ImageImageImage

2014 Draft Thread

Moderators: bwgood77, lilfishi22, Qwigglez

RunDogGun
No Sham, More Cam
Posts: 17,891
And1: 5,437
Joined: Jun 27, 2009
Location: Beyond the Sun

Re: Tankapalooza: 2014 Draft Thread 

Post#361 » by RunDogGun » Thu Nov 14, 2013 6:16 am

phrazbit wrote:
RunDogGun wrote:
Well if I was on the jury, actual evidence would be required to convict. As of right now, there is no evidence to support GS losing games on purpose. Until you have some, you can say all you want, but you'll have nothing to back up your OPINIONS. :D


There is evidence, multiple games of absolutely inexplicable player usage. Healthy vets getting DNPs while d-league scrubs play 40 minutes, its not "opinion" that those things happened, its a fact. But your standard of "evidence" is a confession.


And we have gone through each of those games at length, which came down to five games at the very end of the season, where many teams play their young guys when it is obvious that they have no chance at the playoffs. Nice try, but I remember my research on this. Those "scrubs" put up good numbers in the minutes they played. Actually, I would just like some actual evidence, not speculation to very competitive players "faking" injuries, just so the team would have a slight chance of getting the seventh pick.
User avatar
bwgood77
Global Mod
Global Mod
Posts: 98,306
And1: 61,068
Joined: Feb 06, 2009
Location: Austin
Contact:
   

Re: Tankapalooza: 2014 Draft Thread 

Post#362 » by bwgood77 » Thu Nov 14, 2013 6:19 am

No, I don't think at all that any players fake injuries. I think what probably happens is, the GM, worried about long term job security, thinks that getting a star in the draft will help him more than finishing with 37 wins instead of 29, and figures out a way to make it more probable to lose games.

The only way to do this without telling coaches and players this (which would be counterintuitive because THEIR job security is based on playing well now and winning games) is to figure out another way. So, for the GM, the only way to do this is to tell the doctor who to approve to play/not play, and no one can argue.

If team doctor says "David Lee, on his examination had ________, and it is probably a good idea for him to sit out to avoid long term injury that could impact his career" What are coach and player going to do? No, I don't have evidence, but something like this is likely what would happen in a tanking situation. They have no choice. At that point Lee and Jackson would likely know what is happening, but they really can't do anything about it.
User avatar
bwgood77
Global Mod
Global Mod
Posts: 98,306
And1: 61,068
Joined: Feb 06, 2009
Location: Austin
Contact:
   

Re: Tankapalooza: 2014 Draft Thread 

Post#363 » by bwgood77 » Thu Nov 14, 2013 6:21 am

RunDogGun wrote:
phrazbit wrote:
RunDogGun wrote:
Well if I was on the jury, actual evidence would be required to convict. As of right now, there is no evidence to support GS losing games on purpose. Until you have some, you can say all you want, but you'll have nothing to back up your OPINIONS. :D


There is evidence, multiple games of absolutely inexplicable player usage. Healthy vets getting DNPs while d-league scrubs play 40 minutes, its not "opinion" that those things happened, its a fact. But your standard of "evidence" is a confession.


And we have gone through each of those games at length, which came down to five games at the very end of the season, where many teams play their young guys when it is obvious that they have no chance at the playoffs. Nice try, but I remember my research on this. Those "scrubs" put up good numbers in the minutes they played. Actually, I would just like some actual evidence, not speculation to very competitive players "faking" injuries, just so the team would have a slight chance of getting the seventh pick.


If there WAS actual evidence on fixing games, people would get arrested. But to say it NEVER happens unless someone gets arrested is like saying no one ever gets murdered unless someone is actually arrested.
RunDogGun
No Sham, More Cam
Posts: 17,891
And1: 5,437
Joined: Jun 27, 2009
Location: Beyond the Sun

Re: Tankapalooza: 2014 Draft Thread 

Post#364 » by RunDogGun » Thu Nov 14, 2013 6:34 am

bwgood77 wrote:No, I don't think at all that any players fake injuries. I think what probably happens is, the GM, worried about long term job security, thinks that getting a star in the draft will help him more than finishing with 37 wins instead of 29, and figures out a way to make it more probable to lose games.

The only way to do this without telling coaches and players this, which is counterintuitive because THEIR job security is based on playing well now and winning games. So, for the GM, the only way to do this is to tell the doctor who to approve to play/not play, and no one can argue.

If team doctor says "David Lee, on his examination had ________, and it is probably a good idea for him to sit out to avoid long term injury that could impact his career" What are coach and player going to do? No, I don't have evidence, but something like this is likely what would happen in a tanking situation. They have no choice. At that point Lee and Jackson would likely know what is happening, but they really can't do anything about it.


Lee was playing very hard up to the nine games he missed. The game reports said he was injured during the last game he played. So you have to be implying that he faked that injury, or that you know for a fact that it wasn't serious. But would you risk it, if you knew your team had no chance at making the playoffs? But that is just your opinion of what May have happened, and it leaves a dishonest approach to the team, doctors, and Lee himself.

I've done a ton of research on each game, and looked at all of the injury reports from the games (I had to do this the last time Praz went through this) and found nothing that would support a strategy of tanking, right after they traded Ellis, which would have been when the gm would have had to make that ridiculous thought just to barely make that seventh pick. And they would still have to depend on other teams winning and losing, which they would have zero control over, and then have the odds in their favor at lotto day. Way too many variables to gamble with when you are trying to build a winning culture.

Again, when you guys have some real evidence, and not try and discredit your lack of evidence with comments like "it's obvious" "even a blind man can see", we can discuss this again. But as of now, there is no evidence to support GS losing games on purpose to get that seventh pick.
RunDogGun
No Sham, More Cam
Posts: 17,891
And1: 5,437
Joined: Jun 27, 2009
Location: Beyond the Sun

Re: Tankapalooza: 2014 Draft Thread 

Post#365 » by RunDogGun » Thu Nov 14, 2013 6:37 am

bwgood77 wrote:
If there WAS actual evidence on fixing games, people would get arrested. But to say it NEVER happens unless someone gets arrested is like saying no one ever gets murdered unless someone is actually arrested.


No, it is nothing like saying that.
phrazbit
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,918
And1: 655
Joined: Oct 28, 2012

Re: Tankapalooza: 2014 Draft Thread 

Post#366 » by phrazbit » Thu Nov 14, 2013 6:37 am

RunDogGun wrote:
phrazbit wrote:
RunDogGun wrote:
Well if I was on the jury, actual evidence would be required to convict. As of right now, there is no evidence to support GS losing games on purpose. Until you have some, you can say all you want, but you'll have nothing to back up your OPINIONS. :D


There is evidence, multiple games of absolutely inexplicable player usage. Healthy vets getting DNPs while d-league scrubs play 40 minutes, its not "opinion" that those things happened, its a fact. But your standard of "evidence" is a confession.


And we have gone through each of those games at length, which came down to five games at the very end of the season, where many teams play their young guys when it is obvious that they have no chance at the playoffs. Nice try, but I remember my research on this. Those "scrubs" put up good numbers in the minutes they played. Actually, I would just like some actual evidence, not speculation to very competitive players "faking" injuries, just so the team would have a slight chance of getting the seventh pick.


Yeah, I know, you went through each of those games, applied your entirely subjective opinion... and in your world your opinion is fact. You think that playing using d-league players 40+ minutes makes sense to "evaluate" them while healthy vets get DNPs... I dont. You think its an enormous coincidence that those seemingly bizarre rotations managed to slide Golden Stat into the EXACT slot they needed to keep their pick... I dont. And NONE of that is "evidence" to you, because you use your entirely subjective opinion to say it isnt, in your world anything that requires any measure of interpretation is not "evidence". And we all know how important it is to stick to strict procedure in any sports message board conversation.

Also in your opinion anyone who thinks tanking likely takes place is probably someone who has not played a competitive sport (one of your classic backhanded efforts at an insult, right along side how anyone who disagrees with you simply "does not understand").

But yeah, fine, there is no evidence, because you say so. And anyone who thinks tanking exists probably is not a competitive person... which is a real shame given how many pros and ex-pros discuss it constantly.
User avatar
bwgood77
Global Mod
Global Mod
Posts: 98,306
And1: 61,068
Joined: Feb 06, 2009
Location: Austin
Contact:
   

Re: Tankapalooza: 2014 Draft Thread 

Post#367 » by bwgood77 » Thu Nov 14, 2013 6:38 am

You know what, I think you finally convinced me. They were definitely trying their hardest to try and get some more victories. You should think about becoming an attorney.
RunDogGun
No Sham, More Cam
Posts: 17,891
And1: 5,437
Joined: Jun 27, 2009
Location: Beyond the Sun

Re: Tankapalooza: 2014 Draft Thread 

Post#368 » by RunDogGun » Thu Nov 14, 2013 6:40 am

bwgood77 wrote:You know what, I think you finally convinced me. They were definitely trying their hardest to try and get some more victories. You should think about becoming an attorney.

:D
RunDogGun
No Sham, More Cam
Posts: 17,891
And1: 5,437
Joined: Jun 27, 2009
Location: Beyond the Sun

Re: Tankapalooza: 2014 Draft Thread 

Post#369 » by RunDogGun » Thu Nov 14, 2013 6:46 am

phrazbit wrote:
Yeah, I know, you went through each of those games, applied your entirely subjective opinion... and in your world your opinion is fact. You think that playing using d-league players 40+ minutes makes sense to "evaluate" them while healthy vets get DNPs... I dont. You think its an enormous coincidence that those seemingly bizarre rotations managed to slide Golden Stat into the EXACT slot they needed to keep their pick... I dont. And NONE of that is "evidence" to you, because you use your entirely subjective opinion to say it isnt, in your world anything that requires any measure of interpretation is not "evidence". And we all know how important it is to stick to strict procedure in any sports message board conversation.

Also in your opinion anyone who thinks tanking likely takes place is probably someone who has not played a competitive sport (one of your classic backhanded efforts at an insult, right along side how anyone who disagrees with you simply "does not understand").

But yeah, fine, there is no evidence, because you say so. And anyone who thinks tanking exists probably is not a competitive person... which is a real shame given how many pros and ex-pros discuss it constantly.


Look I took all of your comments seriously, or I wouldn't have done all the research into each of those games. Again, there was no evidence to support your theory. Instead of going through all your other bull, you could just provide the evidence, which you have yet to do. You have tried the DNPs angle, and that came down to five games, and a few of them, just two to three games. We went through each of the players, and I went through each of those games. You have no evidence. :(
User avatar
thamadkant
Suns Forum Picker of Cherries
Posts: 16,916
And1: 8,599
Joined: Jan 06, 2007
 

Re: Tankapalooza: 2014 Draft Thread 

Post#370 » by thamadkant » Thu Nov 14, 2013 6:53 am

Arguing with people whose opinion won't sway is crazy... I've given up.

It's less annoying just agreeing to disagree.


And I'd be ecstatic if Goodwin and Len was getting big minutes and are main contributors to the teams success... Unfortunately it's players like Green, Markieff etc.

I'm fine with it but not happy....

In the end my stance stay.... No other person in here can sway me.

Suns are just a nice team... So far... But need another year of rebuilding to have a better shot at being a top team.
At worst I hope Lebron is watching and thinking "I can make that nice team in Phoenix to a contender"
phrazbit
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,918
And1: 655
Joined: Oct 28, 2012

Re: Tankapalooza: 2014 Draft Thread 

Post#371 » by phrazbit » Thu Nov 14, 2013 7:02 am

RunDogGun wrote:
phrazbit wrote:
Yeah, I know, you went through each of those games, applied your entirely subjective opinion... and in your world your opinion is fact. You think that playing using d-league players 40+ minutes makes sense to "evaluate" them while healthy vets get DNPs... I dont. You think its an enormous coincidence that those seemingly bizarre rotations managed to slide Golden Stat into the EXACT slot they needed to keep their pick... I dont. And NONE of that is "evidence" to you, because you use your entirely subjective opinion to say it isnt, in your world anything that requires any measure of interpretation is not "evidence". And we all know how important it is to stick to strict procedure in any sports message board conversation.

Also in your opinion anyone who thinks tanking likely takes place is probably someone who has not played a competitive sport (one of your classic backhanded efforts at an insult, right along side how anyone who disagrees with you simply "does not understand").

But yeah, fine, there is no evidence, because you say so. And anyone who thinks tanking exists probably is not a competitive person... which is a real shame given how many pros and ex-pros discuss it constantly.


Look I took all of your comments seriously, or I wouldn't have done all the research into each of those games. Again, there was no evidence to support your theory. Instead of going through all your other bull, you could just provide the evidence, which you have yet to do. You have tried the DNPs angle, and that came down to five games, and a few of them, just two to three games. We went through each of the players, and I went through each of those games. You have no evidence. :(


lol, I know, no "evidence"... in your opinion. But no need to preface that, because your "opinion" is fact. It all makes total sense to play d-league scrubs 40 minutes when you can white wash it away by saying that 5 games apparently dont matter. And we need not even discuss the logic of trading your top scorer when you're 3 games under .500... for a guy who is out for the year. All of that is not evidence. I know. You need not remind me. And why isnt it evidence? Because you say so! And anyone who disagrees is not competitive.
phrazbit
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,918
And1: 655
Joined: Oct 28, 2012

Re: Tankapalooza: 2014 Draft Thread 

Post#372 » by phrazbit » Thu Nov 14, 2013 7:08 am

1UPZ wrote:Arguing with people whose opinion won't sway is crazy... I've given up.

It's less annoying just agreeing to disagree.


And I'd be ecstatic if Goodwin and Len was getting big minutes and are main contributors to the teams success... Unfortunately it's players like Green, Markieff etc.

I'm fine with it but not happy....

In the end my stance stay.... No other person in here can sway me.

Suns are just a nice team... So far... But need another year of rebuilding to have a better shot at being a top team.
At worst I hope Lebron is watching and thinking "I can make that nice team in Phoenix to a contender"


We have the cap flexibility and trade chips that the Suns have a lot of options for how they want to build this team. If a young team has a mediocre year by league standards thats fine with me, because this young team still has room to improve. What infuraited me about last year's squad is it was built with a ton of veterans and seemingly with the maximum goal of being average, and was an obvious failure in that effort before they ever took the court.

As for Goodwin and Len's PT. I think Goodwin is getting a pretty reasonable amount of minutes. He is out there learning, some high lights some low lights. I'd rather do it this way than throw him to the wolves and put him in a situation where his confidence breaks or he develops bad habits. And Len... he cant play. I'm sure he'd get some minutes if he was healthy, but the way the FO and Horny have talked Len's ankles will allow for very sparing court time.
User avatar
thamadkant
Suns Forum Picker of Cherries
Posts: 16,916
And1: 8,599
Joined: Jan 06, 2007
 

Re: Tankapalooza: 2014 Draft Thread 

Post#373 » by thamadkant » Thu Nov 14, 2013 7:13 am

If RDG can show proof that Warriors didn't tank then Prazbit and BW lose the argument.
And vice versa...

So since no GM or official will EVER admit to it then it's stalemate and the argument that Warriors tanked is slightly more viable than them not tanking because there are more circumstantial evidence of tanking...

So it's the debate will go in circles over and over.

All I'm going to say is majority of other team fans also felt that Warriors tanked and even their own fans think they tanked... Just by reading posts here in RealGM at the time.
Revived
RealGM
Posts: 37,461
And1: 22,236
Joined: Feb 17, 2011

Re: Tankapalooza: 2014 Draft Thread 

Post#374 » by Revived » Thu Nov 14, 2013 7:17 am

1UPZ wrote:At worst I hope Lebron is watching and thinking "I can make that nice team in Phoenix to a contender"

LeBron isn't coming here man. No chance. I know dreaming is free and all but chances of LeBron signing with PHX are the same as the chances of me and you having a threesome with Kate Upton.
RunDogGun
No Sham, More Cam
Posts: 17,891
And1: 5,437
Joined: Jun 27, 2009
Location: Beyond the Sun

Re: Tankapalooza: 2014 Draft Thread 

Post#375 » by RunDogGun » Thu Nov 14, 2013 7:18 am

phrazbit wrote:
lol, I know, no "evidence". In your opinion. But no need to preface that, because your "opinion" is fact. It all makes total sense to play d-league scrubs 40 minutes when you can white wash it away by saying that 5 games apparently dont matter. And we need not even discuss the logic of trading your top scorer when you're 3 games under .500... for a guy who is out for the year. All of that is not evidence. I know. You need not remind me. And why isnt it evidence? Because you say so! And anyone who disagrees is not competitive.


Again, we have gone through the minutes stuff, and it didn't support your theory. I showed you the stats for guys like Jenkins when he got large minutes. He produced quite well.

I don't know what the mindset of the team when they made that trade, but guess what, neither do you!

The facts we have, are: it was a shorten season, they were plagued with injuries to key players and reserves, a new coach, and they had a whole squad of rookies. The variables were too many, in such a short time to prove anything.

Was the outcome fortunate to them? Sure it was. Could they have predicted all of those variables to arrive at that outcome thirty-two games in advance? Highly doubtful. Those are my opinions, sure, but the actual evidence does not support your opinion that they tanked with thirty-two games left in a lockout season.

Now instead of trying to attack my character, you could just try to provide us with actual evidence.
RunDogGun
No Sham, More Cam
Posts: 17,891
And1: 5,437
Joined: Jun 27, 2009
Location: Beyond the Sun

Re: Tankapalooza: 2014 Draft Thread 

Post#376 » by RunDogGun » Thu Nov 14, 2013 7:23 am

1UPZ wrote:If RDG can show proof that Warriors didn't tank then Prazbit and BW lose the argument.
And vice versa...

So since no GM or official will EVER admit to it then it's stalemate and the argument that Warriors tanked is slightly more viable than them not tanking because there are more circumstantial evidence of tanking...

So it's the debate will go in circles over and over.

All I'm going to say is majority of other team fans also felt that Warriors tanked and even their own fans think they tanked... Just by reading posts here in RealGM at the time.

What? I don't have to prove they didn't tank. The burden of proof is on those who are accusing. I went through all the games, and all the charges, and there is no proof that the team did anything dishonest to rig the system to give them the seventh pick.
User avatar
thamadkant
Suns Forum Picker of Cherries
Posts: 16,916
And1: 8,599
Joined: Jan 06, 2007
 

Re: Tankapalooza: 2014 Draft Thread 

Post#377 » by thamadkant » Thu Nov 14, 2013 7:25 am

SF88 wrote:
1UPZ wrote:At worst I hope Lebron is watching and thinking "I can make that nice team in Phoenix to a contender"

LeBron isn't coming here man. No chance. I know dreaming is free and all but chances of LeBron signing with PHX are the same as the chances of me and you having a threesome with Kate Upton.



It's not impossible...

Bledsoe is a key ingredient to entice him.

Another would be to show that the suns can get another star next to them.
RunDogGun
No Sham, More Cam
Posts: 17,891
And1: 5,437
Joined: Jun 27, 2009
Location: Beyond the Sun

Re: Tankapalooza: 2014 Draft Thread 

Post#378 » by RunDogGun » Thu Nov 14, 2013 7:25 am

SF88 wrote:
1UPZ wrote:At worst I hope Lebron is watching and thinking "I can make that nice team in Phoenix to a contender"

LeBron isn't coming here man. No chance. I know dreaming is free and all but chances of LeBron signing with PHX are the same as the chances of me and you having a threesome with Kate Upton.

You want to have a threesome with the madman? :o
phrazbit
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,918
And1: 655
Joined: Oct 28, 2012

Re: Tankapalooza: 2014 Draft Thread 

Post#379 » by phrazbit » Thu Nov 14, 2013 7:34 am

RunDogGun wrote:
Now instead of trying to attack my character, you could just try to provide us with actual evidence.


Attack your character? You jump on people all the time for not prefacing their "opinion", I call you out on it AND your sweeping generalization that people who disagree with you are apparently not competitive and its trying to attack your character?

Again, you dont subject yourself to the same standards you hold others to. It makes it really hard to have these debates in good faith when pull this stuff.

We disagree on this, just as we have on many topics, but your arbitrary dismissal of anything that contradicts your stance, only to turn and then mock those who disagree for having shown "nothing"... not simply that you disagree with their interpretation, no instead its "nothing", and frequently with an insult piled on.

I disagree with your interpretations. I understand the stance your taking, but there are far too many odd maneuverings on that Golden State roster, all leading to a profoundly fortunate outcome for the franchise for me to dismiss it as mere coincidence. If you disagree with that... fine. But to continue to say its all "nothing", simply because you say so, is a laughable hypocrisy.
Revived
RealGM
Posts: 37,461
And1: 22,236
Joined: Feb 17, 2011

Re: Tankapalooza: 2014 Draft Thread 

Post#380 » by Revived » Thu Nov 14, 2013 7:41 am

1UPZ wrote:
SF88 wrote:
1UPZ wrote:At worst I hope Lebron is watching and thinking "I can make that nice team in Phoenix to a contender"

LeBron isn't coming here man. No chance. I know dreaming is free and all but chances of LeBron signing with PHX are the same as the chances of me and you having a threesome with Kate Upton.



It's not impossible...

Bledsoe is a key ingredient to entice him.

Another would be to show that the suns can get another star next to them.

LeBron is friends with Bledsoe...doesn't mean squat. LeBron is friends with guys on the Bobcats and the Wizards also.

And I don't even think LeBron is gonna be that much of a ring chaser. He left Cleveland cause the idiot FO stuff absolutely disrespected him and kept putting crap players around him. He's won 2 titles out of 4 years ( if they don't this year) and he's made it to the Finals 3 times (if they don't make it this year). I'm sure he will just stay put there and try again.

Return to Phoenix Suns