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2017 Draft Discussion Part 4: 3 Day Countdown!

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Re: Draft Discussion Part 4: 3 Day Countdown! 

Post#261 » by JMac1 » Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:32 pm

cosmofizzo wrote:One of the year's must-listen podcasts - Pelton on Dunc'd On: http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/246338/Duncd-On-David-Griffin-Out-in-CLE;-Projecting-the-2017-Draft-with-Kevin-Pelton

KP's big board:

1 Ball
2 Fultz
3 Isaac
4 DSJ
5 Jackson
6 Fox
7 Anunoby
8 Tatum
9 Z. Collins
10 Monk
11 Markkanen
12 Mitchell
13 Hart

Some notes:

- Nate Duncan and KP are on the same page of DSJ > Fox. Despite ranking Fox (and JJ and Tatum) much higher than his stats suggest, KP is very scared of Fox because of shooting concerns.
- I have yet to see any advanced stat metric that doesn't have Isaac near the top. One big plus KP has in Isaac's favor over Tatum and Jackson is the fact that he'll play the 4 in time; one big minus for Jackson is his age (1 year older than other freshmen). Also worth noting that Duncan in his previous podcast with his usual partner (Danny something?) had Isaac way ahead of Tatum and Jackson.


Everyone has an opinion, but since he is in the minority.... big time, and I disagree with him bigtime, I won't listen to him in the future.
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Re: Draft Discussion Part 4: 3 Day Countdown! 

Post#262 » by SlovenianDragon » Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:33 pm

1UPZ wrote:
SlovenianDragon wrote:
Saberestar wrote:
Read on Twitter


Who are Pick and Young?



umm.. Pick(s) as in draft picks...

Young as in Young Players from their team.

Teams are calling Lakers to offer to absorb Deng or Mozgov but Lakers need to give pick(s) or Young players.


WHOA, I learned so much today...
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Re: Draft Discussion Part 4: 3 Day Countdown! 

Post#263 » by Saberestar » Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:35 pm

Two days until the draft!!!
TWO.****.DAYS.
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Re: Draft Discussion Part 4: 3 Day Countdown! 

Post#264 » by Qwigglez » Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:38 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
RunSunRun wrote:Fox seems like an obvious smokescreen, don't think it will make the Kings nervous at this point...maybe if we were high on Fox since the beginning it might have worked.

I admit I'm starting to come around on buying into Isaac's potential high ceiling, but I still have him behind Jackson and Tatum.


For potential high ceiling, this is a good watch..shows some interesting stuff.

;t=222s


Oh man, for a highlight reel tape, it is very underwhelming. I'm going to post what I find underwhelming...

0:49 - Okay good, he opens up the zone defense with a hard jab fake, goes left. Defender who doesn't look very athletic at all is able to recover, forces Isaac to go back to his dominant hand with a fade away in the paint. Actually think defense did well to recover, Isaac just made a tough shot.
0:56 - What's that? Another hard jab to the right only to drive in the paint going left, being cut off again by his smaller quicker defender. Another fade away jumper in the paint. Same exact move, however it yields the same result, so you can't argue. His gather is relatively slow IMO for someone who is supposedly quick for NBA standards.
1:04 - At least this time he didn't do the hard jab, though it was a similar move, a fake pass that has him driving in the paint using his left hand. He throws up a prayer from the free throw line with two guards reaching in, but the ball goes in. I think he could have easily taken another step and had a clearer shot in the paint.
1:30 - Have the big man isolated in the post, but jacks up a straight away three. I think straight away threes are the least likely of threes to go in. Early in the shot clock, and it goes in with the bank. I doubt he called it. (Yes I'm being nitpicky!)
1:47 - Grabs the rebound, brings the ball up the court. Take a long contested two early in the shot clock. Brandon Knight does this!
Next play, another slight jab to the right, takes one dribble and takes the mid range jumper. Again, big man had the post isolated. Easily could have dumped it off for an easy bucket. Though, maybe their big man sucks so he doesn't pass to him.
4:38 - Another right jab followed up by a one dribble pull-up.

He is too mechanical with his handles and is very very predictable. These highlights aren't showing enough creativeness for me. He did make some nice layups here and there, made some jumpers, and blocked some shots, but nothing that wows or excited me enough to warrant picking him at 4. At 4, I want someone that can potentially change our franchise around. Isaac seems to be a Marvin Williams kind of player, maybe a good glue guy / solid role player for a playoff team.
I will say, he does have very good shooting form.
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Re: Draft Discussion Part 4: 3 Day Countdown! 

Post#265 » by JMac1 » Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:42 pm

Two days out. After tons of speculation, vids, posts, and reports on workouts, I think we should go with either Jackson or Tatum ( I hope Boston chooses one). I could live with either being a bust more than I can with Fox and Isaac. Who knows at the end of the day, but I see more good with Tatum and Jackson, then Fox and last Isaac.

I'm going off of, who's positives standout on video more than their negatives, and IMO it's Tatum and Jackson.

Edit: if not for the injury concern, I'd have DSJ ranked number 2 overall!! I avoid his highlights like the plague, because I salivate when watching, however, that ACL is coming back to haunt.......
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Re: Draft Discussion Part 4: 3 Day Countdown! 

Post#266 » by JMac1 » Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:50 pm

Qwigglez wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
RunSunRun wrote:Fox seems like an obvious smokescreen, don't think it will make the Kings nervous at this point...maybe if we were high on Fox since the beginning it might have worked.

I admit I'm starting to come around on buying into Isaac's potential high ceiling, but I still have him behind Jackson and Tatum.


For potential high ceiling, this is a good watch..shows some interesting stuff.

;t=222s


Oh man, for a highlight reel tape, it is very underwhelming. I'm going to post what I find underwhelming...

0:49 - Okay good, he opens up the zone defense with a hard jab fake, goes left. Defender who doesn't look very athletic at all is able to recover, forces Isaac to go back to his dominant hand with a fade away in the paint. Actually think defense did well to recover, Isaac just made a tough shot.
0:56 - What's that? Another hard jab to the right only to drive in the paint going left, being cut off again by his smaller quicker defender. Another fade away jumper in the paint. Same exact move, however it yields the same result, so you can't argue. His gather is relatively slow IMO for someone who is supposedly quick for NBA standards.
1:04 - At least this time he didn't do the hard jab, though it was a similar move, a fake pass that has him driving in the paint using his left hand. He throws up a prayer from the free throw line with two guards reaching in, but the ball goes in. I think he could have easily taken another step and had a clearer shot in the paint.
1:30 - Have the big man isolated in the post, but jacks up a straight away three. I think straight away threes are the least likely of threes to go in. Early in the shot clock, and it goes in with the bank. I doubt he called it. (Yes I'm being nitpicky!)
1:47 - Grabs the rebound, brings the ball up the court. Take a long contested two early in the shot clock. Brandon Knight does this!
Next play, another slight jab to the right, takes one dribble and takes the mid range jumper. Again, big man had the post isolated. Easily could have dumped it off for an easy bucket. Though, maybe their big man sucks so he doesn't pass to him.
4:38 - Another right jab followed up by a one dribble pull-up.

He is too mechanical with his handles and is very very predictable. These highlights aren't showing enough creativeness for me. He did make some nice layups here and there, made some jumpers, and blocked some shots, but nothing that wows or excited me enough to warrant picking him at 4. At 4, I want someone that can potentially change our franchise around. Isaac seems to be a Marvin Williams kind of player, maybe a good glue guy / solid role player for a playoff team.
I will say, he does have very good shooting form.


Yea.... I pretty much agree. I think I get more excited watching his measurables on film and hoping he improves all of the things you mentioned and that makes me uneasy about him. I'm not, hell no, no way, but uneasy enough to rather have Tatum over him.
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Re: Draft Discussion Part 4: 3 Day Countdown! 

Post#267 » by BobbieL » Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:18 pm

MrMiyagi wrote:
DirtyDez wrote:
Read on Twitter
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I love it.


Is there anyway for the Suns to trade Bledsoe for a top 12 pick so that can be shipped to the Lakers for Russell. That is a scenario I could live with

Granted, I guess the defense with Booker and Russell might be porous
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Re: Draft Discussion Part 4: 3 Day Countdown! 

Post#268 » by Squigglepuffin » Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:19 pm

Celts17Pride wrote:
ray ray wrote:
Celts17Pride wrote:FYI - Celtics have been trying to get Jackson to come in for a workout but have been unsuccessful. Celtics hopeful they can get Jackson in Boston Tuesday or Wednesday.


I'm not saying that the Celtics haven't tried.. but they've gotten from we love Taytum and he's the next PPierce to now basically saying, we love JJackson..

Having said that, we cannot believe anything that comes out from teams FO. They're sending false info .

I have a feeling that after Thursday draft, the Suns will end up with Taytum. He just makes too much sense next to Book.

Ainge is a complete wildcard. The only thing I can say with any confidence is if the Celtics stay at #3 Ainge will pick one of the Top 10 ranked players.


I'm a Celtics fan and this made me lol because this is how I feel. Ainge is a complete wildcard and if he stays at 3 he will pick one of the top 10 players!!! :D
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Re: Draft Discussion Part 4: 3 Day Countdown! 

Post#269 » by BobbieL » Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:30 pm

I wonder - if a trade goes down that involves Bledsoe and Warren - does that push Tatum up the board because he is the potential big time scorer. Granted, it should be about the best long term potential and not just scorer as Dragan would seem to have skills and Chriss too.
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Re: Draft Discussion Part 4: 3 Day Countdown! 

Post#270 » by Qwigglez » Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:32 pm

I said it when the Celtics and Sixers made the trade, and I'm going to say it again. The Celtics are taking my guy Jayson Tatum. Suns will likely take Josh Jackson, or trade the pick. ;)
I am hoping we do not take Isaac at 4! I don't mind him at 7-9, but we don't have that pick :lol:

We got what... 59 more hours til the draft?
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Re: Draft Discussion Part 4: 3 Day Countdown! 

Post#271 » by bwgood77 » Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:36 pm

Qwigglez wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
RunSunRun wrote:Fox seems like an obvious smokescreen, don't think it will make the Kings nervous at this point...maybe if we were high on Fox since the beginning it might have worked.

I admit I'm starting to come around on buying into Isaac's potential high ceiling, but I still have him behind Jackson and Tatum.


For potential high ceiling, this is a good watch..shows some interesting stuff.

;t=222s


Oh man, for a highlight reel tape, it is very underwhelming.


Interesting, because I watched that with two other Suns fans on big screen followed by Tatum (then Jackson) season highlights and just asking who they thought looked like the better potential NBA player and who they'd' want on the Suns and they said clearly Isaac (even moreso than JJ season highlights actually too). But the one guy who looked very underwhelming was Tatum.

But of course this isn't showing too much of his real strengths, which our defense, blocks, steals, etc which indicate great translation of a player to the NBA historically. This is showing of course the things he might get knocked for, so I can understand it getting picked on a little, but I thought he showed some exciting things.
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Re: Draft Discussion Part 4: 3 Day Countdown! 

Post#272 » by bwgood77 » Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:40 pm

BobbieL wrote:
MrMiyagi wrote:
DirtyDez wrote:
Read on Twitter
?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.realgm.com%2Fboards%2Fviewtopic.php%3Ft%3D1579214

I love it.


Is there anyway for the Suns to trade Bledsoe for a top 12 pick so that can be shipped to the Lakers for Russell. That is a scenario I could live with

Granted, I guess the defense with Booker and Russell might be porous


Yes, I mentioned that might be their best bet to get Russell and cash in on Bledsoe for good value. As bad as Russell is on defense, he's at least better than Booker, and Bledsoe was drastically declining in that area this year.
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Re: Draft Discussion Part 4: 3 Day Countdown! 

Post#273 » by bwgood77 » Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:54 pm

cosmofizzo wrote:One of the year's must-listen podcasts - Pelton on Dunc'd On: http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/246338/Duncd-On-David-Griffin-Out-in-CLE;-Projecting-the-2017-Draft-with-Kevin-Pelton

KP's big board:

1 Ball
2 Fultz
3 Isaac
4 DSJ
5 Jackson
6 Fox
7 Anunoby
8 Tatum
9 Z. Collins
10 Monk
11 Markkanen
12 Mitchell
13 Hart

Some notes:

- Nate Duncan and KP are on the same page of DSJ > Fox. Despite ranking Fox (and JJ and Tatum) much higher than his stats suggest, KP is very scared of Fox because of shooting concerns.
- I have yet to see any advanced stat metric that doesn't have Isaac near the top. One big plus KP has in Isaac's favor over Tatum and Jackson is the fact that he'll play the 4 in time; one big minus for Jackson is his age (1 year older than other freshmen). Also worth noting that Duncan in his previous podcast with his usual partner (Danny something?) had Isaac way ahead of Tatum and Jackson.


Pelton is best advanced stat guy espn has. I used to read him a lot when I had insider. I'll have to read some of his stuff, because he would always show who he had ranked high in the past and it was fairly spot on with who succeeded vs busted.

I know a few of use have DSJ very high on our boards, and I'm a little surprised more don't but they probably don't more due to him not being ranked high in mocks now, but as I mentioned before I think if DSJ played for Kentucky and Fox played for NC State, DSJ would be top 3-4 in those mocks and Fox would be very low lottery...maybe fringe lottery.

Maybe same thing if you flipped Isaac and Tatum, though Tatum would probably still make top 10.
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Re: Draft Discussion Part 4: 3 Day Countdown! 

Post#274 » by bwgood77 » Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:00 pm

sunsbum wrote:So we pretty much know we are getting Tatum/jax/fox if McD really is drafting BPA. Isaac wouldn't be considered BPA above those guys at this point would he?


It really depends on whether or not BPA is defined as best immediate contributor now, or BPA based on future nba translation/upside with limited downside. Fox would probably still rank below Isaac in the BPA now because he can't shoot and isn't a great passer either for a PG, which are two pretty desirable traits. He is much like Goodwin...great at getting the rim, but neither could shoot and were suspect passers. I like Fox better based on determination and heart, but can he just magically improve those things or do instincts of how you've always played kick in like they do with Knight?

Jackson is also a year older so has had more experience which is important as you are developing quickly from 19-20 so that helps him look a lot better. If all the other guys were a year older, he likely wouldn't stand out quite as much in relation to the others.
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Re: Draft Discussion Part 4: 3 Day Countdown! 

Post#275 » by BobbieL » Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:05 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
BobbieL wrote:
MrMiyagi wrote:I love it.


Is there anyway for the Suns to trade Bledsoe for a top 12 pick so that can be shipped to the Lakers for Russell. That is a scenario I could live with

Granted, I guess the defense with Booker and Russell might be porous


Yes, I mentioned that might be their best bet to get Russell and cash in on Bledsoe for good value. As bad as Russell is on defense, he's at least better than Booker, and Bledsoe was drastically declining in that area this year.


Aside from using Bledsoe in say a three team with the Cavs and Bulls with Butler to Cleve and Love to Phoenix - I think it would be excellent if the Suns could use him to get D'angelo Russell. The Lakers are going Ball - that kind of makes Russell expendable. Russell / Booker would be a solid potential backcourt
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Re: Draft Discussion Part 4: 3 Day Countdown! 

Post#276 » by King4Day » Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:09 pm

Phoenix Suns Insider‏ @InsiderSuns · 5m5 minutes ago

.@WindhorstESPN reports that former Cavs GM David Griffin had the framework of a deal to send Kevin Love to Phoenix for the 4th pick.

Phoenix Suns Insider‏ @InsiderSuns · 5m5 minutes ago

Replying to @InsiderSuns

The Cavs would then use the 4th overall pick as the centerpiece of a deal to acquire All-Star Jimmy Butler from the Bulls.
--------------

This makes me VERY angry
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Re: Draft Discussion Part 4: 3 Day Countdown! 

Post#277 » by Sreister » Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:19 pm

DarkHawk wrote:Phoenix Suns Insider‏ @InsiderSuns · 5m5 minutes ago

.@WindhorstESPN reports that former Cavs GM David Griffin had the framework of a deal to send Kevin Love to Phoenix for the 4th pick.

Phoenix Suns Insider‏ @InsiderSuns · 5m5 minutes ago

Replying to @InsiderSuns

The Cavs would then use the 4th overall pick as the centerpiece of a deal to acquire All-Star Jimmy Butler from the Bulls.
--------------

This makes me VERY angry


Wow. I hope they don't continue with that. The only trade I want is to get a combo of SF/PG in the draft. I don't want Love unless it's for minimal effort/cost and we somehow can sign another big time FA to accelerate our rebuild. Even then, I don't think Love is what we want anyway.
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Re: RE: Re: Draft Discussion Part 4: 3 Day Countdown! 

Post#278 » by WeekapaugGroove » Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:19 pm

DarkHawk wrote:Phoenix Suns Insider‏ @InsiderSuns · 5m5 minutes ago

.@WindhorstESPN reports that former Cavs GM David Griffin had the framework of a deal to send Kevin Love to Phoenix for the 4th pick.

Phoenix Suns Insider‏ @InsiderSuns · 5m5 minutes ago

Replying to @InsiderSuns

The Cavs would then use the 4th overall pick as the centerpiece of a deal to acquire All-Star Jimmy Butler from the Bulls.
--------------

This makes me VERY angry

You know since I like the prospects in this draft very few outcomes on Thursday would upset me.... but trading 4 for kevin love thats one that would really not sit well with me.

If there's any truth to this buckle up suns fan its a sign they are going to do some dumb shortsighted **** the next two weeks.

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Re: Draft Discussion Part 4: 3 Day Countdown! 

Post#279 » by bwgood77 » Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:19 pm

Yes, that would blow.

In other news, if Chicago gets the 3rd pick in a trade with Boston, per insiders on their forum (from a Bulls mod) they would pick between Jackson and Fox.
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Re: Draft Discussion Part 4: 3 Day Countdown! 

Post#280 » by BobbieL » Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:21 pm

DarkHawk wrote:Phoenix Suns Insider‏ @InsiderSuns · 5m5 minutes ago

.@WindhorstESPN reports that former Cavs GM David Griffin had the framework of a deal to send Kevin Love to Phoenix for the 4th pick.

Phoenix Suns Insider‏ @InsiderSuns · 5m5 minutes ago

Replying to @InsiderSuns

The Cavs would then use the 4th overall pick as the centerpiece of a deal to acquire All-Star Jimmy Butler from the Bulls.
--------------

This makes me VERY angry


I probably would not have been happy with this trade - giving up the 4th for Love. I would give up the 4th for a much younger player but this smells like Sarver sticking his nose in where it doesn't belong. But, with the Bull and Cavs over the cap - my guess is that the Bulls would have gotten Brandon Knight and possibly TJ Warren or a future pick

I just am not sure I like this trade for the Suns with the 4th pick. Would much rather it be Bledsoe, Warren and a future first and keep the 4th pick

But, if Sarver is itchy to win, its bring in Love with this group and see if you can get to the playoffs.

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