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Game 12: Suns @ Nuggets

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Re: Game 12: Suns @ Nuggets 

Post#241 » by OnceUponADime » Thu Nov 17, 2016 6:51 am

darealjuice wrote:We draft 2 of the rawest, youngest players in the draft that we knew immediately would be long term projects, and 12 games into the season everyone is already flipping their **** because they aren't playing much lol. It's pretty mind boggling. Chriss was the least developed player taken in the lottery, and Bender might have been the 2nd least developed, these guys are going to take time to get where they need to be to see significant playing time.

Do you realize that Bender and Chriss are PLAYING BETTER than the guys playing more minutes than them?

Nobody here is saying that they should play because their rookies...EVERYONE is saying that they should play because their better at the young their at now than Tucker is at the age he's at.

How does it feel knowing that 19 year old Chriss and Bender are better than 32 year old Tucker? And on most nights, 20 year old Ulis is better than 31 year old LB and 24 year old Knight.

Nobody is saying the kids should play because their young...everyone is saying the kids should play because the kids are already better than the scrub veterans we have.
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Re: Game 12: Suns @ Nuggets 

Post#242 » by Jdiddy701 » Thu Nov 17, 2016 6:53 am

That was the worst game so far to watch.. the effort for the entire team was sad. Bledsoe was by the far the worst player on the court.


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Re: Game 12: Suns @ Nuggets 

Post#243 » by darealjuice » Thu Nov 17, 2016 7:00 am

GoranTragic wrote:
darealjuice wrote:We draft 2 of the rawest, youngest players in the draft that we knew immediately would be long term projects, and 12 games into the season everyone is already flipping their **** because they aren't playing much lol. It's pretty mind boggling. Chriss was the least developed player taken in the lottery, and Bender might have been the 2nd least developed, these guys are going to take time to get where they need to be to see significant playing time.

If you look at these kids without your "Rookies can do no wrong" glasses on, you'll see that these kids aren't ready to get 20+ minutes a game. Chriss can't play a lick of defense, turns the ball over like crazy despite having low usage, doesn't offer much on offense outside of the occasional open jump shot or highlight dunk, and still took over the starting job, of which he is undoubtably a bottom 5 starting PF in terms of immediate skill level. Bender has shown flashes of brilliance in limited minutes because he has a high basketball IQ, which excites everyone including me, but he doesn't have the physicality and confidence to be playing extended minutes at his natural position or the raw athleticism to compensate for it, and when we play him out of position on the perimeter he is ineffective because he just floats around the perimeter waiting for a kick out to catch and shoot because he's not strong enough or quick enough to take advantage of small forwards off the bounce yet.

I'm not saying PJ (aka the only guy everyone is talking about when they say vets are taking rookie minutes) has been performing significantly better thus far, because he's sucked too, but is it really hard to under why the guy that just lost his starting job to another one of our young guys prior to this season and has worked his ass off for this organization for years is getting playing time over a rookie that isn't physically ready to compete yet?

Be patient, the real development for Bender and Chriss isn't going to come from an extra 5-10 minutes on the court, it'll come from hours in the gym working on their game.


What the ****? On what planet do Chriss/Bender/Ulis become better players when we play Tucker/Len/etc? I understand Chandler (rebounding/defense), Dudley (shooting) and Barbosa (speed/shooting). Tucker should be sitting on the bench until we need a defensive play near end game. Len is the most worthless defender on this team and has shown that he is pretty much Archie 2.0.

Meanwhile other teams like the Lakers are playing their youth. Get a clue and stop with the excuses. Watson is an idiot that doesn't understand how to developer our youth. Period.


Jesus Christ, do I have to spell it for you? PLAYING TIME DOES NOT EQUAL DEVELOPMENT. I don't know if you've ever played competitive basketball in your life, but players get better putting in work in practice and spending hours in the gym after, not because they're getting forced into minutes despite not being ready for it. That **** makes zero difference, hell it can even kill their confidence when they're getting dominated on both sides of the floor by grown ass men.

Other teams like the Lakers and who??? You're acting like Brandon Ingram wasn't arguably the best player coming into this draft, and the 2 guys we draft weren't 2 of the rawest players taken in the lottery. Maybe you should get a clue with how development actually happens and quit bitching about guys that aren't good enough to be on the court not getting minutes. Period.
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Re: Game 12: Suns @ Nuggets 

Post#244 » by darealjuice » Thu Nov 17, 2016 7:18 am

OnceUponADime wrote:
darealjuice wrote:We draft 2 of the rawest, youngest players in the draft that we knew immediately would be long term projects, and 12 games into the season everyone is already flipping their **** because they aren't playing much lol. It's pretty mind boggling. Chriss was the least developed player taken in the lottery, and Bender might have been the 2nd least developed, these guys are going to take time to get where they need to be to see significant playing time.

Do you realize that Bender and Chriss are PLAYING BETTER than the guys playing more minutes than them?

Nobody here is saying that they should play because their rookies...EVERYONE is saying that they should play because their better at the young their at now than Tucker is at the age he's at.

How does it feel knowing that 19 year old Chriss and Bender are better than 32 year old Tucker? And on most nights, 20 year old Ulis is better than 31 year old LB and 24 year old Knight.

Nobody is saying the kids should play because their young...everyone is saying the kids should play because the kids are already better than the scrub veterans we have.


This is literally exactly what I'm talking about, the "Rookies Can Do No Wrong" glasses in full effect. You could literally not find a single legitimate metric where Bender and Chriss are outperforming PJ Tucker. I challenge you to do it, please, prove me wrong. OBPM, DBPM, BPM, VORP, WS/48, PER, take your pick, Tucker is outdoing both of them in every single advanced stat there is by a significant margin. This place focuses so much on the good of the rookies and completely ignores their faults, while focusing solely on the faults of our veterans and ignoring the good that they do, it's ridiculous. I'm done though.
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Re: Game 12: Suns @ Nuggets 

Post#245 » by DaleyBlind » Thu Nov 17, 2016 7:33 am

darealjuice wrote:
OnceUponADime wrote:
darealjuice wrote:We draft 2 of the rawest, youngest players in the draft that we knew immediately would be long term projects, and 12 games into the season everyone is already flipping their **** because they aren't playing much lol. It's pretty mind boggling. Chriss was the least developed player taken in the lottery, and Bender might have been the 2nd least developed, these guys are going to take time to get where they need to be to see significant playing time.

Do you realize that Bender and Chriss are PLAYING BETTER than the guys playing more minutes than them?

Nobody here is saying that they should play because their rookies...EVERYONE is saying that they should play because their better at the young their at now than Tucker is at the age he's at.

How does it feel knowing that 19 year old Chriss and Bender are better than 32 year old Tucker? And on most nights, 20 year old Ulis is better than 31 year old LB and 24 year old Knight.

Nobody is saying the kids should play because their young...everyone is saying the kids should play because the kids are already better than the scrub veterans we have.


This is literally exactly what I'm talking about, the "Rookies Can Do No Wrong" glasses in full effect. You could literally not find a single legitimate metric where Bender and Chriss are outperforming PJ Tucker. I challenge you to do it, please, prove me wrong. OBPM, DBPM, BPM, VORP, WS/48, PER, take your pick, Tucker is outdoing both of them in every single advanced stat there is by a significant margin. This place focuses so much on the good of the rookies and completely ignores their faults, while focusing solely on the faults of our veterans and ignoring the good that they do, it's ridiculous. I'm done though.


What good is PJ Tucker doing for us and our future?? explain that to me.
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Re: Game 12: Suns @ Nuggets 

Post#246 » by LacosteM » Thu Nov 17, 2016 7:34 am

darealjuice wrote:
GoranTragic wrote:
darealjuice wrote:We draft 2 of the rawest, youngest players in the draft that we knew immediately would be long term projects, and 12 games into the season everyone is already flipping their **** because they aren't playing much lol. It's pretty mind boggling. Chriss was the least developed player taken in the lottery, and Bender might have been the 2nd least developed, these guys are going to take time to get where they need to be to see significant playing time.

If you look at these kids without your "Rookies can do no wrong" glasses on, you'll see that these kids aren't ready to get 20+ minutes a game. Chriss can't play a lick of defense, turns the ball over like crazy despite having low usage, doesn't offer much on offense outside of the occasional open jump shot or highlight dunk, and still took over the starting job, of which he is undoubtably a bottom 5 starting PF in terms of immediate skill level. Bender has shown flashes of brilliance in limited minutes because he has a high basketball IQ, which excites everyone including me, but he doesn't have the physicality and confidence to be playing extended minutes at his natural position or the raw athleticism to compensate for it, and when we play him out of position on the perimeter he is ineffective because he just floats around the perimeter waiting for a kick out to catch and shoot because he's not strong enough or quick enough to take advantage of small forwards off the bounce yet.

I'm not saying PJ (aka the only guy everyone is talking about when they say vets are taking rookie minutes) has been performing significantly better thus far, because he's sucked too, but is it really hard to under why the guy that just lost his starting job to another one of our young guys prior to this season and has worked his ass off for this organization for years is getting playing time over a rookie that isn't physically ready to compete yet?

Be patient, the real development for Bender and Chriss isn't going to come from an extra 5-10 minutes on the court, it'll come from hours in the gym working on their game.


What the ****? On what planet do Chriss/Bender/Ulis become better players when we play Tucker/Len/etc? I understand Chandler (rebounding/defense), Dudley (shooting) and Barbosa (speed/shooting). Tucker should be sitting on the bench until we need a defensive play near end game. Len is the most worthless defender on this team and has shown that he is pretty much Archie 2.0.

Meanwhile other teams like the Lakers are playing their youth. Get a clue and stop with the excuses. Watson is an idiot that doesn't understand how to developer our youth. Period.


Jesus Christ, do I have to spell it for you? PLAYING TIME DOES NOT EQUAL DEVELOPMENT. I don't know if you've ever played competitive basketball in your life, but players get better putting in work in practice and spending hours in the gym after, not because they're getting forced into minutes despite not being ready for it. That **** makes zero difference, hell it can even kill their confidence when they're getting dominated on both sides of the floor by grown ass men.

Other teams like the Lakers and who??? You're acting like Brandon Ingram wasn't arguably the best player coming into this draft, and the 2 guys we draft weren't 2 of the rawest players taken in the lottery. Maybe you should get a clue with how development actually happens and quit bitching about guys that aren't good enough to be on the court not getting minutes. Period.


And maybe you should quit acting so condescending towards others when trying to defend your flawed narrative. Practice makes perfect sure, but you're underrating the importance of playing time. Even if the rookies are in for just 10 mins, they're learning through a real in-game experiences and are constantly finding their game.

As for Bender, what he lacks in athleticism and stregnth, he compensates with lateral quickness and high bbiq. Either way he's spending more time defending the perimiter than protecting the rim, and he's doing a damn fine job doing so. And as for his offense he's at the stage where he's more perimiter oriented player and I don't see a problem with that. He did well on his c&s opportunities and has made couple of baskets from putbacks and cuts. He'll start doing more damage down low when he adds stregnth. In his limited time he showed he can impact the game. Just for his ability to play solid defense and hit c&s 3's he should have his spot in the rotation instead of declining Tucker.
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Re: Game 12: Suns @ Nuggets 

Post#247 » by AtheJ415 » Thu Nov 17, 2016 7:47 am

LacosteM wrote:
darealjuice wrote:
GoranTragic wrote:
What the ****? On what planet do Chriss/Bender/Ulis become better players when we play Tucker/Len/etc? I understand Chandler (rebounding/defense), Dudley (shooting) and Barbosa (speed/shooting). Tucker should be sitting on the bench until we need a defensive play near end game. Len is the most worthless defender on this team and has shown that he is pretty much Archie 2.0.

Meanwhile other teams like the Lakers are playing their youth. Get a clue and stop with the excuses. Watson is an idiot that doesn't understand how to developer our youth. Period.


Jesus Christ, do I have to spell it for you? PLAYING TIME DOES NOT EQUAL DEVELOPMENT. I don't know if you've ever played competitive basketball in your life, but players get better putting in work in practice and spending hours in the gym after, not because they're getting forced into minutes despite not being ready for it. That **** makes zero difference, hell it can even kill their confidence when they're getting dominated on both sides of the floor by grown ass men.

Other teams like the Lakers and who??? You're acting like Brandon Ingram wasn't arguably the best player coming into this draft, and the 2 guys we draft weren't 2 of the rawest players taken in the lottery. Maybe you should get a clue with how development actually happens and quit bitching about guys that aren't good enough to be on the court not getting minutes. Period.


And maybe you should quit acting so condescending towards others when trying to defend your flawed narrative. Practice makes perfect sure, but you're underrating the importance of playing time. Even if the rookies are in for just 10 mins, they're learning through a real in-game experiences and are constantly finding their game.

As for Bender, what he lacks in athleticism and stregnth, he compensates with lateral quickness and high bbiq. Either way he's spending more time defending the perimiter than protecting the rim, and he's doing a damn fine job doing so. And as for his offense he's at the stage where he's more perimiter oriented player and I don't see a problem with that. He did well on his c&s opportunities and has made couple of baskets from putbacks and cuts. He'll start doing more damage down low when he adds stregnth. In his limited time he showed he can impact the game. Just for his ability to play solid defense and hit c&s 3's he should have his spot in the rotation instead of declining Tucker.


Yeah. Practice is where the bulk of development occurs, but the idea that game-time PT isn't incredibly valuable is ridiculous imo. If Booker got no PT last year, I really wonder what the level of excitement, outlook to this team, and his own drive to work in the offseason would be like. I think from every angle, getting the PT and a small taste of stardom was a big deal to him.
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Re: Game 12: Suns @ Nuggets 

Post#248 » by darealjuice » Thu Nov 17, 2016 8:51 am

LacosteM wrote:And maybe you should quit acting so condescending towards others when trying to defend your flawed narrative. Practice makes perfect sure, but you're underrating the importance of playing time. Even if the rookies are in for just 10 mins, they're learning through a real in-game experiences and are constantly finding their game.

As for Bender, what he lacks in athleticism and stregnth, he compensates with lateral quickness and high bbiq. Either way he's spending more time defending the perimiter than protecting the rim, and he's doing a damn fine job doing so. And as for his offense he's at the stage where he's more perimiter oriented player and I don't see a problem with that. He did well on his c&s opportunities and has made couple of baskets from putbacks and cuts. He'll start doing more damage down low when he adds stregnth. In his limited time he showed he can impact the game. Just for his ability to play solid defense and hit c&s 3's he should have his spot in the rotation instead of declining Tucker.


What exactly makes my narrative more flawed than anyone elses? Why is the idea that hours of individual practice is more important than an extra ~400-800 minutes of game time that you get from playing 5-10 more minutes a game so crazy? Why are the statistics showing that PJ has a significantly more impact than Bender or Chriss on the court flawed? They're numbers that should even be biased toward the rookies due to their lower playing time, yet they still favor PJ substantially. Also, you say you just want 10 minutes a game, but that's exactly what Bender was averaging going into this game?

I agree about Bender, I just think that there's no point in rushing him into game time by playing him out of position. Once his body is ready, he'll be strong enough to handle playing the 4 while being more mobile than the guy he matches up with. Right now he's either at the 4, where he's mobile enough to stick with them on the perimeter and switch on to guards but not strong enough to contend with his man in the low post on defense, and offensively he can can cause problems on offense floating around the perimeter, but isn't strong enough with the ball to operate out of the high post and top of the key where his mobility, basketball iq, and playmaking skills would really benefit him, or we play him out of position at the 3, where he's an easier cover on offense because he's not a strong ball handler yet and isn't quick or athletic enough to get by his man, so he's forced to be a 1 dimensional catch and shoot player, and defensively where he does a good job sticking to them on the perimeter and contesting drives. But he still makes a lot of the small rookies mistakes that PJ doesn't make and doesn't play with the physicality that PJ does, so PJ is getting burn right now. Things can easily change, it's a long season, and Booker was getting almost the exact same minutes last year as Bender this year, and we all know where that ended up.

AtheJ415 wrote:Yeah. Practice is where the bulk of development occurs, but the idea that game-time PT isn't incredibly valuable is ridiculous imo. If Booker got no PT last year, I really wonder what the level of excitement, outlook to this team, and his own drive to work in the offseason would be like. I think from every angle, getting the PT and a small taste of stardom was a big deal to him.


Booker got no playing to start the year too. Through their first 12 games, Bender and Booker both have/had 3 Inactive/DNPs and roughly 9.1 minutes per game played, Booker only saw an uptick in minutes once we started getting hit by injuries last year. It's early in the season, you never know what could happen to make Bender get more playing time, especially with a team of old guys.
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Re: Game 12: Suns @ Nuggets 

Post#249 » by OnceUponADime » Thu Nov 17, 2016 8:52 am

darealjuice wrote:
OnceUponADime wrote:
darealjuice wrote:We draft 2 of the rawest, youngest players in the draft that we knew immediately would be long term projects, and 12 games into the season everyone is already flipping their **** because they aren't playing much lol. It's pretty mind boggling. Chriss was the least developed player taken in the lottery, and Bender might have been the 2nd least developed, these guys are going to take time to get where they need to be to see significant playing time.

Do you realize that Bender and Chriss are PLAYING BETTER than the guys playing more minutes than them?

Nobody here is saying that they should play because their rookies...EVERYONE is saying that they should play because their better at the young their at now than Tucker is at the age he's at.

How does it feel knowing that 19 year old Chriss and Bender are better than 32 year old Tucker? And on most nights, 20 year old Ulis is better than 31 year old LB and 24 year old Knight.

Nobody is saying the kids should play because their young...everyone is saying the kids should play because the kids are already better than the scrub veterans we have.


This is literally exactly what I'm talking about, the "Rookies Can Do No Wrong" glasses in full effect. You could literally not find a single legitimate metric where Bender and Chriss are outperforming PJ Tucker. I challenge you to do it, please, prove me wrong. OBPM, DBPM, BPM, VORP, WS/48, PER, take your pick, Tucker is outdoing both of them in every single advanced stat there is by a significant margin. This place focuses so much on the good of the rookies and completely ignores their faults, while focusing solely on the faults of our veterans and ignoring the good that they do, it's ridiculous. I'm done though.

How about +/-?

Per 100 poss, Suns are minus 6.4 whenever Tucker is on the court.

Suns are a plus 11.2 whenever Bender is on the court.

I'll agree with you maybe on Chriss.

And you happen to think that people here only like rookies and don't like veterans. That's not true. Let me ask you one thing, why is it that nobody has a problem with veterans like Eric Bledsoe, TJ Warren, Jared Dudley, and Tyson Chandler and only seem to have problems with Brandon Knight and PJ Tucker? Explain that to me. Could it be its because Knight and Tucker suck while the other veterans don't?

Don't make this a veterans vs rookies thing. It's not. Its a Bender/Chriss/Ulis vs Tucker/Knight thing.
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Re: Game 12: Suns @ Nuggets 

Post#250 » by OnceUponADime » Thu Nov 17, 2016 8:54 am

darealjuice wrote:
AtheJ415 wrote:Yeah. Practice is where the bulk of development occurs, but the idea that game-time PT isn't incredibly valuable is ridiculous imo. If Booker got no PT last year, I really wonder what the level of excitement, outlook to this team, and his own drive to work in the offseason would be like. I think from every angle, getting the PT and a small taste of stardom was a big deal to him.


Booker got no playing to start the year too. Through their first 12 games, Bender and Booker both have/had 3 Inactive/DNPs and roughly 9.1 minutes per game played, Booker only saw an uptick in minutes once we started getting hit by injuries last year. It's early in the season, you never know what could happen to make Bender get more playing time, especially with a team of old guys.

I don't want to speak for atheJ415 but I believe what he's saying is that it shouldn't take injuries for talents like Booker/Bender to play.

One of the main reasons that I think Hornacek got fired was because of his reluctance to play Booker earlier in the season. He started playing him only when he had no choice because players got injured and it was too late by then.
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Re: Game 12: Suns @ Nuggets 

Post#251 » by AtheJ415 » Thu Nov 17, 2016 8:55 am

darealjuice wrote:
LacosteM wrote:And maybe you should quit acting so condescending towards others when trying to defend your flawed narrative. Practice makes perfect sure, but you're underrating the importance of playing time. Even if the rookies are in for just 10 mins, they're learning through a real in-game experiences and are constantly finding their game.

As for Bender, what he lacks in athleticism and stregnth, he compensates with lateral quickness and high bbiq. Either way he's spending more time defending the perimiter than protecting the rim, and he's doing a damn fine job doing so. And as for his offense he's at the stage where he's more perimiter oriented player and I don't see a problem with that. He did well on his c&s opportunities and has made couple of baskets from putbacks and cuts. He'll start doing more damage down low when he adds stregnth. In his limited time he showed he can impact the game. Just for his ability to play solid defense and hit c&s 3's he should have his spot in the rotation instead of declining Tucker.


What exactly makes my narrative more flawed than anyone elses? Why is the idea that hours of individual practice is more important than an extra ~400-800 minutes of game time that you get from playing 5-10 more minutes a game so crazy? Why are the statistics showing that PJ has a significantly more impact than Bender or Chriss on the court flawed? They're numbers that should even be biased toward the rookies due to their lower playing time, yet they still favor PJ substantially. Also, you say you just want 10 minutes a game, but that's exactly what Bender was averaging going into this game?

I agree about Bender, I just think that there's no point in rushing him into game time by playing him out of position. Once his body is ready, he'll be strong enough to handle playing the 4 while being more mobile than the guy he matches up with. Right now he's either at the 4, where he's mobile enough to stick with them on the perimeter and switch on to guards but not strong enough to contend with his man in the low post on defense, and offensively he can can cause problems on offense floating around the perimeter, but isn't strong enough with the ball to operate out of the high post and top of the key where his mobility, basketball iq, and playmaking skills would really benefit him, or we play him out of position at the 3, where he's an easier cover on offense because he's not a strong ball handler yet and isn't quick or athletic enough to get by his man, so he's forced to be a 1 dimensional catch and shoot player, and defensively where he does a good job sticking to them on the perimeter and contesting drives. But he still makes a lot of the small rookies mistakes that PJ doesn't make and doesn't play with the physicality that PJ does, so PJ is getting burn right now. Things can easily change, it's a long season, and Booker was getting almost the exact same minutes last year as Bender this year, and we all know where that ended up.

AtheJ415 wrote:Yeah. Practice is where the bulk of development occurs, but the idea that game-time PT isn't incredibly valuable is ridiculous imo. If Booker got no PT last year, I really wonder what the level of excitement, outlook to this team, and his own drive to work in the offseason would be like. I think from every angle, getting the PT and a small taste of stardom was a big deal to him.


Booker got no playing to start the year too. Through their first 12 games, Bender and Booker both have/had 3 Inactive/DNPs and roughly 9.1 minutes per game played, Booker only saw an uptick in minutes once we started getting hit by injuries last year. It's early in the season, you never know what could happen to make Bender get more playing time, especially with a team of old guys.


Missing the point. The point is that Booker DID get that PT and is better for it. If we're just praying for someone to get injured for Bender and Chriss to get PT then it's a problem. Chriss is starting and still barely plays some nights.
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Re: Game 12: Suns @ Nuggets 

Post#252 » by AtheJ415 » Thu Nov 17, 2016 8:59 am

OnceUponADime wrote:
darealjuice wrote:
AtheJ415 wrote:Yeah. Practice is where the bulk of development occurs, but the idea that game-time PT isn't incredibly valuable is ridiculous imo. If Booker got no PT last year, I really wonder what the level of excitement, outlook to this team, and his own drive to work in the offseason would be like. I think from every angle, getting the PT and a small taste of stardom was a big deal to him.


Booker got no playing to start the year too. Through their first 12 games, Bender and Booker both have/had 3 Inactive/DNPs and roughly 9.1 minutes per game played, Booker only saw an uptick in minutes once we started getting hit by injuries last year. It's early in the season, you never know what could happen to make Bender get more playing time, especially with a team of old guys.

I don't want to speak for atheJ415 but I believe what he's saying is that it shouldn't take injuries for talents like Booker/Bender to play.

One of the main reasons that I think Hornacek got fired was because of his reluctance to play Booker earlier in the season. He started playing him only when he had no choice because players got injured and it was too late by then.


Exactly. My point was that Booker getting PT was a big deal in his development. I wasn't speaking about the circumstance or decision on its own--just the value of that PT to his development. That said, I'll comment on Hornacek's decision now. Booker absolutely lit it up in Game 1. Hornacek then never gave him PT for the following games. It was inexcusable. Hornacek's rtoations were absolute nonsense. We played units that had no prayer of scoring and then followed it up with units that had no prayer of stopping anybody. There was no attempt to balance the lineups or stagger our best players.
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Re: Game 12: Suns @ Nuggets 

Post#253 » by Beetlejuice » Thu Nov 17, 2016 9:02 am

Ill chirp in a little.

I`m with darealjuice, rookies are not playing better than Tucker. Only Bender has looked good for stretches but he does get pushed around a lot and his rebounding vs Tucker are not even comparable. Also I feel that his good shooting percentages are at this point a anomaly . He rushes his shot too often, i doubt he can keep doing that at 40% clip from three. It is possible that when we play him 25 minutes a game he gets like 2-3 rebounds shoots 31% and is in a public debate about being a major bust. I am no expert about would trial by fire be more effective. Dragic went through one and he turned out ok.

We will be out of playoff race soon. We will see rookies more and more. Suns narrative "we believe us making the playoffs" is fine at this point and does help out our rookies, and when the narrative changes and none of the blame can be put on rookies for failing the playoff goal, they can go out there playing poorly most of the time under development narrative and still keep their confidence at levels deemed ok by our basketball staff. Again i do not know if trial by fire might be more effective . I think i personally would go for keeping fear and doubt away from raw teenagers.
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Re: Game 12: Suns @ Nuggets 

Post#254 » by darealjuice » Thu Nov 17, 2016 9:04 am

OnceUponADime wrote:
darealjuice wrote:
OnceUponADime wrote:Do you realize that Bender and Chriss are PLAYING BETTER than the guys playing more minutes than them?

Nobody here is saying that they should play because their rookies...EVERYONE is saying that they should play because their better at the young their at now than Tucker is at the age he's at.

How does it feel knowing that 19 year old Chriss and Bender are better than 32 year old Tucker? And on most nights, 20 year old Ulis is better than 31 year old LB and 24 year old Knight.

Nobody is saying the kids should play because their young...everyone is saying the kids should play because the kids are already better than the scrub veterans we have.


This is literally exactly what I'm talking about, the "Rookies Can Do No Wrong" glasses in full effect. You could literally not find a single legitimate metric where Bender and Chriss are outperforming PJ Tucker. I challenge you to do it, please, prove me wrong. OBPM, DBPM, BPM, VORP, WS/48, PER, take your pick, Tucker is outdoing both of them in every single advanced stat there is by a significant margin. This place focuses so much on the good of the rookies and completely ignores their faults, while focusing solely on the faults of our veterans and ignoring the good that they do, it's ridiculous. I'm done though.

How about +/-?

Per 100 poss, Suns are minus 6.4 whenever Tucker is on the court.

Suns are a plus 11.2 whenever Bender is on the court.

I'll agree with you maybe on Chriss.

And you happen to think that people here only like rookies and don't like veterans. That's not true. Let me ask you one thing, why is it that nobody has a problem with veterans like Eric Bledsoe, TJ Warren, Jared Dudley, and Tyson Chandler and only seem to have problems with Brandon Knight and PJ Tucker? Explain that to me. Could it be its because Knight and Tucker suck while the other veterans don't?

Don't make this a veterans vs rookies thing. It's not. Its a Bender/Chriss/Ulis vs Tucker/Knight thing.


+/- is a really bad stat to measure individual performance, it's heavily dictated by the lineups that the players typically run with. That's why RPM was developed to account for things like the strength/production of teammates on the court with them, but there isn't enough data from this season to calculate it yet.

People don't like Knight because he's a chucker and plays an unattractive brand of basketball to people who are used to pass-first guards like Nash and like that about Ulis now. I'm not even a Knight fan, and I like Ulis, but Ulis isn't near ready to take over Knight's role right now. But I've seen many, many people on here criticize Bledsoe, TJ is still a young player, Dudley has always been a fan favorite here and has been playing relatively good, and Tyson got a lot of flack around here until he started playing with a bit more heart this year. Tucker does suck, but he's still statistically significantly more effective on the court than Chriss or Bender, and despite our fans wishes, this team's goal is to win games, so they'll likely lean on PJ more than the rookies until something changes.
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Re: Game 12: Suns @ Nuggets 

Post#255 » by Son of Ra » Thu Nov 17, 2016 10:31 am

Having played basketball on a team myself I personally think that real playing time is a million times more important than practice. I knew the ins and outs of my teammates and would own them in practice. You get used to the moves that work on your teammates but once I got thrown out there on the court (I was mostly a rotation player) these dudes would dominate me. Because they all played differently than my teammates. So the moves that were practiced and drilled over and over were worthless and I had no real alternatives. So that is where I benefited the most. On the court, being outplayed and confronted with varying styles of play. And if that, especially being a professional athlete, shatters your confidence then I'm sorry, you're a mental midget and not fit for professional sports.
Hence from my own experience I think there is nothing more import than tons and tons of minutes on the court facing better, more experienced players.
Just my 2 cents on the matter.
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Re: Game 12: Suns @ Nuggets 

Post#256 » by lilfishi22 » Thu Nov 17, 2016 12:02 pm

We're 12 games in and our very raw rookies have played some inconsistent minutes and logged a few DNP's. It's not the end of the world, RELAX. Playing well in a few games and stinking it up in the rest is not going to get you consistent minutes over a proven veteran even if they haven't played up to their standards.

I strongly believe in a structured approach to giving our young guys minutes. Giving PT to young players who neither deserves it nor are ready for it, isn't the best way to develop them. Playing time is important but it's only one part of development process. Like I've said before, even if they don't play minutes, they are still developing. They are still putting time in practice, in the gym and just being around the veterans to see how they carry themselves through a rigorous 82 game season.

And just for some perspective, Marquese Chriss, likely one of the least experienced players we've drafted in some time, is starting for us. A 19 year old who only started playing competitive basketball in HS is starting for an NBA team. You wanna talk about development minutes, there you are.
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Re: Game 12: Suns @ Nuggets 

Post#257 » by Frank Lee » Thu Nov 17, 2016 12:55 pm

Then he should be getting 35 minutes a night in Prescott. Realistically, this kid is what....3 yrs away from being an NBA player? Is that the kind of youth movement y'all want. The Philadelphia Story with out the #1s?

This team is so unbearable to watch. soon the only reason to tune in will be to see the rooks, book and TJ.
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Re: Game 12: Suns @ Nuggets 

Post#258 » by Saberestar » Thu Nov 17, 2016 1:09 pm

Jdiddy701 wrote:That was the worst game so far to watch.. the effort for the entire team was sad. Bledsoe was by the far the worst player on the court.


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I agree. Jameer Nelson's corpse was outstanding in front of Bledsoe. I think that his defense all season long has been overrated, the other night against Kilpatrick he was terrible too.
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Re: Game 12: Suns @ Nuggets 

Post#259 » by Saberestar » Thu Nov 17, 2016 1:28 pm

We are a rebuilding team, OK, but everyone wants to see improvements. At this point we can not see any improvement from last season. Booker and Warren are good, that is all we have for sure...period.

If we just win just 20 games with all those veteran players and "playoffs" expectations then this entire roster, McDonough and Watson are gonna be on the hot seat at the end of the season.

Professional sports are always about results, and six consecutive years without playoffs and a 20W's team it's too much to swallow.
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Re: Game 12: Suns @ Nuggets 

Post#260 » by RaisingArizona » Thu Nov 17, 2016 1:41 pm

darealjuice wrote:
OnceUponADime wrote:
darealjuice wrote:We draft 2 of the rawest, youngest players in the draft that we knew immediately would be long term projects, and 12 games into the season everyone is already flipping their **** because they aren't playing much lol. It's pretty mind boggling. Chriss was the least developed player taken in the lottery, and Bender might have been the 2nd least developed, these guys are going to take time to get where they need to be to see significant playing time.

Do you realize that Bender and Chriss are PLAYING BETTER than the guys playing more minutes than them?

Nobody here is saying that they should play because their rookies...EVERYONE is saying that they should play because their better at the young their at now than Tucker is at the age he's at.

How does it feel knowing that 19 year old Chriss and Bender are better than 32 year old Tucker? And on most nights, 20 year old Ulis is better than 31 year old LB and 24 year old Knight.

Nobody is saying the kids should play because their young...everyone is saying the kids should play because the kids are already better than the scrub veterans we have.


This is literally exactly what I'm talking about, the "Rookies Can Do No Wrong" glasses in full effect. You could literally not find a single legitimate metric where Bender and Chriss are outperforming PJ Tucker. I challenge you to do it, please, prove me wrong. OBPM, DBPM, BPM, VORP, WS/48, PER, take your pick, Tucker is outdoing both of them in every single advanced stat there is by a significant margin. This place focuses so much on the good of the rookies and completely ignores their faults, while focusing solely on the faults of our veterans and ignoring the good that they do, it's ridiculous. I'm done though.

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