Season Speculation, Trade Ideas and Discussion

[NavLDO]

I also live in portland and meyers is not a guy this team needs and or should want. Hes like a better rebounding worse shooting version of channing frye.

Plus hes a mental midget. Nice guy though.

Fair enough. I'm not really on the Meyers Leonard Bandwagon, but I don't think Len is worth him and 1st, the way Len has been playing so far. And right now, all we need is a Bench Center, and I'm not sure Len fits that role well, and he's not good enough to start, so that leaves him in no man's land. I thought for sure Len would start this season by improving upon his game from last year, but the fact is, that he isn't improving, and not good enough to start. If that changes, and these first 4 games and preseason were not a true measure of his ability, than great! Anytime Len wants to get back to shooting near 50%, rebounding double digits, and averaging a blk and a half a game, then by all means...come on back, Len, but right now, I'm hearing he looks even worse than his box score is showing, and if that is the case, then Leonard would be an improvement, I believe.

[kennydorglas]

Opposing team's announcers don't have to watch him play 82 times a year. They just look at his stat sheets from the end of last year when he was getting double-doubles and think that's who he is, when in reality the only reason he produced was because we had a decimated roster and he got a lot more opportunity to fill the stat sheet than he would have on a decent team.

Through 4 games his stat line is 20 mpg, 7.5 ppg, 5 rpg, 1 apg, 1 bpg, and 4.3 fouls on 33 FG% and 71 FT%, and the eye test definitely matches those mediocre numbers. Once his defender realizes he doesn't even have to try blocking his shot and just keeps his hands up without fouling or letting Len get close enough to dunk, he's effectively out of the game on offense because he has literally no touch around the rim and teams want us to have him shooting 15-20 foot jump shots. Same thing happened last night, he makes 2 decent up and under post moves to get 2 dunks in the post pretty early in the game, and the rest of the game their defense adjusted and let him go for contested double clutch hook shots in the lane and mid-range jump shots, of which he air balled 2 by a mile.

It's not that hard. His scouting report is easy.

[alphagorilla]

If Booker and Warren are going to be our future scorers I think we should rethink our PG situation. I think we should go after a guy like Rubio, good passer and plays D.

Bledsoe, Len, PJ for Rubio, Pekovic and 17pick top 5 protected.

[NavLDO]

I don't think we should be panicking. I don't know about you guys, but these last three games - yes, even the blowout loss to the Clippers - have been extremely entertaining. We're witnessing the growth of our young players, game by game. And we're seeing the resurgence of Bledsoe and Chandler, which is great. The defense has been remarkably improved, despite the fouls. Hold steady. None of these guys we're bandying about - basically, Noel and Okafor - are going to save us. Once again, we need to be patient. Stay the course with this squad, and wait for the right opportunity.

While I agree with you, there are some pieces that we've known, and still know, can be upgraded, so if the right opportunity does come along, we should be considering these pieces for trade--Tucker, Knight, Len.

I agree that we shouldn't make a panic move, and we shouldn't be seeking one specific player, but there are probably 20-30 guys that McD likely has his eyes on, and if the opportunity presents itself, like a different player on that squad going down, and Knight, Tucker, or Len might be able to fill in for said team, it doesn't hurt to give said team a call and attempt to pry one of these players that McD likes by offering Len, Knight, or Tucker in a pkg.

I'm definitely not panicking, and am glad our rooks are getting some burn, and if we lose a few games because of it, so be it. But if we can get a Noel, or another young Center/PF, and the price is Len and Knight or Tucker, then I say go for it.

I somewhat agree with your conclusion, but I'm not sold on Noel. His injury history is scary, and he's too light to bang with the next-generation C's that are about to be unleashed on the league (Embiid, Dayton). Defensively, he's actually pretty much what we hope and want Marquese Chriss to be. Plus, he's going to want some serious money. I just don't think he's a good target.

I would rather ride it out with Chandler as the starter for the next few seasons, while possibly keeping Len around on a bargain contract, and try to draft an anchor for our core. If we fail, but the rest of our squad continues to grow, we can look into signing the final piece in free agency. I just don't see the guy we need out there.
So if we're talking trade, I'm more keen on trying to land a high pick so we can take another shot at drafting our future starting center. I'd also be happy if we could somehow land Richaun Holmes, who, while undersized, has more beef with which to contend down low. We're talking Jah and Nerlens, but there's another big on that roster who needs to breathe free air, and I wonder if he wouldn't be a much better fit.

Yes, please...problem is, he's one of the 'bigs' that I read a report saying that the Sixers actually like, so if McD can swing it, more power to him, because I'd love get Holmes in a Suns jersey.

[Saberestar]

If Booker and Warren are going to be our future scorers I think we should rethink our PG situation. I think we should go after a guy like Rubio, good passer and plays D.

Bledsoe, Len, PJ for Rubio, Pekovic and 17pick top 5 protected.

That is too much. Pekovic earns $12M and he is out for the year and probably absolutely done.

I would try to trade for Rubio now, with his latest injury his value around the league has to be really low. But I am not sure if he can be an starting PG in a good team, so I would play him like a backup.

Knight for Rubio and call it a day. Add a second round pick if needed.

[Villalobos]

Does anyone remember the last time a team went deep into the playoffs with a starting PG that not only couldn't shoot, but can't even hit layups?

[MathiasPW]

Does anyone remember the last time a team went deep into the playoffs with a starting PG that not only couldn't shoot, but can't even hit layups?

Houston. San Antonio. Boston. Lakers....

[gaspar]

Does anyone remember the last time a team went deep into the playoffs with a starting PG that not only couldn't shoot, but can't even hit layups?

For some reason people on this board exaggerate every Suns players' flaws and completely ignore flaws of other players in the league. I know that after Steve Nash's success in Phoenix everyone here loves "pass-first" point guards, but that's not what Ricky Rubio is. He's a "pass-only" point guard. Dude can't score the basketball from anywhere on the court. He's a liability, especially in crunch time.

[Kerrsed]

Spoiler:

Does anyone remember the last time a team went deep into the playoffs with a starting PG that not only couldn't shoot, but can't even hit layups?

For some reason people on this board exaggerate every Suns players' flaws and completely ignore flaws of other players in the league. I know that after Steve Nash's success in Phoenix everyone here loves "pass-first" point guards, but that's not what Ricky Rubio is. He's a "pass-only" point guard. Dude can't score the basketball from anywhere on the court. He's a liability, especially in crunch time.

Pass 1st PG's are usually pass 1st because they cant shoot. Nash was an exception to the rule.

[Saberestar]

Does anyone remember the last time a team went deep into the playoffs with a starting PG that not only couldn't shoot, but can't even hit layups?

For some reason people on this board exaggerate every Suns players' flaws and completely ignore flaws of other players in the league. I know that after Steve Nash's success in Phoenix everyone here loves "pass-first" point guards, but that's not what Ricky Rubio is. He's a "pass-only" point guard. Dude can't score the basketball from anywhere on the court. He's a liability, especially in crunch time.

Yeah I understand that he is not an MVP caliber player, but I prefer to have on my team Rubio than Knightmare. Just that.

[Villalobos]

Does anyone remember the last time a team went deep into the playoffs with a starting PG that not only couldn't shoot, but can't even hit layups?

Houston. San Antonio. Boston. Lakers....

Tony Parker was a monster in the paint and then developed a nice midrange and as he's aged he's gotten better at 3. Lakers had Fisher, who could shoot. Beverley is about average from 3 and isn't terrible at the rim. Rondo is the closest comparison and he was fine at the rim most of his career. Teams before those were before my time.

Last year was the first year in Rubio's career he shot over 50% at the rim. He's under 40% for 2pt shots for his entire career. It's crazy.

[wheezy]

The last thing we should be doing is trading picks that could be pretty good. Also, why on earth would we trade for two centers (I guess Leonard can play pf but why would we want him taking minutes from Chriss/Bender)? Blazers for sure say no too.

Yeah, Portland trades a 1st for Len when they are way deep into the luxury tax and already have Mason Plumlee?

That first is going to be late 20s anyway. Like I said above, Len doesn't have a complete game and I wouldn't be surprised if he never puts it together. Plumlee is a decent offensive big, but he gets absolutely trashed on D. He's just weak. It's why they signed Festus.

The trade would actually drop Portland under the tax threshold and save them from paying repeater tax next year when 3J's contract kicks in. Papa Paul might have quite the piggy bank, but he'd save some serious money in tax bills next year by shedding salary this year.

You're really undervaluing first round picks in the new NBA economy. Those contracts are great guaranteed low contracts for 4 years. Sure they could get under the tax but they'd still have to pay Len or lose him next summer (and technically Meyers and a first) for nothing but tax relief.

[MathiasPW]

Does anyone remember the last time a team went deep into the playoffs with a starting PG that not only couldn't shoot, but can't even hit layups?

Houston. San Antonio. Boston. Lakers....

Tony Parker was a monster in the paint and then developed a nice midrange and as he's aged he's gotten better at 3. Lakers had Fisher, who could shoot. Beverley is about average from 3 and isn't terrible at the rim. Rondo is the closest comparison and he was fine at the rim most of his career. Teams before those were before my time.

Last year was the first year in Rubio's career he shot over 50% at the rim. He's under 40% for 2pt shots for his entire career. It's crazy.

Rubio is 26, so your argument of "developed a shot as he aged" might still be true for him.

There are obvious differences between each player, as you pointed out. None of them were sharpshooters, nevertheless.

My argument is that you don't need a premier shooter at the PG spot, specifically when you have other weapons in your team. All these teams used the PG mainly to defend and/or break down defenses to create open looks.
Rubio can do just that.

[Villalobos]

I don't think he can do that though, especially in the playoffs. No one has cared about shutting down Rubio for his entire career because the Wolves have always been bad. No one's ever needed to gameplan them. In the playoffs things will be much worse for him with teams just begging him to shoot long 2s and 3s. They wouldn't even have to bother rim protecting much with him because he'll brick those layups more often than not.

And that's the other unique thing about Rubio. He's been in the league for six years and hasn't really improved.

[bwgood77]

I don't think he can do that though, especially in the playoffs. No one has cared about shutting down Rubio for his entire career because the Wolves have always been bad. No one's ever needed to gameplan them. In the playoffs things will be much worse for him with teams just begging him to shoot long 2s and 3s. They wouldn't even have to bother rim protecting much with him because he'll brick those layups more often than not.

And that's the other unique thing about Rubio. He's been in the league for six years and hasn't really improved.

I don't know that a team can go deep into the playoffs with Rubio as their PG. It probably depends on whether or not he was playing with a stacked team or not.

But I am quite certain Knight will not play a key role on a playoff team that makes a deep run. They both are shooting 33.3% this year. Rubio is a career 36.8% shooter so that is extremely bad, but Knight is a 41.5% career shooter and that is pretty terrible. In his three years in Phx, he shot 35.7% after the trade deadline his first year, 41.5% last year, and is at 33.3% this year. On top of the terrible shooting on a TON of shots (at least Rubio barely shoots), he doesn't pass much. His career ast/to ratio is barely better than 1.5-1. This year Knight is averaging 2.5 assists and 3 turnovers a night on 33.3% shooting. He will get better, but that's obviously not good.

Rubio has over a 3-1 ast/to ratio and plays great D.

Having said all that, I wouldn't necessarily want Rubio as our PG of the future, but would swap the remaining contracts of him and Knight in a heartbeat.

What I would like most about having him is that I know he would get Bender, Chriss, Booker and Warren the ball a ton and rarely take any shots for himself. Something I'd welcome about now.

[OGBAH]

Kanter is getting traded eventually. He played at KENTUCKY!(kinda) maybe Len,Tucker and cap space for His cop porn mustache

[OGBAH]

Ulis>Rubio

[lilfishi22]

True, but it wasn't nearly as bad as Mar/Apr, which were abysmal. that's all I'm saying, but then again, last night he shot 31% again, so it appears he's NOT going to be shooting much, if any, better this year. So if he keeps this up, there's no way he even sniffs 8 figures. I don't care who's getting what right now, none of those centers are shooting anywhere near as abysmally as Len is, and while he had 3 blocks 2 games ago, last night? Zilch.

So he's not really providing rim protection (please tell me if I'm wrong here), he's not rebounding all that well, we've established he's not shooting worth a darn, so what the heck IS he providing that is worth $10M (not directed at you lilfishi-in general)

I've been on Len's side all summer and through preseason, but now? It's clear he has issues that he's not going to resolve here. He needs to go somewhere else, and if I'm his agent, I'm begging McD to make a trade so he has an opportunity somewhere else to get the help he needs before his first contract is up, because he's NOT getting what he needs here. Some other coach might actually be able to get him back to where he was in seasons 1 and 2, when he at least looked somewhat decent.

Honestly, I don't think his open midrange jumpers are that bad. He's just so bad in the post, I'd RATHER he get himself open for the midrange sometimes. I think he just doesn't react well to contact. He also doesn't have a very good touch around the rim even with minimal defense.

The only thing that might still get him paid is his age. Some team (not sure who) may still want to take a chance on him.

[Kerrsed]

Pass 1st PG's are a dying breed in the new NBA, and thats because they just dont work. They've been phased out. Same way having a huge hulking 250+ pound 7 footer playing Center has. The league is now all about having your best player run the point no matter the position. Having the ball in their hands right away is all that matters. Let them decide if they can score or if they cant, since they are the best player on the squad, chances are they are drawing multiple defenders, leaving someone open for the pass. Thats why you see teams winning that employ a shoot-1st PG. Curry/Irving/Lillard/Westbrook, they all can score better than they can distribute. The only real (Starting) pass-1st PG's left in the league are Rondo and Rubio. Any other young up-and-coming pass 1st PG only has a few seasons in the league before they are thrown to the wayside.

Kendall Marshall had the size and pedigree to be a great pass 1st PG, and where is he? Same goes for Tyler Ennis. MCW was a rookie of the year, and now he is just trade filler. Teams value the ability to score and cant afford to have players on the floor that can make a bucket. They become a liability. Nash was a very rare breed in that he could have been a shooting PG, but decided to create 1st and if all else failed, drain a shot.

If i was Coach, i would have Booker running the point. He is our future and best player. His ability to score is the reason he is now constantly drawing multiple defenders on each possession. If he cant hit the shot, then there will be someone open that can, hence why you surround him with shooters (Bledsoe/Warren/Chriss/Bender) and not the guys who cant hit an open shot to save their lives (Tucker/Len).

Its like whats going on in Houston (and the better half of the league). Is Harden a PG? Nope. He is the best player on the team, so the ball is in his hands and he runs the offense, thus making him a PG, instead of having a much weaker player like PatBev doing so. Same thing as OKC and Westbrook. Same as Cleveland and Lebron. Giannis is Milwaukee.

[lilfishi22]

Len's main problem is that he rushes shots and his hard release.

When he was faking his defenders up and not rushing shots... He nailed them.

Also Suns are not known for developing big men with post moves.

He's rushing his shots because he's trying to draw the foul but defenders seem to have honed in on this. They know he can't hit the broad side of a barn from 2ft so they don't bother fouling him. Often you see him happen on an offensive board only to rush it back up while falling hoping to get the call and you'll see him look back at the refs thinking he should've gotten a call.

Teams and refs know what he's trying to do but if there's no foul and he's just rushing his shot while falling on his own, no one is going to foul him and no refs are gonna make the call.