Suns Offseason Thread 3: Spurned for the Spurs

[RunDogGun]

Yahoo Sources: Lakers, Lou Williams agree to three-year, $21M free agent deal.

That should be interesting.

[MrMiyagi]

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/turnovers/sort/avgTurnovers/order/false

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/turnovers/sort/assistTurnoverRatio/position/point-guards/order/false

But an assist to turnover ratio should not be used when discussing whether a player is a "turnover machine".

Well, when the other players with high turnovers get way more assists than Bledsoe does, it's easier to forgive their turnovers.

[RunDogGun]

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/turnovers/sort/assistTurnoverRatio/position/point-guards/order/false

But an assist to turnover ratio should not be used when discussing whether a player is a "turnover machine".

Well, when the other players with high turnovers get way more assists than Bledsoe does, it's easier to forgive their turnovers.

Well the question wasn't whether one can forgive, it was a question of producing so much product that one would label that person a machine. If Bledsoe is a turnover machine, then so are many other top guards, and heck Westbrook is a whole factory.

But to add to your really separate issue, it would also help if you play with good efficient shooters, smart cutters, guys that seal their man out well, and guys that take the initial shot instead of backing their man down only to take a contested fade away.

[MrMiyagi]

But an assist to turnover ratio should not be used when discussing whether a player is a "turnover machine".

Well, when the other players with high turnovers get way more assists than Bledsoe does, it's easier to forgive their turnovers.

Well the question wasn't whether one can forgive, it was a question of producing so much product that one would label that person a machine. If Bledsoe is a turnover machine, then so are many other top guards, and heck Westbrook is a whole factory.

But to add to your really separate issue, it would also help if you play with good efficient shooters, smart cutters, guys that seal their man out well, and guys that take the initial shot instead of backing their man down only to take a contested fade away.

You're not wrong. I also don't think Bled is a turnover machine, just providing the reason others do.

[sunsbum]

Comparing Westbrook's production to turnovers vs Bledsoes is laughable. I don't think you'd here a whole lot of complaing if bledsoe was putting up the numbers Westbrook is.

[MrMiyagi]

Steve Nash's turnover rate during his time with the Suns: 21.4% at 3.5 TO per game
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/n/nashst01.html#2005-2012-sum:per_game
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/n/nashst01.html#2005-2012-sum:advanced

Bledsoe's turnover rate during his time with the Suns: 18.0% at 3.4 TO per game
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bledser01.html#2014-2015-sum:per_game
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bledser01.html#2014-2015-sum:advanced

[RunDogGun]

Comparing Westbrook's production to turnovers vs Bledsoes is laughable. I don't think you'd here a whole lot of complaing if bledsoe was putting up the numbers Westbrook is.

Holy f*ckballs! The whole thing was about TURNOVERS! Please everyone stop trying to change the subject and then rip the comments based on your new subject.

[RunDogGun]

Steve Nash's turnover rate during his time with the Suns: 21.4% at 3.5 TO per game
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/n/nashst01.html#2005-2012-sum:per_game
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/n/nashst01.html#2005-2012-sum:advanced

Bledsoe's turnover rate during his time with the Suns: 18.0% at 3.4 TO per game
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bledser01.html#2014-2015-sum:per_game
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bledser01.html#2014-2015-sum:advanced

Man Nash was a "turnover machine"! And Westbrook is a "turnover factory".

[letsgosuns]

In Steve Nash's second stint with the Suns, he averaged 10.9 assists and 3.5 turnovers per game in 8 seasons. That is a 3.1 to 1 assist to turnover ratio. In Bledsoe's two seasons with the Suns so far, he has averaged 5.9 assists and 3.4 turnovers per game in 2 seasons. That is a 1.7 to 1 assist to turnover ratio. Not good. Him and Nash might average about the same turnovers but Nash doubles him for assists.

But forget about statistics. Anybody watching the Suns the past two years knows that there are many times a game Bledsoe plays out of control. He often seems to lose his concentration and have mental errors where he throws lazy passes, casually dribbles, or goes way too fast. Those are bad turnovers. Being a passing point guard, you will have turnovers, it is inevitable. Especially when you are trying to be creative and taking chances. But losing focus and getting unforced turnovers like Bledsoe does is not what you want from a point guard.

Westbrook's career assist to turnover ratio is 2 to 1. However he is rarely not engaged and seems to never lose focus. He gets turnovers because he is playing at 100 mph, 100% of the time. There are times you could say he appears out of control but he is just so in your face and fast and is doing so much. You can live with his turnovers because he is giving you everything he has. When Bledsoe throws a careless pass that is picked off and he seems disengaged, that is something that is unacceptable from an effort stand point. Once in a while is not terrible, but he does it way too often. I hope he can cut down on those unforced turnovers.

[NoKneeBledsoe]

My thing is keep the team how we have it now....


Trade Markieff and something to get that idiot out of here! I can see him crying about his brother !

How can we get Kantar???! He would be ideal next to chandler
S & t Markieff or offer where okc can't match

[KLEON]

I would sign Lou Amundson and also bring in one of these players: Bass, Lee or Amare

[RunDogGun]

In Steve Nash's second stint with the Suns, he averaged 10.9 assists and 3.5 turnovers per game in 8 seasons. That is a 3.1 to 1 assist to turnover ratio. In Bledsoe's two seasons with the Suns so far, he has averaged 5.9 assists and 3.4 turnovers per game in 2 seasons. That is a 1.7 to 1 assist to turnover ratio. Not good. Him and Nash might average about the same turnovers but Nash doubles him for assists.

But forget about statistics. Anybody watching the Suns the past two years knows that there are many times a game Bledsoe plays out of control. He often seems to lose his concentration and have mental errors where he throws lazy passes, casually dribbles, or goes way too fast. Those are bad turnovers. Being a passing point guard, you will have turnovers, it is inevitable. Especially when you are trying to be creative and taking chances. But losing focus and getting unforced turnovers like Bledsoe does is not what you want from a point guard.

Westbrook's career assist to turnover ratio is 2 to 1. However he is rarely not engaged and seems to never lose focus. He gets turnovers because he is playing at 100 mph, 100% of the time. There are times you could say he appears out of control but he is just so in your face and fast and is doing so much. You can live with his turnovers because he is giving you everything he has. When Bledsoe throws a careless pass that is picked off and he seems disengaged, that is something that is unacceptable from an effort stand point. Once in a while is not terrible, but he does it way too often. I hope he can cut down on those unforced turnovers.

Again, assist to turnover ratio does not apply when we are talking about a single stat called turnovers.
We had some lazy players all around lasted year, where guys didn't come to the pass. Heck I watched Len in bound the ball directly at opposing player.
Westbrook often plays out of control.

So if we are labeling players according to one stat, it is fair to label other players that produce similar numbers in that stat.

Lastly, I never said anything about assists or steals. So if there wants to be a discussion about those, have at it, and I'll chime in if I feel I need/want to. But this was about TURNOVERS, and whether or not Bledsoe produces enough of them to be labeled a machine. Overall, he doesn't produce more than a few points, and very close to other big named points. For example, if we used a ten game average, last season Westbrook would be 44, Wall 38, Bledsoe 34, Rose 32, and Curry 31. Who would be considered a "Turnover machine"? Bledsoe? Why? Just more exaggerations to say bad things about players.

Now I'm not saying that Bledsoe doesn't make lazy passes at times, but so does every point guard. Also when Warren played more minutes, and cut to the basket, Bledsoe made good passes to him in good position to finish. When he passed to an open Morris, both would often take a few dribbles, and take a contested fade away. So the pass itself was fine, but it wouldn't show up as an assist even if those guys made the basket. Hence, the assist to turnover ratio should not even be looked at, when we are only talking about one of those stats.

[RunDogGun]

Cool, I'm finished, why don't you guys talk about the length of shorts now, for that also has nothing to do with Turnovers. Man AJ, can you post that global warming to pirates ratio again, seems fitting about now.

[MrMiyagi]

In Steve Nash's second stint with the Suns, he averaged 10.9 assists and 3.5 turnovers per game in 8 seasons. That is a 3.1 to 1 assist to turnover ratio. In Bledsoe's two seasons with the Suns so far, he has averaged 5.9 assists and 3.4 turnovers per game in 2 seasons. That is a 1.7 to 1 assist to turnover ratio. Not good. Him and Nash might average about the same turnovers but Nash doubles him for assists.

But forget about statistics. Anybody watching the Suns the past two years knows that there are many times a game Bledsoe plays out of control. He often seems to lose his concentration and have mental errors where he throws lazy passes, casually dribbles, or goes way too fast. Those are bad turnovers. Being a passing point guard, you will have turnovers, it is inevitable. Especially when you are trying to be creative and taking chances. But losing focus and getting unforced turnovers like Bledsoe does is not what you want from a point guard.

Westbrook's career assist to turnover ratio is 2 to 1. However he is rarely not engaged and seems to never lose focus. He gets turnovers because he is playing at 100 mph, 100% of the time. There are times you could say he appears out of control but he is just so in your face and fast and is doing so much. You can live with his turnovers because he is giving you everything he has. When Bledsoe throws a careless pass that is picked off and he seems disengaged, that is something that is unacceptable from an effort stand point. Once in a while is not terrible, but he does it way too often. I hope he can cut down on those unforced turnovers.

I think this is overstated by many people on this board. Yes, Bledsoe throw errant passes or gets the ball picked on occasion, but it isn't as frequent as many assert it is. We give guys like Nash a pass because he was likely throwing a ball to a cutting teammate. We remember it as an almost spectacular pass as opposed to what it was, a turnover. Bledsoe is still young and is a different player than Nash. We've really been spoiled when it comes to point guards in Phoenix and we fail to recognize that Bledsoe is a very good player because his assist-to-turnover ratio isn't like Nash's.

[RunDogGun]

I would sign Lou Amundson and also bring in one of these players: Bass, Lee or Amare

I'd still try and get West at a cheap short deal. But I'd take Lou over Amare at this point, if I was thinking of second units. That way we could try and get offense out of Warren and Len.

[SkinnyOMiller]

Sorry, there isnt anything to it.. It was my mistake

When you say true shooting guard I guess we can assume you mean a non-starter? Because I don't see how we possibly have room for another starting quality guard.

this worries me. I would love for Archie and booker just to play the back up guard minutes. I fear were gonna sign some bull **** replacement level guard and I'm gonna hate every minute they play. At some point we need to let guys like Archie Warren and booker **** play and see what we have in them.

Booker is 18, I'd be shocked if he doesn't spend more time in the NBDL than on the roster. He's got a ton of promise but is incredibly raw.

[SkinnyOMiller]

I would sign Lou Amundson and also bring in one of these players: Bass, Lee or Amare

I'd still try and get West at a cheap short deal. But I'd take Lou over Amare at this point, if I was thinking of second units. That way we could try and get offense out of Warren and Len.

West opted out of a $12 million deal, knowing he would get less money, to try and win a championship, there is no freaking way he would come to Phoenix, forget about it.

[MrMiyagi]

When you say true shooting guard I guess we can assume you mean a non-starter? Because I don't see how we possibly have room for another starting quality guard.

this worries me. I would love for Archie and booker just to play the back up guard minutes. I fear were gonna sign some bull **** replacement level guard and I'm gonna hate every minute they play. At some point we need to let guys like Archie Warren and booker **** play and see what we have in them.

Booker is 18, I'd be shocked if he doesn't spend more time in the NBDL than on the roster. He's got a ton of promise but is incredibly raw.

Actually, I think he'll stay up with us because shooting keeps guys on the floor more than any other skill. Archie was up and down because he didn't have a jump shot. When he started to get minutes toward the end of the season, he had a much better shot.

[SkinnyOMiller]

I would sign Lou Amundson and also bring in one of these players: Bass, Lee or Amare

I'd be fine with Amundson and Leuer. I've always liked Amundson, wouldn't expect too much from him but he'd be a good fit in the locker room, a hard working veteran, good character, would be further turning the page from the dark cloud that was hanging over this team last season. Chandler, Amundson, maybe a veteran PG, some experienced, hard working players for the younger guys to emulate.

[RunDogGun]

In Steve Nash's second stint with the Suns, he averaged 10.9 assists and 3.5 turnovers per game in 8 seasons. That is a 3.1 to 1 assist to turnover ratio. In Bledsoe's two seasons with the Suns so far, he has averaged 5.9 assists and 3.4 turnovers per game in 2 seasons. That is a 1.7 to 1 assist to turnover ratio. Not good. Him and Nash might average about the same turnovers but Nash doubles him for assists.

But forget about statistics. Anybody watching the Suns the past two years knows that there are many times a game Bledsoe plays out of control. He often seems to lose his concentration and have mental errors where he throws lazy passes, casually dribbles, or goes way too fast. Those are bad turnovers. Being a passing point guard, you will have turnovers, it is inevitable. Especially when you are trying to be creative and taking chances. But losing focus and getting unforced turnovers like Bledsoe does is not what you want from a point guard.

Westbrook's career assist to turnover ratio is 2 to 1. However he is rarely not engaged and seems to never lose focus. He gets turnovers because he is playing at 100 mph, 100% of the time. There are times you could say he appears out of control but he is just so in your face and fast and is doing so much. You can live with his turnovers because he is giving you everything he has. When Bledsoe throws a careless pass that is picked off and he seems disengaged, that is something that is unacceptable from an effort stand point. Once in a while is not terrible, but he does it way too often. I hope he can cut down on those unforced turnovers.

I think this is overstated by many people on this board. Yes, Bledsoe throw errant passes or gets the ball picked on occasion, but it isn't as frequent as many assert it is. We give guys like Nash a pass because he was likely throwing a ball to a cutting teammate. We remember it as an almost spectacular pass as opposed to what it was, a turnover. Bledsoe is still young and is a different player than Nash. We've really been spoiled when it comes to point guards in Phoenix and we fail to recognize that Bledsoe is a very good player because his assist-to-turnover ratio isn't like Nash's.

Nash also had better shooters around him, and often was passing to a player that was finishing that pass. But he had games where he sucked and had huge numbers of turnovers. Overall, if guys can shoot better, cut more, and play less ISO ball, our assists will get better.