Game 39: Miami Heat (21-14) @ Phoenix Suns (13-25)

[Qwigglez]

So Booker scored 11 points in a minute and 10 seconds. What sucks is he should have gotten the next shot after the timeout for a heat check, but I believe Knight hoisted a mid-range jumper (and missed).
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyAYzKuewyI[/youtube]

[RunDogGun]

So Booker scored 11 points in a minute and 10 seconds. What sucks is he should have gotten the next shot after the timeout for a heat check, but I believe Knight hoisted a mid-range jumper (and missed).
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyAYzKuewyI[/youtube]

That was a great run, because he was having trouble early. Which is a good sign to see our young guys fight through rough starts.

[Funky Tut]

We will land outside of the top 5 in the draft I bet. Oh and man, when the hell was the last time we beat the Heat?

[bwgood77]

We'd be bankrupt if Jerry still owned the team. He would have had to have sold the team at some point. It's unfortunate that there is a business side to it, huh?

We didn't have too big of a problem financially until Boris, LB(not a bad contract, but came at the same time), and Banks got their contracts. We could have handled KT's contract if Mike didn't do such a bad job GMing. Oh well, it has sucked who Sarver has put basketball decisions up to.

It was Kerr who dealt KT... but the Banks signing >.. good lord... I remember reading about him holed up in his room crying because he was one of the very last FAs left... and we dumped a 16 mill lotto ticket on him ...sheesh.

The beginning of the corrosive management maneuvers ?

Did you ever read about JerryC's sweeeeet leasing deal he had with the arena ? I don't remember the particulars but it was a rosy one.

I know Kerr dealt KT, where did I say he didn't, or said someone else did? I was speaking about the deals that Mike did as GM that also caused the salaries to be high, making KT the best choice to trade to keep us at the cap. For example , signing an out of shape Boris, Rushing out to get Piat, signing Banks and then not play him. The LB extension was good, but that was another expense besides KT's salary. (Those were all under Mike, right?) Overall there were multiple previous signings that put over the cap, just as much as having KT's deal. I think if we hadn't dealt either the Rondo or Sergio pgs we picked in that draft, and not signed Banks to that contract, it would have saved us $3 million. More could have been creatively handled. It seemed as if it was handled poorly.

I remember hearing about some deal, but no I don't know the details. I don't hate Jerry, but he made bad decisions to as an owner, that many gloss over to bad mouth the current. He had to choose to not be the owner, so his own doing lead him to sell the team, one was the huge debt he created. He wasn't a perfect owner. If he was, he have kept the team.

When I mention the Q signing leading to the Kurt trade, I don't mention some of those other bonehead moves made by D'Antoni as a GM because it hurts to mention the MAIN thing about signing Q was that we didn't extend JJ and therefore didn't keep him the following summer. This is painful to think about, so yes, we ended up, in that place paying Diaw. Of course all the extensions were in my head. The Banks signing ended up being terrible even though it was only $4 million a year or so.

It's too bad you don't see Jerry as a great owner because he "created" a debt. He made many questionable personnel decisions (Hot Rod, Longley, etc) but just because he wasn't a billionaire from other revenue sources who could afford to own a pro basketball team doesn't make him a bad owner. He was built in large part through basketball. The spike in team values early after the 90s left it quite impossible to keep raising funds from outside investors for small percentages of the team.

As you mention all of D'Antoni's moves being a problem, that was part in result of Sarver ousting the Colangelos..then you mention Kerr...sure he had to get rid of Kurt Thomas due to moves by prior regimes but he also made the terrible Shaq trade. Then after Kerr Sarver hires Babby and Blanks.

Colangelo made mistakes that were frustrating but left us the Nash-led Suns....subsequent to that, I don't know if you find what we have become impressive, but I don't think most people do outside of maybe a draft pick or two in recent years.

[SunsRback4Good]

We will land outside of the top 5 in the draft I bet. Oh and man, when the hell was the last time we beat the Heat?

It was a cold winter in 93...

[Saberestar]

When the game ended, Sarver did not take Dragic’s handshake offer.

http://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/nba/suns/2016/01/09/suns-downed-former-players-miami-heat/78528566/

That was a classless move by Sarver.

This organization have serious problems dealing with people...it is not a good thing by any means.

[JMac1]

Archie sucks. The reason Price plays is a demand to try to get to playoffs and not to use game time to develop guys who are terrible and will likely never see a 2nd nba contract.

Still? Nah, not anymore.

Yeah, pretty much out of the question, but McD and Horny concerned about their jobs. Also helps the young guys get confidence if we don't get in a big hole early, and that lineup to start helped, and the young guys still got a lot of minutes, except (I wish I could play in the NBA and wish I could have won a game in the NIT leading Kentucky) Archie Goodwin.

Not that Miami will be an easy game. If Whiteside plays we might not get many rebounds and might see a lot of blocked shots. But these guys might not be ready to go against Bosh and Wade yet, though I guess we played ok against OKC.

Nice UCLA win btw....made you sweat a little...did your temper rise a bit there at the end?

Our Basketball team is just as unpredictable as our football team.

[JMac1]

If Len could just become a defensive minded center and hit the elbow jumper consistently, he is a keeper. Don't feed him in the post. I like Telly off of the bench as a gunner. TJ has been getting lost lately. I enjoyed the game of course................Booker played 37 minutes.

[RunDogGun]

It was Kerr who dealt KT... but the Banks signing >.. good lord... I remember reading about him holed up in his room crying because he was one of the very last FAs left... and we dumped a 16 mill lotto ticket on him ...sheesh.

The beginning of the corrosive management maneuvers ?

Did you ever read about JerryC's sweeeeet leasing deal he had with the arena ? I don't remember the particulars but it was a rosy one.

I know Kerr dealt KT, where did I say he didn't, or said someone else did? I was speaking about the deals that Mike did as GM that also caused the salaries to be high, making KT the best choice to trade to keep us at the cap. For example , signing an out of shape Boris, Rushing out to get Piat, signing Banks and then not play him. The LB extension was good, but that was another expense besides KT's salary. (Those were all under Mike, right?) Overall there were multiple previous signings that put over the cap, just as much as having KT's deal. I think if we hadn't dealt either the Rondo or Sergio pgs we picked in that draft, and not signed Banks to that contract, it would have saved us $3 million. More could have been creatively handled. It seemed as if it was handled poorly.

I remember hearing about some deal, but no I don't know the details. I don't hate Jerry, but he made bad decisions to as an owner, that many gloss over to bad mouth the current. He had to choose to not be the owner, so his own doing lead him to sell the team, one was the huge debt he created. He wasn't a perfect owner. If he was, he have kept the team.

When I mention the Q signing leading to the Kurt trade, I don't mention some of those other bonehead moves made by D'Antoni as a GM because it hurts to mention the MAIN thing about signing Q was that we didn't extend JJ and therefore didn't keep him the following summer. This is painful to think about, so yes, we ended up, in that place paying Diaw. Of course all the extensions were in my head. The Banks signing ended up being terrible even though it was only $4 million a year or so.

It's too bad you don't see Jerry as a great owner because he "created" a debt. He made many questionable personnel decisions (Hot Rod, Longley, etc) but just because he wasn't a billionaire from other revenue sources who could afford to own a pro basketball team doesn't make him a bad owner. He was built in large part through basketball. The spike in team values early after the 90s left it quite impossible to keep raising funds from outside investors for small percentages of the team.

As you mention all of D'Antoni's moves being a problem, that was part in result of Sarver ousting the Colangelos..then you mention Kerr...sure he had to get rid of Kurt Thomas due to moves by prior regimes but he also made the terrible Shaq trade. Then after Kerr Sarver hires Babby and Blanks.

Colangelo made mistakes that were frustrating but left us the Nash-led Suns....subsequent to that, I don't know if you find what we have become impressive, but I don't think most people do outside of maybe a draft pick or two in recent years.

Like I said, Sarver hasn't made the best choices when hiring basketball related decision making people.

It's not that I don't see the good things Jerry did, but the debt is a huge thing. It was so big, he HAD to sell the team. So that one action led to Sarver having to bail out Jerry and the Suns. The team could have easily been sold to an owner who felt it would be better to move to a new city, one with a better home crowd, similar to what Seatle did. Granted OKC created that move when they hosted the NOH after Katrina hit, but they used a somewhat college crowd atmosphere (where the whole crowd stands until NOH then OKC scores). But there are most likely other big cities that could be like this.

Overall, I think many just remember good things from Jerry, which forces me to say, that there were bad as well, one of which was a very poor handling of finances which lead to the sale in the first place. Plus Sarver gets a bad rap at times (some warranted).

Then if we are talking Bryan, what did he do for Toronto?

The Banks deal was 4 yrs $21 million, which now a days doesn't look too bad, but rarely ever playing him, and yanking him whenever he made a mistake, made it seem as if Banks was walking on eggshells out there. So his value went down greatly. And even though he put up 42 in a SL game, his value ended up only being a filler for the Shaq trade. Banks was underutilized by the same guy who over spent on him. Mike really should have turned to Banks to cover Parker in the game after the suspensions, instead of going back to Marion, who was our only offensive weapon. It ended up gassing out Marion, and while the Spurs seemed on the ropes the whole game, seized control of the game, and the rest of the series. Banks had shown to have his moments leading into that offseason in the GSW game, where we were being blown out, and a Banks lead squad brought us back.

Oh well, nothing we can do about the past, except learn what not to do in the future. So while many want Sarver to sell the team, I'd rather he learn from his mistakes, and become a better owner. The next owner could be even worse, having to relearn mistakes of his/her own. And with how bad our home crowd is, zero chips, could easily see another destination as a better business choice.

[Mulhollanddrive]

If that report is true about Sarver and Dragic wouldn't surprise me.

Forget about trades and free agency to get the next star player, there's not a reason to come here on or off court.

Simmons or bust for the next 15 years.

If that sounds bleak, pretty sure a lot of the top teams like Clippers, Cavs, OKC etc would still be sh-t without their draft luck too.

In a way it's better for the franchise to be decided by ping pong balls and other team's scouting, than our mis-management.

We got what we deserved with Green and Dragic playing well, technical mistake with signing 3 PGs and rotation / ball handling setups and people management mistake that is too much of a trend to be just a few brats.

[Saberestar]

If that report is true about Sarver and Dragic wouldn't surprise me.

Forget about trades and free agency to get the next star player, there's not a reason to come here on or off court.

Simmons or bust for the next 15 years.

If that sounds bleak, pretty sure a lot of the top teams like Clippers, Cavs, OKC etc would still be sh-t without their draft luck too.

In a way it's better for the franchise to be decided by ping pong balls and other team's scouting, than our management.

The good thing about that is that Ingram can be a franchise player too...so it's Simmons / Ingram or bust.

[AtheJ415]

So Booker scored 11 points in a minute and 10 seconds. What sucks is he should have gotten the next shot after the timeout for a heat check, but I believe Knight hoisted a mid-range jumper (and missed).
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyAYzKuewyI[/youtube]

I hate heat checks, but I do believe in feeding hot hands. Just don't want them throwing up heat checks. For instance, Gerald was much better last night and for a portion of this year because he seems to have removed those.

Knight needs to be at 12-15 shots a game. I don't know how Jeff's not keeping that in check. If you look at Archie's statline also it's not as if we had no other option last night. I just don't believe the way to teach someone what a good shot and a bad shot is is to play them league leading minutes. Popovich would bench him after every long 2 or contested shot until he adjusted. He's not a youngster who needs to work through problems like a 19 or 22 year old. I know his teammates much of the time are offensively inept, and probably 4 of his jumpers each game are when the shot clock is running down, but still he should be more effective than he is given his talent level and how easy some of these would be to fix under a disciplined coach.

[AtheJ415]

If that report is true about Sarver and Dragic wouldn't surprise me.

Forget about trades and free agency to get the next star player, there's not a reason to come here on or off court.

Simmons or bust for the next 15 years.

If that sounds bleak, pretty sure a lot of the top teams like Clippers, Cavs, OKC etc would still be sh-t without their draft luck too.

In a way it's better for the franchise to be decided by ping pong balls and other team's scouting, than our management.

The good thing about that is that Ingram can be a franchise player too...so it's Simmons / Ingram or bust.

The thing is, even with down drafts, there are always going to be really useful guys coming out of it. For instance, 3 years ago, Oladipo, Gorbert, McCollum, Len, Noel, and Adams just off the top of my head are guys any team could use, and that was supposed to be the worst draft ever.

We draft well, and I'm sure even if we fall outside the top group we can't find someone who can help us. I like ingram more the more I watch him, so I am starting to agree there.

[rsavaj]

Sarver not shaking Goran's hands is effing ridiculous.

Really enjoyable game to watch. Booker was fantastic. Archie had his best game of the season. Knight was aggressive, but still inefficient.

Chandler/Len were pretty useless. Not sure what's going on with either of them.

Fun post-game note...Coro says Amare wouldn't rule-out returning to Phoenix next year.

[pidi]

That was all Ball

[letsgosuns]

Say what you guys want you about Dragic but if you compare Knight's stat line & Dragic's stat line side by side, Dragic completely outplayed Knight. Knight again with his usual high turnover, low assist, and high-volume shot attempts. And he did not come up when it mattered most.

In one game, tonight, sure. But I'll take Knight, please and thank you. That's right, no purple font.

Yup. Dragic had a good game today, better than Knight, but Dragic doesn't play like this every game. You have to be completely blind to think he's having anything other than an awful season. If he doesn't pick it up over the course of his contract, he will soon have the worst contract in all of basketball.

I never said Dragic was having a good season. I think he might have the worst contract in basketball. All I said was that he outplayed Knight. That is surprising considering how bad Dragic has played this year. Yet he comes to Phoenix and plays an excellent all around game and does it against the guy that replaced him. A combination of motivation and Knight's bad defense.

My point is that I do not like Dragic or Knight. At all. I like point guards that have the ability to run an offense. That is Knight's biggest weakness. I literally cringe when Knight dribbles the entire clock and takes an ill-advised shot or makes a stupid play and loses the ball. It happens so often it is crazy.

[letsgosuns]

Anyone criticizing Warren needs to take this into account. He was put in the starting lineup and had an amazing game against the Thunder. Superstar numbers. 29 pts, 9 rbs, 3 ast, 4 stl, and 0 to. He follows that up with a pretty good game against the Kings. Suddenly he is taken out of the starting lineup against the Lakers of all teams. How do you think he feels? Probably confused. What more is he supposed to do to prove he belongs in the starting lineup.

Hornacek is a moron. Starting Tucker over Warren is like starting Bo Outlaw over Amare Stoudemire. Oh let's start the veteran player who hustles because we need his effort out there. Forget the fact that the young player runs circles around the veteran in terms of talent. The old experienced player is so important to this team right? Please.

What a joke. I guess Tucker's eleven rebounds and incredible defense really impacted the outcome of the game right. Nevermind that he only scored five points and shot 2-7 and missed both his three point attempts. SIT THIS GUY DOWN AND START WARREN AND LET HIM PLAY 35 MINUTES A GAME EVERY GAME HORNACEK. You idiot. Tucker has no business starting on a terrible team. Everyone knows it. This entire season should be about developing the young guys and Hornacek still plays games as if he needs veterans out there fighting for the 8th seed of the playoffs. Newsflash! The Suns suck. Get over it and do what is right and play the young guys.

[jcsunsfan]

So Booker scored 11 points in a minute and 10 seconds. What sucks is he should have gotten the next shot after the timeout for a heat check, but I believe Knight hoisted a mid-range jumper (and missed).
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyAYzKuewyI[/youtube]

Loved him posting up Goran. Made Goran look silly.

[jcsunsfan]

Anyone criticizing Warren needs to take this into account. He was put in the starting lineup and had an amazing game against the Thunder. Superstar numbers. 29 pts, 9 rbs, 3 ast, 4 stl, and 0 to. He follows that up with a pretty good game against the Kings. Suddenly he is taken out of the starting lineup against the Lakers of all teams. How do you think he feels? Probably confused. What more is he supposed to do to prove he belongs in the starting lineup.

Hornacek is a moron. Starting Tucker over Warren is like starting Bo Outlaw over Amare Stoudemire. Oh let's start the veteran player who hustles because we need his effort out there. Forget the fact that the young player runs circles around the veteran in terms of talent. The old experienced player is so important to this team right? Please.

What a joke. I guess Tucker's eleven rebounds and incredible defense really impacted the outcome of the game right. Nevermind that he only scored five points and shot 2-7 and missed both his three point attempts. SIT THIS GUY DOWN AND START WARREN AND LET HIM PLAY 35 MINUTES A GAME EVERY GAME HORNACEK. You idiot. Tucker has no business starting on a terrible team. Everyone knows it. This entire season should be about developing the young guys and Hornacek still plays games as if he needs veterans out there fighting for the 8th seed of the playoffs. Newsflash! The Suns suck. Get over it and do what is right and play the young guys.

Dude. YOu do not know what is going on behind the scenes. This is a tough, physically demanding league. That was an incredible stretch by Warren, but he could be nursing some bumps and bruises as well as having his legs going. Warren is good at a lot of things, but he has struggled with stamina back to his NC State days. Warren is getting plenty of minutes.

[letsgosuns]

Anyone criticizing Warren needs to take this into account. He was put in the starting lineup and had an amazing game against the Thunder. Superstar numbers. 29 pts, 9 rbs, 3 ast, 4 stl, and 0 to. He follows that up with a pretty good game against the Kings. Suddenly he is taken out of the starting lineup against the Lakers of all teams. How do you think he feels? Probably confused. What more is he supposed to do to prove he belongs in the starting lineup.

Hornacek is a moron. Starting Tucker over Warren is like starting Bo Outlaw over Amare Stoudemire. Oh let's start the veteran player who hustles because we need his effort out there. Forget the fact that the young player runs circles around the veteran in terms of talent. The old experienced player is so important to this team right? Please.

What a joke. I guess Tucker's eleven rebounds and incredible defense really impacted the outcome of the game right. Nevermind that he only scored five points and shot 2-7 and missed both his three point attempts. SIT THIS GUY DOWN AND START WARREN AND LET HIM PLAY 35 MINUTES A GAME EVERY GAME HORNACEK. You idiot. Tucker has no business starting on a terrible team. Everyone knows it. This entire season should be about developing the young guys and Hornacek still plays games as if he needs veterans out there fighting for the 8th seed of the playoffs. Newsflash! The Suns suck. Get over it and do what is right and play the young guys.

Dude. YOu do not know what is going on behind the scenes. This is a tough, physically demanding league. That was an incredible stretch by Warren, but he could be nursing some bumps and bruises as well as having his legs going. Warren is good at a lot of things, but he has struggled with stamina back to his NC State days. Warren is getting plenty of minutes.

Idk about that. Look at Warren's last five games in minutes. 41, and 36 as a starter and then he was benched and had 21, 37, and 19. He should never be below thirty minutes. It seems more like Hornacek plays him depending on if he is scoring or not. Hornacek's biggest problem is not letting young players play through mistakes. If they have a bad two minute stretch he pulls them from the game. The only reason Goodwin played last night is because Price was injured. And looked how well Goodwin did. He deserves to play.

In three years, Hornacek has proven one thing. He is not a coach that develops players well. The only reason Booker gets time is because Bledsoe is injured. Goodwin has been on the team for three years and hardly ever plays. Warren barely played last year. Len's playing time is not consistent either.

The minutes should be like this imo: 35+ for Booker, 20+ for Goodwin backing up Booker and/or playing backup point guard alongside Booker, Warren 35+ minutes, Len 25+ minutes. I could not care less about anyone else's playing time on the team. I would trade each and every other player on the team without hesitation for picks and/or young players with potential. The season is over and the only thing that matters is developing all the young guys and getting the best draft pick they can. And that is not intentionally tanking either. The reality is that you usually do not win many games playing 19-23 year olds so naturally you expect to lose. But you do it because the hope is that they get good enough to start winning very soon.