2016-17 Phoenix Suns Preseason Thread

[Jarlaxle0204]

Coming into the season 2 years ago there was a lot of talk from the coaching staff, players and management about how much Len had improved and how he was going to surprise the fans. He showed glimpses of that improvement but injuries, as always, slowed him down and limited his opportunities. Last preseason, the GM, Chandler and others again raved about Len's growth and potential but again, mostly due to injuries, we saw little of the new Len.

He played 78 games last season. What injuries? I feel like sometimes you guys aren't actually watching these games.

[NTB]

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[darealjuice]

The amount of Alex Len haters on this board is unreal. You guys are getting worked up over preseason games. Can someone please explain to me why Suns fans love to turn on their young players as soon as they think these guys cannot be the superstars or all stars they envisioned? This same thing happened with Robin Lopez and he was only a 15th pick. The Suns draft mobile 7 footers with a decent touch, who can get up and down the floor, providing defense and doing the little things that do not show up in stats. Yet Suns fans turn on them, constantly comparing them to other players, and wanting to cast them off for not putting up 20 and 10 it seems.

Through all the turmoil of last year, losing his starting spot and being forced to play out of position a good portion of the time, 22 year old Alex Len still managed to average just under 9 and 8 in 23 minutes. Big men are getting paid. Look at what Miles Plumlee and Mozgov got. I would much rather have Len over either of those two, not to mention Len still has plenty of upside left. But here we have Suns fans that do not want to pay Len a similar amount because we have 34 year old Chandler and Alan Williams? Alex Len can provide much more than just rebounding, he is double double threat, much more so than either of those two. Chandler has already lost a step and is another year older, and Alan Williams has played a grand total of what 10 games in the NBA. I highly doubt he has the skill or range to play big minutes in this league, but lets give up on our #5 pick because we have those two? That is exactly what a rebuilding team should do.

I almost cannot wait for next year, so I can see all the fans start to turn on Bender and Chriss. It already seems to be happening with TJ Warren now too.

I'm far from an Alex Len hater, but he's going to get offered a contract for more than he's worth to us this offseason, and the idea of making him the highest paid player on the team despite not even being a top 5 player for us doesn't sit well with me. No one is saying dump Alex because we have Alan and Tyson either, they're saying give up on Alex because he's inconsistent, inefficient, and will cost a lot of money to keep here that we may need for Warren and Booker in the coming years or a high caliber free agent if we can draw one in. There are better options out there than him for less than what he'll get offered in RFA this year, even if they're through the draft. You shouldn't be valuing at him as the #5 pick anymore either, he's not even considered a top 10 player in what was the worst draft in years at this point in his career, that's classic sunk cost fallacy.

I also don't see any hate for TJ Warren on here, much less Bender or Chriss... If anything, I see a lot of people saying TJ should be the starter. Len and Knight have been common targets because Len had a historically inefficient season on the offensive end and regressed on the defensive end last year, and Knight plays an unattractive brand of basketball to a lot of people here. Unless you're referring to fans on other sites..?

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[Zelaznyrules]

Coming into the season 2 years ago there was a lot of talk from the coaching staff, players and management about how much Len had improved and how he was going to surprise the fans. He showed glimpses of that improvement but injuries, as always, slowed him down and limited his opportunities. Last preseason, the GM, Chandler and others again raved about Len's growth and potential but again, mostly due to injuries, we saw little of the new Len.

He played 78 games last season. What injuries? I feel like sometimes you guys aren't actually watching these games.

I've missed a grand total of one game since League Pass first came out in the mid 90's. I suggest that it's you that's missed something. Among other problems (ankle etc.) Len played with a bad hand for a good part of the season which limited his ability to catch the ball and rebound without fumbling it away.

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

Coming into the season 2 years ago there was a lot of talk from the coaching staff, players and management about how much Len had improved and how he was going to surprise the fans. He showed glimpses of that improvement but injuries, as always, slowed him down and limited his opportunities. Last preseason, the GM, Chandler and others again raved about Len's growth and potential but again, mostly due to injuries, we saw little of the new Len.

He played 78 games last season. What injuries? I feel like sometimes you guys aren't actually watching these games.

Anyone who says Len isn't a rim protector because he doesn't block shots hasn't watched enough. Does no one remember how easy it was to get to the basket when Plumlee was our center? More blocks doesn't mean fewer layups.

[carey]

The amount of Alex Len haters on this board is unreal. You guys are getting worked up over preseason games. Can someone please explain to me why Suns fans love to turn on their young players as soon as they think these guys cannot be the superstars or all stars they envisioned?

My explanation is simple. I don't think he'll live up to the contract he's going to sign next off season. It'll start at $12M and I think his production can be replaced by a cheaper player. There's nothing further than that. I think he's close to his ceiling and he's not improved much since he got here. Do I want him to succeed and be proven wrong? Yes. It's year 4 and I'm off the Len train. Feel free to stay on there's plenty leg room now.

[Zelaznyrules]

Coming into the season 2 years ago there was a lot of talk from the coaching staff, players and management about how much Len had improved and how he was going to surprise the fans. He showed glimpses of that improvement but injuries, as always, slowed him down and limited his opportunities. Last preseason, the GM, Chandler and others again raved about Len's growth and potential but again, mostly due to injuries, we saw little of the new Len.

He played 78 games last season. What injuries? I feel like sometimes you guys aren't actually watching these games.

Anyone who says Len isn't a rim protector because he doesn't block shots hasn't watched enough. Does no one remember how easy it was to get to the basket when Plumlee was our center? More blocks doesn't mean fewer layups.

Who mentioned blocked shots? And what is it with all these posters accusing the rest of us of not watching the games? Maybe it's not a case of watching enough games, maybe it's simply that we see something differently than you do?

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

He played 78 games last season. What injuries? I feel like sometimes you guys aren't actually watching these games.

Anyone who says Len isn't a rim protector because he doesn't block shots hasn't watched enough. Does no one remember how easy it was to get to the basket when Plumlee was our center? More blocks doesn't mean fewer layups.

Who mentioned blocked shots? And what is it with all these posters accusing the rest of us of not watching the games? Maybe it's not a case of watching enough games, maybe it's simply that we see something differently than you do?

I wasn't referring to you, just in general. Apologies for any offense taken.

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

The amount of Alex Len haters on this board is unreal. You guys are getting worked up over preseason games. Can someone please explain to me why Suns fans love to turn on their young players as soon as they think these guys cannot be the superstars or all stars they envisioned?

My explanation is simple. I don't think he'll live up to the contract he's going to sign next off season. It'll start at $12M and I think his production can be replaced by a cheaper player. There's nothing further than that. I think he's close to his ceiling and he's not improved much since he got here. Do I want him to succeed and be proven wrong? Yes. It's year 4 and I'm off the Len train. Feel free to stay on there's plenty leg room now.

I do think a choice will need to be made between Chandler and Len, at roughly comparable contracts. I haven't made up my mind on that front at this point.

[sunshoopjunky]

The amount of Alex Len haters on this board is unreal. You guys are getting worked up over preseason games. Can someone please explain to me why Suns fans love to turn on their young players as soon as they think these guys cannot be the superstars or all stars they envisioned?

My explanation is simple. I don't think he'll live up to the contract he's going to sign next off season. It'll start at $12M and I think his production can be replaced by a cheaper player. There's nothing further than that. I think he's close to his ceiling and he's not improved much since he got here. Do I want him to succeed and be proven wrong? Yes. It's year 4 and I'm off the Len train. Feel free to stay on there's plenty leg room now.

I do think a choice will need to be made between Chandler and Len, at roughly comparable contracts. I haven't made up my mind on that front at this point.

My take on Len:
This is year 4 he will be 23 years old.

Chandler was 22 when he started his 4th year. Tyson ave 8 pts at 49% in 80 games in 27 minutes almost 10 rebounds and close to 2 blocks.

LaMarcus Aldridge was 24 when he started his 4th year. LaMarcus ave almost 18 points at 49% ish in 78 games in 37 minutes 8 boards and under 1 block

I will be on board the Len train as long as he is somewhere in the middle

[Damkac]

Coming into the season 2 years ago there was a lot of talk from the coaching staff, players and management about how much Len had improved and how he was going to surprise the fans. He showed glimpses of that improvement but injuries, as always, slowed him down and limited his opportunities. Last preseason, the GM, Chandler and others again raved about Len's growth and potential but again, mostly due to injuries, we saw little of the new Len.

He played 78 games last season. What injuries? I feel like sometimes you guys aren't actually watching these games.

Anyone who says Len isn't a rim protector because he doesn't block shots hasn't watched enough. Does no one remember how easy it was to get to the basket when Plumlee was our center? More blocks doesn't mean fewer layups.

But with Len it's also easy to get to the basket. He is trying to contest but ball goes to the basket anyway.

[bwgood77]

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He's probably making faces at Booker trying to get him to laugh.

[Zelaznyrules]

He played 78 games last season. What injuries? I feel like sometimes you guys aren't actually watching these games.

Anyone who says Len isn't a rim protector because he doesn't block shots hasn't watched enough. Does no one remember how easy it was to get to the basket when Plumlee was our center? More blocks doesn't mean fewer layups.

But with Len it's also easy to get to the basket. He is trying to contest but ball goes to the basket anyway.

I'm hoping this is in part due to him trying to adapt to Watson's style, especially on defense. Against Utah for example, Len kept switching early and he'd frequently find himself trying to recover too late to do any good or 20 feet from the rim double teaming a guard that had long since passed the ball away. I've never seen a more consistently wide open lane than in that game so I'm hoping it's just an adjustment phase for him. I may just be grasping at straws but I can't come up with another explanation for his disappearance thus far.

[lilfishi22]

The amount of Alex Len haters on this board is unreal. You guys are getting worked up over preseason games. Can someone please explain to me why Suns fans love to turn on their young players as soon as they think these guys cannot be the superstars or all stars they envisioned?

My explanation is simple. I don't think he'll live up to the contract he's going to sign next off season. It'll start at $12M and I think his production can be replaced by a cheaper player. There's nothing further than that. I think he's close to his ceiling and he's not improved much since he got here. Do I want him to succeed and be proven wrong? Yes. It's year 4 and I'm off the Len train. Feel free to stay on there's plenty leg room now.

I'm with you here

I think it's also important to consider the fact that the NBA is and has been for some time moving away from lumbering 7 footers without range from the past. Not to say Len is like those guys because he clearly is more mobile than many of the dominant bigs back in the day but right now he's kind of stuck between the skillful modern bigs like JV, Towns, Okafor and the current athletic and lengthy bigs like Gobert, Drummond and Jordan. He's not skilled enough nor has that elite athleticism or mobility to seem to be able to get ahead of the pack in any particular facet of the game. Right now, he seems to be average or slightly above average when it comes to post defense, that's about it. I just don't know if you can pay the guy more than $10m a year, even if he's a young big, if all he does is play defense at a slightly above average level and doesn't seem to excel in any other parts of the big man game. We're talking about a 7- footer who can barely manage to shoot over 50% from the field.

I forgot which ex-NBA great said this but it's generally true and it was along the lines of; for big men, if they don't dominate right away, it's very unlikely they'll dominate later down the track. You do get the rare exception like Whiteside but very few big men who came into the league and didn't dominate in any facet of the game, suddenly become more than a bench player or journeyman later down the track.

I want him to prove me wrong

[Jarlaxle0204]

Coming into the season 2 years ago there was a lot of talk from the coaching staff, players and management about how much Len had improved and how he was going to surprise the fans. He showed glimpses of that improvement but injuries, as always, slowed him down and limited his opportunities. Last preseason, the GM, Chandler and others again raved about Len's growth and potential but again, mostly due to injuries, we saw little of the new Len.

He played 78 games last season. What injuries? I feel like sometimes you guys aren't actually watching these games.

I've missed a grand total of one game since League Pass first came out in the mid 90's. I suggest that it's you that's missed something. Among other problems (ankle etc.) Len played with a bad hand for a good part of the season which limited his ability to catch the ball and rebound without fumbling it away.

I apologize for suggesting that you haven't been watching. I'm frustrated with reading how down everyone is on Len and in a prior discussion I had with someone a couple of months ago it was suggested that Len was out for an extended period last season when clearly he played most of the games. I thought you were insinuating a similar notion. Again, I apologize that I misunderstood what you were saying.

[Zelaznyrules]

He played 78 games last season. What injuries? I feel like sometimes you guys aren't actually watching these games.

I've missed a grand total of one game since League Pass first came out in the mid 90's. I suggest that it's you that's missed something. Among other problems (ankle etc.) Len played with a bad hand for a good part of the season which limited his ability to catch the ball and rebound without fumbling it away.

I apologize for suggesting that you haven't been watching. I'm frustrated with reading how down everyone is on Len and in a prior discussion I had with someone a couple of months ago it was suggested that Len was out for an extended period last season when clearly he played most of the games. I thought you were insinuating a similar notion. Again, I apologize that I misunderstood what you were saying.

Understood. Ripping Len is absolutely the last thing I want to do. I usually get called a Len apologist because I'm always trotting out the reasons that he's failed to live up to his draft spot. But I'm frustrated because it's getting more and more difficult to stay in his corner. He showed so much promise a few years ago, we just need him to start showing that promise nightly. During his rookie season I was convinced he had a 80% chance of becoming an all star level center. Now, I'm thinking his chances of stardom are in the 5% range but slim chance or not, I'm still holding out hope.

[Jdiddy701]

I have been saying it for awhile now but everyone thought I was just picking on him. This forum thought so high of him. I will ALWAYS view him has a backup center in this league. He plays like a girl and is too inconsistent.

He has a good game here and there and everyone thinks he's better than Chandler. I still think we need to get cousins. Sign me up to a Cousins and Chriss front-court for years to come.

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[Qwigglez]

The amount of Alex Len haters on this board is unreal. You guys are getting worked up over preseason games. Can someone please explain to me why Suns fans love to turn on their young players as soon as they think these guys cannot be the superstars or all stars they envisioned?

My explanation is simple. I don't think he'll live up to the contract he's going to sign next off season. It'll start at $12M and I think his production can be replaced by a cheaper player. There's nothing further than that. I think he's close to his ceiling and he's not improved much since he got here. Do I want him to succeed and be proven wrong? Yes. It's year 4 and I'm off the Len train. Feel free to stay on there's plenty leg room now.

I'm with you here

I think it's also important to consider the fact that the NBA is and has been for some time moving away from lumbering 7 footers without range from the past. Not to say Len is like those guys because he clearly is more mobile than many of the dominant bigs back in the day but right now he's kind of stuck between the skillful modern bigs like JV, Towns, Okafor and the current athletic and lengthy bigs like Gobert, Drummond and Jordan. He's not skilled enough nor has that elite athleticism or mobility to seem to be able to get ahead of the pack in any particular facet of the game. Right now, he seems to be average or slightly above average when it comes to post defense, that's about it. I just don't know if you can pay the guy more than $10m a year, even if he's a young big, if all he does is play defense at a slightly above average level and doesn't seem to excel in any other parts of the big man game. We're talking about a 7- footer who can barely manage to shoot over 50% from the field.

I forgot which ex-NBA great said this but it's generally true and it was along the lines of; for big men, if they don't dominate right away, it's very unlikely they'll dominate later down the track. You do get the rare exception like Whiteside but very few big men who came into the league and didn't dominate in any facet of the game, suddenly become more than a bench player or journeyman later down the track.

I want him to prove me wrong

No ex-NBA great ever said that. Just Greg Anthony.

[lilfishi22]

What is frustrating is that he's still struggling to even wrestle minutes away from a 33-34 year old, 15yr NBA vet. I get that Chandler has a wealth of experience but if you compare them, the only thing Len does better is shoot FT's at a decent percentage. I'm not saying he should be coming out and playing like a 15 year NBA vet but I wanted him to be able to take minutes from Chandler and not just be his back up. At this stage, it might be possible to grab an up and coming youngster from the D-league and replace much of Len's contributions at a significantly lower cost and commitment.