The Draft Thread: Ayton Vs Doncic 1

[sunsbum]

All I know is we are getting a better shooting shorter Ben Simmons or a taller more polished Amare. I'm ok with either of those.

[Mjee]

All I know is we are getting a better shooting shorter Ben Simmons or a taller more polished Amare. I'm ok with either of those.

Yes, we are winners regardless. However, Simmons is more athletic and a better defender. Doncic may be smarter but I can’t see him guarding the Westbrooks, Curry’s, and kyrie Irving’s of the NBA! (I guess you could have JJ guard the point guards)

I just feel like Ayton could become the best center in the NBA and is an automatic 20 and 10 guy !! That kind of production and potential is too good to pass on.

For the record I’m not a U of A fan ... just want what’s best for our suns

[papajoe]

All I know is we are getting a better shooting shorter Ben Simmons or a taller more polished Amare. I'm ok with either of those.

Yes, we are winners regardless. However, Simmons is more athletic and a better defender. Doncic may be smarter but I can’t see him guarding the Westbrooks, Curry’s, and kyrie Irving’s of the NBA! (I guess you could have JJ guard the point guards)

I just feel like Ayton could become the best center in the NBA and is an automatic 20 and 10 guy !! That kind of production and potential is too good to pass on.

For the record I’m not a U of A fan ... just want what’s best for our suns

Basis for calling Doncic smarter?

[Mjee]

All I know is we are getting a better shooting shorter Ben Simmons or a taller more polished Amare. I'm ok with either of those.

Yes, we are winners regardless. However, Simmons is more athletic and a better defender. Doncic may be smarter but I can’t see him guarding the Westbrooks, Curry’s, and kyrie Irving’s of the NBA! (I guess you could have JJ guard the point guards)

I just feel like Ayton could become the best center in the NBA and is an automatic 20 and 10 guy !! That kind of production and potential is too good to pass on.

For the record I’m not a U of A fan ... just want what’s best for our suns

Basis for calling Doncic smarter?

No basis, I should have said .... doncic could become a better decision maker on the floor. That has yet to be seen

[Fo-Real]

If u have Booker and Jackson do you really want Ayton to post up? Is it because of his pick and pop? What is the allure?! I just can't see an instance where I would like a more ball dominant big that would take the ball out of the hands of those two.

He can do what ever is required. Pick and pop pick and roll post up when needed, that’s why he is going to be number 1.

That is my point. You don't want it to be your 1 option. With him you are making It your 1 option. You can get that with outh the ego in WCJ. Not a 1 pick vamlue.

Your #1 option changes game by game by what the defense is taking away. No team ever had to worry about our post game, two man (big little), pick and roll/pop so we have been playing with a hand tied behind our back. Basically if Booker is hitting contested shots (because they **** know that's what's coming) we have a shot at winning. Having a low post threat potentially create space for shooters no matter what order you choose it be the team option, it is just a fluid option to be used as it needs. Let alone a post guy like Ayton who also can step back and shoot it or take his man off the dribble because he is power toward quick. Our number 1 option is what is working THAT GAME so it's good to have the ability to have other gears to switch to. Effective big man play is not just being big, standing low and being available for lobs, if that were the case Ty Chandler would still be the perfect big. More like you need a bucket and you toss it to him in the post, Ayton you then pick your poison, do you double or see if your one on one holds up. If you sag or double you got guys like Book and Bender start smiling, "PLEASE LEAVE ME TO GO HELP", you get guys like Josh and Tj who then cut and move to get to the cup or near the basket. Now, throw the ball to 16th chandler/ Len/ Wcs..... yeah, wait for the pass back out cause what the he'll else could possibly happen. So I guess secondary off ball picks and back cuts to get others OPEN, YEAH, works but now you are using Josh or Tj to get others open instead of being an option to move or cut first.... less active threat.

[pelifan]

It really doesnt matter. Both players will be Suns in 2025 after Sacramento inevitably screws up with the other player.

[Revived]

A selling point for me on Ayton is the mindset of drafting for absolute upside with a number overall pick. Sixers went for this route for 4 years 2013-2017. It’s a situational thing but the most optimal IMO, where a team that can take risk are more suited for this route.

We can’t take risks, we have to nail this pick.

Third longest playoff drought in professional sports and ownership has given a deadline if becoming a contender within next 2 years.

We have to get this pick right, it’s not a luxury or a bonus pick like Boston or something. Need someone who can help make this a playoff team within 2 years and someone who can help make the current players on this team better.

[Revived]

All I know is we are getting a better shooting shorter Ben Simmons or a taller more polished Amare. I'm ok with either of those.

Yes, we are winners regardless. However, Simmons is more athletic and a better defender. Doncic may be smarter but I can’t see him guarding the Westbrooks, Curry’s, and kyrie Irving’s of the NBA! (I guess you could have JJ guard the point guards)

I just feel like Ayton could become the best center in the NBA and is an automatic 20 and 10 guy !! That kind of production and potential is too good to pass on.

For the record I’m not a U of A fan ... just want what’s best for our suns

Basis for calling Doncic smarter?

He didn’t sign with Klutch.

[bwgood77]

He's a very special player. Hopefully Sarver saw that too (who am I kidding?)

It's a shame that for the Suns, Robert Sarver went to the Euroleague semi finals game instead of McDonough. But I do completely understand McD needing to be at the Combine instead to scout other guys especially for picks #16 and 31. It's just that I think Sarver is the type that expects stats like 30 pts, 10 assists, 7 rebounds in order it to be considered impressive without realizing that it is extremely difficult to get good stats in Euroleague due to the way they play. I doubt he must have been impressed with the stats below without taking it in context of how challenging it is to get these numbers due to the style of play in Euroleague and I doubt he appreciates the impact Doncic had on the game which don't show up in the statistics.

Being at a college game vs that type of game should be pretty evident about how much tougher the competition and environment is. And how much younger he is than everyone else out there.

The Madrid-Panathinaikos matchup had shades of last month’s Heat-76ers first-round series, where the less talented team tried to rattle younger stars with physicality. The difference is that European refs tend to let a lot more go than they do in the NBA. Despite the stereotypes, the European game is really rough-and-tumble, which allows players like Thanasis to grab and hold more talented guards like Doncic. He was more than happy to mix it up in return, cracking Thanasis with an elbow in the opening moments of Game 2. “The EuroLeague playoffs defensively are tougher than what Luka will ever face in the NBA,” one European scout told me. “There’s a lot of contact and physical matchups.”

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2018/5/18/17367118/luka-doncic-euroleague-final-four

One of the things I love about Doncic that I have fear about with Ayton is the toughness...particularly the mental toughness. All season long I just wished Ayton would show some toughness. His screens look like Bender's.

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

I hadn't seen this. I think I just fell in love.

Watch on YouTube

I might need a third option on this survey, y'all.

[juanc]

I've taken my time to watch some more Ayton games and his offensive game reminds me a little of Embiid. I kinda think that his offensive ceiling is Embiid.

Watch on YouTube

When looking at these highlights they really love those mid range shots and they both are crafty when they get the ball near the basket. But when it comes to defense, then there's a big difference. Yes, he has all the tools to be a great defender, but so does Embiid the difference is that Jo has those instincts that can't be taught.
Maybe he wasn't able to show his whole defensive repertoair becouse he was playing out of position, but on the other side maybe his rebounding numbers were a bit inflated becouse he was guarded by the opposite PF's(The only reason i've mentioned that is becouse some of you guys are sure that he will come to the league and immediately average a double-double).

When I look at the best C's in the league( 1. Davis, 2. Embiid, 3-5. KAT, Gobert, Jokić, 6. Horford,...) I just don't see him being better than Davis and Embiid. In the best case scenario I see him in the KAT, Gobert, Jokić tier( again this is just my opinion/ranking of the C position and where I see Ayton)

I have also watched some Bamba interviews and I was shocked. He seems like a very smart guy who has his head in the right place. I would appreciate if someone could share some recent Ayton interviews

[Revived]

He's a very special player. Hopefully Sarver saw that too (who am I kidding?)

It's a shame that for the Suns, Robert Sarver went to the Euroleague semi finals game instead of McDonough. But I do completely understand McD needing to be at the Combine instead to scout other guys especially for picks #16 and 31. It's just that I think Sarver is the type that expects stats like 30 pts, 10 assists, 7 rebounds in order it to be considered impressive without realizing that it is extremely difficult to get good stats in Euroleague due to the way they play. I doubt he must have been impressed with the stats below without taking it in context of how challenging it is to get these numbers due to the style of play in Euroleague and I doubt he appreciates the impact Doncic had on the game which don't show up in the statistics.

Being at a college game vs that type of game should be pretty evident about how much tougher the competition and environment is. And how much younger he is than everyone else out there.

The Madrid-Panathinaikos matchup had shades of last month’s Heat-76ers first-round series, where the less talented team tried to rattle younger stars with physicality. The difference is that European refs tend to let a lot more go than they do in the NBA. Despite the stereotypes, the European game is really rough-and-tumble, which allows players like Thanasis to grab and hold more talented guards like Doncic. He was more than happy to mix it up in return, cracking Thanasis with an elbow in the opening moments of Game 2. “The EuroLeague playoffs defensively are tougher than what Luka will ever face in the NBA,” one European scout told me. “There’s a lot of contact and physical matchups.”

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2018/5/18/17367118/luka-doncic-euroleague-final-four

One of the things I love about Doncic that I have fear about with Ayton is the toughness...particularly the mental toughness. All season long I just wished Ayton would show some toughness. His screens look like Bender's.

I’ve watched Ayton play a lot and that scares me too. People assume he’s this big tough physical guy because he looks like a monster but his game can actually use more physicality. He shys away from contact quite a bit.

And I don’t know if he has the mental toughness to play C either. He’s reportedly said it that he sees himself as a PF and wants to play PF. This would be a huge problem imo considering we would end up drafting 3 PFs in the top 10 in a 3 year span.

[jcsunsfan]

I hadn't seen this. I think I just fell in love.

Watch on YouTube

I might need a third option on this survey, y'all.

I am a big fan of Bamba. I think he should be in the top 3 or 4 in this draft. I might take him before Bagley. Aside from his game, he is a remarkable, well-spoken young man. It takes a certain level of talent to ad lib that kind of thing. He has a future in broadcasting after his career, definitely.

If we had ended up with the 3 or 4 pick, I would have been thrilled to end up with Bamba. I think he is much closer than people think.

[starbosa10]

I hadn't seen this. I think I just fell in love.

Watch on YouTube

I might need a third option on this survey, y'all.

I am a big fan of Bamba. I think he should be in the top 3 or 4 in this draft. I might take him before Bagley. Aside from his game, he is a remarkable, well-spoken young man. It takes a certain level of talent to ad lib that kind of thing. He has a future in broadcasting after his career, definitely.

If we had ended up with the 3 or 4 pick, I would have been thrilled to end up with Bamba. I think he is much closer than people think.

My dream scenario would be doncic and trading back up for bamba

[Bob8]

Doncic is MVP of Euroleague!!!

[8on]

Let’s say Ayton turned out to be Amar’e. I’m sure his ceiling is much higher than that, but let’s say he became Amar’e.

Golden State can’t do ANYTHING about peak Amar’e. Iggy, Durant, Dray....I don’t think any of them could do anything about ‘08 Amar’e.

Look at Harden. Golden State can stop Harden. If that’s the best case scenario for Luka, give me Ayton.

[Villalobos]

Let’s say Ayton turned out to be Amar’e. I’m sure his ceiling is much higher than that, but let’s say he became Amar’e.

Golden State can’t do ANYTHING about peak Amar’e. Iggy, Durant, Dray....I don’t think any of them could do anything about ‘08 Amar’e.

Just eat him alive on defense and score 140 points.

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

I hadn't seen this. I think I just fell in love.

Watch on YouTube

I might need a third option on this survey, y'all.

I am a big fan of Bamba. I think he should be in the top 3 or 4 in this draft. I might take him before Bagley. Aside from his game, he is a remarkable, well-spoken young man. It takes a certain level of talent to ad lib that kind of thing. He has a future in broadcasting after his career, definitely.

If we had ended up with the 3 or 4 pick, I would have been thrilled to end up with Bamba. I think he is much closer than people think.

My dream scenario would be doncic and trading back up for bamba

This draft is crazy good. Ayton, Doncic, Bamba, Jackson, Bagley and Young are all exceptional prospects. Being #1 gives us total control.

Notwithstanding any potential moves we might make at the top (which I still view as highly unlikely), I think McD's positioning himself to make huge waves on draft night.

[DirtyDez]

Let’s say Ayton turned out to be Amar’e. I’m sure his ceiling is much higher than that, but let’s say he became Amar’e.

Golden State can’t do ANYTHING about peak Amar’e. Iggy, Durant, Dray....I don’t think any of them could do anything about ‘08 Amar’e.

Look at Harden. Golden State can stop Harden. If that’s the best case scenario for Luka, give me Ayton.

Amare’s ceiling on offense (pre-injury) was immeasurable. Amare vs Ayton defensively is hard to say b/c he still had potential before the microfracture. Post-injury Amare stopped caring about defense completely and wasn’t coachable IMO.

[Bob8]

What the Euroleague site has written along with the MVP announcement:

The youngest player ever to march his team to a Final Four is now the youngest to become the Turkish Airlines EuroLeague MVP, as well. Luka Doncic, who turned 19 on the last day of February, was voted by the fans and media as the 2017-18 season's best player after leading Real Madridz through a minefield of injuries all the way to Sunday's championship game against Fenerbahce Dogus Istanbul. The third-year pro from Slovenia was the competition's leader in performance index rating from late October onwards and takes a league-high average PIR of 21.69 into Sunday's title game. While last season's MVP, his teammate Sergio Llull, sat out eight months with a knee injury, Doncic took the reins and led Madrid to a 4-0 start and a share of first place as he was named the EuroLeague's youngest-ever MVP of the Month in October. Doncic delivered the goods on a regular basis and enters Sunday's championship game ranked fourth with 16.1 points on average, thanks to having scored in double figures in 27 of his 32 appearances.

Much more than just a scorer, Doncic ranked second among all EuroLeague players in fouls drawn (5.8), ninth in defensive rebounds (4.1), 11th in steals (1.1) and 13th in assists (4.3) while leading Madrid in minutes played (25:51). Earlier this month, EuroLeague head coaches made him the Rising Star Trophy winner for a second straight year, while fans and media voted him to the All-EuroLeague First Team, the first teenager so honored. After a season in which he inspired superlatives from start to finish, the so-called Boy Wonder has now added the biggest individual award, that of EuroLeague MVP, even as he keeps battling to get biggest team prize of them all for the first time – the EuroLeague champions trophy.

Doncic becomes the 13th different player to become MVP since the current end-of-season awards format was introduced in 2005. He is the first EuroLeague MVP from Slovenia, which he left to join Real Madrid as a 13-year-old. He dominated the junior ranks with Madrid until he became champion and MVP of the Euroleague Basketball Adidas Next Generation Tournament in 2015, the same year that the club won the EuroLeague title. He joined Madrid's senior team later that year. Now in his third pro season, Doncic follows Llull to give Madrid the first back-to-back MVPs from the same team since Theodoros Papaloukas and Ramunas Siskauskas of CSKA Moscow in 2007 and 2008, respectively. Anthony Parker of Maccabi Tel Aviv won the award in its first two seasons, 2005 and 2006.

Doncic entered this season having just helped Slovenia win its first EuroBasket gold medal and knowing that his role would grow in the absence of Llull. He promptly led Madrid in PIR for each of four games in October and won back-to-back MVP of the Round honors 48 hours apart to end the month. He would go on to claim the distinction for a third time in Round 15, while Madrid was in the middle of a seven-game winning streak, the longest of any team this season. He then added the Round 29 MVP honor on a buzzer-beater in Belgrade, where he will make his first title attempt on Sunday. In a 3-1 playoffs series win over Panathinaikos Superfoods Athens, Doncic led Madrid with an average PIR of 16 per game. He was also the team's second-best scorer with 10.2 points per game and co-leader in rebounds with 5 on average in the playoffs. Doncic was then joint-best scorer with 16 points and tied two teammates with an 18 PIR as Madrid rallied to defeat CSKA Moscow 83-92 in the semifinals in Belgrade, taking him to his first EuroLeague championship game on Sunday.

Before that game is played, Doncic has already generated a load of eye-popping milestones. He is the first player younger than 25 to lead the EuroLeague in average PIR. His per-minute PIR – 33.5 prorated over 40 minutes – is the sixth best by a player in any EuroLeague season. And he became just the fourth EuroLeague player ever to post PIRs of 35 or higher in at least five games. To top it all off, in Friday's semifinal, Doncic established a new EuroLeague record by bringing his season-long performance index rating total to 694. He still has one game left to keep adding accolades to his collection, but at the end of the 2017-18 season, the consensus is clear: regardless of his age, Luka Doncic is the single best player in European club basketball, and the first teenage MVP in the Turkish Airlines EuroLeague.