Alex Len

[bwgood77]

I'm not sold anymore. He's not better than Chandler, and Chandler adds intangibles to our group. Williams produces more. We could draft a center with a higher ceiling, given our diminished expectations for Alex. So what's the point? I'm ready to move on.

Thanks for freeing my heart, Big Sauce.

How long do you think Chandler is going to be productive or even be in the NBA? Do you want to sign him to ANOTHER contract after his current one? Or draft another center who could take 3-5 years to develop, if a guy we draft develops at all?

As for what's the point, look two posts up from yours. He still ranks among elite company in blocks.

You change your tune on Len after a few nice games from Williams. A little over two months ago....

How many teams have a young center that can guard Embiid and Drummond? My guess is two, maybe three - us, Utah and Denver. If Porzingis is a center, that's another. Haven't watched enough of Capella - someone will have to tell me if he's strong enough to be in this category.

That's just not very many. We're all underestimating what we have in Alex - until recently, myself included. He's looked great this season.

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=1341376&start=160#p50810518

This is a week ago:

I think that likely had to do with tired legs. He'd been in the game... what, 34 minutes to that point?

The simple truth about Alex is that if he could make his shots, he'd be a max player. Heck, if he could just draw fouls more often when he went up near the rim, he'd be a top 10 center.

Even if he doesn't blow us away these last 25 games, I think he'd still be a good rotation piece for us next season. Just let him play Bogut's role - 16-18 MPG as a starter. Then use Dragan, Chriss and Williams at center, depending on matchups. That's worth a good $12 million per, I'd think.

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=1341376&start=220#p53090509

This is less than a week ago:

I think that's solid. One thing that's become clear over the stretch of games is that Williams cannot guard starting centers. He just doesn't have the height to do anything against them inside defensively.

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=1341376&start=220#p53124316

Jeez, don't you have a job? Or are you full time message board patrol?

I change my mind as new information comes in. At this point (and my views might change), I'd rather move forward with Chandler/A. Williams/[Draftee] than any other potential combo. I was tempted to write an essay explaining how and why my views have changed as they did over the course of my posts, but I'll reserve that mental energy for now. The simplest explanation is that I've seen a bunch of games in a row where Alan's outperformed Len, and those games have not included all our best games, but have included no real stinkers. I'm ready to move on from Alex AND Chandler and play Williams. I don't want to start him, and he isn't the future of the center position, but I've concluded that neither is Alex, and with two years, I expect Chandler/A. Williams/[Draftee] can turn into [Draftee]orBender/Williams and we'll be best off.

If I were the GM, you'd see my emotions and evaluations change often, but you probably wouldn't see me make quick decisions. I mean, I could keep all this dialogue about the Suns to myself, but then I wouldn't post. Is that what you want?

Simply, Alan Williams has changed a lot about my calculus for the franchise. That means Len can go and we can make room for a player who's a better fit. Today, now, that's my vote.

And what do you think about all this? The center position, that is; not my take on it. Your take!

No, I love to see your posts, but reading your posts lately about Len, I kept thinking "I don't remember him having this opinion of Len...did I forget something?" So I went back a few pages to see your posts in this thread, and it appears you had a change of heart pretty rapidly.

As for me, I'm not sure, but I'm not going to judge Len too quickly. I'd really like to see him get minutes with Ulis to see if his flow is much like that of Alan Williams with Len. Ulis just sets up players better. Instead, when Len came off the bench, who did he have play with? Brandon Knight. That says a lot to me. He should have started in his second year...everyone wanted him starting over Plumlee.

But then we signed Chandler, it relegated Len to playing off the bench with subpar backups, or later in the year, WITH Chandler.

Personally I don't think he was in a great circumstance...never really got a chance to start consistently until after the All Star break, and so he's adjusting (and shooting better the last four) but hasn't gotten many minutes, despite not playing bad, but Williams playing well with Ulis, or us going small.

I want to see Len get some minutes with Ulis. I want to give him more time to adapt to playing with the starters (He has never played much with Bledsoe...I think he started near the end of his rookie year but Bledsoe was out by then) and then we signed Chandler.

I want to see him featured in different lineups, get more minutes (though it is tough when one lineup gets hot and goes on a run which has happened in a few games lately.

I want to see more of him and I want to see what he gets offered in FA.

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

For me it comes down to confidence and how his confidence on the offensive end affects his defensive play.

I agree that it would be good to see more Ulis/Alex. They've barely played together, and in that short time, Tyler has gotten Alex some easy buckets. [My opinion could change again in a week or less! ]

[bwgood77]

For me it comes down to confidence and how his confidence on the offensive end affects his defensive play.

I agree that it would be good to see more Ulis/Alex. They've barely played together, and in that short time, Tyler has gotten Alex some easy buckets. [My opinion could change again in a week or less! ]

One more issue with Williams is that he shoots so poorly from the line (53.8%). At some point he might be such a liability at the line that people will just start fouling him.

[lilfishi22]

I don't think he's worth $15 million a year. But he hasn't been playing that badly lately. His rebounding per minute is down a bit, but we've all seen he usually does better with rebounds when he gets into the groove. Offensively he has improved, and shot over 52% from the field that last 4 games and 90% from the line.

It's just they are giving Williams a longer look going into free agency and going small ball a bit more often, because it's proved successful against smaller teams. Both the Hornets and Celtics were missing their starting centers so we didn't need Alex lately.

I admit Williams has been pretty impressive though. I don't think with a few games we should suddenly think Alex is expendable though. I need to see more.

Maybe the question is answered for us though and Brooklyn offers Len a big deal that isn't worth matching.

I was comfortable with up to $16m which is what I thought his market value was but since the all-star break, he just hasn't looked that great. As you have noticed I'm very up and down when it comes to Len. I tend to be more of an optimist when it comes to him but with the emergence of Big Sauce, letting Len go or trading him is something we could put on the table. I'm not necessarily saying keeping Williams over Len means we won't skip a beat because we'll definitely take a hit but considering the financial commitment we'll have to make, would taking a small hit be better than committing to Len?

I don't think it's just the team giving Williams a longer look, I think it's also the fact that he fits our team offense and defense better. I know it's a fairly simple stat but Big Sauce has logged 4 positive +/- games in 6 games whereas Len hasn't logged a single one. We still have a little under 20 games to evaluate but with Len having 4 full seasons to prove himself to be productive and consistent, it's been a major disappointment.

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

No, I love to see your posts, but reading your posts lately about Len, I kept thinking "I don't remember him having this opinion of Len...did I forget something?" So I went back a few pages to see your posts in this thread, and it appears you had a change of heart pretty rapidly.

As for me, I'm not sure, but I'm not going to judge Len too quickly. I'd really like to see him get minutes with Ulis to see if his flow is much like that of Alan Williams with Len. Ulis just sets up players better. Instead, when Len came off the bench, who did he have play with? Brandon Knight. That says a lot to me. He should have started in his second year...everyone wanted him starting over Plumlee.

But then we signed Chandler, it relegated Len to playing off the bench with subpar backups, or later in the year, WITH Chandler.

Personally I don't think he was in a great circumstance...never really got a chance to start consistently until after the All Star break, and so he's adjusting (and shooting better the last four) but hasn't gotten many minutes, despite not playing bad, but Williams playing well with Ulis, or us going small.

I want to see Len get some minutes with Ulis. I want to give him more time to adapt to playing with the starters (He has never played much with Bledsoe...I think he started near the end of his rookie year but Bledsoe was out by then) and then we signed Chandler.

I want to see him featured in different lineups, get more minutes (though it is tough when one lineup gets hot and goes on a run which has happened in a few games lately.

I want to see more of him and I want to see what he gets offered in FA.

All of this is reasonable to me; I don't disagree.

Part of my change of heart with Len has been Robert Williams, and part of it has been my disappointment in Len's play as a starter. It just seems to me that he's run out of time. I still think he's better than Chandler. If there were another team or two in need of a center, I could see Alex getting $10-12 mil. But with Dallas acquiring Noel, Portland acquiring Nurkic and BKN holding onto Lopez, it becomes hard to see. I might feel a bit different if I thought Tyson could be traded for space and a couple seconds. I don't see that either.

[bwgood77]

No, I love to see your posts, but reading your posts lately about Len, I kept thinking "I don't remember him having this opinion of Len...did I forget something?" So I went back a few pages to see your posts in this thread, and it appears you had a change of heart pretty rapidly.

As for me, I'm not sure, but I'm not going to judge Len too quickly. I'd really like to see him get minutes with Ulis to see if his flow is much like that of Alan Williams with Len. Ulis just sets up players better. Instead, when Len came off the bench, who did he have play with? Brandon Knight. That says a lot to me. He should have started in his second year...everyone wanted him starting over Plumlee.

But then we signed Chandler, it relegated Len to playing off the bench with subpar backups, or later in the year, WITH Chandler.

Personally I don't think he was in a great circumstance...never really got a chance to start consistently until after the All Star break, and so he's adjusting (and shooting better the last four) but hasn't gotten many minutes, despite not playing bad, but Williams playing well with Ulis, or us going small.

I want to see Len get some minutes with Ulis. I want to give him more time to adapt to playing with the starters (He has never played much with Bledsoe...I think he started near the end of his rookie year but Bledsoe was out by then) and then we signed Chandler.

I want to see him featured in different lineups, get more minutes (though it is tough when one lineup gets hot and goes on a run which has happened in a few games lately.

I want to see more of him and I want to see what he gets offered in FA.

All of this is reasonable to me; I don't disagree.

Part of my change of heart with Len has been Robert Williams, and part of it has been my disappointment in Len's play as a starter. It just seems to me that he's run out of time. I still think he's better than Chandler. If there were another team or two in need of a center, I could see Alex getting $10-12 mil. But with Dallas acquiring Noel, Portland acquiring Nurkic and BKN holding onto Lopez, it becomes hard to see. I might feel a bit different if I thought Tyson could be traded for space and a couple seconds. I don't see that either.

I think the contract we most need to get rid of is Knight's. If we can deal Tyson fine, but I wouldn't mind keeping them all and going into next season with the depth and leadership, and then assessing trade value after Len's contract is in place, and see what Chandler is worth. A vet team with their C down might want Tyson next year with only a year and a half on the contract. Len might really be trade-able if we have him on a reasonable deal.

If we can just find a taker for Knight, but that's got to be tough when he's not even good enough to play for a squad with the third worst record.

[Christine-In-AZ]

If the Suns use this draft to fill a hole that is created by them giving up on Len?..

[MrMiyagi]

If the Suns use this draft to fill a hole that is created by them giving up on Len?..

I just want them to "give up" on Len. There is no center in this draft worth a top 5 pick IMO, unless you consider Markannen a center.

[TOO]

If the Suns use this draft to fill a hole that is created by them giving up on Len?..

I just want them to "give up" on Len. There is no center in this draft worth a top 5 pick IMO, unless you consider Markannen a center.

That would be something... We would then have the privilege of hoping our PF/C combo could gather 10 combined rebounds per game.

[LukasBMW]

I don't understand why Alex hasn't developed in the last couple years, and in some departments has clearly gotten worse, but I have to fall back on one statistic for keeping him...He's 23 years old.

If he only garners 9,10, 11 million per year offers this summer, McD is an idiot if he lets him just walk. His physical attributes, past performance and age alone means there is still great potential. If he were 27 or 28 I could understand the rationale of letting him walk, especially if the offer sheet was considerable.

He's twenty-freaking-three!

I pretty much agree.

Additionally, look at what Miles Plumlee and Tim Mozgov got. The going rate for centers is 10-15 mil a year. Some team is going to throw 40-60 million over 4 years at Len. The mindset will be: We either overpaid for a backup center or we underpaid for a starting center.

If Sauce sticks around at only 4 mil a year, I'm actually more willing to pay Len big bucks. Sauce becomes our insurance plan.

[LukasBMW]

But if anyone maxes him, they can keep him. Lol.

[sunsbum]

I'm pretty much over Len *AT MARKET PRICE*. I've always preached that Len should be given more time as bigs take longer to develop but I don't see a Hassan Whiteside situation with Alex, he's just not that good and has shown 0 improvement offensively. I don't like sauce as a starter and I don't like Len as a starter...heck I'm not even sure I like Chriss as a starter *right now*. McD has yet another challenging off season ahead of him. Do you keep Bledsoe and possibly get burned by his knees in the future? Do you overpay Alex Len for his defensive presence? What in the world do we draft with so many guards and small forwards at the top.

[bwgood77]

I'm pretty much over Len *AT MARKET PRICE*. I've always preached that Len should be given more time as bigs take longer to develop but I don't see a Hassan Whiteside situation with Alex, he's just not that good and has shown 0 improvement offensively. I don't like sauce as a starter and I don't like Len as a starter...heck I'm not even sure I like Chriss as a starter *right now*. McD has yet another challenging off season ahead of him. Do you keep Bledsoe and possibly get burned by his knees in the future? Do you overpay Alex Len for his defensive presence? What in the world do we draft with so many guards and small forwards at the top.

We pay Len for his defense, unless the price is too much. Our defense is terrible, so the more + defenders we have the better. If we get rid of Tyson and sign Williams at a reasonable contract, even taking a rookie C on a rookie contract will not be investing too much in our C rotation. We certainly don't need a more offensive oriented C who can't play D or protect the rim. Few of the top teams even have those. Most of the top teams either have a great rebounder, shot blocker or both.

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

If the Suns use this draft to fill a hole that is created by them giving up on Len?..

OK, OK y'all make a good point.

As for me, I'm not sure, but I'm not going to judge Len too quickly. I'd really like to see him get minutes with Ulis to see if his flow is much like that of Alan Williams with Len. Ulis just sets up players better. Instead, when Len came off the bench, who did he have play with? Brandon Knight. [...]

I want to see Len get some minutes with Ulis. I want to give him more time to adapt to playing with the starters (He has never played much with Bledsoe...I think he started near the end of his rookie year but Bledsoe was out by then) and then we signed Chandler.

I want to see him featured in different lineups, get more minutes (though it is tough when one lineup gets hot and goes on a run which has happened in a few games lately.

I want to see more of him and I want to see what he gets offered in FA. [...]

I think the contract we most need to get rid of is Knight's. If we can deal Tyson fine, but I wouldn't mind keeping them all and going into next season with the depth and leadership, and then assessing trade value after Len's contract is in place, and see what Chandler is worth. A vet team with their C down might want Tyson next year with only a year and a half on the contract. Len might really be trade-able if we have him on a reasonable deal.

I guess this isn't a possibility I really considered. My big worry is that Williams is actually deserving of the most minutes of the three. Both Tyson and Alex are going to want to play. We can't play both - will we have them alternate?

"Big men take more time." I know, I know. And players with Alex's combination of size and athleticism aren't that common. Okay. I'll chill with this idea. Too much depends on where we draft anyways. If we did somehow get a top 3 pick, all of this discussion goes to the backburner.

[kennydorglas]

I think our coaching staff (and in some point our front office) had super high expectations on Len.
He can do the 'Gobert/Adams role' but he was just asked to do MUCH MORE.

Remember when they were saying he'd starting shooting 3's in SL?
He went to the 'Duncan camp' to train his post moves but u cant do anything with zero touch..

It's been a really tough learning experience for anyone, we just need to be aware that our expectations impact HEAVILY on our prospects.


Just to add a different perspective, just look at how Watson 'molded' Big Sauce in the league.
He just told him: "Get some floaters and baby some hooks and THAT's IT".
I wonder what'd happened if we did this on DAY 1 with Alex. It's just too late now.

[DRK]

"Big men take time" but yet Alan Williams can come in and play significant minutes at short notice and average a double double?

Some players just have a good basketball instinct. Sauce is one, as he knows how to use his body and get into positions that give him an advantage despite his limited physical tools. Its obvious Sauce has been taught well from youth and understands the game.

Len on the other hand looks like he learnt how to play basketball by reading a textbook.

[bwgood77]

"Big men take time" but yet Alan Williams can come in and play significant minutes at short notice and average a double double?

Some players just have a good basketball instinct. Sauce is one, as he knows how to use his body and get into positions that give him an advantage despite his limited physical tools. Its obvious Sauce has been taught well from youth and understands the game.

Len on the other hand looks like he learnt how to play basketball by reading a textbook.

He also played 4 years in college and then played major minutes overseas last year and is older than Len. He just came into the league more seasoned.

Williams has only really played well against teams without terrible defensive bigs off the bench (Kanter) or teams with injured bigs (Horford, Zeller). He did not play well against Memphis (-16) or Mahinmi who had a +38, 15 points, 9 rebounds, and 7 steals while Williams fouled out.

Still need more of a sample size.

[Saberestar]

"Big men take time" but yet Alan Williams can come in and play significant minutes at short notice and average a double double?

Some players just have a good basketball instinct. Sauce is one, as he knows how to use his body and get into positions that give him an advantage despite his limited physical tools. Its obvious Sauce has been taught well from youth and understands the game.

Len on the other hand looks like he learnt how to play basketball by reading a textbook.

He also played 4 years in college and then played major minutes overseas last year and is older than Len. He just came into the league more seasoned.

Williams has only really played well against teams without terrible defensive bigs off the bench (Kanter) or teams with injured bigs (Horford, Zeller). He did not play well against Memphis (-16) or Mahinmi who had a +38, 15 points, 9 rebounds, and 7 steals while Williams fouled out.

Still need more of a sample size.

Yeah, Alan Williams is nearly 6 months older than Len.

[MilotheSlayer]

He also played 4 years in college and then played major minutes overseas last year and is older than Len. He just came into the league more seasoned.

Still need more of a sample size.

I wouldn't say he's more seasoned than Len. 4 years of college ball and a season overseas in my opinion doesn't equate to Len's almost 4 years in the NBA. Granted his rookie year was cut short. With what he's shown it scares me to pay him based on potential still, and while I do want him to stay in PHX, paying him what market value will be absolutely terrifies me.

[bwgood77]

He also played 4 years in college and then played major minutes overseas last year and is older than Len. He just came into the league more seasoned.

Still need more of a sample size.

I wouldn't say he's more seasoned than Len. 4 years of college ball and a season overseas in my opinion doesn't equate to Len's almost 4 years in the NBA. Granted his rookie year was cut short. With what he's shown it scares me to pay him based on potential still, and while I do want him to stay in PHX, paying him what market value will be absolutely terrifies me.

I said he "came into the league more seasoned than Len..." not necessarily that he was more seasoned right now.

We just have no idea what market value will be until he hits the market and his value is determined. Being mostly a bench guy or a starter with limited minutes, may not see a huge market for him given the fact that there seem to be a lot of centers.

But I'm not really talking about paying him for potential as much as to be a solid rim protecting/rebounding big. This he is already good at. We don't need him for offense.