2022-23 Season Discussion and Review - the Blockbuster trade and playoff downfall

[lonea]

Here.., video of "proven scrub" just manhandled the "good player" with an AND1

https://youtu.be/dJf1RtcqSs8?t=117

https://youtu.be/dJf1RtcqSs8?t=254 <--- more "proven scrub" play

Pull up some "good player" footage, you are going to find driving layups and fadeaway jumpers. LOL

Or are you confused on whose the good player and whose the "proven scrub"

If you watched Mitchell Robinson every night for the Suns in a year they were gunning for the championship you'd hate him.


You are never pulling the opposing C away from the rim. I imagine in your highlight videos there are a lot of dunks since he can't shoot. All of his shots this season except 20 are at the rim. Out of those 20 shots that are 3ft or further, he has hit only 7 of them. He has only taken 2 shots out of 10 ft, and shoots 48% from the line. Teams would probably do hack a Robinson in the playoffs.

Look at his shot chart lol https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/robinmi01/shooting/2023

He also can't defend without fouling, and even though he blocks a lot of shots, he tries to block so many that he doesn't really play good defense and gets out of position often. If you think we get called for a lot of fouls now, imagine Robinson. He probably gets a bit of a benefit too playing in NY and at MSG.

Don't crush so hard his dreams of MR becoming an all star and leading the Suns to a championship after being a scrub for years.

yawnnnn... i guess you want ayton to crush your dreams of suns ever winning a championship then

same-same

[bwgood77]

Here.., video of "proven scrub" just manhandled the "good player" with an AND1

https://youtu.be/dJf1RtcqSs8?t=117

https://youtu.be/dJf1RtcqSs8?t=254 <--- more "proven scrub" play

Pull up some "good player" footage, you are going to find driving layups and fadeaway jumpers. LOL

Or are you confused on whose the good player and whose the "proven scrub"

If you watched Mitchell Robinson every night for the Suns in a year they were gunning for the championship you'd hate him.

You are never pulling the opposing C away from the rim. I imagine in your highlight videos there are a lot of dunks since he can't shoot. All of his shots this season except 20 are at the rim. Out of those 20 shots that are 3ft or further, he has hit only 7 of them. He has only taken 2 shots out of 10 ft, and shoots 48% from the line. Teams would probably do hack a Robinson in the playoffs.

Look at his shot chart lol https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/robinmi01/shooting/2023

He also can't defend without fouling, and even though he blocks a lot of shots, he tries to block so many that he doesn't really play good defense and gets out of position often. If you think we get called for a lot of fouls now, imagine Robinson. He probably gets a bit of a benefit too playing in NY and at MSG.

I think you completely missed the point.

With Robinson, you are not taking shots away from Booker and Durant.

I could careless how much shots Robinson is taking.

Pssst, and ayton should be taking those shots Robinsons are taking. Not freaking fadeaway jumpers. He's not Dirk.

Ayton was the best C shooter from midrange last season. I agree he shouldn't necessarily spin away from the basket, particularly if there are not players in between him and the rim, but he can score from a lot of spots on the floor. Robinson can't.

A shot from Ayton typically has a better chance of going in than one from Book. The way he ended that game was bad, and also very abnormal for him, but typically if you are getting the ball to Ayton for a shot, it's your best proposition outside of KD. Ayton has been scoring at 60-80% the last month or so most of the time. He's often our best option to score. Sure he can't create his own shot that well outside of his hook shot, but he can shoot it well or finish inside.

I guess you didn't understand my main point about Robinson not being a threat away from the rim. His defender (the other C) does not have to leave the rim and can just stand there not allowing ANYONE on our team to drive for easy buckets ever. This further decreases our free throw attempts. We become even MORE of a jump shooting team. We are already relying on too much jump shooting, and the worst part about it is that it's not because we are typically hitting a lot of 3s. We may have the midrange studs, but unless you are consistently making them at an absured FG% you will lose to teams getting to the rim and hitting 3s like most teams try to do.

[bwgood77]

If you watched Mitchell Robinson every night for the Suns in a year they were gunning for the championship you'd hate him.


You are never pulling the opposing C away from the rim. I imagine in your highlight videos there are a lot of dunks since he can't shoot. All of his shots this season except 20 are at the rim. Out of those 20 shots that are 3ft or further, he has hit only 7 of them. He has only taken 2 shots out of 10 ft, and shoots 48% from the line. Teams would probably do hack a Robinson in the playoffs.

Look at his shot chart lol https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/robinmi01/shooting/2023

He also can't defend without fouling, and even though he blocks a lot of shots, he tries to block so many that he doesn't really play good defense and gets out of position often. If you think we get called for a lot of fouls now, imagine Robinson. He probably gets a bit of a benefit too playing in NY and at MSG.

Don't crush so hard his dreams of MR becoming an all star and leading the Suns to a championship after being a scrub for years.

yawnnnn... i guess you want ayton to crush your dreams of suns ever winning a championship then

same-same

They've come a lot closer with Ayton than really any other C in Suns history.

And many called him our MVP of those playoffs.

I guess we got there once with Mark West though when he was averaging 5 pts and 5 rpg....but of course we had monster rebounder Chuck in there.

[lilfishi22]

shhhh... some people on here will tell you how much pts and rebs he's averaging, so he's a good player to keep

Without putting personal feelings and emotions into this, what we trade DA for has to make us a better team otherwise the same frustration you have for DA will remain, but directed at his replacement.

The number of C's who even averages 18ppg is small, that number gets smaller when you throw in the rebounds, the efficiency and the FT%. That number then goes down further when you consider the number of guys who are actually available to trade without giving up future assets we don't have. Sure, we don't need to have a better C in return but the package we get back should make us better.

DA is overpaid, he's inconsistent and he's frustrating and I'm not saying the grass isn't greener, what I'm saying is finding and getting to the greener pastures is harder than you think. If there's a deal that progresses us as a team and we can get it done with DA, yeah I'm all for it. But right now, you could consider him to be sunken cost however we have him locked up, he basically has nowhere to go but up and it's in our best interest to get the most out of him while he's here.

Actually, no.

The replacement which I assume will be much cheaper and won't be getting much offensive touches.

Suns need players who knows how to play the game and have skills. Just look at Draymond green.

He's one of the main reason why GS is good at defense and also why the Suns are not.

All well and good but how many Draymond Greens are there?

[lilfishi22]

The reason I get frustrated with Ayton is because he has the tools to be an all time great in my opinion but is satisfied just earning his money. He plays like he doesn't care. He doesn't seem to have a love for the game from what I can tell. He doesn't fight hard for rebounds. He doesn't try to impose his prescense. He doesn't play with heart.

At some point, you have to realise and accept the tools don't make the man

[lilfishi22]

The reason I get frustrated with Ayton is because he has the tools to be an all time great in my opinion but is satisfied just earning his money. He plays like he doesn't care. He doesn't seem to have a love for the game from what I can tell. He doesn't fight hard for rebounds. He doesn't try to impose his prescense. He doesn't play with heart.

I hear this argument a lot. But the reality is that ayton is missing an iso move, preventing him from getting to the next level. He’s elite at pnr, decent mid range shooter, above average defender but he lacks an offensive move. I think he cares and work harder than most people give him credit. Conversely i think his skill set is overrated though he still have time to develop that important facet of the game

I think his perimeter defense gets more credit than it deserves and routinely gets pointed out as what sets him apart. The problem is this season I think he's regressed significantly. He can't seem to stay in front of anyone out on the perimeter for long and certainly hasn't seem to be able to recover back to the basket to defend when he gets beats nearly as quickly as before either.

But yes, the lack of any sort of reliable creation has and will always keep him from being a true top 3 C until he able to solve that riddle. Teams fear him as a roll threat but aside from that, they don't panic when a small wing gets switched onto him.

[Ghost of Kleine]

Read on Twitter

If more size is obviously still a need against certain teams, Why not give Noel a try on a 10 day contract?

[lonea]

Without putting personal feelings and emotions into this, what we trade DA for has to make us a better team otherwise the same frustration you have for DA will remain, but directed at his replacement.

The number of C's who even averages 18ppg is small, that number gets smaller when you throw in the rebounds, the efficiency and the FT%. That number then goes down further when you consider the number of guys who are actually available to trade without giving up future assets we don't have. Sure, we don't need to have a better C in return but the package we get back should make us better.

DA is overpaid, he's inconsistent and he's frustrating and I'm not saying the grass isn't greener, what I'm saying is finding and getting to the greener pastures is harder than you think. If there's a deal that progresses us as a team and we can get it done with DA, yeah I'm all for it. But right now, you could consider him to be sunken cost however we have him locked up, he basically has nowhere to go but up and it's in our best interest to get the most out of him while he's here.

Actually, no.

The replacement which I assume will be much cheaper and won't be getting much offensive touches.

Suns need players who knows how to play the game and have skills. Just look at Draymond green.

He's one of the main reason why GS is good at defense and also why the Suns are not.

All well and good but how many Draymond Greens are there?

Depends how loose you wanna go... there's also Bam and Sabonis. Which both have better intensive and IQ than ayton.

It was quite apparent during the game agianst SAC, when all Sabonis did was a pump fake and ayton fell for it.

Come to think of it, I dont think ayton learn how to pump fake yet . . .

[lilfishi22]

I just want to point out that Kal/CamJo seem to be utilized quite well by the Nets. I know they are still losing games but if you put DA on the Nets (maybe even the Pacers) I think we see a better DA.

The dollar stops with Monty who at the moment knows that his bench sucks yet won't play TJ Warren. Warren was starting on the Nets WITH Kyrie and KD. I won't even start on his rotations and how he pulls players when they gain momentum.

I get it though when it comes to DA. His energy is super low and he looks lost out there. Monty is getting paid to keep players motivated and put them in a position to succeed. I just don't think Monty has been putting DA in a position to succeed which based on the numbers might be an understatement.

Please stop with the hatred on CP3 because we know that he won't be our starter next season. At this stage we have to consider both a coaching change and possible moving Ayton if he is not a coachable player.

Personally I would rather get a new coach this offseason and see how DA responds. If he doesn't then explore moving on from him at the trade deadline.

We would optimise our system around them too if we didn't have a Book/CP3. If we only had one DA or one Mikal/Cam, the offense would be completely different for obvious. Are there different approaches we could've taken to spread the offense more across other players, sure but our system has proven to be robust and and although it is not without flaws, the fact that we got to the Finals and won 64 games suggests we're doing something right. Now that we have KD, it's gone from Book/CP3 to now Book/KD.

I don't think any coach would step into Monty's role and suggest we should move away from Book/CP3 nor do I think changing our offense to prioritise DA make him a better player either. He'll probably put up more numbers because of volume/opportunities but more PPG doesn't necessarily = better player or more team success.

[lilfishi22]

Actually, no.

The replacement which I assume will be much cheaper and won't be getting much offensive touches.

Suns need players who knows how to play the game and have skills. Just look at Draymond green.

He's one of the main reason why GS is good at defense and also why the Suns are not.

All well and good but how many Draymond Greens are there?

Depends how loose you wanna go... there's also Bam and Sabonis. Which both have better intensive and IQ than ayton.

It was quite apparent during the game agianst SAC, when all Sabonis did was a pump fake and ayton fell for it.

Come to think of it, I dont think ayton learn how to pump fake yet . . .

Unless we're talking about the elites of the elites, there's always going to be someone better, someone more athletic, someone with higher IQ, someone on a better value contract etc etc etc. But unless there's a way to get them to the desert, it's all wishful thinking.

Suggesting we should have a Draymond instead of a DA sounds great but I also rather we have Steph instead of CP3, Jokic instead of DA but there's only so much wishful thinking you can do before realising unless we can and are making an offer the other team can't refuse, those teams aren't giving us Bam, Sabonis, Embiid, Jokic.....

What you're doing is pointing out the kind of player profile you want in that C position which is fine but as Monty would say, well done is better than well said, and clearly what you're suggesting is easier said than done.

[GoodBehavior]

The reason I get frustrated with Ayton is because he has the tools to be an all time great in my opinion but is satisfied just earning his money. He plays like he doesn't care. He doesn't seem to have a love for the game from what I can tell. He doesn't fight hard for rebounds. He doesn't try to impose his prescense. He doesn't play with heart.

I hear this argument a lot. But the reality is that ayton is missing an iso move, preventing him from getting to the next level. He’s elite at pnr, decent mid range shooter, above average defender but he lacks an offensive move. I think he cares and work harder than most people give him credit. Conversely i think his skill set is overrated though he still have time to develop that important facet of the game

I think his perimeter defense gets more credit than it deserves and routinely gets pointed out as what sets him apart. The problem is this season I think he's regressed significantly. He can't seem to stay in front of anyone out on the perimeter for long and certainly hasn't seem to be able to recover back to the basket to defend when he gets beats nearly as quickly as before either.

But yes, the lack of any sort of reliable creation has and will always keep him from being a true top 3 C until he able to solve that riddle. Teams fear him as a roll threat but aside from that, they don't panic when a small wing gets switched onto him.

Exactly. Anyone expect Ayton to be a 25 pts scorer are having unrealistic expectation. He doesn’t have the tools to get to that level. If anything, he’s doing exactly as expected so the hate is strange.

[lilfishi22]

I hear this argument a lot. But the reality is that ayton is missing an iso move, preventing him from getting to the next level. He’s elite at pnr, decent mid range shooter, above average defender but he lacks an offensive move. I think he cares and work harder than most people give him credit. Conversely i think his skill set is overrated though he still have time to develop that important facet of the game

I think his perimeter defense gets more credit than it deserves and routinely gets pointed out as what sets him apart. The problem is this season I think he's regressed significantly. He can't seem to stay in front of anyone out on the perimeter for long and certainly hasn't seem to be able to recover back to the basket to defend when he gets beats nearly as quickly as before either.

But yes, the lack of any sort of reliable creation has and will always keep him from being a true top 3 C until he able to solve that riddle. Teams fear him as a roll threat but aside from that, they don't panic when a small wing gets switched onto him.

Exactly. Anyone expect Ayton to be a 25 pts scorer are having unrealistic expectation. He doesn’t have the tools to get to that level. If anything, he’s doing exactly as expected so the hate is strange.

My feelings on DA has evolved over time from being really frustrated/annoyed/disappointed when he had poor games to just accepting he is who he is. It would be like being disappointed Ross can't create or Ish can't hit 3's at a high clip or Book can't do Kyrie things. We are where we are with him and I hope he can do more but I'm neither expecting or asking for much more.

[TOO]

I hear this argument a lot. But the reality is that ayton is missing an iso move, preventing him from getting to the next level. He’s elite at pnr, decent mid range shooter, above average defender but he lacks an offensive move. I think he cares and work harder than most people give him credit. Conversely i think his skill set is overrated though he still have time to develop that important facet of the game

I think his perimeter defense gets more credit than it deserves and routinely gets pointed out as what sets him apart. The problem is this season I think he's regressed significantly. He can't seem to stay in front of anyone out on the perimeter for long and certainly hasn't seem to be able to recover back to the basket to defend when he gets beats nearly as quickly as before either.

But yes, the lack of any sort of reliable creation has and will always keep him from being a true top 3 C until he able to solve that riddle. Teams fear him as a roll threat but aside from that, they don't panic when a small wing gets switched onto him.

Exactly. Anyone expect Ayton to be a 25 pts scorer are having unrealistic expectation. He doesn’t have the tools to get to that level. If anything, he’s doing exactly as expected so the hate is strange.

The hate isn't strange, it's max money for role player production, it's poor asset management.

[lilfishi22]

I think his perimeter defense gets more credit than it deserves and routinely gets pointed out as what sets him apart. The problem is this season I think he's regressed significantly. He can't seem to stay in front of anyone out on the perimeter for long and certainly hasn't seem to be able to recover back to the basket to defend when he gets beats nearly as quickly as before either.

But yes, the lack of any sort of reliable creation has and will always keep him from being a true top 3 C until he able to solve that riddle. Teams fear him as a roll threat but aside from that, they don't panic when a small wing gets switched onto him.

Exactly. Anyone expect Ayton to be a 25 pts scorer are having unrealistic expectation. He doesn’t have the tools to get to that level. If anything, he’s doing exactly as expected so the hate is strange.

The hate isn't strange, it's max money for role player production, it's poor asset management.

Which is not his fault. If I could get paid top dollar and only deliver 70% of the job, hell yeah I'd fight for that job

[Slim Charless]

I just want to point out that Kal/CamJo seem to be utilized quite well by the Nets. I know they are still losing games but if you put DA on the Nets (maybe even the Pacers) I think we see a better DA.

The dollar stops with Monty who at the moment knows that his bench sucks yet won't play TJ Warren. Warren was starting on the Nets WITH Kyrie and KD. I won't even start on his rotations and how he pulls players when they gain momentum.

I get it though when it comes to DA. His energy is super low and he looks lost out there. Monty is getting paid to keep players motivated and put them in a position to succeed. I just don't think Monty has been putting DA in a position to succeed which based on the numbers might be an understatement.

Please stop with the hatred on CP3 because we know that he won't be our starter next season. At this stage we have to consider both a coaching change and possible moving Ayton if he is not a coachable player.

Personally I would rather get a new coach this offseason and see how DA responds. If he doesn't then explore moving on from him at the trade deadline.

Tavares Montgomery Williams is ridiculous and will cost this team another chip if they let him. The only hope is that KD comes back and his presence just kinda wipes away the goofiness of Tavares.

I agree about Ayton and think he will blow ppl away once he gets away from this team.

[bigfoot]

Maybe the Wiz would do a sign and trade this summer ... Porzingis for Ayton. I guess they'll need to sign both Kuzma and Porzingis this summer.

[lonea]

All well and good but how many Draymond Greens are there?

Depends how loose you wanna go... there's also Bam and Sabonis. Which both have better intensive and IQ than ayton.

It was quite apparent during the game agianst SAC, when all Sabonis did was a pump fake and ayton fell for it.

Come to think of it, I dont think ayton learn how to pump fake yet . . .

Unless we're talking about the elites of the elites, there's always going to be someone better, someone more athletic, someone with higher IQ, someone on a better value contract etc etc etc. But unless there's a way to get them to the desert, it's all wishful thinking.

Suggesting we should have a Draymond instead of a DA sounds great but I also rather we have Steph instead of CP3, Jokic instead of DA but there's only so much wishful thinking you can do before realising unless we can and are making an offer the other team can't refuse, those teams aren't giving us Bam, Sabonis, Embiid, Jokic.....

What you're doing is pointing out the kind of player profile you want in that C position which is fine but as Monty would say, well done is better than well said, and clearly what you're suggesting is easier said than done.

I'm not suggesting whoever over whoever.

The point is, ayton at this moment is not even close to being the top echelon of centers. Bam and Sabonis are just two examples how ayton is severely lacking in terms of a nba caliber center.

[sunsbg]

Maybe the Wiz would do a sign and trade this summer ... Porzingis for Ayton. I guess they'll need to sign both Kuzma and Porzingis this summer.

Putting a huge injury risk in Porzingis next to KD and CP3 is such a good idea.

[Sunlight]

Since there is a lot of discussion here about Ayton's low IQ, why does Booker repeatedly fall into the opponent's trap like last time yesterday?

Watch on YouTube

;ab_channel=RookieProductions

[TOO]

Exactly. Anyone expect Ayton to be a 25 pts scorer are having unrealistic expectation. He doesn’t have the tools to get to that level. If anything, he’s doing exactly as expected so the hate is strange.

The hate isn't strange, it's max money for role player production, it's poor asset management.

Which is not his fault. If I could get paid top dollar and only deliver 70% of the job, hell yeah I'd fight for that job

Doesn't mean you should keep him or be a fan of half assed production.