The One And Only Offseason Thread 4

[Cutter]

The estimates are that they have between $10-11M in cap space not counting their recent signing of Bayless, but counting their claim of Marshall off waivers. Counting Bayless, they have about $7M in cap space. This also assumes they renounce their Bird rights to Udoh and Sessions. If they do not, they have no cap space to spend. These cap holds are probably more responsible for the fact the Bayless contract is not executed (at least according to Bucks' fans) as opposed to the notion of a Bledsoe acquisition.

If that is the case then why on Earth are the Bucks even trying to get Bledsoe when they know that he doesn't even want the $12M/yr from PHX.

Its not like he had a rift with the Suns so he wants out. He just wants to get paid. I'm sure he would rather play in PHX than with the Bucks if both teams offer the same money.

If Bledsoe rejected the Suns $12M/yr offer, why would he accept the Bucks $10-$11M/yr offer?

Well if they do a S&T obviously they send out salaries to be able to absorb him. As long as you are under the cap you can receive a player in a S&T as long as the salaries match or he fits under the cap after the trade.

And I agree with JD that Suns aren't going to bail out the Bucks on their poor cap management buy taking on the bad contracts of Illysova and possibly Delfino in a S&T. In these situations McD looks for undervalued assets where he can rehabilitate their value in our system. With the right contrat Illysova might be considered an under valued asset. With the contract he currently has, when combined with his production, puts him in neutral or negative value territory.

I don't think Suns and Bucks make good trade partners.

[bwgood77]

If that is the case then why on Earth are the Bucks even trying to get Bledsoe when they know that he doesn't even want the $12M/yr from PHX.

Its not like he had a rift with the Suns so he wants out. He just wants to get paid. I'm sure he would rather play in PHX than with the Bucks if both teams offer the same money.

If Bledsoe rejected the Suns $12M/yr offer, why would he accept the Bucks $10-$11M/yr offer?

Well if they do a S&T obviously they send out salaries to be able to absorb him. As long as you are under the cap you can receive a player in a S&T as long as the salaries match or he fits under the cap after the trade.

And I agree with JD that Suns aren't going to bail out the Bucks on their poor cap management buy taking on the bad contracts of Illysova and possibly Delfino in a S&T. In these situations McD looks for undervalued assets where he can rehabilitate their value in our system. With the right contrat Illysova might be considered an under valued asset. With the contract he currently has, when combined with his production, puts him in neutral or negative value territory.

I don't think Suns and Bucks make good trade partners.

Oh I agree. I wouldn't do a S&T with them. I was just saying just because a team doesn't have the room to offer a max or more than us, doesn't mean they couldn't try to engage discussion with us on a S&T.

[bwgood77]

Which guards have had meniscus injuries? Wade, Rose, Westbrook, Arenas, Paul...

Pretty much everyone has dealt with reacurring knee issues since but the Suns offered 4 years so they must feel comfortable in the short term. Throw in a PO the last year and I think this gets done.

Roy. Also a non guard that had one is Bynum, and he hasn't exactly been the same since then, though that may also be for other reasons. Budinger did last year too. Not sure how he will come back. JR Smith as well right before last year and had his worst season in 8 years. It's tough, but most players after one, come back fine, and after two can as well (at least Bledsoe did...not sure how many others had two other than Roy, who had three). Three? Well, not sure how many have come back from three.

[sunskerr]

Which guards have had meniscus injuries? Wade, Rose, Westbrook, Arenas, Paul...

Pretty much everyone has dealt with reacurring knee issues since but the Suns offered 4 years so they must feel comfortable in the short term. Throw in a PO the last year and I think this gets done.

Roy. Also a non guard that had one is Bynum, and he hasn't exactly been the same since then, though that may also be for other reasons. Budinger did last year too. Not sure how he will come back. JR Smith as well right before last year and had his worst season in 8 years. It's tough, but most players after one, come back fine, and after two can as well (at least Bledsoe did...not sure how many others had two other than Roy, who had three). Three? Well, not sure how many have come back from three.

So let's conveniently forget the real culprit behind Brandon Roy's knees for the sake of making a point, shall we?

Brandon Roy has degenerative arthritis...It really didn't matter how many surgeries he had (though it would make sense that additional injuries could have compounded this condition). He wouldn't have been playing very long either way. Whether it was multiple injuries and surgeries that lead to his arthritis or vice-versa, he had a completely different issue going on than any of the other players you're talking about.

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/ ... -not-good/

[DRK]

How do you guys feel about bringing back Shannon Brown if Bledsoe leaves?

Shannon's unselfish play and super consistent outside shot would probably fit well with this team.

I think we should offer Shannon Brown $12 million over 2 years with the 2nd year being a team option.

Wheres Grumpysaddle. We need some barfing gifs.


I never thought Ild see the day where someone would want Chucky Brown back

[bwgood77]

Which guards have had meniscus injuries? Wade, Rose, Westbrook, Arenas, Paul...

Pretty much everyone has dealt with reacurring knee issues since but the Suns offered 4 years so they must feel comfortable in the short term. Throw in a PO the last year and I think this gets done.

Roy. Also a non guard that had one is Bynum, and he hasn't exactly been the same since then, though that may also be for other reasons. Budinger did last year too. Not sure how he will come back. JR Smith as well right before last year and had his worst season in 8 years. It's tough, but most players after one, come back fine, and after two can as well (at least Bledsoe did...not sure how many others had two other than Roy, who had three). Three? Well, not sure how many have come back from three.

So let's conveniently forget the real culprit behind Brandon Roy's knees for the sake of making a point, shall we?

Brandon Roy has degenerative arthritis...It really didn't matter how many surgeries he had (though it would make sense that additional injuries could have compounded this condition). He wouldn't have been playing very long either way. Whether it was multiple injuries and surgeries that lead to his arthritis or vice-versa, he had a completely different issue going on than any of the other players you're talking about.

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/ ... -not-good/

I'm not sure if you know what the cause for degenerative arthritis (or osteoarthritis) is, but it is the wear and tear of of the cartilage around bones, whether it be due to aging, wear and tear or trauma. Now, when you cut out part of the meniscus (which is cartilage) that is even worse than aging cartilage, because it is gone.

Make no mistake about it, the less cartilage around that bone, the worse. Every time you tear it, something gets cut out, and it probably means it was degenerative to an extent in the first place

But Roy did have all four of his meniscus removed. Chris Paul had one meniscus entirely removed, which was a risk, but he ended up coming back fine for now. It is unclear whether Bledsoe had his meniscus entirely removed this last time, but it was the same doctor as Paul's so my guess is, that with the success with Paul after that, he may have removed it (the doctor stated that Paul's was easier to remove than repair here).

It talks about Bledsoe here, and it being unclear whether they had his meniscus removed or just repaired, but this was his FIRST meniscus tear. Paul only had the one. This article is about 3 1/2 years old but explains it pretty well.

http://www.clipsnation.com/2011/12/21/2 ... uls-knee-s

Also, does anyone know if Bledsoe's torn Meniscus was in the same knee as before, or even the same meniscus? There are two in each knee. There is a chance he has now had two of him meniscus entirely removed, though it is unclear because he won't talk about it, even though it is known that Paul had one meniscus completely removed.

[lilfishi22]

I never thought Ild see the day where someone would want Chucky Brown back

[bwgood77]

How do you guys feel about bringing back Shannon Brown if Bledsoe leaves?

Shannon's unselfish play and super consistent outside shot would probably fit well with this team.

I think we should offer Shannon Brown $12 million over 2 years with the 2nd year being a team option.

Wheres Grumpysaddle. We need some barfing gifs.


I never thought Ild see the day where someone would want Chucky Brown back

I was hoping grumpysaddle would see that too and was looking forward to some barfing gifs. I know some people hated them but that night I was laughing very hard watching all those gifs across my screen right after the signing.

[sunsbum]

FUUUUUUUUckkk no to the 5th year. 4 years with a team final year team option is fantastic, even if he wants a little bit more money.

[bwgood77]

FUUUUUUUUckkk no to the 5th year. 4 years with a team final year team option is fantastic, even if he wants a little bit more money.

Yeah, I'd rather go up a little more on the dollar per year than give a fifth year, and someone mentioned giving a player option after the third and a team option after the 4th or something like that, which makes zero sense.

Why would you give a guy a player option when the whole risk with him is injury? If anything include a team option.

I mean, I guess if the hang up on a 4/48 deal was a player option, then I'd think about it, but I certainly wouldn't come out and present that as an offer.

If I were them, after about another week, if I didn't hear anything, I'd probably call them up and say, ok, we have given this more thought, and we are willing to give you 4/50 (or maybe 4/52) with a team option after year 3. Otherwise the other offer stands.

Funny thing is, the new offer is worse because if he is injured, we can rid ourselves, but at least it initiates conversation, but these guys all about the dollars may have thought they won by holding out and sign up (doubtful...but who knows?)

[JTrain]

But back to the money thing, it's ALL ego. This guy's best buds from college are Cousins and Wall. They BOTH got the max. He probably truly believes he deserves what they got, and will feel a little embarrassed if he has to take less. Honestly I bet if those two guys had both signed 4/48 deals, he would have signed by now. Then of course a couple of white guys (ok, that sounds racist) but he's got to think he's better than Parsons and Hayward too.

The problem is, none of this really matters or is really applicable (for us) to his situation and market value mostly because the league is flush with good pgs and only a handful of teams would probably like to get a new starter and none with cap space.

For all we know, Cousins and Wall are telling him "you deserve the max dude, don't settle for less" but I bet just for ego's sake, it's tough for him to take less than those guys. Wall got 5/80 and Cousins got 4/62, so they are at 16 and 15.5 a year.

He obviously doesn't deserve what those guys get though, and he should know that. But his best buddies demanded the max and got it, so he probably is trying to do the same, but will eventually give in, mainly because he has to. And he will get over it.

Interesting theory.

[sunskerr]

I'm not sure if you know what the cause for degenerative arthritis (or osteoarthritis) is, but it is the wear and tear of of the cartilage around bones, whether it be due to aging, wear and tear or trauma. Now, when you cut out part of the meniscus (which is cartilage) that is even worse than aging cartilage, because it is gone.

Make no mistake about it, the less cartilage around that bone, the worse. Every time you tear it, something gets cut out, and it probably means it was degenerative to an extent in the first place

But Roy did have all four of his meniscus removed. Chris Paul had one meniscus entirely removed, which was a risk, but he ended up coming back fine for now. It is unclear whether Bledsoe had his meniscus entirely removed this last time, but it was the same doctor as Paul's so my guess is, that with the success with Paul after that, he may have removed it (the doctor stated that Paul's was easier to remove than repair here).

It talks about Bledsoe here, and it being unclear whether they had his meniscus removed or just repaired, but this was his FIRST meniscus tear. Paul only had the one. This article is about 3 1/2 years old but explains it pretty well.

http://www.clipsnation.com/2011/12/21/2 ... uls-knee-s

Also, does anyone know if Bledsoe's torn Meniscus was in the same knee as before, or even the same meniscus? There are two in each knee. There is a chance he has now had two of him meniscus entirely removed, though it is unclear because he won't talk about it, even though it is known that Paul had one meniscus completely removed.

So let's conveniently forget the real culprit behind Brandon Roy's knees for the sake of making a point, shall we?

Brandon Roy has degenerative arthritis...It really didn't matter how many surgeries he had (though it would make sense that additional injuries could have compounded this condition). He wouldn't have been playing very long either way. Whether it was multiple injuries and surgeries that lead to his arthritis or vice-versa, he had a completely different issue going on than any of the other players you're talking about.

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/ ... -not-good/

I give up.

[bwgood77]

I give up.

Yes, I certainly do too, because if you're trying to make a point with highlights, it doesn't make a good one. What I will say is Bledsoe isn't Roy. Not yet. Bledsoe two surgeries, possibly two removed meniscus, or repairs of torn ones. The only reason I say possible removal of two is because he used the same surgeon as Paul who said removing it was more effective than trying to repair it. Bledsoe has been mum both times on removal or repair, but I am not sure why you'd be mum if you just got it repaired. Yes, Roy had all four removed, and it's fairly likely Bledsoe has had two removed.

But all of these guys pretty much have degenerative arthritis because THAT is that it is called when you start having wear and tear on the cartilage in your knee. And removing or cutting out part of meniscus is a major action to take that helps the pain now, but who knows how much easier that makes an injury more likely in the future?

[JDLAW]

Roy. Also a non guard that had one is Bynum, and he hasn't exactly been the same since then, though that may also be for other reasons. Budinger did last year too. Not sure how he will come back. JR Smith as well right before last year and had his worst season in 8 years. It's tough, but most players after one, come back fine, and after two can as well (at least Bledsoe did...not sure how many others had two other than Roy, who had three). Three? Well, not sure how many have come back from three.

So let's conveniently forget the real culprit behind Brandon Roy's knees for the sake of making a point, shall we?

Brandon Roy has degenerative arthritis...It really didn't matter how many surgeries he had (though it would make sense that additional injuries could have compounded this condition). He wouldn't have been playing very long either way. Whether it was multiple injuries and surgeries that lead to his arthritis or vice-versa, he had a completely different issue going on than any of the other players you're talking about.

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/ ... -not-good/

I'm not sure if you know what the cause for degenerative arthritis (or osteoarthritis) is, but it is the wear and tear of of the cartilage around bones, whether it be due to aging, wear and tear or trauma. Now, when you cut out part of the meniscus (which is cartilage) that is even worse than aging cartilage, because it is gone.

Make no mistake about it, the less cartilage around that bone, the worse. Every time you tear it, something gets cut out, and it probably means it was degenerative to an extent in the first place

But Roy did have all four of his meniscus removed. Chris Paul had one meniscus entirely removed, which was a risk, but he ended up coming back fine for now. It is unclear whether Bledsoe had his meniscus entirely removed this last time, but it was the same doctor as Paul's so my guess is, that with the success with Paul after that, he may have removed it (the doctor stated that Paul's was easier to remove than repair here).

It talks about Bledsoe here, and it being unclear whether they had his meniscus removed or just repaired, but this was his FIRST meniscus tear. Paul only had the one. This article is about 3 1/2 years old but explains it pretty well.

http://www.clipsnation.com/2011/12/21/2 ... uls-knee-s

Also, does anyone know if Bledsoe's torn Meniscus was in the same knee as before, or even the same meniscus? There are two in each knee. There is a chance he has now had two of him meniscus entirely removed, though it is unclear because he won't talk about it, even though it is known that Paul had one meniscus completely removed.

You're way off on this and sadly, I speak from experience (OA in both knees, 11 surgeries and total knee replacement), hours of study for various cases I have had to handle, and hours of discussions with various orthropods who have treated me and have been experts for me. OA has many causes and it is more than cartilage degeneration around the bone. Many have OA and have never had meniscus or articular cartilage removed. Bledsoe had a partial menisectomy - a piece of his meniscus removed - he did not have a total.

His surgery was performed by Tom Carter the Suns team orthopedic surgeon. He is one of the best in the business. My partners and I know him well as we frequently use him as an expert witness. He correctly called Stoudemire and it was not repeat of the micro fracture, he had degenerative joint disease (OA) and had it from early on. Carter commented on it after the micro fracture surgery calling Stoudemire's non-micro fracture knee the worst of the two. If he has signed off on Bledsoe's for 4 or 5 years, and you can bet the Suns got his input, you can put your concerns to rest.

[sunsbum]

So let's conveniently forget the real culprit behind Brandon Roy's knees for the sake of making a point, shall we?

Brandon Roy has degenerative arthritis...It really didn't matter how many surgeries he had (though it would make sense that additional injuries could have compounded this condition). He wouldn't have been playing very long either way. Whether it was multiple injuries and surgeries that lead to his arthritis or vice-versa, he had a completely different issue going on than any of the other players you're talking about.

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/ ... -not-good/

I'm not sure if you know what the cause for degenerative arthritis (or osteoarthritis) is, but it is the wear and tear of of the cartilage around bones, whether it be due to aging, wear and tear or trauma. Now, when you cut out part of the meniscus (which is cartilage) that is even worse than aging cartilage, because it is gone.

Make no mistake about it, the less cartilage around that bone, the worse. Every time you tear it, something gets cut out, and it probably means it was degenerative to an extent in the first place

But Roy did have all four of his meniscus removed. Chris Paul had one meniscus entirely removed, which was a risk, but he ended up coming back fine for now. It is unclear whether Bledsoe had his meniscus entirely removed this last time, but it was the same doctor as Paul's so my guess is, that with the success with Paul after that, he may have removed it (the doctor stated that Paul's was easier to remove than repair here).

It talks about Bledsoe here, and it being unclear whether they had his meniscus removed or just repaired, but this was his FIRST meniscus tear. Paul only had the one. This article is about 3 1/2 years old but explains it pretty well.

http://www.clipsnation.com/2011/12/21/2 ... uls-knee-s

Also, does anyone know if Bledsoe's torn Meniscus was in the same knee as before, or even the same meniscus? There are two in each knee. There is a chance he has now had two of him meniscus entirely removed, though it is unclear because he won't talk about it, even though it is known that Paul had one meniscus completely removed.

You're way off on this and sadly, I speak from experience (OA in both knees, 11 surgeries and total knee replacement), hours of study for various cases I have had to handle, and hours of discussions with various orthropods who have treated me and have been experts for me. OA has many causes and it is more than cartilage degeneration around the bone. Many have OA and have never had meniscus or articular cartilage removed. Bledsoe had a partial menisectomy - a piece of his meniscus removed - he did not have a total.

His surgery was performed by Tom Carter the Suns team orthopedic surgeon. He is one of the best in the business. My partners and I know him well as we frequently use him as an expert witness. He correctly called Stoudemire and it was not repeat of the micro fracture, he had degenerative joint disease (OA) and had it from early on. Carter commented on it after the micro fracture surgery calling Stoudemire's non-micro fracture knee the worst of the two. If he has signed off on Bledsoe's for 4 or 5 years, and you can bet the Suns got his input, you can put your concerns to rest.

I don't buy this because surely he signed off on Eric Gordons knee as well. Do not want.

[JDLAW]

I'm not sure if you know what the cause for degenerative arthritis (or osteoarthritis) is, but it is the wear and tear of of the cartilage around bones, whether it be due to aging, wear and tear or trauma. Now, when you cut out part of the meniscus (which is cartilage) that is even worse than aging cartilage, because it is gone.

Make no mistake about it, the less cartilage around that bone, the worse. Every time you tear it, something gets cut out, and it probably means it was degenerative to an extent in the first place

But Roy did have all four of his meniscus removed. Chris Paul had one meniscus entirely removed, which was a risk, but he ended up coming back fine for now. It is unclear whether Bledsoe had his meniscus entirely removed this last time, but it was the same doctor as Paul's so my guess is, that with the success with Paul after that, he may have removed it (the doctor stated that Paul's was easier to remove than repair here).

It talks about Bledsoe here, and it being unclear whether they had his meniscus removed or just repaired, but this was his FIRST meniscus tear. Paul only had the one. This article is about 3 1/2 years old but explains it pretty well.

http://www.clipsnation.com/2011/12/21/2 ... uls-knee-s

Also, does anyone know if Bledsoe's torn Meniscus was in the same knee as before, or even the same meniscus? There are two in each knee. There is a chance he has now had two of him meniscus entirely removed, though it is unclear because he won't talk about it, even though it is known that Paul had one meniscus completely removed.

You're way off on this and sadly, I speak from experience (OA in both knees, 11 surgeries and total knee replacement), hours of study for various cases I have had to handle, and hours of discussions with various orthropods who have treated me and have been experts for me. OA has many causes and it is more than cartilage degeneration around the bone. Many have OA and have never had meniscus or articular cartilage removed. Bledsoe had a partial menisectomy - a piece of his meniscus removed - he did not have a total.

His surgery was performed by Tom Carter the Suns team orthopedic surgeon. He is one of the best in the business. My partners and I know him well as we frequently use him as an expert witness. He correctly called Stoudemire and it was not repeat of the micro fracture, he had degenerative joint disease (OA) and had it from early on. Carter commented on it after the micro fracture surgery calling Stoudemire's non-micro fracture knee the worst of the two. If he has signed off on Bledsoe's for 4 or 5 years, and you can bet the Suns got his input, you can put your concerns to rest.

I don't buy this because surely he signed off on Eric Gordons knee as well. Do not want.

I do not know that he did. I did not see anything to suggest that Gordon was ever seen by Dr. Carter before Blanks signed him. Also keep in mind that Dr. Carter was inside of Bledsoe's knee. He never saw the inside of Gordon's knee. And as I understand it, Gordon's knee is structurally sound. But you can believe what you want.

[sunsbum]

You're way off on this and sadly, I speak from experience (OA in both knees, 11 surgeries and total knee replacement), hours of study for various cases I have had to handle, and hours of discussions with various orthropods who have treated me and have been experts for me. OA has many causes and it is more than cartilage degeneration around the bone. Many have OA and have never had meniscus or articular cartilage removed. Bledsoe had a partial menisectomy - a piece of his meniscus removed - he did not have a total.

His surgery was performed by Tom Carter the Suns team orthopedic surgeon. He is one of the best in the business. My partners and I know him well as we frequently use him as an expert witness. He correctly called Stoudemire and it was not repeat of the micro fracture, he had degenerative joint disease (OA) and had it from early on. Carter commented on it after the micro fracture surgery calling Stoudemire's non-micro fracture knee the worst of the two. If he has signed off on Bledsoe's for 4 or 5 years, and you can bet the Suns got his input, you can put your concerns to rest.

I don't buy this because surely he signed off on Eric Gordons knee as well. Do not want.

I do not know that he did. I did not see anything to suggest that Gordon was ever seen by Dr. Carter before Blanks signed him. Also keep in mind that Dr. Carter was inside of Bledsoe's knee. He never saw the inside of Gordon's knee. And as I understand it, Gordon's knee is structurally sound. But you can believe what you want.

Sorry for the lazy post, I'm not calling you a liar, or that Doc doesn't know what hes talking about...what I meant is I don't want EB for 5 years with no way out.

[JDLAW]

I don't buy this because surely he signed off on Eric Gordons knee as well. Do not want.

I do not know that he did. I did not see anything to suggest that Gordon was ever seen by Dr. Carter before Blanks signed him. Also keep in mind that Dr. Carter was inside of Bledsoe's knee. He never saw the inside of Gordon's knee. And as I understand it, Gordon's knee is structurally sound. But you can believe what you want.

Sorry for the lazy post, I'm not calling you a liar, or that Doc doesn't know what hes talking about...what I meant is I don't want EB for 5 years with no way out.

I accept that - I am not sure I want him at 5 years either. But you never know, look at how Minn regrets not giving Love the 5th year.

[bwgood77]

You're way off on this and sadly, I speak from experience (OA in both knees, 11 surgeries and total knee replacement), hours of study for various cases I have had to handle, and hours of discussions with various orthropods who have treated me and have been experts for me. OA has many causes and it is more than cartilage degeneration around the bone. Many have OA and have never had meniscus or articular cartilage removed. Bledsoe had a partial menisectomy - a piece of his meniscus removed - he did not have a total.

His surgery was performed by Tom Carter the Suns team orthopedic surgeon. He is one of the best in the business. My partners and I know him well as we frequently use him as an expert witness. He correctly called Stoudemire and it was not repeat of the micro fracture, he had degenerative joint disease (OA) and had it from early on. Carter commented on it after the micro fracture surgery calling Stoudemire's non-micro fracture knee the worst of the two. If he has signed off on Bledsoe's for 4 or 5 years, and you can bet the Suns got his input, you can put your concerns to rest.

Well that is definitely good to know and eases my concern quite a bit. I thought Bledsoe had a piece removed but wasn't sure. I take it he didn't have his entire meniscus removed on his first surgery?

As for me being way off, I was just speculating on what COULD be the case. People were claiming it's not serious without evidence, and I was basically claiming we didn't know. Now you have provided some evidence. I don't like jumping to any conclusions without knowing all the facts, which I'm sure you understand. Thanks for the evidence. My injury concerns with him, at least for the most part, are put to rest.

But sincerely thanks for the details. It's hard to put credibility on things people say here, so it certainly helps.

[bwgood77]

And sorry about your knees JDLAW....that sucks......was just going to edit the last post but figured you already read it and wouldn't see it.