Season Speculation, Trade Ideas & Discussion Pt. 4

[NavLDO]

His shot is so bad. I just don't know if he will ever get touch.

Marion had a bad shooting form and he was one of the KEY players during the SSOL and carried the defense.... Jackson is in the same mold.



Shooting is just one aspect... I want Jackson to be the All-rounder (slash, pass, defense, rebound) so he will fit in nicely with Booker, Warren and another offensive player, hopefully a big man

Someone that does not need to score, but still helps the team win and gel on court.

Bad form but he still almost shot 50% as a rookie. Jackson is in the 30% range.

And this, my friends, is how you take two stats that really are only 8% different, and trying to turn it into 20% in order to make your argument seem more viable...

But let's really look at what 'almost 50%' means...hmmm, that's odd, I see .471, or 47.1%

Now let's look at 'in the 30% range' and see what that really means...hmmm, also odd, I see .392, or 39.2%

Then, let's look at their 3PT shot. Marion shot 18.2%, while Jackson is shooting an also terrible, yet better, 23.8%.

And then, let's compare JJ to some others, like Stanimal and Winslow, both of whom have two years more experience, yet are shooting equally bad, and then there are 3 rookie Guards, that are also shooting poorly, that were drafted in the lotto, and do not have 'Defense' to fall back on like JJ does for a sought after skillset at their position. He's about equal with Dennis Smith Jr. but way ahead of Monk a Shooting Guard, and Frank Tiddliwinks, the new NYK PG.

http://bkref.com/tiny/f2DWw

And on this list he ranks 2nd in Per36 in Steals and TRB

So while we would all love for JJ to be 26 games into his career as a 20YO and be taking the NBA by storm, it just doesn't always happen that fast. His shot will improve, even if it never becomes 'good', and that's ok, because we need Defense on this team as well.

As far as I am concerned, if the player has not been in the NBA more than 3 years...OR he is under the age of 24...and ESPECIALLY both...I consider them a 'trainee'; any 'great play' we get out of one (like Booker, and Warren last year, at times) is a BONUS...NOT the expected NORM. They need a chance to develop, and a chance to do so with a permanent Head Coach, a solidified starting PG, as well as Center (no, IMO Chandler at age 35 does not count, even if he DOES have an occasional good game here or there).

[WeekapaugGroove]

Hope he plays so well he both raises the nets above the suns in the standings and prices himself out of Brooklyn

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[WeekapaugGroove]

Read on Twitter

Averaging 17.7 points, 6.3 rebounds, 2.5 assists, 1 steal, 0.6 blocks per game in the G League on .455/.349/.824 shooting

Looks like a 3 and D type wing. Worth kicking the tires on him. I would expect we see him actually get some run with the Suns over the next couple weeks and if they like him then stash him in the G-League for a while.

[RaisingArizona]

Marion had a bad shooting form and he was one of the KEY players during the SSOL and carried the defense.... Jackson is in the same mold.



Shooting is just one aspect... I want Jackson to be the All-rounder (slash, pass, defense, rebound) so he will fit in nicely with Booker, Warren and another offensive player, hopefully a big man

Someone that does not need to score, but still helps the team win and gel on court.

Bad form but he still almost shot 50% as a rookie. Jackson is in the 30% range.

And this, my friends, is how you take two stats that really are only 8% different, and trying to turn it into 20% in order to make your argument seem more viable...

But let's really look at what 'almost 50%' means...hmmm, that's odd, I see .471, or 47.1%

Now let's look at 'in the 30% range' and see what that really means...hmmm, also odd, I see .392, or 39.2%

Then, let's look at their 3PT shot. Marion shot 18.2%, while Jackson is shooting an also terrible, yet better, 23.8%.

And then, let's compare JJ to some others, like Stanimal and Winslow, both of whom have two years more experience, yet are shooting equally bad, and then there are 3 rookie Guards, that are also shooting poorly, that were drafted in the lotto, and do not have 'Defense' to fall back on like JJ does for a sought after skillset at their position. He's about equal with Dennis Smith Jr. but way ahead of Monk a Shooting Guard, and Frank Tiddliwinks, the new NYK PG.

http://bkref.com/tiny/f2DWw

And on this list he ranks 2nd in Per36 in Steals and TRB

So while we would all love for JJ to be 26 games into his career as a 20YO and be taking the NBA by storm, it just doesn't always happen that fast. His shot will improve, even if it never becomes 'good', and that's ok, because we need Defense on this team as well.

As far as I am concerned, if the player has not been in the NBA more than 3 years...OR he is under the age of 24...and ESPECIALLY both...I consider them a 'trainee'; any 'great play' we get out of one (like Booker, and Warren last year, at times) is a BONUS...NOT the expected NORM. They need a chance to develop, and a chance to do so with a permanent Head Coach, a solidified starting PG, as well as Center (no, IMO Chandler at age 35 does not count, even if he DOES have an occasional good game here or there).

Stop it. You're hurting my argument!

[Damkac]

What you love so much about center who don't defend, rebound and has character issues?

[lilfishi22]

His shot is so bad. I just don't know if he will ever get touch.

OK, perhaps you were this low on him coming out, but his shot isn't any worse than it was coming out of college.

He is just a poor shooter. I think you're sugar coating it. Hard to play wing in the new NBA without a formidable shot.

The guy has a hitch in his shot. The form itself isn't that bad. I know Drummond is one of the very rare cases where a career .38FT% shooter is now shooting .62FT% but if he can fix his shot to the point where he's no longer a consistent liability, JJ should be able to as well. In the spectrum of players with bad shooting forms, I think JJ's is probably closer to entirely fixable than probably not fixable.

[Frank Lee]

Bad form but he still almost shot 50% as a rookie. Jackson is in the 30% range.

And this, my friends, is how you take two stats that really are only 8% different, and trying to turn it into 20% in order to make your argument seem more viable...

But let's really look at what 'almost 50%' means...hmmm, that's odd, I see .471, or 47.1%

Now let's look at 'in the 30% range' and see what that really means...hmmm, also odd, I see .392, or 39.2%

Then, let's look at their 3PT shot. Marion shot 18.2%, while Jackson is shooting an also terrible, yet better, 23.8%.

And then, let's compare JJ to some others, like Stanimal and Winslow, both of whom have two years more experience, yet are shooting equally bad, and then there are 3 rookie Guards, that are also shooting poorly, that were drafted in the lotto, and do not have 'Defense' to fall back on like JJ does for a sought after skillset at their position. He's about equal with Dennis Smith Jr. but way ahead of Monk a Shooting Guard, and Frank Tiddliwinks, the new NYK PG.

http://bkref.com/tiny/f2DWw

And on this list he ranks 2nd in Per36 in Steals and TRB

So while we would all love for JJ to be 26 games into his career as a 20YO and be taking the NBA by storm, it just doesn't always happen that fast. His shot will improve, even if it never becomes 'good', and that's ok, because we need Defense on this team as well.

As far as I am concerned, if the player has not been in the NBA more than 3 years...OR he is under the age of 24...and ESPECIALLY both...I consider them a 'trainee'; any 'great play' we get out of one (like Booker, and Warren last year, at times) is a BONUS...NOT the expected NORM. They need a chance to develop, and a chance to do so with a permanent Head Coach, a solidified starting PG, as well as Center (no, IMO Chandler at age 35 does not count, even if he DOES have an occasional good game here or there).

Stop it. You're hurting my argument!

Big Picture says majority of these rooks are not so good, but never before hyped so well

[jcsunsfan]

Team looks great, McD. Good call on staying put.

They shouldnt trade for Okafor because of his situation (contract)... wait for FA and go for him.



Monroe is still an asset though

This. If we want him, we can sign him next summer. And we can do it after the draft. So if we draft a center, we can look for a pg instead.


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[NavLDO]

Josh Childress does not have the defensive awareness or pesky hands that Josh Jackson has shown... and thats comparing veteran Childress vs 20 game rookie Jackson



This is nuts.

He cant shoot well.. hence he must be terrible.


Need to calm down. He has shown a heck of a lot of good things.

Think back when Booker, Warren, Marion, Stoudemire etc... were rookies.

It's kinda funny (well, not really 'ha ha' funny, but 'unbelievable' funny) that just 3-4 months ago, any mention about a potential trade involving JJ was thoroughly rebuked and 'thou shall not ever mention such heresy again'...

...yet now, there are several who feel, after just 25 games, that JJ is busting out, and he may never fix his shot, and too bad we didn't get Tatum, and so on and so forth.

Yes, some rookies come in and get it right away, but there are plenty of really successful NBA players that took a couple of years to figure it all out, and I'd say the majority certainly take more than 25 games. And in Bender's case,he already looks tons better than last year, while Chriss does not. OK...lots of professionals also have sophomore slumps too...

...does anyone happen to remember a year ago, by chance?? We had the young, superstar SG who had just had an awesome SL, then started the season, and after his first 34 games, he was averaging 34% from 3, but was coming off a 30% December. His FG% was barely 41%...basically, he was starting to look like a 'Chucker'. Anyone remember that? I do. My point is, he was able to 'right the ship' and get his game back on track. Chriss may have a tougher go of it, especially now with Booker out.

But my goodness. You'd think we had these guys for 4-5 years and they were seasoned Vets who have lost their touch...

[lilfishi22]

Team looks great, McD. Good call on staying put.

They shouldnt trade for Okafor because of his situation (contract)... wait for FA and go for him.



Monroe is still an asset though

This. If we want him, we can sign him next summer. And we can do it after the draft. So if we draft a center, we can look for a pg instead.


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The point was to get him while he's still on his rookie deal so we can see how he fits with the team. I know there's a price to pay for that but I'd imagine that price (Monroe + maybe a 2nd?) is less than what we may have to commit to him financially to bring him on board next summer.

[LukasBMW]

that's why trading for him was the wrong move without his bird rights..

Won't the Net's have enough cap space to sign him though?

Even if he tears it up and the market offers him $12-$15m a year, it looks like the Nets will have room?

Godddamnit, it sucks that we didn't offer Philly something of value for him before they didn't lock in his option.

If a team trades for him they can't pay him more next year than his 4th year option would have been. But any other team can. So they can lose him if someone outbids.

Wow! That is insane!!!!!!

Philly is so dumb! And the Nets aren't much brighter. They could showcase him and then totally see teams outbid them!

[WeekapaugGroove]

They shouldnt trade for Okafor because of his situation (contract)... wait for FA and go for him.



Monroe is still an asset though

This. If we want him, we can sign him next summer. And we can do it after the draft. So if we draft a center, we can look for a pg instead.


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The point was to get him while he's still on his rookie deal so we can see how he fits with the team. I know there's a price to pay for that but I'd imagine that price (Monroe + maybe a 2nd?) is less than what we may have to commit to him financially to bring him on board next summer.

But if they did that and he played and fit well then they would probably lose him because they would be limited to around $6M they could offer him. The time to get him was before the Sixers declined his option.

Overall I'm pretty skeptical on Okafor. When the whole league won't trade a damn 2nd round pick for a dude you have to wonder if he's just not good.

[NavLDO]

I come in piece

Seeing how #2 is an option, how would you guys feel collectively about a Monroe/Jackson/18' pick for Whiteside trade?

I don't think Whiteside is the guy I would move those assets for. Not sure who is at this point.

How about Monroe, Warren, MIA 1st, for Whiteside?

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I'm not sure I trade Warren straight up for Whiteside. Part of the trade is Contract, and Warren is on one heck of a contract for what he is providing. How many non-rookie contract SFs (I'm counting this year as part of his extension, so 5yrs/$53M--$10.6M per)are starting and slashing 18/6 with nearly a Stl and a Blk per game, to boot, for under $11M per year year? Whiteside makes double that in a position that is literally flooded with talent across the NBA. Just because WE don't have one right now, there are about to be at least 5-7 starter-level more Centers entering the league next year, and we are going to trade our uber productive SF for him?? Naw...thanks.

However, if they want to swap young SFs, by taking on JJ, while we take on Justise Winslow, for the rights of swapping Centers (Whiteside for Monroe) than I'd consider entertaining that trade.

[AtheJ415]

This. If we want him, we can sign him next summer. And we can do it after the draft. So if we draft a center, we can look for a pg instead.


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The point was to get him while he's still on his rookie deal so we can see how he fits with the team. I know there's a price to pay for that but I'd imagine that price (Monroe + maybe a 2nd?) is less than what we may have to commit to him financially to bring him on board next summer.

But if they did that and he played and fit well then they would probably lose him because they would be limited to around $6M they could offer him. The time to get him was before the Sixers declined his option.

Overall I'm pretty skeptical on Okafor. When the whole league won't trade a damn 2nd round pick for a dude you have to wonder if he's just not good.

Most teams would trade a 2nd for him I think. It's just that most won't when the silly rule exists limiting him to $6 million. Thus, he only makes sense for a rebuilding team and only in the scenario that he is kind of good but nothing more. I do think he is worth a flier on, and if I'm Phoenix and we can't get somebody like Cousins or Capela, I'd offer him a high salary ($8-9 million or so) per year deal for 1 year + a team option. Gives him a chance to prove himself, and we wouldn't be using that space anyways. If he sucks, we punt until next year when the FA class is much better and has more max-worthy guys.

[NavLDO]

I come in piece

Seeing how #2 is an option, how would you guys feel collectively about a Monroe/Jackson/18' pick for Whiteside trade?

Give us Goran back, I miss having competent play from the PG position

So do they...difference is, we only pay our PG $500,000. They have to pay Dragic 34-times that amount for little more than what we get out of Ulis and James...

...seriously...Dragic is slashing 17/4.5 Asst/3.9 TRB...Booker was slashing 24/4.1 Asst/4.5 TRB. What is Dragic going to do for us that Booker isn't already? If we are going to bring in a PG, I mean, for all those who were against Kyrie, I can't believe those would want Dragic...shoot, I want a PG that's going to move the ball around.

I want NO part of Dragic, his nearly 32 YO body (see what I did there, ginobiloflops), and his $17M pay day...

EDIT: ugh...then I read Qwigglez post after yours...what's wrong with you people??? Do you not remember how Dragic shat on this franchise a few years ago because he was cryin' about not getting to play PG all by his onesies...and then he goes to Miami, and does absolutely NO better there with better players? And you want to bring him back here? With a bunch of 20-23 YO kids? Why, so he can teach them how to whine properly??

Good riddance...him, Kieff, Bledsoe...buh-by...let's change this culture some. Wecan start by not bringing back babies who pout when they don't get their way. Chriss is already on the verge...all we need is for Dragic to come back and show him how it's REALLY done...

"Well, first, you go to your nearest reporter and cry foul...then..."

[Bishop45]

I come in piece

Seeing how #2 is an option, how would you guys feel collectively about a Monroe/Jackson/18' pick for Whiteside trade?

I don't think Whiteside is the guy I would move those assets for. Not sure who is at this point.

How about Monroe, Warren, MIA 1st, for Whiteside?

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I'm not sure I trade Warren straight up for Whiteside. Part of the trade is Contract, and Warren is on one heck of a contract for what he is providing. How many non-rookie contract SFs (I'm counting this year as part of his extension, so 5yrs/$53M--$10.6M per)are starting and slashing 18/6 with nearly a Stl and a Blk per game, to boot, for under $11M per year year? Whiteside makes double that in a position that is literally flooded with talent across the NBA. Just because WE don't have one right now, there are about to be at least 5-7 starter-level more Centers entering the league next year, and we are going to trade our uber productive SF for him?? Naw...thanks.

However, if they want to swap young SFs, by taking on JJ, while we take on Justise Winslow, for the rights of swapping Centers (Whiteside for Monroe) than I'd consider entertaining that trade.

I'd do that for MIA's picks back, which is fair imo. Whiteside's the best player in trade by few yards imo, just one pick without Winslow tho

[NavLDO]

I don't think Whiteside is the guy I would move those assets for. Not sure who is at this point.

How about Monroe, Warren, MIA 1st, for Whiteside?

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I'm not sure I trade Warren straight up for Whiteside. Part of the trade is Contract, and Warren is on one heck of a contract for what he is providing. How many non-rookie contract SFs (I'm counting this year as part of his extension, so 5yrs/$53M--$10.6M per)are starting and slashing 18/6 with nearly a Stl and a Blk per game, to boot, for under $11M per year year? Whiteside makes double that in a position that is literally flooded with talent across the NBA. Just because WE don't have one right now, there are about to be at least 5-7 starter-level more Centers entering the league next year, and we are going to trade our uber productive SF for him?? Naw...thanks.

However, if they want to swap young SFs, by taking on JJ, while we take on Justise Winslow, for the rights of swapping Centers (Whiteside for Monroe) than I'd consider entertaining that trade.

I'd do that for MIA's picks back, which is fair imo. Whiteside's the best player in trade by few yards imo, just one pick without Winslow tho

How about you can have as many Mia picks back as Whiteside has full seasons played...

You can't look at it just by talent alone. Like I said, the Suns can just wait 7 months for the draft to roll around and get a shin new Center who is healthier and younger than Whiteside, and a couple are likely more talented. Not to mention the 20+ starting Centers that are around the NBA already, and the FA class that will have Lopez, Cousins, Monroe, Okafor, Noel, Nurkic, and Capella. There's just no reason to trade major pieces away for a borderline top 10 Center. That's not our biggest need.

So, no, I could see McD trading ONE pick away, but likely the Milwaukee pick we received in exchange for Bledsoe. Our best move is to keep your pick...especially this year, since it doesn't look as if you'll be a playoff team, and even if you are, it will be an 8th or 7th seed. If you trade Whiteside, then no way would McD trade your pick back to you.

[bwgood77]

Won't the Net's have enough cap space to sign him though?

Even if he tears it up and the market offers him $12-$15m a year, it looks like the Nets will have room?

Godddamnit, it sucks that we didn't offer Philly something of value for him before they didn't lock in his option.

If a team trades for him they can't pay him more next year than his 4th year option would have been. But any other team can. So they can lose him if someone outbids.

Wow! That is insane!!!!!!

Philly is so dumb! And the Nets aren't much brighter. They could showcase him and then totally see teams outbid them!

Yeah, that's why a lot of people didn't want to trade for him because it was a no win situation...if he plays really well, someone could/would outbid you. But Okafor might like it there with guys from his draft class and a year ahead/behind...but they also have Jarrett Allen who they just drafted who might be better anyway.

[LukasBMW]

If a team trades for him they can't pay him more next year than his 4th year option would have been. But any other team can. So they can lose him if someone outbids.

Wow! That is insane!!!!!!

Philly is so dumb! And the Nets aren't much brighter. They could showcase him and then totally see teams outbid them!

Yeah, that's why a lot of people didn't want to trade for him because it was a no win situation...if he plays really well, someone could/would outbid you. But Okafor might like it there with guys from his draft class and a year ahead/behind...but they also have Jarrett Allen who they just drafted who might be better anyway.

If Jah puts together a sting of 20+pt/10+ rebound games like he did as a rookie EVEN with bad defense, some team will offer him more then $6 mil a year. Dallas, Atlanta, Chicago, Scaramento, and us are all real options. He'd easily get more then Noel or Len.

[lilfishi22]

This. If we want him, we can sign him next summer. And we can do it after the draft. So if we draft a center, we can look for a pg instead.


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The point was to get him while he's still on his rookie deal so we can see how he fits with the team. I know there's a price to pay for that but I'd imagine that price (Monroe + maybe a 2nd?) is less than what we may have to commit to him financially to bring him on board next summer.

But if they did that and he played and fit well then they would probably lose him because they would be limited to around $6M they could offer him. The time to get him was before the Sixers declined his option.

Overall I'm pretty skeptical on Okafor. When the whole league won't trade a damn 2nd round pick for a dude you have to wonder if he's just not good.

I didn't know about this contraction limitations. But if that's true, then I don't think the fact that teams wouldn't trade a 2nd round pick for him is necessarily correlated to anything basketball/talent related.