The Official 2025 Offseason Thread Part 1

[NE1Care]

Booker is the problem. He is not someone you build around, he is a number 2 or 3 not a number 1. That is the mistake they keep making.

The Suns need to fire the GM. Then Hire a GM, then have the GM hire the coach, then have the coach pick his players and then a new era will start in Phoenix. Until then it will be the same clown show.

[dremill24]

Im definitely up for watching Jeff Van Gundy screaming at Booker to make extra defensive efforts

[dremill24]

Shouldnt Beal have taught us something? When someone shows you they are physically unable to stay on the court, you should probably believe them. Zion is fantastic in his limited court time, but how do you build/plan around that extreme level of unreliability? Someone will look like a genius for getting him on the cheap if he miraculously starts playing games, but the chances of that are slim to none.

[Ghost of Kleine]

Shouldnt Beal have taught us something? When someone shows you they are physically unable to stay on the court, you should probably believe them. Zion is fantastic in his limited court time, but how do you build/plan around that extreme level of unreliability? Someone will look like a genius for getting him on the cheap if he miraculously starts playing games, but the chances of that are slim to none.

Absolutely valid point! But again, much of the implied risk should be offset by the fact that, unlike Beal, his issues are more of the conditioning nature than chronic injuries due to wear and tear. But moreover, the implied risk is really mitigated by the fact that none of his remaining three years are guaranteed at all. His 3-year extension is fully non-guaranteed. So unlike Beal, any team trading for him can waive him at no incurred additional cost beyond what was given up initially in trade. So if he misses his target weight in weigh-ins, and/or misses significant playing time per his included provisions, he can be waived without any financial detriment. And he doesn't have any NTC.

This dramatically mitigates the implied risks surrounding him for any receiving team! And with Ishbia not worrying about money, He can assign a fitness/ accountability team to monitor him on a regular basis to ensure accountability towards ideal conditioning! And Zion himself, being aware of the very serious provisions and optics around him without having any contractual guarantees going forward, should be very motivated to prove he still deserves a place as an NBA max player. These are conditions that, if utilized correctly, should illicit a higher probability for success than what he had in New Orleans.

He'll also be very motivated to prove the doubters wrong and ensure his next contract rather than possibly finding his way out of the NBA and being labeled a bust! I look at this as a kind of cyclical reiteration of the Barkley trade that elevated our team, surprisingly, to the finals. And see Zion in a somewhat similar archetype and situation as Charles Barkley himself, possibly.

[Ghost of Kleine]

Im definitely up for watching Jeff Van Gundy screaming at Booker to make extra defensive efforts

Was it Jeff or Stan that was being dragged around hanging onto his pklayers' leg in that scruff years ago? I think I remember it being Jdeff....LOL

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That alone might be worth the signing!

[lilfishi22]

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Rather not

[Slim Charless]

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Rather not

To mitigate the risk of Zion and the fact that we're moving KD for him, we have to dump Royce or Greyson in the deal. Have to, if we're not getting any extra picks.

[Slim Charless]

Also Chris Quinn would again be my choice for the coach in hopes that he'd bring some of that Heat Culture stuff here too.

There's a 0.00% chance Riley and Spo would stand for Zion being fat if he were on the Heat. Quinn would probably have the same thought.

[lilfishi22]

Shouldnt Beal have taught us something? When someone shows you they are physically unable to stay on the court, you should probably believe them. Zion is fantastic in his limited court time, but how do you build/plan around that extreme level of unreliability? Someone will look like a genius for getting him on the cheap if he miraculously starts playing games, but the chances of that are slim to none.

Absolutely valid point! But again, much of the implied risk should be offset by the fact that, unlike Beal, his issues are more of the conditioning nature than chronic injuries due to wear and tear. But moreover, the implied risk is really mitigated by the fact that none of his remaining three years are guaranteed at all. His 3-year extension is fully non-guaranteed. So unlike Beal, any team trading for him can waive him at no incurred additional cost beyond what was given up initially in trade. So if he misses his target weight in weigh-ins, and/or misses significant playing time per his included provisions, he can be waived without any financial detriment. And he doesn't have any NTC.

This dramatically mitigates the implied risks surrounding him for any receiving team! And with Ishbia not worrying about money, He can assign a fitness/ accountability team to monitor him on a regular basis to ensure accountability towards ideal conditioning! And Zion himself, being aware of the very serious provisions and optics around him without having any contractual guarantees going forward, should be very motivated to prove he still deserves a place as an NBA max player. These are conditions that, if utilized correctly, should illicit a higher probability for success than what he had in New Orleans.

He'll also be very motivated to prove the doubters wrong and ensure his next contract rather than possibly finding his way out of the NBA and being labeled a bust! I look at this as a kind of cyclical reiteration of the Barkley trade that elevated our team, surprisingly, to the finals. And see Zion in a somewhat similar archetype and situation as Charles Barkley himself, possibly.

I don't think it's just conditioning. It's more than that. Pre-draft there were serious concerns about his long term health not just because of his weight but just his build, the immense level of athleticism on his joints and of course, the conditioning issues he's had which have already done damage to his body. To suggest it's largely conditioning thing and there isn't serious wear and tear concerns with Zion would not be correct.

And you're right, there are some risk mitigation due to the nature of Zion's contract but even if he was healthy for most of the way through, he'd have another 3 seasons of additional wear and tear on his body and whatever injuries he may pick up at the end of that period and what then? I just don't see a long term player in Zion even if he was somewhat healthy. And if he's not unexpectedly injured for some period of time that would mean he's remaining years aren't guaranteed, then you'd have nothing to show for a KD trade.

I'd rather just get some picks and maybe a young guy with some potential over Zion.

[Slim Charless]

Ishbia seems like he's star obsessed. Him getting a potential superstar in Zion is par for the course. The fit would him and Booker would be intriguing if we can get it to work...

[lilfishi22]

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Rather not

To mitigate the risk of Zion and the fact that we're moving KD for him, we have to dump Royce or Greyson in the deal. Have to, if we're not getting any extra picks.

That's why I don't see this being a good trade for the Suns. We're not getting a treasure chest full of picks for KD but we'll get a couple of decent ones and I think anything that helps us with our future team building I would value higher than a high risk, high reward player for the now and in the short-medium term.

Ishbia might see it differently though. That's why I look at his next few moves in two categories, Hail Mary or No Regrets. Zion would comfortably fall into the Hail Mary category

[Slim Charless]

Rather not

To mitigate the risk of Zion and the fact that we're moving KD for him, we have to dump Royce or Greyson in the deal. Have to, if we're not getting any extra picks.

That's why I don't see this being a good trade for the Suns. We're not getting a treasure chest full of picks for KD but we'll get a couple of decent ones and I think anything that helps us with our future team building I would value higher than a high risk, high reward player for the now and in the short-medium term.

Ishbia might see it differently though. That's why I look at his next few moves in two categories, Hail Mary or No Regrets. Zion would comfortably fall into the Hail Mary category

If we get picks for him, then I'm worried we might use those to get rid of Beal to save money. If we can pawn off Royce in a Zion deal that saves us over 20M this year. That means we don't have to give away more stuff to trade Beal, which is a major plus for me.

[bullsaficianado]

Suns would have to get at least 1 pick back for taking on Williamson and assuming the risk long term. I would actually prefer to trade Durant East. Trading for Williamson is like getting a nice fancy corvette with an unknown problem that could literally break down anytime.

[garrick]

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Other than the harassment stuff and being a jerk -- I would rather have Bobby S than Ishbia

Both are pretty bad! Sarver is like a veery cheap, miserly version of Donald Sterling! And Ishbia is like a rich, narcissistically compulsive version of Ted Stepien. It's crazy that we've gone between both polar extremes of super cheeap azzhat to recklessly compulsive overspender! The law of averages would say that our next owner should fall in the range of a more normal, happy medium!

Sarver was cheap in his initial years but once we started getting good he wasn't really being a cheapskate and was willing to spend.

Sure the racist comments were made in poor taste but the media blew it out of proportion and he certainly was not a Donald Sterling, Silver panicked and forced Sarver to sell to the worst person possible mid season so I hate Silver just as much as I hate Mat Ishbia.

Doomed our franchise to be a basement dweller at least for the next 10 years so our only hope to get out of it is to nail our future lottery picks after 2031.

[Slim Charless]

Suns would have to get at least 1 pick back for taking on Williamson and assuming the risk long term. I would actually prefer to trade Durant East. Trading for Williamson is like getting a nice fancy corvette with an unknown problem that could literally break down anytime.

Zion scores in the paint at the same clip as Prime Shaq.

No joke. Look it up. Just gotta keep him healthy

[lilfishi22]

To mitigate the risk of Zion and the fact that we're moving KD for him, we have to dump Royce or Greyson in the deal. Have to, if we're not getting any extra picks.

That's why I don't see this being a good trade for the Suns. We're not getting a treasure chest full of picks for KD but we'll get a couple of decent ones and I think anything that helps us with our future team building I would value higher than a high risk, high reward player for the now and in the short-medium term.

Ishbia might see it differently though. That's why I look at his next few moves in two categories, Hail Mary or No Regrets. Zion would comfortably fall into the Hail Mary category

If we get picks for him, then I'm worried we might use those to get rid of Beal to save money. If we can pawn off Royce in a Zion deal that saves us over 20M this year. That means we don't have to give away more stuff to trade Beal, which is a major plus for me.

I would certainly use a pick to offload Beal. I don't have an issue with that as long as it's not a likely lotto pick. We have no appetite to keep Beal around and I'd rather give up a pick than have massive dead salary in the books.

[Ghost of Kleine]

Shouldnt Beal have taught us something? When someone shows you they are physically unable to stay on the court, you should probably believe them. Zion is fantastic in his limited court time, but how do you build/plan around that extreme level of unreliability? Someone will look like a genius for getting him on the cheap if he miraculously starts playing games, but the chances of that are slim to none.

Absolutely valid point! But again, much of the implied risk should be offset by the fact that, unlike Beal, his issues are more of the conditioning nature than chronic injuries due to wear and tear. But moreover, the implied risk is really mitigated by the fact that none of his remaining three years are guaranteed at all. His 3-year extension is fully non-guaranteed. So unlike Beal, any team trading for him can waive him at no incurred additional cost beyond what was given up initially in trade. So if he misses his target weight in weigh-ins, and/or misses significant playing time per his included provisions, he can be waived without any financial detriment. And he doesn't have any NTC.

This dramatically mitigates the implied risks surrounding him for any receiving team! And with Ishbia not worrying about money, He can assign a fitness/ accountability team to monitor him on a regular basis to ensure accountability towards ideal conditioning! And Zion himself, being aware of the very serious provisions and optics around him without having any contractual guarantees going forward, should be very motivated to prove he still deserves a place as an NBA max player. These are conditions that, if utilized correctly, should illicit a higher probability for success than what he had in New Orleans.

He'll also be very motivated to prove the doubters wrong and ensure his next contract rather than possibly finding his way out of the NBA and being labeled a bust! I look at this as a kind of cyclical reiteration of the Barkley trade that elevated our team, surprisingly, to the finals. And see Zion in a somewhat similar archetype and situation as Charles Barkley himself, possibly.

I don't think it's just conditioning. It's more than that. Pre-draft there were serious concerns about his long term health not just because of his weight but just his build, the immense level of athleticism on his joints and of course, the conditioning issues he's had which have already done damage to his body. To suggest it's largely conditioning thing and there isn't serious wear and tear concerns with Zion would not be correct.

And you're right, there are some risk mitigation due to the nature of Zion's contract but even if he was healthy for most of the way through, he'd have another 3 seasons of additional wear and tear on his body and whatever injuries he may pick up at the end of that period and what then? I just don't see a long term player in Zion even if he was somewhat healthy. And if he's not unexpectedly injured for some period of time that would mean he's remaining years aren't guaranteed, then you'd have nothing to show for a KD trade.

I'd rather just get some picks and maybe a young guy with some potential over Zion.

Well, I'd honestly view this as a 3-year experiment of what a change of scenery/ different environment and overall situation might do for him? And with the extension aligning with that 3-year test run of Zion, we should have a really good idea of his long-range outcome and whether or not he can course correct from his past issues and habitual tendencies. And Yes! his contract would still be unguaranteed for his remaining Well, I'd honestly view this as a 3-year experiment of what a change of scenery/ different environment and overall situation might do for him? And with the extension aligning with that 3-year test run of Zion, we should have a really good idea of his long-range outcome and whether or not he can course correct from his past issues and habitual tendencies. And YES, remaining years would still be fully non-guaranteed!

AI Overview

Zion Williamson's contract with the New Orleans Pelicans is a five-year, $197.2 million extension, which includes a games-played trigger that can impact the guarantee of the final three years. The final three years are no longer guaranteed if he fails to play a certain number of games, as he did in the 2022-23 season, which triggered the clause. This means the Pelicans could waive Williamson after the 2024-25 season without financial repercussions.

Here's a breakdown of the contract:
- Signed: July 2022
- Years: Five years
- Total Value: $197.2 million
- Guarantee: The final three years are no longer fully guaranteed due to a games-played clause triggered by his performance in the 2022-23 season.

Options for Pelicans:

Waive Williamson after the 2024-25 season without financial penalties.
**Guarantee his 2025-26 salary by playing in at least 61 games during the 2024-25 season. (He's already failed that stipulation)!!
Weight Clause: The contract also includes a weight clause that could further reduce guaranteed money.

So he could be waived at any point without penalty or additional cost to the team, due to triggering that stipulation! So at best we'll have added an "alpha' tier 1A option for Booker to play off of that would answer our critical needs for an elite athletic, physically dominant, dynamic, still young franchise player that could help us remain competitive and likely (if done correctly change the trajectory of our future! And at worst, if he can't get it together, we could just waive him for 40+ million in cap savings that we could then spread on different players, or trade him on the basis of being a low-risk super high potential impact contributor that would still be non-guaranteed for any receiving team!

And there will be multiple teams willing to talk themselves into his super high potential due to him only being 24 years old, and the financial risk being minimal at best due to his contract provisions! This is one of those very rare buy-low scenarios for a legit franchise-altering talent in which, if he were at all healthy and didn't carry these risks, we'd have no hope of getting him! Our future is already pretty bleak! And this is a very rare opportunity to drastically change our competitive trajectory and future calculus. But even if it somehow didn't work out, his non-guaranteed contract means that an unfavorable outcome wouldn't hurt us much if at all. And wouldn't really make our situation that much worse.

As the saying goes............................................... " The juice is worth the squeeze"!!
This could end up being our Barkley 2.0 type energizing trade. And Zion, knowing well the conditions of his contract being non-guaranteed and the optics involved with his failures, He'd come in more motivated than ever to prove he still belongs in the NBA and is still an elite player! All things that bode well for us, honestly!

[lilfishi22]

Other than the harassment stuff and being a jerk -- I would rather have Bobby S than Ishbia

Both are pretty bad! Sarver is like a veery cheap, miserly version of Donald Sterling! And Ishbia is like a rich, narcissistically compulsive version of Ted Stepien. It's crazy that we've gone between both polar extremes of super cheeap azzhat to recklessly compulsive overspender! The law of averages would say that our next owner should fall in the range of a more normal, happy medium!

Sarver was cheap in his initial years but once we started getting good he wasn't really being a cheapskate and was willing to spend.

Sure the racist comments were made in poor taste but the media blew it out of proportion and he certainly was not a Donald Sterling, Silver panicked and forced Sarver to sell to the worst person possible mid season so I hate Silver just as much as I hate Mat Ishbia.

Doomed our franchise to be a basement dweller at least for the next 10 years so our only hope to get out of it is to nail our future lottery picks after 2031.

You're either OK with the casual racism or you're not. I'm not and I'm glad he's no longer the owner of the Suns

Also happy to be corrected but I don't believe Sarver ever paidthe luxury tax post the Nash Era. We were on the hook for it and he put together the team that ended up paying the tax but he never did. Ish had to foot the bill

[Ghost of Kleine]

Suns would have to get at least 1 pick back for taking on Williamson and assuming the risk long term. I would actually prefer to trade Durant East. Trading for Williamson is like getting a nice fancy corvette with an unknown problem that could literally break down anytime.

Zion scores in the paint at the same clip as Prime Shaq.

No joke. Look it up. Just gotta keep him healthy

Bring in Chris Paul and Pat Beverly to help keep an eye on him and hold him accountable/ fire him up! And of course, Ishbia can hire an elite conditioning team to also keep him on track, focused, and in tip-top shape?

[Ghost of Kleine]

Suns would have to get at least 1 pick back for taking on Williamson and assuming the risk long term. I would actually prefer to trade Durant East. Trading for Williamson is like getting a nice fancy corvette with an unknown problem that could literally break down anytime.

That's just the thing, though, there really wouldn't be much, if any, long-term risk as his contracts' remaining years are fully non-guaranteed!