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Game 45: The Booker Watch against the Hawks.

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Re: Game 45: The Booker Watch against the Hawks. 

Post#321 » by NavLDO » Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:25 pm

RunDogGun wrote:
dremill24 wrote:Wow..he makes one lucky shot and thinks he can just talk like he knows better than anyone what to do in that situation? Obviously the fact that he made it will keep a good number of people off his back about it, but man if I was Jeff I'd be fuming at that comment.

Just like last year, when he said he didn't know his role. I'm starting to think Goodwin is just dumb. :(


I And 1'd, because I think you are mostly correct, but I don't think he's 'dumb' necessarily, just young and easily influenced by Kieff. I honestly believe that given some time away from the MoBros, he'll change a bit. Maybe not completely, but if he's surrounded by 'better' influences, he'll hopefully 'mellow', a bit.
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Re: Game 45: The Booker Watch against the Hawks. 

Post#322 » by Jarlaxle0204 » Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:28 pm

I actually watched Archie say that to Tom Chambers and Tom Leander. He wasn't joking at all. Also, I didn't hear him say the play was for Alex for a 3. I heard him just say the play was for Alex. I'm glad the shot went in but I'm not ecstatic about him deciding he wasn't going to run the play no matter what. LeBron can do that. Archie Goodwin hasn't earned that right.

Aside from that, a really fun game to watch. Although I'm hoping for as many ping pong balls as possible (as I think that's really our only way out of purgatory), I was up and jumping and rooting for the team all throughout the end.

The team still doesn't guard the 3 point line at all though and we were lucky more 3's didn't fall for Atlanta. We need to get up in their faces on the 3 point line. Especially when we have two big bodies ready to defend the paint down low in Len and Chandler in case someone blows by their defender.
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Re: Game 45: The Booker Watch against the Hawks. 

Post#323 » by jcsunsfan » Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:55 pm

NavLDO wrote:
RunDogGun wrote:
dremill24 wrote:Wow..he makes one lucky shot and thinks he can just talk like he knows better than anyone what to do in that situation? Obviously the fact that he made it will keep a good number of people off his back about it, but man if I was Jeff I'd be fuming at that comment.

Just like last year, when he said he didn't know his role. I'm starting to think Goodwin is just dumb. :(


I And 1'd, because I think you are mostly correct, but I don't think he's 'dumb' necessarily, just young and easily influenced by Kieff. I honestly believe that given some time away from the MoBros, he'll change a bit. Maybe not completely, but if he's surrounded by 'better' influences, he'll hopefully 'mellow', a bit.


No. I think its who Archie is. Its why he hasn't improved and gotten more playing time. He is so wise in his own eyes he is unwilling to learn from others or run what his coach wants. He is certainly too dumb to say the right thing. He turned one of his best NBA moments completely sideways.
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Re: Game 45: The Booker Watch against the Hawks. 

Post#324 » by RunDogGun » Mon Jan 25, 2016 4:56 pm

jcsunsfan wrote:
NavLDO wrote:
RunDogGun wrote:Just like last year, when he said he didn't know his role. I'm starting to think Goodwin is just dumb. :(


I And 1'd, because I think you are mostly correct, but I don't think he's 'dumb' necessarily, just young and easily influenced by Kieff. I honestly believe that given some time away from the MoBros, he'll change a bit. Maybe not completely, but if he's surrounded by 'better' influences, he'll hopefully 'mellow', a bit.


No. I think its who Archie is. Its why he hasn't improved and gotten more playing time. He is so wise in his own eyes he is unwilling to learn from others or run what his coach wants. He is certainly too dumb to say the right thing. He turned one of his best NBA moments completely sideways.

It's a bummer, because he has skills.
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Re: Game 45: The Booker Watch against the Hawks. 

Post#325 » by ImNotMcDiSwear » Mon Jan 25, 2016 5:08 pm

I think everything everyone is saying about Archie is nonsense. That is all.
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Re: Game 45: The Booker Watch against the Hawks. 

Post#326 » by jcsunsfan » Mon Jan 25, 2016 6:00 pm

cosmofizzo wrote:I think everything everyone is saying about Archie is nonsense. That is all.


The video is right there. Its hard to refute.
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Re: Game 45: The Booker Watch against the Hawks. 

Post#327 » by bwgood77 » Mon Jan 25, 2016 6:29 pm

AtheJ415 wrote:
RunDogGun wrote:
AtheJ415 wrote:
With most players yes, but Warren playing so little is inexcusable. I still don't understand why he's not playing more, particularly with the injuries at the 4. Jeff needs to get creative and find at least 25 minutes a night for TJ.

TJ had the most minutes off the bench, so I'm not sure what you'd be complaining about. The starters played better, hence more minutes last night. We started probably the youngest backcourt that I know of. TJ has been averaging around that many minutes for the last eleven games, even with that 3 minute game he had. TJ needs to improve on rebounds and defense.


He got 16 minutes. How are you not sure what I'm complaining about? I literally said his minutes. The fact that they happened to be the most of the bench players is pretty immaterial here. 16 minutes is not enough. Not when his numbers show what they show and not when this team is in the situation that it's in. If it's about playing better, then TJ deserves more minutes than PJ all season, but he hasn't gotten those. PJ needs to improve on everything offensively, but that's never stopped him from getting minutes. The overall numbers drastically favor TJ.


You keep mentioning that overall numbers drastically favor TJ. Every time I look it up, this isn't what I see. Exactly what numbers are you talking about?

Now don't get me wrong, I'd rather see much more of Booker and Warren than older guys, but the numbers don't say what you say they do....and the reason Warren and Booker rank so low is because their defense is really bad..you can follow the links to see the breakdown of the below numbers of what makes up the net number between offensive or defensive RPM/BPM

If I go to basketball reference and look at BPM
a box score estimate based of the points per 100 possessions a player contributed above a league avg player, translated to an avg team


Under the advanced section, if you sort by BPM, the list comes out as:

Bledsoe 3.1
Tucker .3
Price .2
Teletovic 0
Knight -.4
Leuer -.5
Warren -.9
Chandler -1.1
Len -2.3
Booker -2.8
Goodwin -4.2
Markieff -5.5

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHO/2016.html

If you sort by VORP (value over replacement player), the list is:

Bledsoe 1.4
Tucker .7
Knight .6
Teletovic .4
Price .3
Leuer .3
Warren .3
Chandler .2
Len -.1
Booker -.2
Goodwin -.2
Markieff -.6

And here are the RPM ratings for each of our players this year. For those who don't know what RPM is, here is the description
RPM: Player's estimated on-court impact on team performance, measured in net point differential per 100 offensive and defensive possessions. RPM takes into account teammates, opponents and additional factors


Bledsoe 3.03
Price .57
Teletovic .55
Leuer .44
Chandler -.93
Len -1.01
Tucker -1.2
Knight -1.63
Warren -1.76
Markieff -2.65
Goodwin -3.6
Booker -3.92

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/1/sort/RPM
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Re: Game 45: The Booker Watch against the Hawks. 

Post#328 » by RunDogGun » Mon Jan 25, 2016 7:20 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
AtheJ415 wrote:
RunDogGun wrote:TJ had the most minutes off the bench, so I'm not sure what you'd be complaining about. The starters played better, hence more minutes last night. We started probably the youngest backcourt that I know of. TJ has been averaging around that many minutes for the last eleven games, even with that 3 minute game he had. TJ needs to improve on rebounds and defense.


He got 16 minutes. How are you not sure what I'm complaining about? I literally said his minutes. The fact that they happened to be the most of the bench players is pretty immaterial here. 16 minutes is not enough. Not when his numbers show what they show and not when this team is in the situation that it's in. If it's about playing better, then TJ deserves more minutes than PJ all season, but he hasn't gotten those. PJ needs to improve on everything offensively, but that's never stopped him from getting minutes. The overall numbers drastically favor TJ.


You keep mentioning that overall numbers drastically favor TJ. Every time I look it up, this isn't what I see. Exactly what numbers are you talking about?

Now don't get me wrong, I'd rather see much more of Booker and Warren than older guys, but the numbers don't say what you say they do....and the reason Warren and Booker rank so low is because their defense is really bad..you can follow the links to see the breakdown of the below numbers of what makes up the net number between offensive or defensive RPM/BPM

If I go to basketball reference and look at BPM
a box score estimate based of the points per 100 possessions a player contributed above a league avg player, translated to an avg team


Under the advanced section, if you sort by BPM, the list comes out as:

Bledsoe 3.1
Tucker .3
Price .2
Teletovic 0
Knight -.4
Leuer -.5
Warren -.9
Chandler -1.1
Len -2.3
Booker -2.8
Goodwin -4.2
Markieff -5.5

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHO/2016.html

If you sort by VORP (value over replacement player), the list is:

Bledsoe 1.4
Tucker .7
Knight .6
Teletovic .4
Price .3
Leuer .3
Warren .3
Chandler .2
Len -.1
Booker -.2
Goodwin -.2
Markieff -.6

And here are the RPM ratings for each of our players this year. For those who don't know what RPM is, here is the description
RPM: Player's estimated on-court impact on team performance, measured in net point differential per 100 offensive and defensive possessions. RPM takes into account teammates, opponents and additional factors


Bledsoe 3.03
Price .57
Teletovic .55
Leuer .44
Chandler -.93
Len -1.01
Tucker -1.2
Knight -1.63
Warren -1.76
Markieff -2.65
Goodwin -3.6
Booker -3.92

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/1/sort/RPM

He meant the numbers you may not be able to find. :o Good research BW.
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Re: Game 45: The Booker Watch against the Hawks. 

Post#329 » by thamadkant » Mon Jan 25, 2016 8:16 pm

cosmofizzo wrote:I think everything everyone is saying about Archie is nonsense. That is all.



The haters will find ways.


Some saying Goodwin hasnt improved... Clearly just trolling. He wouldnt be attempting 3s and mid ranges 2 seasons ago.


Again...a few haters here will simply hate. They have Kobe Bryant as the standards for a 29th pick on a 1 million dollar contract who has sat down pretty much all season long.

Goodwin said that play about Len getting the ball with a tongue in cheek. I saw that game and thay last 10 seconds and Hawks covered everyone well and passing it to Len would of led to getting it stripped or him hoisting a very very tough shot.
Goodwin's 3pter wouldnt of been a play for all shooters... He took it because he had the better look.
If anything... Mirza looked like the guy the play was set up for.
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Re: Game 45: The Booker Watch against the Hawks. 

Post#330 » by thamadkant » Mon Jan 25, 2016 8:24 pm

jcsunsfan wrote:
cosmofizzo wrote:I think everything everyone is saying about Archie is nonsense. That is all.


The video is right there. Its hard to refute.




Half the people who saw the interview thinks he was kidding or half serious. The other half thinks he is dead serious. The truth as usual is somewhere in the middle.

Watch the play again. Giving it to Len would of mean Len hoisting a tough tough shot or have it stripped. Hawks defense was established. If anything Mirza was lurking at the elbows and could if been plan A or B. Either way Len was NOT 100% clear to get the ball. Maybe if Goodwin was able to draw 2 men into the key... But hawks stayed on their men and blocked Goodwins path. Giving it to a defended Len would of lead to a defended shot either way. Goodwin nailed it.. Its history.

Goodwin is also 21 and says things like a 21 year old would say.. He also just nailed a buzzer beater in a game he played very well in. But instead of just being happy for him... Lets just focus on the negatives shall we.

This forum has become just full of haters. Even for the young players.
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Re: Game 45: The Booker Watch against the Hawks. 

Post#331 » by RunDogGun » Mon Jan 25, 2016 8:46 pm

1UPZ wrote:
jcsunsfan wrote:
cosmofizzo wrote:I think everything everyone is saying about Archie is nonsense. That is all.


The video is right there. Its hard to refute.




Half the people who saw the interview thinks he was kidding or half serious. The other half thinks he is dead serious. The truth as usual is somewhere in the middle.

Watch the play again. Giving it to Len would of mean Len hoisting a tough tough shot or have it stripped. Hawks defense was established. If anything Mirza was lurking at the elbows and could if been plan A or B.

Goodwin is also 21 and says things like a 21 year old would say.. He also just nailed a buzzer beater in a game he played very well in. But instead of just being happy for him... Lets just focus on the negatives shall we.

This forum has become just full of haters. Even for the young players.


I said right away that he had a great game. The comment after the game was just stupid.

I completely disagree with your take on the play. Len made the high screen, and rolled towards the basket with a guard on him a whole foot shorter. Initially Len has a somewhat open shot, if the pass came right off the screen, with plenty of time to get a good shot. When the pass doesn't come he took that smaller player closer to the basket. Ending around the free throw line. He was hitting the midrange shots and was 6-10 for the game. He not only had the better shot, but the better percentage for the game. But instead Goodwin took a contested three, when we only needed a two, with a larger player switched on him, and at the time was 6-16. He just isn't very smart, and his comments back that. After rewatching it again, Len didn't move as quickly as I initially saw, but still has a much smaller player on him, if a high pass was given. And he ends almost at the basket.

Overall, he isn't a point guard (both our centers had more assists than him), and he isn't a better sg than Booker. Last he isn't a better SF than Warren. So it just doesn't leave him with much room. He should have worked his arse off on his handles once we drafted Booker, but oh well. I think he is a good kid, who works hard, but his thoughts of his abilities are higher than the actual abilities.

I don't hate him at all, and was very happy and proud of his last game. He should just keep his mouth shut, and watch Bull Durham for interviews. :D
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Re: Game 45: The Booker Watch against the Hawks. 

Post#332 » by RunDogGun » Mon Jan 25, 2016 9:06 pm

1UPZ wrote:Image

He really does look like a young MJ there lol.

He can pass as MJs son anyways lol

I still see more of a Cliff Robinson in the face. They both have that scowl, which I always liked. If he could really work on his handles, and passing, I don't see why he couldn't be our backup point guard. But I just don't know if he is smart enough to do it. To me, he plays a lot like Bledsoe. The highlight reel St posted, which unfortunately doesn't show his assists, showed similar hero type playing that many here have been ripping both Bledsoe and Knight for.

But I'll gladly eat crow, if he steps things up, and I don't want him traded.
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Re: Game 45: The Booker Watch against the Hawks. 

Post#333 » by ImNotMcDiSwear » Mon Jan 25, 2016 9:49 pm

RunDogGun wrote:I still see more of a Cliff Robinson in the face.


Totally! Great comp.

RunDogGun wrote:To me, he plays a lot like Bledsoe. The highlight reel St posted, which unfortunately doesn't show his assists, showed similar hero type playing that many here have been ripping both Bledsoe and Knight for.


Totally disagree. But I feel like I've spoken on this point ad nauseum here and elsewhere.
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Re: Game 45: The Booker Watch against the Hawks. 

Post#334 » by nevetsov » Mon Jan 25, 2016 10:32 pm

In the interview I saw on the Suns app, Archie followed up the initial "Alex for 3" comment with a "just joking" explanation, where he discusses the real play, which was to draw a double and look for Len at the FT line unguarded. Len had more coverage than they were expecting so he had to make a play himself.
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Re: Game 45: The Booker Watch against the Hawks. 

Post#335 » by Mulhollanddrive » Mon Jan 25, 2016 11:49 pm

Coaching staff reaction was underwhelming.
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Re: Game 45: The Booker Watch against the Hawks. 

Post#336 » by bwgood77 » Tue Jan 26, 2016 2:14 am

nevetsov wrote:In the interview I saw on the Suns app, Archie followed up the initial "Alex for 3" comment with a "just joking" explanation, where he discusses the real play, which was to draw a double and look for Len at the FT line unguarded. Len had more coverage than they were expecting so he had to make a play himself.


That's exactly what I suspected, because Len is so money from that spot, that it made sense, but he was well guarded, and Archie couldn't drive in, and was double teamed out so far, so had to throw up a three, and lucky for him, and for those wanting us to win, it went in. For the record I'd rather win so was happy to win. I also want to win the lottery but I don't think anyone has a great chance and it is a crapshoot. We will be in the running for a high pick regardless.
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Re: Game 45: The Booker Watch against the Hawks. 

Post#337 » by AtheJ415 » Tue Jan 26, 2016 3:46 am

bwgood77 wrote:
AtheJ415 wrote:
RunDogGun wrote:TJ had the most minutes off the bench, so I'm not sure what you'd be complaining about. The starters played better, hence more minutes last night. We started probably the youngest backcourt that I know of. TJ has been averaging around that many minutes for the last eleven games, even with that 3 minute game he had. TJ needs to improve on rebounds and defense.


He got 16 minutes. How are you not sure what I'm complaining about? I literally said his minutes. The fact that they happened to be the most of the bench players is pretty immaterial here. 16 minutes is not enough. Not when his numbers show what they show and not when this team is in the situation that it's in. If it's about playing better, then TJ deserves more minutes than PJ all season, but he hasn't gotten those. PJ needs to improve on everything offensively, but that's never stopped him from getting minutes. The overall numbers drastically favor TJ.


You keep mentioning that overall numbers drastically favor TJ. Every time I look it up, this isn't what I see. Exactly what numbers are you talking about?

Now don't get me wrong, I'd rather see much more of Booker and Warren than older guys, but the numbers don't say what you say they do....and the reason Warren and Booker rank so low is because their defense is really bad..you can follow the links to see the breakdown of the below numbers of what makes up the net number between offensive or defensive RPM/BPM

If I go to basketball reference and look at BPM
a box score estimate based of the points per 100 possessions a player contributed above a league avg player, translated to an avg team


Under the advanced section, if you sort by BPM, the list comes out as:

Bledsoe 3.1
Tucker .3
Price .2
Teletovic 0
Knight -.4
Leuer -.5
Warren -.9
Chandler -1.1
Len -2.3
Booker -2.8
Goodwin -4.2
Markieff -5.5

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHO/2016.html

If you sort by VORP (value over replacement player), the list is:

Bledsoe 1.4
Tucker .7
Knight .6
Teletovic .4
Price .3
Leuer .3
Warren .3
Chandler .2
Len -.1
Booker -.2
Goodwin -.2
Markieff -.6

And here are the RPM ratings for each of our players this year. For those who don't know what RPM is, here is the description
RPM: Player's estimated on-court impact on team performance, measured in net point differential per 100 offensive and defensive possessions. RPM takes into account teammates, opponents and additional factors


Bledsoe 3.03
Price .57
Teletovic .55
Leuer .44
Chandler -.93
Len -1.01
Tucker -1.2
Knight -1.63
Warren -1.76
Markieff -2.65
Goodwin -3.6
Booker -3.92

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/1/sort/RPM


BPM is not a good measure unless it's over a long range of time and with comparably equal teammates imo, because it's a 5 person measure and not an individual measure, thus it is indirect. I think it's a good stat when measured over a long period of time or with players in similar situations as each other. Neither is the case here. Here, the players are not playing with the same teammates. PJ gets to play with the starters more, in particular Bledsoe for much of the year, which has helped those numbers. What I'm talking about is WS/48, which is more accurate here since they have the same amount of wins to share. TJ's at .105 is nearly double PJ's at .06. And in fact, for most of the year TJ's was double PJ's. The gap has shrunk to the current .105-.06 advantage due to TJ struggling in limited minutes and PJ's slightly better play of late.

ORtg-DRtg has TJ at +1 and PJ at -3. So that also favors him. And then obviously every offensive stat favors TJ by a lot, while every defensive stat favors PJ. It's just that the gap is clearly wider with TJ's offensive advantage.

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&y1=2016&p1=warretj01&y2=2016&p2=tuckepj01&p3=&p4=&p5=&p6=
[/url]
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Re: Game 45: The Booker Watch against the Hawks. 

Post#338 » by AtheJ415 » Tue Jan 26, 2016 3:48 am

RunDogGun wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
AtheJ415 wrote:
He got 16 minutes. How are you not sure what I'm complaining about? I literally said his minutes. The fact that they happened to be the most of the bench players is pretty immaterial here. 16 minutes is not enough. Not when his numbers show what they show and not when this team is in the situation that it's in. If it's about playing better, then TJ deserves more minutes than PJ all season, but he hasn't gotten those. PJ needs to improve on everything offensively, but that's never stopped him from getting minutes. The overall numbers drastically favor TJ.


You keep mentioning that overall numbers drastically favor TJ. Every time I look it up, this isn't what I see. Exactly what numbers are you talking about?

Now don't get me wrong, I'd rather see much more of Booker and Warren than older guys, but the numbers don't say what you say they do....and the reason Warren and Booker rank so low is because their defense is really bad..you can follow the links to see the breakdown of the below numbers of what makes up the net number between offensive or defensive RPM/BPM

If I go to basketball reference and look at BPM
a box score estimate based of the points per 100 possessions a player contributed above a league avg player, translated to an avg team


Under the advanced section, if you sort by BPM, the list comes out as:

Bledsoe 3.1
Tucker .3
Price .2
Teletovic 0
Knight -.4
Leuer -.5
Warren -.9
Chandler -1.1
Len -2.3
Booker -2.8
Goodwin -4.2
Markieff -5.5

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHO/2016.html

If you sort by VORP (value over replacement player), the list is:

Bledsoe 1.4
Tucker .7
Knight .6
Teletovic .4
Price .3
Leuer .3
Warren .3
Chandler .2
Len -.1
Booker -.2
Goodwin -.2
Markieff -.6

And here are the RPM ratings for each of our players this year. For those who don't know what RPM is, here is the description
RPM: Player's estimated on-court impact on team performance, measured in net point differential per 100 offensive and defensive possessions. RPM takes into account teammates, opponents and additional factors


Bledsoe 3.03
Price .57
Teletovic .55
Leuer .44
Chandler -.93
Len -1.01
Tucker -1.2
Knight -1.63
Warren -1.76
Markieff -2.65
Goodwin -3.6
Booker -3.92

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/1/sort/RPM

He meant the numbers you may not be able to find. :o Good research BW.


Nope. They're right there at basketball reference. WS/48 and Offensive-defensive differential, which are both, imo, better numbers to use for guys playing on the same team but in different roles and as different types of players. But hey, different strokes.
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Re: Game 45: The Booker Watch against the Hawks. 

Post#339 » by bwgood77 » Tue Jan 26, 2016 4:01 am

AtheJ415 wrote:
Nope. They're right there at basketball reference. WS/48 and Offensive-defensive differential, which are both, imo, better numbers to use for guys playing on the same team but in different roles and as different types of players. But hey, different strokes.


Well regardless, you are cherry picking stats, and I figured you might resort to win shares, which I don't like as much, but clearly "all the advanced stats" don't favor Warren over Tucker. And again, for the record, right now, I would play Warren as much as possible over Tucker because of the state of our team, but despite people hating Hornacek, he has seemed to get the most out of young players, particularly in season one, but when he first gave Booker and Warren big minutes they did well....when he gives them fewer I imagine he has a good reason.

I don't think the "throwing guys out there because they are young" tactic is a proven tactic, though some will resort to 1 in a million player like LeBron or Kobe or whoever.
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Re: Game 45: The Booker Watch against the Hawks. 

Post#340 » by RunDogGun » Tue Jan 26, 2016 4:16 am

bwgood77 wrote:
AtheJ415 wrote:
Nope. They're right there at basketball reference. WS/48 and Offensive-defensive differential, which are both, imo, better numbers to use for guys playing on the same team but in different roles and as different types of players. But hey, different strokes.


Well regardless, you are cherry picking stats, and I figured you might resort to win shares, which I don't like as much, but clearly "all the advanced stats" don't favor Warren over Tucker. And again, for the record, right now, I would play Warren as much as possible over Tucker because of the state of our team, but despite people hating Hornacek, he has seemed to get the most out of young players, particularly in season one, but when he first gave Booker and Warren big minutes they did well....when he gives them fewer I imagine he has a good reason.

I don't think the "throwing guys out there because they are young" tactic is a proven tactic, though some will resort to 1 in a million player like LeBron or Kobe or whoever.

I'm not worried about Warren's minutes vs Tucker's minutes right now, for it's been shown that they can coexist. And actually I like when Jeff plays starters with their subs at the same time.

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