Season speculation, free agency, and trade ideas: #ValleyBoyz rise up

[bigfoot]

I'm not completely opposed to bringing Bender back but I doubt it happens. If he gets a similar contract someplace else I bet he moves on.

Plus if the suns want to get better they need to add pieces and that limits money and opportunity, they will need to move on from some guys.

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To get better there will need to be some roster turnover more than Crawford out and a rookie in. So Bender Warren, Jackson, maybe Melton or Okobo- two of those players probably are not back

Nine players under contract: Booker, Ayton, Bridges, Warren, Jackson, Oubre (RFA), Johnson, Melton, Okobo

Bring back two: Holmes, Bender

Out: Crawford, Daniels, King, Evans, Spalding

That leaves four roster spots including one for the rookie. Question is how much do we really really have to spend. If all the signings were done in the proper order I think we have about $5-6M to hit the cap for vet #1, then the $8M mid-level player exception for vet #2, then the bi-annual exception, then Oubre and Holmes signings. Bender would fit nicely in the bi-annual exception?

[WeekapaugGroove]

I'm not completely opposed to bringing Bender back but I doubt it happens. If he gets a similar contract someplace else I bet he moves on.

Plus if the suns want to get better they need to add pieces and that limits money and opportunity, they will need to move on from some guys.

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To get better there will need to be some roster turnover more than Crawford out and a rookie in. So Bender Warren, Jackson, maybe Melton or Okobo- two of those players probably are not back

Nine players under contract: Booker, Ayton, Bridges, Warren, Jackson, Oubre (RFA), Johnson, Melton, Okobo

Bring back two: Holmes, Bender

Out: Crawford, Daniels, King, Evans, Spalding

That leaves four roster spots including one for the rookie. Question is how much do we really really have to spend. If all the signings were done in the proper order I think we have about $5-6M to hit the cap for vet #1, then the $8M mid-level player exception for vet #2, then the bi-annual exception, then Oubre and Holmes signings. Bender would fit nicely in the bi-annual exception?

Yeah could be a path. I think the most realistic scenario is if Holmes leaves for more money elsewhere then I could see them bring Bender back because he can play some 5 and also bring in some other vet on a near minimum deal for depth.

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[Frank Lee]

will there be a timing issue with signing Bender or Holmes? The cap game has to be player correctly in filling the roster with the targeted players. Even with Oubre, when he gets an offer, we have what .... 72 hrs to respond? I think the CBA changed some of those rules, but not up to speed on it.

Thus, I kind of expect some immediate activity when the bell rings.

[bigfoot]

will there be a timing issue with signing Bender or Holmes? The cap game has to be player correctly in filling the roster with the targeted players. Even with Oubre, when he gets an offer, we have what .... 72 hrs to respond? I think the CBA changed some of those rules, but not up to speed on it.

Thus, I kind of expect some immediate activity when the bell rings.

I think the Suns get to select the order the contracts are submitted to the league with the exception of a team making an offer to Oubre. But if the Suns work a deal with Oubre before any other team offers him a contract then we should be golden. Again the only hitch would be if another team steps into the picture early in the FA process. Seems unlikely since Oubre said he wants to be in Phoenix.

[cberry78]

To get better there will need to be some roster turnover more than Crawford out and a rookie in. So Bender Warren, Jackson, maybe Melton or Okobo- two of those players probably are not back

Nine players under contract: Booker, Ayton, Bridges, Warren, Jackson, Oubre (RFA), Johnson, Melton, Okobo

Bring back two: Holmes, Bender

Out: Crawford, Daniels, King, Evans, Spalding

That leaves four roster spots including one for the rookie. Question is how much do we really really have to spend. If all the signings were done in the proper order I think we have about $5-6M to hit the cap for vet #1, then the $8M mid-level player exception for vet #2, then the bi-annual exception, then Oubre and Holmes signings. Bender would fit nicely in the bi-annual exception?

Yeah could be a path. I think the most realistic scenario is if Holmes leaves for more money elsewhere then I could see them bring Bender back because he can play some 5 and also bring in some other vet on a near minimum deal for depth.

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Spalding is under contract next year for only $1.4m, so the Suns probably bring him back too. He'll be much cheaper than either of Holmes or Bender and may have the size (6'10", 215 lbs) to play spot C minutes.

[bwgood77]

I don't expect Bender back and I expect a number of teams would have some interest in him since he'd likely be cheap, is skilled, is a team player, and has shown in the past he can hit the 3 on good volume. There is a chance we bring him back under the room exception though.

If we let Igor go and he goes back to Utah I could see them signing him...or SA or someone like that.

[TeamTragic]

I don't expect Bender back and I expect a number of teams would have some interest in him since he'd likely be cheap, is skilled, is a team player, and has shown in the past he can hit the 3 on good volume. There is a chance we bring him back under the room exception though.

If we let Igor go and he goes back to Utah I could see them signing him...or SA or someone like that.

Why shouldn't we keep Bender if we can get him for a good price?

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

I don't expect Bender back and I expect a number of teams would have some interest in him since he'd likely be cheap, is skilled, is a team player, and has shown in the past he can hit the 3 on good volume. There is a chance we bring him back under the room exception though.

If we let Igor go and he goes back to Utah I could see them signing him...or SA or someone like that.

Why shouldn't we keep Bender if we can get him for a good price?

Bender's my #1 PF target in free agency ATM. He's improving all the time. I don't see why we would let him go. I also don't see what other team would be willing to offer him the starting gig.

Also, JJ's 3FG% is now only a percentage point behind Booker for the year. Kid's figuring it out. All this talk about being patient with our youngsters before they play, then all the boo-birds come out if they don't break out their first couple seasons. When you draft youth, you have to be patient. We're starting to see dividends. It would be the worst time to bail on either of these guys.

[bwgood77]

I don't expect Bender back and I expect a number of teams would have some interest in him since he'd likely be cheap, is skilled, is a team player, and has shown in the past he can hit the 3 on good volume. There is a chance we bring him back under the room exception though.

If we let Igor go and he goes back to Utah I could see them signing him...or SA or someone like that.

Why shouldn't we keep Bender if we can get him for a good price?

I would personally keep him but we didn't pick up his option so he's an unrestricted free agent. We will only have $5-$10 million in cap space so I imagine we will try to use it elsewhere.

If we had wanted to retain his rights and keep him we would have picked up his option. Now other teams can pay him more than we can. I don't think anyone will pay him much and maybe we can pay the same, and in that case, I think there is a decent chance he stays if we do want him due to his familiarity, and if he gets along with the guys and likes being here, and it seems like he does, even if he doesn't play much.

It's all going to depend on whether we make a trade to address anything and how we use what cap space we have though.

[bwgood77]

I don't expect Bender back and I expect a number of teams would have some interest in him since he'd likely be cheap, is skilled, is a team player, and has shown in the past he can hit the 3 on good volume. There is a chance we bring him back under the room exception though.

If we let Igor go and he goes back to Utah I could see them signing him...or SA or someone like that.

Why shouldn't we keep Bender if we can get him for a good price?

Bender's my #1 PF target in free agency ATM. He's improving all the time. I don't see why we would let him go. I also don't see what other team would be willing to offer him the starting gig.

Also, JJ's 3FG% is now only a percentage point behind Booker for the year. Kid's figuring it out. All this talk about being patient with our youngsters before they play, then all the boo-birds come out if they don't break out their first couple seasons. When you draft youth, you have to be patient. We're starting to see dividends. It would be the worst time to bail on either of these guys.

That might be more an indictment on Booker from 3 this year though. For me it would depend on JJ's trade value and if we could put his cap space to use elsewhere. He had a nice few months at the end of last season too and didn't take the offseason seriously. I'd hate to be in the "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me" scenario with him going into next year. We can't afford that. He's still overall been one of the worst high usage players in the NBA. Not sure what he really adds that we don't get better from others. He seems to be a poor man's Oubre that tries to pass a little more, but still turns it over as much as he assists. And if you are paying Oubre $15 or whatever, why do you want a poor man's Oubre?

[Crives]

Why shouldn't we keep Bender if we can get him for a good price?

Bender's my #1 PF target in free agency ATM. He's improving all the time. I don't see why we would let him go. I also don't see what other team would be willing to offer him the starting gig.

Also, JJ's 3FG% is now only a percentage point behind Booker for the year. Kid's figuring it out. All this talk about being patient with our youngsters before they play, then all the boo-birds come out if they don't break out their first couple seasons. When you draft youth, you have to be patient. We're starting to see dividends. It would be the worst time to bail on either of these guys.

That might be more an indictment on Booker from 3 this year though. For me it would depend on JJ's trade value and if we could put his cap space to use elsewhere. He had a nice few months at the end of last season too and didn't take the offseason seriously. I'd hate to be in the "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me" scenario with him going into next year. We can't afford that. He's still overall been one of the worst high usage players in the NBA. Not sure what he really adds that we don't get better from others. He seems to be a poor man's Oubre that tries to pass a little more, but still turns it over as much as he assists. And if you are paying Oubre $15 or whatever, why do you want a poor man's Oubre?

Josh’s 3p% is at 45.2% over the last 10 games. If we lower our expectations and this shooting streak continues, he might make a nice athletic 3/d bench player if the coaches can get him to stop forcing contested shots at the rim. Especially if he can be resigned cheap.

[lilfishi22]

Wonder what Bender is going to get paid this summer. I imagine some team is going to take a chance on him since he is only 21.

Getting the feeling that we were basically the maturing and experience that he needed before he was ready to truly hit the NBA circuit. He was drafted into the league way too young when he clearly wasn't ready for the big stage (played grand total of 74min in the Euroleague) and needed time for his body and mind to mature. Now seems like a suitable time for a team to bring him over to the NBA

[SunsLyf3]

I don't expect Bender back and I expect a number of teams would have some interest in him since he'd likely be cheap, is skilled, is a team player, and has shown in the past he can hit the 3 on good volume. There is a chance we bring him back under the room exception though.

If we let Igor go and he goes back to Utah I could see them signing him...or SA or someone like that.

Why shouldn't we keep Bender if we can get him for a good price?

Bender's my #1 PF target in free agency ATM. He's improving all the time. I don't see why we would let him go. I also don't see what other team would be willing to offer him the starting gig.

Also, JJ's 3FG% is now only a percentage point behind Booker for the year. Kid's figuring it out. All this talk about being patient with our youngsters before they play, then all the boo-birds come out if they don't break out their first couple seasons. When you draft youth, you have to be patient. We're starting to see dividends. It would be the worst time to bail on either of these guys.

Exactly.

[SunsLyf3]

Why shouldn't we keep Bender if we can get him for a good price?

Bender's my #1 PF target in free agency ATM. He's improving all the time. I don't see why we would let him go. I also don't see what other team would be willing to offer him the starting gig.

Also, JJ's 3FG% is now only a percentage point behind Booker for the year. Kid's figuring it out. All this talk about being patient with our youngsters before they play, then all the boo-birds come out if they don't break out their first couple seasons. When you draft youth, you have to be patient. We're starting to see dividends. It would be the worst time to bail on either of these guys.

That might be more an indictment on Booker from 3 this year though. For me it would depend on JJ's trade value and if we could put his cap space to use elsewhere. He had a nice few months at the end of last season too and didn't take the offseason seriously. I'd hate to be in the "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me" scenario with him going into next year. We can't afford that. He's still overall been one of the worst high usage players in the NBA. Not sure what he really adds that we don't get better from others. He seems to be a poor man's Oubre that tries to pass a little more, but still turns it over as much as he assists. And if you are paying Oubre $15 or whatever, why do you want a poor man's Oubre?

IMO It's not really a fool me once/fool me twice situation until they start talking contract extension tho. There is this perception that we must trade him but we still have all the control when it comes to him. And you want to keep JJ cause throwing that type of length Melton(if kept)-JJ-Bridges off the bench causes trouble for the potent NBA offenses. We've been seeing it consistently for the past 2 weeks. TJ Warren is the one that needs to be traded cause Oubre replaces his scoring, also I remember TJ was horrible down the stretch of games when it came to FTs. He's still an 18-20ppg on a helluva bargain deal so he immediately becomes you're best trade chip.

[BobbieL]

To get better there will need to be some roster turnover more than Crawford out and a rookie in. So Bender Warren, Jackson, maybe Melton or Okobo- two of those players probably are not back

Nine players under contract: Booker, Ayton, Bridges, Warren, Jackson, Oubre (RFA), Johnson, Melton, Okobo

Bring back two: Holmes, Bender

Out: Crawford, Daniels, King, Evans, Spalding

That leaves four roster spots including one for the rookie. Question is how much do we really really have to spend. If all the signings were done in the proper order I think we have about $5-6M to hit the cap for vet #1, then the $8M mid-level player exception for vet #2, then the bi-annual exception, then Oubre and Holmes signings. Bender would fit nicely in the bi-annual exception?

Yeah could be a path. I think the most realistic scenario is if Holmes leaves for more money elsewhere then I could see them bring Bender back because he can play some 5 and also bring in some other vet on a near minimum deal for depth.

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I just would not feel comfortable bringing back everybody and only having 6m of cap and another FRP on this roster. If Bender is cheap - fine. But between Jackson, WArren and the 2019 FRP -- or maybe its the Bucks pick - they need to get a true4. And they might want a PG too

[lilfishi22]

Bender's my #1 PF target in free agency ATM. He's improving all the time. I don't see why we would let him go. I also don't see what other team would be willing to offer him the starting gig.

Also, JJ's 3FG% is now only a percentage point behind Booker for the year. Kid's figuring it out. All this talk about being patient with our youngsters before they play, then all the boo-birds come out if they don't break out their first couple seasons. When you draft youth, you have to be patient. We're starting to see dividends. It would be the worst time to bail on either of these guys.

That might be more an indictment on Booker from 3 this year though. For me it would depend on JJ's trade value and if we could put his cap space to use elsewhere. He had a nice few months at the end of last season too and didn't take the offseason seriously. I'd hate to be in the "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me" scenario with him going into next year. We can't afford that. He's still overall been one of the worst high usage players in the NBA. Not sure what he really adds that we don't get better from others. He seems to be a poor man's Oubre that tries to pass a little more, but still turns it over as much as he assists. And if you are paying Oubre $15 or whatever, why do you want a poor man's Oubre?

IMO It's not really a fool me once/fool me twice situation until they start talking contract extension tho. There is this perception that we must trade him but we still have all the control when it comes to him. And you want to keep JJ cause throwing that type of length Melton(if kept)-JJ-Bridges off the bench causes trouble for the potent NBA offenses. We've been seeing it consistently for the past 2 weeks. TJ Warren is the one that needs to be traded cause Oubre replaces his scoring, also I remember TJ was horrible down the stretch of games when it came to FTs. He's still an 18-20ppg on a helluva bargain deal so he immediately becomes you're best trade chip.

The problem is he's (JJ) mostly been a negative on the floor save for a few good games and highlights. When his almost 2 seasons in the NBA has him ranked among some of the worst players in the league and he's not particularly young coming into the NBA, it begs to differ whether those flashes will ever turn into substance and consistent substance.

You have a point about TJ with his points being mostly replaced (albeit not as efficiently) and you could make a case that's he's more expendable but with JJ, I'm just not sure he has the same argument. His defense isn't as good the rookie's (Bridges), his scoring is straight up bad, his USG% is only a smidgen less than Oubre's, his 3PT shooting has only seen a slight uptick this past month (while his 2PT% has tanked) and while his passing is nice sometimes it isn't something that has been a consistent asset. Also, I just found out that while JJ is 3rd on the team in total assists, Bridges is actually 4th with only 15 less and although Bridges has played more total minutes he also has half the USG% as JJ. So even the playmaking isn't completely in his favor among our wings either. If you were to ask me who I would put at the top of the trade list among our wings now, it would probably be JJ. For the record, JJ wasn't my guy in the 2017 draft but I was fine with him and I did like what he brought to the table and I really wish he was the great defensive playmaking wing that he was drafted as but it's entirely possible that he isn't and never will be.

Right now we have three bird-in-hands in TJ and arguably Oubre and Bridges with JJ the only one that truly hasn't proven himself to be an NBA asset. If I was on a team with so much uncertainty, I wouldn't move the closest thing to a sure thing in TJ in favor of a guy who's the furthest thing away from it. That's my logic behind prioritising moving JJ over any of our other wings.

[SunsLyf3]

That might be more an indictment on Booker from 3 this year though. For me it would depend on JJ's trade value and if we could put his cap space to use elsewhere. He had a nice few months at the end of last season too and didn't take the offseason seriously. I'd hate to be in the "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me" scenario with him going into next year. We can't afford that. He's still overall been one of the worst high usage players in the NBA. Not sure what he really adds that we don't get better from others. He seems to be a poor man's Oubre that tries to pass a little more, but still turns it over as much as he assists. And if you are paying Oubre $15 or whatever, why do you want a poor man's Oubre?

IMO It's not really a fool me once/fool me twice situation until they start talking contract extension tho. There is this perception that we must trade him but we still have all the control when it comes to him. And you want to keep JJ cause throwing that type of length Melton(if kept)-JJ-Bridges off the bench causes trouble for the potent NBA offenses. We've been seeing it consistently for the past 2 weeks. TJ Warren is the one that needs to be traded cause Oubre replaces his scoring, also I remember TJ was horrible down the stretch of games when it came to FTs. He's still an 18-20ppg on a helluva bargain deal so he immediately becomes you're best trade chip.

The problem is he's (JJ) mostly been a negative on the floor save for a few good games and highlights. When his almost 2 seasons in the NBA has him ranked among some of the worst players in the league and he's not particularly young coming into the NBA, it begs to differ whether those flashes will ever turn into substance and consistent substance.

You have a point about TJ with his points being mostly replaced (albeit not as efficiently) and you could make a case that's he's more expendable but with JJ, I'm just not sure he has the same argument. His defense isn't as good the rookie's (Bridges), his scoring is straight up bad, his USG% is only a smidgen less than Oubre's, his 3PT shooting has only seen a slight uptick this past month (while his 2PT% has tanked) and while his passing is nice sometimes it isn't something that has been a consistent asset. Also, I just found out that while JJ is 3rd on the team in total assists, Bridges is actually 4th with only 15 less and although Bridges has played more total minutes he also has half the USG% as JJ. So even the playmaking isn't completely in his favor among our wings either. If you were to ask me who I would put at the top of the trade list among our wings now, it would probably be JJ. For the record, JJ wasn't my guy in the 2017 draft but I was fine with him and I did like what he brought to the table and I really wish he was the great defensive playmaking wing that he was drafted as but it's entirely possible that he isn't and never will be.

Right now we have three bird-in-hands in TJ and arguably Oubre and Bridges with JJ the only one that truly hasn't proven himself to be an NBA asset. If I was on a team with so much uncertainty, I wouldn't move the closest thing to a sure thing in TJ in favor of a guy who's the furthest thing away from it. That's my logic behind prioritising moving JJ over any of our other wings.

A lot of it has to do with the lack of stability with our coaching staff and all the different things he was asked to do. Heck they even try to play him as point forward. His 1st year really brings the rest of his stats down. Also not having a legit PG hurts player development too. I don't think it's a coincidence that JJs 3pt shot drastically improved since acquiring Tyler Johnson. Make him do less. Same issues we've been having with Dragan Bender. He got drafted as a teen who barely got PT. Body underdeveloped and yet they've asked him to play 3-4-5. This year he finally worked on his body and things have also been simplified for him. A lot of these things can be attributed to bad coaching and poor personel. Plus like I said JJ is on a rookie deal and we can still raise his value with a great summer league and improvement next year.

EDIT: You don't move TJ in Favor of JJ. You move him cause he is your best asset and the current wings have made him replaceable. TJ will probably want to be starting as well. We need to upgrade PG and PF to be a perennial playoff contender and you can probably get a much much better return with TJ than you would with JJ.

[lilfishi22]

IMO It's not really a fool me once/fool me twice situation until they start talking contract extension tho. There is this perception that we must trade him but we still have all the control when it comes to him. And you want to keep JJ cause throwing that type of length Melton(if kept)-JJ-Bridges off the bench causes trouble for the potent NBA offenses. We've been seeing it consistently for the past 2 weeks. TJ Warren is the one that needs to be traded cause Oubre replaces his scoring, also I remember TJ was horrible down the stretch of games when it came to FTs. He's still an 18-20ppg on a helluva bargain deal so he immediately becomes you're best trade chip.

The problem is he's (JJ) mostly been a negative on the floor save for a few good games and highlights. When his almost 2 seasons in the NBA has him ranked among some of the worst players in the league and he's not particularly young coming into the NBA, it begs to differ whether those flashes will ever turn into substance and consistent substance.

You have a point about TJ with his points being mostly replaced (albeit not as efficiently) and you could make a case that's he's more expendable but with JJ, I'm just not sure he has the same argument. His defense isn't as good the rookie's (Bridges), his scoring is straight up bad, his USG% is only a smidgen less than Oubre's, his 3PT shooting has only seen a slight uptick this past month (while his 2PT% has tanked) and while his passing is nice sometimes it isn't something that has been a consistent asset. Also, I just found out that while JJ is 3rd on the team in total assists, Bridges is actually 4th with only 15 less and although Bridges has played more total minutes he also has half the USG% as JJ. So even the playmaking isn't completely in his favor among our wings either. If you were to ask me who I would put at the top of the trade list among our wings now, it would probably be JJ. For the record, JJ wasn't my guy in the 2017 draft but I was fine with him and I did like what he brought to the table and I really wish he was the great defensive playmaking wing that he was drafted as but it's entirely possible that he isn't and never will be.

Right now we have three bird-in-hands in TJ and arguably Oubre and Bridges with JJ the only one that truly hasn't proven himself to be an NBA asset. If I was on a team with so much uncertainty, I wouldn't move the closest thing to a sure thing in TJ in favor of a guy who's the furthest thing away from it. That's my logic behind prioritising moving JJ over any of our other wings.

A lot of it has to do with the lack of stability with our coaching staff and all the different things he was asked to do. Heck they even try to play him as point forward. His 1st year really brings the rest of his stats down. Also not having a legit PG hurts player development too. I don't think it's a coincidence that JJs 3pt shot drastically improved since acquiring Tyler Johnson. Make him do less. Same issues we've been having with Dragan Bender. He got drafted as a teen who barely got PT. Body underdeveloped and yet they've asked him to play 3-4-5. This year he finally worked on his body and things have also been simplified for him. A lot of these things can be attributed to bad coaching and poor personel. Plus like I said JJ is on a rookie deal and we can still raise his value with a great summer league and improvement next year.

EDIT: You don't move TJ in Favor of JJ. You move him cause he is your best asset and the current wings have made him replaceable. TJ will probably want to be starting as well. We need to upgrade PG and PF to be a perennial playoff contender and you can probably get a much much better return with TJ than you would with JJ.

It was never going to be a stable situation with the Suns. But the cream rises to the top. Bridges have done that, Oubre has done that, Warren has done that, Booker has done that, hell even Ayton has found a way to contribute on the defensive end. This is a results driven league and potential only keeps you in the league for so long. I've said this many times before, you're either an NBA player or you're not. So far he's shown to be a poor NBA player, the eye tests back it up, the raw stats backs it up and the advanced stats backs it up. Sometimes a player has the entire rookie contract to prove themselves and other times they don't, it's just how to league works. All the player can do is try and put their best foot forward but if it hasn't been enough when the team has to make priorities then what else can we do?

His 3pt shot has improved since we got Johnson but his 2PT% has absolutely tanked. Dragan Bender was a guy that never should've been drafted that early. He neither had the experience nor the physical maturity required to play in the NBA. Jackson was different, he played over 1000min in his college season.

I'm all for moving TJ in a trade to address a position of need if that's what it can get us. Not against that at all. But if we're talking about which wing is more expendable, it's clearly the guy who hasn't brought a ton to the table.

[bwgood77]

Bender's my #1 PF target in free agency ATM. He's improving all the time. I don't see why we would let him go. I also don't see what other team would be willing to offer him the starting gig.

Also, JJ's 3FG% is now only a percentage point behind Booker for the year. Kid's figuring it out. All this talk about being patient with our youngsters before they play, then all the boo-birds come out if they don't break out their first couple seasons. When you draft youth, you have to be patient. We're starting to see dividends. It would be the worst time to bail on either of these guys.

That might be more an indictment on Booker from 3 this year though. For me it would depend on JJ's trade value and if we could put his cap space to use elsewhere. He had a nice few months at the end of last season too and didn't take the offseason seriously. I'd hate to be in the "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me" scenario with him going into next year. We can't afford that. He's still overall been one of the worst high usage players in the NBA. Not sure what he really adds that we don't get better from others. He seems to be a poor man's Oubre that tries to pass a little more, but still turns it over as much as he assists. And if you are paying Oubre $15 or whatever, why do you want a poor man's Oubre?

IMO It's not really a fool me once/fool me twice situation until they start talking contract extension tho. There is this perception that we must trade him but we still have all the control when it comes to him. And you want to keep JJ cause throwing that type of length Melton(if kept)-JJ-Bridges off the bench causes trouble for the potent NBA offenses. We've been seeing it consistently for the past 2 weeks. TJ Warren is the one that needs to be traded cause Oubre replaces his scoring, also I remember TJ was horrible down the stretch of games when it came to FTs. He's still an 18-20ppg on a helluva bargain deal so he immediately becomes you're best trade chip.

Well TJ is the far better player so he would have a lot more trade value but also I think we want people ready to compete now. With our terrible efficiency, it's nice to have a guy with great efficiency who isn't a big in TJ..and a reliable go to scorer. Oubre isn't quite as consistent, but it's not like you can't have both.

Of course if we can find a trade including TJ that benefits us greatly that we can't find with JJ than you make a deal if it makes you better. But all things being equal, if you could use the cap space or either player in same trade, you trade JJ all day every day. His TS% was tied for Wiggins for worst players in NBA with over 500 minutes.

The 3 pt % is nice in March but then again his % inside 5 feet of rim was at like 23%. And if you're arguing for JJ, I wouldn't start bringing up free throws as arguments against the other guy. JJ just cost us the Houston game missing both at the line.

[SunsLyf3]

The problem is he's (JJ) mostly been a negative on the floor save for a few good games and highlights. When his almost 2 seasons in the NBA has him ranked among some of the worst players in the league and he's not particularly young coming into the NBA, it begs to differ whether those flashes will ever turn into substance and consistent substance.

You have a point about TJ with his points being mostly replaced (albeit not as efficiently) and you could make a case that's he's more expendable but with JJ, I'm just not sure he has the same argument. His defense isn't as good the rookie's (Bridges), his scoring is straight up bad, his USG% is only a smidgen less than Oubre's, his 3PT shooting has only seen a slight uptick this past month (while his 2PT% has tanked) and while his passing is nice sometimes it isn't something that has been a consistent asset. Also, I just found out that while JJ is 3rd on the team in total assists, Bridges is actually 4th with only 15 less and although Bridges has played more total minutes he also has half the USG% as JJ. So even the playmaking isn't completely in his favor among our wings either. If you were to ask me who I would put at the top of the trade list among our wings now, it would probably be JJ. For the record, JJ wasn't my guy in the 2017 draft but I was fine with him and I did like what he brought to the table and I really wish he was the great defensive playmaking wing that he was drafted as but it's entirely possible that he isn't and never will be.

Right now we have three bird-in-hands in TJ and arguably Oubre and Bridges with JJ the only one that truly hasn't proven himself to be an NBA asset. If I was on a team with so much uncertainty, I wouldn't move the closest thing to a sure thing in TJ in favor of a guy who's the furthest thing away from it. That's my logic behind prioritising moving JJ over any of our other wings.

A lot of it has to do with the lack of stability with our coaching staff and all the different things he was asked to do. Heck they even try to play him as point forward. His 1st year really brings the rest of his stats down. Also not having a legit PG hurts player development too. I don't think it's a coincidence that JJs 3pt shot drastically improved since acquiring Tyler Johnson. Make him do less. Same issues we've been having with Dragan Bender. He got drafted as a teen who barely got PT. Body underdeveloped and yet they've asked him to play 3-4-5. This year he finally worked on his body and things have also been simplified for him. A lot of these things can be attributed to bad coaching and poor personel. Plus like I said JJ is on a rookie deal and we can still raise his value with a great summer league and improvement next year.

EDIT: You don't move TJ in Favor of JJ. You move him cause he is your best asset and the current wings have made him replaceable. TJ will probably want to be starting as well. We need to upgrade PG and PF to be a perennial playoff contender and you can probably get a much much better return with TJ than you would with JJ.

It was never going to be a stable situation with the Suns. But the cream rises to the top. Bridges have done that, Oubre has done that, Warren has done that, Booker has done that, hell even Ayton has found a way to contribute on the defensive end. This is a results driven league and potential only keeps you in the league for so long. I've said this many times before, you're either an NBA player or you're not. So far he's shown to be a poor NBA player, the eye tests back it up, the raw stats backs it up and the advanced stats backs it up. Sometimes a player has the entire rookie contract to prove themselves and other times they don't, it's just how to league works. All the player can do is try and put their best foot forward but if it hasn't been enough when the team has to make priorities then what else can we do?

His 3pt shot has improved since we got Johnson but his 2PT% has absolutely tanked. Dragan Bender was a guy that never should've been drafted that early. He neither had the experience nor the physical maturity required to play in the NBA. Jackson was different, he played over 1000min in his college season.

I'm all for moving TJ in a trade to address a position of need if that's what it can get us. Not against that at all. But if we're talking about which wing is more expendable, it's clearly the guy who hasn't brought a ton to the table.

Speaking of results weren't we losing a ton even with TJ Warren. So while his efficiency is welcomed he barely moves the needle as far as wins. He's an average defender at best(and thats an upgrade from his first seasons whe he was putrid and PJ bailed him out) on top of it took him 4 seasons to get a respectable 3pt shot. He was always around 20-25%. Played a combined total of 87 games his first 2 years and started only 5. After 2 seasons at NC St. Where as Jackson was thrown to the wolves immediately playing 148 games his first 2 years and starting him 60, all of this while asking him to be an immediate contributor after just 1 season at Kansas. The nature of the league is that some players come into the league ready to ball and others take time, then there are the ones that land in perfect situations to flourish(pascal siakam). You can throw advanced stats and talk about usage but I reiterate when you throw that much on a rookies plate his first 2 years it can be overwhelming, specially without a legit coach and PG. IMO it would be wrong to trade JJ just cause we have TJ when he clearly is the odd man out. Lets not forget the chemistry factor. We have players in the locker room vouching for him whereas TJ is an after thought for a reason. I would much rather maximize TJs trade value(probably at an all time high) and roll the dice on JJ. We keep cap flexibility while upgrading the roster.