2018 Free Agency and Trade Discussion continued

[Frank Lee]

Seems our biggest weakness/need is at PF, assuming we overlook the huge pg question mark that is Brandon Knight.

Right now, we have PF by committee, with the main board members being SFs. I’m guessing we see what and if Chriss and Bender can contribute as we forge ahead with our not so powerful SFs getting the important minutes.

I’ll bet McDeal is working on improving PF position, as he has already placed a 15 mill bandaid on it thus far. Mid Season move coming up ?

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

So we are ready to trade JJ now and keep T.J. after 3 summer league games?

No of course not! But I am not coronating JJ with a starting or backup role for the Suns like so many others do. Or alternatively trading away TJ for trash to make room for JJ.

Jackson needs to earn it by playing the right way. That means he has to cut out the stupid drives into heavy traffic that result in either a turnover or throwing up a crappy shot with no chance to go in. He better starting focusing on the defensive side of the ball which is supposedly his calling card. If he can't figure it out then he can play as a third stringer behind Booker, TJ, Ariza, Reed, and Bridges.

Let's not overreact to SL though, either. If you can't see JJ's extraordinary potential, you simply weren't watching him play the second half of last season. No way he'll be a third stringer. I'm confident he'll get it together and take the starting gig permanently within a year or so. He just needs to slow down on offense.

[Fo-Real]

Shaq is better than Smart.
Move on.

Dont think better, I think Smart has had more positive impact on games but not a diffrence worth 15 million dollars and Shaq is getting better. Shaq is probably soon to be on Smarts level. I'm good with rolling with Knight, Shaq and Okobo and if need be, making adjustments like trading for an established Pg is the opportunity presents its self.

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

Shaq is better than Smart.
Move on.

Dont think better, I think Smart has had more positive impact on games but not a diffrence worth 15 million dollars and Shaq is getting better. Shaq is probably soon to be on Smarts level. I'm good with rolling with Knight, Shaq and Okobo and if need be, making adjustments like trading for an established Pg is the opportunity presents its self.

You hit the nail on the head (aside from the presumption that Shaq will soon be on Smart's level - they're just different players, albeit both primarily defenders). Shaq's the better ball hawk, it seems, though he doesn't have Smart's insane switching capability. On offense, I think Shaq probably has a better chance of getting to a decent 3FG%. And given Smart's propensity to take too many shots, you might prefer Shaq over Smart straight up if Shaq maintains over the course of a whole season what he's displayed in half a season and SL. Whatever the difference between Shaq and Smart is - you're right, it's not worth $13.5 million or so. What's more, Shaq will be an RFA after two seasons. That kind of contractual control is another big reason to prefer Shaq.

What I think is inarguable is that you'd rather have Shaq than Beverley rn. Bev's injuries, plus his UFA status next season make all the difference. I think we should run with what we have at PG, keeping Canaan around as injury insurance.

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

Also - just wanted to point out that my guy Bertans just got $7.25 mil per as an RFA on a 2-year deal. That's more money than national pundits seemed to expect, but it's much closer to fair in my book. Spurs know what they have in him.

[WeekapaugGroove]

I'm pretty surprised they haven't brought in a vet PG. Figured that would be one of the first moves of FA/Trade season. Now I still think there's a decent chance someone gets brought in later this month, the most obvious spot would be one of the Clips guys like Bev or Milo because I doubt the Clips bring everyone back.

But I guess it's possible that they just roll with Knight, Shaq, and Okobo. If they do then they must feel more comfortable with Knight than I do but I have to admit that Knight playing and actually being decent would a huge win for the suns. Him actually giving them value the next two years would be huge and hell if he just plays half way decent it's possible they could even move his last year of his contact and open up even more space next summer. If Knight can give them starter type production then I do feel like Shaq and Okobo could be enough as backups; the risk is if Knight fails I'm not sure either guy should be a starting PG so they could get themselves in a pickle. I also kind of wonder if they are playing some games saying Booker won't run much/any PG and in reality they will use him more in this role than they are letting on.

[Frank Lee]

I’m surprised too Week... I’m mean blowing the load on Ariza right out of the gate just halted any other opportunities. That was a left field semi panic move imo... all because they didn’t want to tie up their $$ for a few days on a RFA??? And didn’t want to affect the capper next yr? May be there is more to it... but it’s bird in the hand time now. McDimwit is stuck on a next next year strategy.

[Fo-Real]

If Chriss and Bender are still not up to the task, a few names I would like to see if available are Saric (the sixers have seemed to not appreciate this guy), Trey Lyles ( have always liked his game) and the questionable one ( I know people want their cap space going forward) Serge Ibaka- I know he cost a lot but next to Ayton his skillset fits. Can hit the 3, still plays great defense and is big and mobile enough to play small ball C. Toronto was looking to do something about high salary, well maybe we could pry him away for someone who expires earlier like Duds, a young guy like Chriss or Bender and or a pick(Bucks). I actually think Serge would be amazing defensibly between Ayton and Ariza. Also dont see a reason to save cap space since a lot of teams will have a ton of cap space next year.

[Sreister]

I'm pretty surprised they haven't brought in a vet PG. Figured that would be one of the first moves of FA/Trade season. Now I still think there's a decent chance someone gets brought in later this month, the most obvious spot would be one of the Clips guys like Bev or Milo because I doubt the Clips bring everyone back.

But I guess it's possible that they just roll with Knight, Shaq, and Okobo. If they do then they must feel more comfortable with Knight than I do but I have to admit that Knight playing and actually being decent would a huge win for the suns. Him actually giving them value the next two years would be huge and hell if he just plays half way decent it's possible they could even move his last year of his contact and open up even more space next summer. If Knight can give them starter type production then I do feel like Shaq and Okobo could be enough as backups; the risk is if Knight fails I'm not sure either guy should be a starting PG so they could get themselves in a pickle. I also kind of wonder if they are playing some games saying Booker won't run much/any PG and in reality they will use him more in this role than they are letting on.

I think they want to give him some burn this year, at the very least because we have him on the payroll for quite a bit and the dude deserves a chance. We aren't exactly going to be a clear playoff team so it doesn't really hurt anything. If we were fighting for a top 5 playoff spot I think we absolutely would need to address the PG situation, but considering the finals is a forgone conclusion as things sit right now, there's no need to put ourselves in a bad position for next year. Let Knight prove himself, one way or another, for a year. He either proves he belongs or doesn't, but the dude's never lived up to his potential and of all years, this would be the year that could make or break him. If anything, he's hungry. (or should be)

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

If Chriss and Bender are still not up to the task, a few names I would like to see if available are Saric (the sixers have seemed to not appreciate this guy), Trey Lyles ( have always liked his game) and the questionable one ( I know people want their cap space going forward) Serge Ibaka- I know he cost a lot but next to Ayton his skillset fits. Can hit the 3, still plays great defense and is big and mobile enough to play small ball C. Toronto was looking to do something about high salary, well maybe we could pry him away for someone who expires earlier like Duds, a young guy like Chriss or Bender and or a pick(Bucks). I actually think Serge would be amazing defensibly between Ayton and Ariza. Also dont see a reason to save cap space since a lot of teams will have a ton of cap space next year.

Serge is done. And that contract is untradeable.

No reason to further clog the path forward for Dragan and Chriss with Lyles. Plus I don't think there's any chance Koko would want that guy on the roster given Lyles's history in Utah.

[Frank Lee]

I think they want to give him some burn this year, at the very least because we have him on the payroll for quite a bit and the dude deserves a chance. We aren't exactly going to be a clear playoff team so it doesn't really hurt anything. If we were fighting for a top 5 playoff spot I think we absolutely would need to address the PG situation, but considering the finals is a forgone conclusion as things sit right now, there's no need to put ourselves in a bad position for next year. Let Knight prove himself, one way or another, for a year. He either proves he belongs or doesn't, but the dude's never lived up to his potential and of all years, this would be the year that could make or break him. If anything, he's hungry. (or should be)

If we are ‘fighting’ for a top 5 playoff spot then it’s fair to assume the PG situation is working out... in fact it’s fair to assume everything is working out. Seems unlikely but ...... it’s clear McDoubleDown is all in on Knight, for now.

[bigfoot]

I’m surprised too Week... I’m mean blowing the load on Ariza right out of the gate just halted any other opportunities. That was a left field semi panic move imo... all because they didn’t want to tie up their $$ for a few days on a RFA??? And didn’t want to affect the capper next yr? May be there is more to it... but it’s bird in the hand time now. McDimwit is stuck on a next next year strategy.

McD did talk with Kokoshkov during his coaching interview and Koko said Ariza would be the best fit for the Suns. That might be the reason why McD made the quick jump. Based on the defense and offense I'm seeing Koko run in the summer league I'm sure he is going to use Ariza correctly. The defensive intensity by these kids has been insane so far.

Still like the Ariza signing as it brings us defense, three point shooting, and veteran leadership. We were the worst in the league at all three last year. Shaq and Reed both look to fit the defensive needs of the team. Plus Reed has the three point shooting chops. Bridges was a great move as he was a three year college player and hits the 3-D need. Overall McD has done above average addressing the needs of the team this year.

Selecting Kokoshkov
Drafting Ayton, Bridges, and Okobo
Releasing Ulis who was not a good defender or offensive player
Signing Ariza

Really my big disappointment was the release of Williams and looking at things (unknown status of Chriss, Chandler health issues, Ayton youth) I would think the another center is needed more than a PG or PF.

If we really need to pick someone else up this year then waive Daniels who is a defensive liability and use the $4.4M exception to sign another PG, PF, or C. If McD can somehow figure out how to move Dudley or Chandler to get another veteran presence that might be good. At this point we should be willing to give up second round picks to move players like Dudley, Chandler, and Daniels.

[WeekapaugGroove]

I’m surprised too Week... I’m mean blowing the load on Ariza right out of the gate just halted any other opportunities. That was a left field semi panic move imo... all because they didn’t want to tie up their $$ for a few days on a RFA??? And didn’t want to affect the capper next yr? May be there is more to it... but it’s bird in the hand time now. McDimwit is stuck on a next next year strategy.

I'm not sure ariza impacted it that much since this free agent pg class sucked. It was made up of scrubs and guys like Bradley, smart, and Evans who arent true pgs. I think they were fishing for a trade that so far just hasn't materialized.

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[Frank Lee]

Yeah, Foot and Week takes are good. I’m not that down on what McD has done this year... he’s trying to compensate for the Bender, Chris, Knight moves that really didn’t pan out so far. Toss in dead weights Dud and Chandler and it’s easy to see the task of improving to a play off team was a big chunk to chew in one off season.

I get it... cap space is good but it shouldn’t restrict you from adding a player on a 2-3 yr deal who really helps out now and fits in long term. Too late for that type of acquisition now unless you can move some contracts out. Warren looks like the only valuable chip we have to toss in the pot. I’d hesitate as we should expect some improvements from that gym rat

[WeekapaugGroove]

Yeah, Foot and Week takes are good. I’m not that down on what McD has done this year... he’s trying to compensate for the Bender, Chris, Knight moves that really didn’t pan out so far. Toss in dead weights Dud and Chandler and it’s easy to see the task of improving to a play off team was a big chunk to chew in one off season.

I get it... cap space is good but it shouldn’t restrict you from adding a player on a 2-3 yr deal who really helps out now and fits in long term. Too late for that type of acquisition now unless you can move some contracts out. Warren looks like the only valuable chip we have to toss in the pot. I’d hesitate as we should expect some improvements from that gym rat

I'm with you that it would have been nice to add a long term starter in the prime of their career in FA this year. Now options on that were kind of limited due to the bad fit some of these guys present. Maybe it's just low expectations for this FA but I was simply happy they didn't do anything dumb and overpay a bad player multiple years. That's why like you I'm fine with the Ariza signing. As long as he's healthy and plays up to his standards it's a low risk move. If the suns play better than expectations and are fighting for a playoff spot then you keep him the whole year; if they are out of the playoff race by the deadline he could be a decent trade chip where you take on an expiring and a small asset.

[Walt_Uoob]

I'm starting to think this trend of large one-year contracts and 1+1 deals where teams overpay players but maintain cap flexibility is here to stay. It seems like there was the J.J. Redick deal and the KCP deal and now this year nearly every team is doing it. I don't remember nearly as many of these sorts of deals in prior years.

Have any national writers covered this? I'm curious what the bigger-picture ramifications are. Seems like LeBron started it almost single-handedly, first by going to Miami with Wade and Bosh and then by betting on himself with all these short deals (up until the Lakers deal). Now there are a bunch of teams that have worked to clear max room but aren't able to use it on LeBron- or KD-level players, so they're doing these short deals in hopes of maxing out a true superstar or better yet, build a superteam.

But will enough star-level players keep taking short deals to keep teams in this situation, or are LeBron and KD truly unique? Hard to imagine injury-prone guys like AD/Embiid/KP or even Curry betting on themselves in this way rather than taking a 4- or 5-year deal. But RFA guys taking the QO fits into this too and seems to be a growing trend as well. I just don't know what to expect.

But in any case it definitely diminishes the value of cap space for now if there are lots of other teams in the same boat, so what will teams like the Suns do in the next couple years if they can't land superstar players with all the space they've worked to create and now maintain with short-term deals? Will we stay on the cap-space treadmill with more of these Ariza-type deals or get to a point where we give a huge long-term contract to a second-tier star because our rookie contracts are turning into real contracts and our cap window is closing?

I hope some national writer digs into this at some point if they haven't already.

[bwgood77]

I'm starting to think this trend of large one-year contracts and 1+1 deals where teams overpay players but maintain cap flexibility is here to stay. It seems like there was the J.J. Redick deal and the KCP deal and now this year nearly every team is doing it. I don't remember nearly as many of these sorts of deals in prior years.

Have any national writers covered this? I'm curious what the bigger-picture ramifications are. Seems like LeBron started it almost single-handedly, first by going to Miami with Wade and Bosh and then by betting on himself with all these short deals (up until the Lakers deal). Now there are a bunch of teams that have worked to clear max room but aren't able to use it on LeBron- or KD-level players, so they're doing these short deals in hopes of maxing out a true superstar or better yet, build a superteam.

But will enough star-level players keep taking short deals to keep teams in this situation, or are LeBron and KD truly unique? Hard to imagine injury-prone guys like AD/Embiid/KP or even Curry betting on themselves in this way rather than taking a 4- or 5-year deal. But RFA guys taking the QO fits into this too and seems to be a growing trend as well. I just don't know what to expect.

But in any case it definitely diminishes the value of cap space for now if there are lots of other teams in the same boat, so what will teams like the Suns do in the next couple years if they can't land superstar players with all the space they've worked to create and now maintain with short-term deals? Will we stay on the cap-space treadmill with more of these Ariza-type deals or get to a point where we give a huge long-term contract to a second-tier star because our rookie contracts are turning into real contracts and our cap window is closing?

I hope some national writer digs into this at some point if they haven't already.

This has been written about and it's mostly about the players this year wanting to wait until next year when a ton of teams have cap space. I think most any player would love to get a good long term deal, but what is likely to happen is the really big names will be heavily recruited next summer and teams will attempt to sign them to long deals, and then the teams that miss out and have a lot of cap space with more mid tier or low tier free agents may opt to sign one year deals to roll over their cap space and try for bigger names the following year. But of course there are only so many big names.

[PhxLax]

Can't believe everyone here is climbing over each other to sign Smart. Some even want to trade decent assets for him? Why do we want a guy who thinks he is a shooter/max player who can't shoot? Last kind of of guy we need at this point. I cant believe I've just read 10 odd pages of Smart trade ideas lol.

who is everyone? I think it's safe 95% here all say Smart sucks, Smart poor shooter, Smart bad to take away minutes for others, blah, blah blah. Just look around.

[PhxLax]

If Chriss and Bender are still not up to the task, a few names I would like to see if available are Saric (the sixers have seemed to not appreciate this guy), Trey Lyles ( have always liked his game) and the questionable one ( I know people want their cap space going forward) Serge Ibaka- I know he cost a lot but next to Ayton his skillset fits. Can hit the 3, still plays great defense and is big and mobile enough to play small ball C. Toronto was looking to do something about high salary, well maybe we could pry him away for someone who expires earlier like Duds, a young guy like Chriss or Bender and or a pick(Bucks). I actually think Serge would be amazing defensibly between Ayton and Ariza. Also dont see a reason to save cap space since a lot of teams will have a ton of cap space next year.

Serge is done. And that contract is untradeable.

No reason to further clog the path forward for Dragan and Chriss with Lyles. Plus I don't think there's any chance Koko would want that guy on the roster given Lyles's history in Utah.

Hmm. Umm...NO.

Not any more "done" and not any more "un-tradeable" than all the Kevin Love for TJ/Duds/etc talk. At the very least - while both Ibaka and Love are a shell of themselves - Ibaka makes the case for being a superb guy next to Ayton due to his defensive awareness and shot blocking. And his contract isn't THAT bad as people say. One -- it's almost 3.5 million cheaper than Love. Two -- it expires in just two years just like Love.

[PhxLax]

McD did talk with Kokoshkov during his coaching interview and Koko said Ariza would be the best fit for the Suns. That might be the reason why McD made the quick jump. Based on the defense and offense I'm seeing Koko run in the summer league I'm sure he is going to use Ariza correctly. The defensive intensity by these kids has been insane so far.

Still like the Ariza signing as it brings us defense, three point shooting, and veteran leadership. We were the worst in the league at all three last year. Shaq and Reed both look to fit the defensive needs of the team. Plus Reed has the three point shooting chops. Bridges was a great move as he was a three year college player and hits the 3-D need. Overall McD has done above average addressing the needs of the team this year.

Probably more like - - - Hey Koko, check out D'Antoni. Do u see he got to the Western Finals w/ Ariza (6-8) and Tucker (6-6) as their forwards? Watcha think --- we can roll out two 6-8 guys in Warren n Ariza. The rest is history.....and will prove to be a mistake when three weeks in Ariza decides he's not suited to play frontcourt......afterall, he's a career wingman. Not a frontcourt player.

Doesn't everybody remember the JJ issue at start of last season? They played him at PF guarding Blake and Blake destroyed him. And JJ went in locker room and told reporters he hates playing PF and don't wanna be guarding big ass men like that. I don't blame him.

Teams need TWO bigs on the floor at all times. I'm old school. Even the Warriors rolled out McGee/Green as starters. And now they rolling out Boogie/Green. Pelicans same w/ Boogie/AD and now Randle/AD. Or Celtics' deep run with Horford/Baynes. Or Blake/Drummond. Or Pau/LaMarcus. Or Kanter/Porzingis or Jokic/Millsap. The list goes on and on and on w/ practically every NBA team except Suns and Rockets ---- and guess what both have Phx affiliations (tucker, d'antoni). Clearly it's a stupid valley desert mentality to play small ball and that goes nowhere. Period. No ifs or buts.

The whole spill about "u don't need bigs" is a giant myth. No team goes on to win consistently without 2 bigs on the floor at most times. And Suns will really make Ayton's job much harder by making him the only big on the floor. You've got a SG playing effing PF and you got a rookie Center who you're going to rely on 99% of the time. Not gonna work. Disaster waiting to happen.