver in Kendall Marshall. He is not the high IQ guy you'd expect a 15 year or whatever he is vet to be defensively. Tucker is the only one I'd call a really good defender this year. We are 13 points worse per 100 possessions with Tyson on the court defensively as of 2 games ago, and that number probably has gone up.

Bledsoe wasn't an elete defender when he got here, and Tyson was not the same player he was when he won the DPOY. Price is a good defender, and he has been a good defender most of his TEN years in the league. All of them aren't playing huge minutes, so I really don't know what you expect. Again, your stat doesn't take into account that he(Chandler) hasn't been the same before the injury until the last two games or so.



Tyson had his highest WS ever last year (10.3). Top 5 in the NBA IIRC. He has gone from a WS/48 of .216 to 0.094 this season, and his DPM has halved. He was every bit the DPOY caliber guy as he ever has been last season. And the last 2 games our defensive numbers with Tyson aren't going to look very good. Tyson has fallen off a cliff. And I suppose you could put all of it on age, but I don't. Our team as a whole has not done anything defensively to make me believe Tyson's lack of defense is an outlier. Seriously, is there one thing Hornacek has done that warrants the benefit of the doubt here when it comes to defense?

Price's defense is not good. He's a career -0.6 DBPM guy. His teams have literally defended better over his tenure when he was sitting. He's a better defensive player than offensive player, but that isn't saying much. His D rating this year is the same as TJ Warren, and barely better than Knight and Booker.

Even this year, a year where Bledsoe's D has been bad, he's by far the best defender of our guards, including Price, at least according to the numbers, and that shouldn't be when he's playing with Tyson and Knight, who have been arguably our worst defenders on the year.

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