Pre Draft Discussion

[jredsaz]

BW is a party pooper............. On Allen and Holiday..

What about Kevin Heurter over Allen BW?

That's classic potential vs production. They way Allen tested athletically really opened my eyes.

[bwgood77]

If Trae were available at 10, the Sixers would make it fairly easy for us, and I would give up a reasonable amount to get him.

I don’t think any other point guards are better than Holiday, no. He has something I can’t quite describe. I know I’m watching a leader with impeccable court vision. He can shoot, he can defend, he can lead, he can score. He’s a steal outside of the top 10.

The weaknesses the Stepien lists concern me. I didn't see him a lot though..

Turns the ball over far too often. Throws ball into traffic and randomly falls over. Doesn’t anticipate defenses very well. 4.0 TOV/40, 1.54:1 A:TO ratio.
Effort on defense is very inconsistent. Gets beat off the dribble far too easily at times. Content playing from behind rather than working to recover.
Loose handle in traffic. Struggles with ball pressure. Will need to add ball security if he wants to be a lead guard in the NBA. Can’t be an off-guard at 6-foot-1.
Plays with a one-track mind at times. Often looks off teammates in favor of tough looks. Has some bad moments where he forces the issue and kills the offense.
Can struggle with touch on shots around the rim. 49th percentile on shots around the basket. Explosive horizontally but rarely finishes above the rim in traffic.
Too jumpy on perimeter. Flies out on closeouts rather than staying under control. Doesn’t have much margin for error due to subpar size.
Feel for the game is lacking in most areas. Rarely makes advanced reads as a passer. Doesn’t have very good anticipation on either end.
Occasionally takes bad angles through screens. Defensive effort is a plus but his overall technique is mostly disappointing.

https://www.thestepien.com/aaron-holiday/

The Stepien consistently has Bagley over Ayton. What do they know?

Actually more of their writers rank Ayton ahead of Bagley but one guy has Bagley a few spots higher so in their composite they end up in the same tier right next to each other. Overall they rank them about the same.

I just wasn't impressed the last time I saw Holiday when he played AZ in the PAC 12 tourney. He was 5-20 from the field, 3-12 from 3 with 3 assists 3 turnovers. And he's small.

But I haven't seen him a ton.

I would really like to have a good passing PG instead of a guy that jacks up a lot of shots. Reading about him he sounds a lot like Knight, and I know a lot of people like Knight, but I'd rather go for a better playmaker...with more size to defend.

At least overall he shot well from deep though so that's a plus even though it wasn't against the greatest competition.

[jredsaz]

Would love Zhaire Smith to slide to #16

Any of these guys who fall to #16 I would grab in a heartbeat:

Bridges
Knox
Smith
Walker

I don't understand the fascination with Lonnie Walker. What am I missing?

If he can improve his handle he could be a monster.

[jredsaz]

I think that's where the buzz began, but that he really impressed at the combine. And once it was rumored that Ainge had an interest, that gave further credibility to his ascension.

Milton and Shamet seem to have been dropping. Khyri seems to be dropping in several mocks. Shai and Zhaire a bit as well. Aaron Holiday seems to have moved up a bit.

Khryi has dropped like crazy in many mocks. He was going as high as lottery in some mocks and is now going very, very end of the 1st in mocks.

If he somehow slipped to #31, I'd take him and call it a great night. Doubt it happens though.

Yeah. At 31 he would be awesome. The 16-31 spots have a lot of really solid guards. Khyri can be a monster defender. i am kind of hoping Smith falls to 16 and we get Shamet at 31, but his projections seem to be all over the place. I like Khyri too though a lot.

Picks 15 through 40 can go anywhere. Lots of parody in this draft with guards. Not much front court talent outside of the top 10. Big wings are few and far between as well. It's going to cone down to team preference.

[AtheJ415]

I have to say, I would absolutely hate Holiday at 16. 31 okay, but even then he is firmly behind guys like Shamet and Melton for me.

He has talent and can hit difficult shots, which is valuable, but his IQ is horrendous. He overdribbles frequently, constantly forces the issue, and if you even watch 3 minutes of highlights you see the dude passing up open shooters to take wild spin moves and force up other shots while barreling into 3 defenders. He reminds me a lot of a smaller Brandon Knight, and I just can't get behind that. I like his 3 point shooting, and I get he plays with effort, but I think a guy like Shamet is such a better fit at PG for us, and I just don't see the value at 16 relative to some of the wings or combo guys that will be there.

Another issue is that even if Holiday is a good defender, he is too small to guard more than the 1 spot, meaning you can't switch him onto many of the 2s and 3s in this league. You can do that with Melton, Milton, and Shamet.

Also, he turns it over a ton. Against Cincinnati he single-handedly lost that game due to some uncontrollable urge to throw it directly into 2 opposing players damn near every time down the court.

[8on]

The weaknesses the Stepien lists concern me. I didn't see him a lot though..



https://www.thestepien.com/aaron-holiday/

The Stepien consistently has Bagley over Ayton. What do they know?

Actually more of their writers rank Ayton ahead of Bagley but one guy has Bagley a few spots higher so in their composite they end up in the same tier right next to each other. Overall they rank them about the same.

I just wasn't impressed the last time I saw Holiday when he played AZ in the PAC 12 tourney. He was 5-20 from the field, 3-12 from 3 with 3 assists 3 turnovers. And he's small.

But I haven't seen him a ton.

I would really like to have a good passing PG instead of a guy that jacks up a lot of shots. Reading about him he sounds a lot like Knight, and I know a lot of people like Knight, but I'd rather go for a better playmaker...with more size to defend.

At least overall he shot well from deep though so that's a plus even though it wasn't against the greatest competition.

For what it’s worth, check out the rest of UCLA’s squad.

He had more responsibility, probably than any other Pac 12 player, because the rest of that team can’t score or make plays. It was all on him. It’ll be much easier for him with professionals.

Let’s see if I can find what makes me feel this way about him

[JMac1]

Without shoes he's 5'11.75 With shoes 6 ft .75

Here is all the historical combine data..

https://public.tableau.com/profile/jared.dubin#!/vizhome/NBACombine/Sheet1

man...he can't jump. 25.5 standing vert, that's horrible!! 33 max, that's worse. So disappointed

Man a lot basketball players can't jump compared to football players. These guys need to do more plyos, dead lifts and squats.........horrible!

Yeah, someone compared him to Kemba but Kemba has 32 standing vert and 39.5 max. Brunson is at 29 and 37. Landry Shamet 31 and 39.5.

Yea at worst these guys should be at 32inch standing, If they are considered athletes. Also, not a fan of the max. two step standing is ok, but max only happens on fastbreaks. No one legged stuff. Sorry Ayton

[Kerrsed]

Read on Twitter

This idea is growing on me more and more.

[bwgood77]

BW is a party pooper............. On Allen and Holiday..

What about Kevin Heurter over Allen BW?

I didn't see him at all, so I don't have a strong opinion either way. Looking at his #s looks like he can shoot and has size and from what read he sounds decent.

I wonder why we haven't taken a look at Josh Okogie if we are looking at 3&D wings.

[JMac1]

BW is a party pooper............. On Allen and Holiday..

What about Kevin Heurter over Allen BW?

That's classic potential vs production. They way Allen tested athletically really opened my eyes.

You like Allen better?

[BobbieL]

Read on Twitter

This idea is growing on me more and more.

I agree - love the idea of Allen at 31 unless that pick is traded. But if its kept - really like him right there. He would contribute - I do believe - next year.

[JMac1]

BW is a party pooper............. On Allen and Holiday..

What about Kevin Heurter over Allen BW?

I didn't see him at all, so I don't have a strong opinion either way. Looking at his #s looks like he can shoot and has size and from what read he sounds decent.

I wonder why we haven't taken a look at Josh Okogie if we are looking at 3&D wings.

Is he purely a 3? Allen could handle the ball and of course Holiday can. I like those two for that reason. You could run Holiday Allen Booker JJ and Ayton lineups at times

3 shooters a slasher and Ayton. Obviously they are young and it would be at moments, but there is some spacing there.

[MrMiyagi]

I want no part of Grayson Allen.

[AtheJ415]

I really think the priority after we pick at 1 needs to be versatile defenders and knockdown shooters. Maybe at 59 we can go away from that for a backup C like McCoy if he's BPA, but I can't get behind Holiday, Grayson, etc. relative to some of the other guys in this draft who can guard multiple spots AND hit 3s.

The only exception I can really get behind is at 16 if Zhaire, SGA, or Robert Williams fell.

Because really if we go Ayton or Doncic, we will have enough primary offensive options between the selection, Booker, and Jackson being able to playmake a bit. We will still need a playmaking 1 with either imo, but that is a different discussion for next year's FA or the trade market imo. The most prudent thing is to start stockpiling 3 and D guys at various positions imo.

[bwgood77]

BW is a party pooper............. On Allen and Holiday..

What about Kevin Heurter over Allen BW?

I didn't see him at all, so I don't have a strong opinion either way. Looking at his #s looks like he can shoot and has size and from what read he sounds decent.

I wonder why we haven't taken a look at Josh Okogie if we are looking at 3&D wings.

Is he purely a 3? Allen could handle the ball and of course Holiday can. I like those two for that reason. You could run Holiday Allen Booker JJ and Ayton lineups at times

3 shooters a slasher and Ayton. Obviously they are young and it would be at moments, but there is some spacing there.

I can't say I'm terribly low on Holiday because I haven't seen him at all. I just don't have much of an opinion either way. What I read doesn't inspire me a lot as I mentioned but I'm open minded.

But when I had lists of point guards this season I was higher on other guys like Milton and Shamet.

With Allen it's more that he just rubs me the wrong way. It feels like he acts like a crybaby and cheats/pouts but that might be the wrong impression.

If he was an absolutely elite shooter I'd probably like him more. But he is a very solid shooter and he has over a 2 to 1 ast/to ratio and at least is scrappy on defense so I think he'd be a smart player who played hard. Even though he was throwing up bricks against Kansas it certainly wasn't for a lack of effort.

I might also be a little bit lower just because the last time I saw him was playing Kansas and throwing up bricks...and I was pulling for Kansas.

He did shoot a higher % from 3 than Tatum last year at Duke on higher volume. It's interesting looking at that team's numbers.

Tatum shot 34.2% from 3
Allen shot 36.5% from 3
Kennard shot 43.8% from 3

I wonder if Dwane Casey will be able to get Kennard to break out this season. I mean if you look at the FT% which is a good indicator....

Tatum - 84.9%
Allen - 81.1%
Kennard - 85.6%

They need to really get that guy going, though I guess he did shoot 41.5% from 3 this year on decent volume so he hit the ground running at least with his shot.

[Frank Lee]

I want no part of Grayson Allen.

I want no part of anyone

These picks are for trading !

[jredsaz]

BW is a party pooper............. On Allen and Holiday..

What about Kevin Heurter over Allen BW?

That's classic potential vs production. They way Allen tested athletically really opened my eyes.

You like Allen better?

I do. But this is a perfect example of how this draft could play out. Heurter could absolutly end up the better pro. Either could fall. Heuter had the higher cieling and lower floor imo and has the opportunity to go higher.

I hate duke and Allen was just awful. But he competes, can shoot, and has the athleticism to play respectable d. He is growing on me.

[bwgood77]

I really wish we would bring in Gary Clark. One of the best defenders in college, tough, shot 43% from 3, does everything. I don't know if he will be a starter but I think he will provide toughness and heart. And he could play 4. I still have hopes for Bender and Chriss but I think you could potentially plug him in at 4 right now and give us a lot more toughness.

Watch on YouTube

[MrMiyagi]

I want no part of Grayson Allen.

I want no part of anyone

These picks are for trading !

I'm not opposed to that. I think Ayton is the last infusion of young talent we need. Time to get a difference-making vet, instead of the warm and fuzzies we've had of late.

[ATTL]

Shaq harrison has the team record in that 3 minute run with 29.

Aaron holiday had 28, I don't know how much the suns put into that run, but they have shaq on the roster now.