2020 Preseason Speculation - Lineup battles underway

[Qwigglez]

For all the reasons people are willing to give up Cam are the exact reasons why OKC shouldn't want him either. Injury history, will be 28 by the time his rookie contract ends, not much upside, etc.

[Flying Colors]

Honestly feel like OKC is getting greedy here, we’d be giving them a good starter in Rubio, and a young budding star in Oubre, plus we’re taking on Chris Paul’s colossal contract, now they want Cam as well?

[bwgood77]

I feel like that could keep going. You agree to Cam and then the next thing is "You don't walk away because of the 10th pick in a bad draft" and so on.

But thats different. You already know its going to take Oubre and Rubio just from a money standpoint. 2 guys that OKC has already said they have no interest in and the reason why we needed to get a 3rd and possibly a 4th team involved. They still arnt getting any kind of asset for CP3. They get capspace a year from now, but they are looking at a rebuild and im sure will be well under the cap anyways, so that doesnt matter much to them. So they ask for Cam or our pick. Its on the FO which one gets the trade done and from the looks of it its Cam that they would rather let go. If they come back and ask for the pick also, that different than walking away because of a 9PPG player or a top 10 draft pick, its walking away because of a 9PPG player AND a top 10 draft pick.

Well, we really don't know anything the FO has really discussed, to be fair. However, if OKC doesn't want Rubio and Oubre and they are going to 3rd teams, we should be working on getting assets from those teams for OKC. Or if they did end up with Cam or our pick, maybe those assets come to us.

[RedIndian]

For all the reasons people are willing to give up Cam are the exact reasons why OKC shouldn't want him either. Injury history, will be 28 by the time his rookie contract ends, not much upside, etc.

Firstly, Cam will be 27, not 28 when his rookie deal expires. I found hilarious that Flex said he'd be 'nearly 30' once his rookie deal expires.

This is a classic sign of talking yourself into a bad deal.

Nobody liked the Cam pick when it was made, but as it turns out, he's turned out to be a really promising player. Lights out shooter, more athletic than he looks. Solid measurables, he's added weight as well and can legit play the 4 now.

This 9 ppg is also completely misleading. Look at his bubble stats - 13/6. This kid will average 15/7 as a starter easily soon. You don't give up on that cheaply.

[RedIndian]

Flex mentioned that if we include Cam, there may be other players coming back. I'd want one of Bazley or Dort if Cam is going to OKC. I still wouldn't be too happy. Our wing depth would be terrible post this trade.

Just to add, getting Gallo or Bertans doesn't really compensate for losing two excellent young wings.

Gallo is 32 and brutally injury prone. Not to mention that he simply can't defend on the perimeter anymore.

Bertans is a world class shooter, but putrid defensively.

This is subtraction by addition.

Yeah, I agree. If our starting lineup is CP3, Book, Bridges, Gallo and Ayton, that is strong on paper, but we went with a 4 like that for much of the year (a poor man's Gallo in Saric) and didn't do nearly as well than when we started 2 wings at SF/PF. Boston is a good example of this, and got really good once Brown and Tatum had a couple years to grow with the team. We just had that with Cam and Oubre.

But after that our bench would be weak..Payne, Carter?, Draft pick?, Saric? Not a fan of Bertans really...can Gallo or Bertans chase wings?

We would suddenly be very old with very little depth. As we all know, draft picks can bust too...then what would our bench look like?

Our two wing starting line-ups - Bridges-Oubre and Bridges-Cam - were 2 of the 7 best starting lineups in the league last year.

I mean it's not difficult to understand why - top class playmaker in Rubio, elite scorer in Booker, and an extremely mobile athletic front court that can switch on to pretty much anyone on defense. I think THAT was the most exciting part about our future.

In fact, I'd have double downed on that, and added another athletic young wing in the draft. Ayton, Cam, Bridges and Bey/Vassell. That front court can switch and D up for days. Perfect foil for Booker and Paul.

Remember the idea isn't just be a 5th or 6th seed for a couple of years in the playoffs. It's to compete for the best part of the next decade in the playoffs. And that means building something to stop the likes of Luka, Harden, Lillard, Jamal Murray, Mitchell etc.

Depleting your young wing depth to add Gallo is the just the exact opposite of that. Gallo will put up points for sure, but he's not going to be offering any resistance to any of the premium scorers we'll meet in the playoffs.

[Jdiddy701]

Cam Johnson doesn’t have any upside? This guy can/will literally do everything on the floor. He’s also a great teammate and a true professional. Suns would be absolute idiots to trade him in part of a deal to get CP3.

At the end of the day, it’s okay to walk away James Jones.


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[TeamTragic]

Thunder can have a future pick top-10 protected.

We are not trading away Cam/#10.

[bwgood77]

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This Vin guy is a crackup...after a bunch of Suns fans attacked him when he was arguing with Gambo....

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[suns12345]

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This Vin guy is a crackup...after a bunch of Suns fans attacked him when he was arguing with Gambo....

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Is that Chris Paul tweet real???

[bwgood77]

Is that Chris Paul tweet real???

I actually don't see it looking at Chris Paul's account. It looks pretty real though with the verification checkmark...but I guess anyone can create fake stuff these days...or he deleted it.

[Ghost of Kleine]

Flex mentioned that if we include Cam, there may be other players coming back. I'd want one of Bazley or Dort if Cam is going to OKC. I still wouldn't be too happy. Our wing depth would be terrible post this trade.

Just to add, getting Gallo or Bertans doesn't really compensate for losing two excellent young wings.

Gallo is 32 and brutally injury prone. Not to mention that he simply can't defend on the perimeter anymore.

Bertans is a world class shooter, but putrid defensively.

This is subtraction by addition.

Exactly! If our front office is truly desperate enough to trade Cam in this deal with both Rubio and Oubre, Our wing depth and point guard depth would be razor thin. It's just a really bad move honestly. But If they do decide to move Cam, we'll at the very least need a replacement option, And additional multipositional defense to help cover for Gallos' lack of defensive impact. Might I suggest:

To replace Cam-
1- Aaron Nesmith ( 6'6).
2-Saddiq Bey ( 6'8).
3- **Justinian Jessup ( 6'7).
( elite 6'7 Duncan Robinson type of shooter).

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To replace Oubre-
1- Devin Vassell (Likely not available at 10).

2- *Tyler Bey ( 2nd best multipositional, ELITE lockdown defender in the draft behind Vassell).

3- Jaden McDaniels ( 6'9 version of Jonathan Isaac/ Rashard Lewis).

4- Elijah Hughes ( 6'7 identical version of Oubre in almost every way).

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Identical to Oubre in almost every way.

5- Kenyon Martin Jr. ( 6'7 defensive version of Oubre.

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Same elite athleticism, same defensive tenacity, same bravado.

McDaniels/ Hughes/ Martin Jr could all be easily had in the 2nd round, Allowing us to keep.our 10th pick for a high end guard: Lewis or Terry or Riller. Or in a trade back scenario in which we can add a big first:
Jalen Smith/ Precious Achiuwa/ Xavier Tillman/ Tyler Bey/ Paul Reed/ Reggie Perry. And then a guard 2nd:
Flynn/ Riller/ Hinton/ Alexander/ Jones.

Honestly though, I still think that the best trade we could do to still benefit from trading Oubre and Rubio would be:

[u]Phoenix/ Golden State/Detroit/OKC[/u
https://tradenba.com/trades/-yf84WMbM

- Phoenix gets-
Kennard/ Eric Paschall/ Chris Paul. ( keeps the 10th pick).

- Golden State gets-
Rubio and Oubre.

- Detroit gets-
Wiggins/ Jerome / # 2 pick ( GS)/ And still has around 26 million ( post trade) to sign Van Vleet? At 2, They can take Edwards if they like?

- OKC gets-
Kaminsky/ Okobo/ Mikhaliuk/ Snell/ 7th pick( Detroit). That's 20 million in expiring contracts this summer, AND they move up 18 spots into the top 10 of the draft.

[Ghost of Kleine]

So I read that Chris Paul is making a decision on either the Clippers or Phoenix.

Paul is said to lean Clippers, and of course this makes sense based on winning.

OKC likes the Suns package better, but are waiting to see what direction Paul will go.

viewtopic.php?p=86205507#p86205507

Apparently now Paul is leaning Clippers?

Flex sweating right now

At this point, I'm getting tired of Presti and his greedy azz posturing to fleece us ! I actually am starting to really hope that this trade falls through, because I really think that we were onto something in the bubble. And cap flexibility, chemistry, And depth are going to critically matter in this upcoming season.
It's ridiculous to be giving up so much value when we're the team assuming all of the risk!

[Ghost of Kleine]

Anyone listen to that new podcast? If so, any new news? I'm guessing not or I would have seen it on twitter. Seems like what news we do hear gets less and less positive...not that we won't end up with CP3, but what we might give up for him. I did see Flex say if we gave up Cam we'd probably get something back....so maybe one or both of their late picks or something.

It seems not so long ago no one thought the Thunder would be able to move the Chris Paul contract without attaching picks...but then Presti met Jones and Bower.

But in giving up Cam, We'd also be getting back Hamidou Diallo and Mike Muscala!

[sunskerr]

Bruh we would give up 150 per game with a lineup of Paul/Booker/Gallinari. All three of those guys were big negative defenders last year.

I really liked our double wings at both forward positions last year. Like some people mentioned here, that's backed up by stats as among our best lineups. We get to surround Ayton and Rubio with shooters so they can do their game, and it opens the floor for Book to operate too. Defensively with Ayton + 2 wings we get to switch almost everything on defense too.

You guys saw what the Lakers did with Davis at center in the playoffs, or Bam on the Heat when those guys were surrounded by switchers like Crowder, Butler, Caruso, and even LeBron, etc...We have Ayton who can do that too, so we should try to go in that direction as much as possible.

[bwgood77]

Bruh we would give up 150 per game with a lineup of Paul/Booker/Gallinari. All three of those guys were big negative defenders last year.

I really liked our double wings at both forward positions last year. Like some people mentioned here, that's backed up by stats as among our best lineups. We get to surround Ayton and Rubio with shooters so they can do their game, and it opens the floor for Book to operate too. Defensively with Ayton + 2 wings we get to switch almost everything on defense too.

You guys saw what the Lakers did with Davis at center in the playoffs, or Bam on the Heat when those guys were surrounded by switchers like Crowder, Butler, Caruso, and even LeBron, etc...We have Ayton who can do that too, so we should try to go in that direction as much as possible.

I agree about having guys that can switch rather than having a guy like Gallinari or Bertans.

But according to what is Paul a negative defender? I didn't watch a lot of them, but he's always been one of the best defensive point guards, if not the best. I did watch him in the all star game and he was all over the place on defense and really pesky.

He is 5th in DRPM for point guards but some of the guys ahead of him didn't play much. http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/DRPM/position/1

[Kerrsed]

Bruh we would give up 150 per game with a lineup of Paul/Booker/Gallinari. All three of those guys were big negative defenders last year.

I really liked our double wings at both forward positions last year. Like some people mentioned here, that's backed up by stats as among our best lineups. We get to surround Ayton and Rubio with shooters so they can do their game, and it opens the floor for Book to operate too. Defensively with Ayton + 2 wings we get to switch almost everything on defense too.

You guys saw what the Lakers did with Davis at center in the playoffs, or Bam on the Heat when those guys were surrounded by switchers like Crowder, Butler, Caruso, and even LeBron, etc...We have Ayton who can do that too, so we should try to go in that direction as much as possible.

I agree about having guys that can switch rather than having a guy like Gallinari or Bertans.

But according to what is Paul a negative defender? I didn't watch a lot of them, but he's always been one of the best defensive point guards, if not the best. I did watch him in the all star game and he was all over the place on defense and really pesky.

He is 5th in DRPM for point guards but some of the guys ahead of him didn't play much. http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/DRPM/position/1

Yeah, you can toss Shaq out of there for his limited minutes (11 per game).

CP3
#4 Defensive PG according to DRPM
#6 Offensive PG according to ORPM
#1 Overall PG according to RPM
#1 Overall PG according to WINS

Rubio
#9 Defensive PG according to DRPM (#8 with Shaq removed)
#30 Offensive PG according to ORPM
#10 Overall PG according to RPM
#5 Overall PG according to WINS

[sunskerr]

I agree about having guys that can switch rather than having a guy like Gallinari or Bertans.

But according to what is Paul a negative defender? I didn't watch a lot of them, but he's always been one of the best defensive point guards, if not the best. I did watch him in the all star game and he was all over the place on defense and really pesky.

He is 5th in DRPM for point guards but some of the guys ahead of him didn't play much. http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/DRPM/position/1

D-PIPM has him at just 0.14 and RAPTOR has him at like -2.x .

At any rate he's absolutely not the defensive player (anymore) he's been known to be.

[Blackification]

Never a dull off season sheesh

[AtheJ415]

We better not trade 10, Cam, a pick swap, or anything like that for CP3. Just last year OKC received a boatload of picks for taking on Paul. His deal is still bad, as good as he is. Oubre has value despite being an FA soon, as does Rubio. That should be enough. Who exactly are we bidding against? I don't see LAC or Philly beating that offer. For the salaries to match they'd have to dump guys who are also overpaid and thus not attractive to OKC (Horford, for instance).

[bwgood77]

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