KD to the Suns

[Revived]

One title and I consider the trade a win. No title and it's quite bad trade. I doubt Suns fade off with Booker and Ayton on the team in their prime. Maybe not as good as they would've been if no trade, but still competitive.

I would be fine giving so much if Durant was 30 with no major injuries. Or at least the trade was made in the offseason, so the team can build some chemistry. Don't know what to expect out of this season with 20 games remaining on KD's debut.

I've come around more on the trade and don't consider no title an abject failure. There's no move that guarantees and championship and if there was, it would cost a helluva lot more than what we gave up.

In that sense, would you not have considered the Heat to be a failure if they didn’t win at least one title with LeBron/Wade/Bosh? Or if the Warriors never won a title after signing Durant? If “there’s no move that guarantees a championship” then if those teams hadn’t won at least 1 title during LeBron’s and KD’s tenure with those teams, that wouldn’t be a failure either? I’d disagree and I think most people would.

Of course both Bron and KD were much more in their primes than KD is now so you can argue the pressure to win a title wouldn’t be quite as high but at the same time considering we gave up one of the biggest trade packages in league history for KD, the pressure is there just the same if not more.

[lilfishi22]

One title and I consider the trade a win. No title and it's quite bad trade. I doubt Suns fade off with Booker and Ayton on the team in their prime. Maybe not as good as they would've been if no trade, but still competitive.

I would be fine giving so much if Durant was 30 with no major injuries. Or at least the trade was made in the offseason, so the team can build some chemistry. Don't know what to expect out of this season with 20 games remaining on KD's debut.

I've come around more on the trade and don't consider no title an abject failure. There's no move that guarantees and championship and if there was, it would cost a helluva lot more than what we gave up.

In that sense, would you not have considered the Heat to be a failure if they didn’t win at least one title with LeBron/Wade/Bosh? Or if the Warriors never won a title after signing Durant? If “there’s no move that guarantees a championship” then if those teams hadn’t won at least 1 title during LeBron’s and KD’s tenure with those teams, that wouldn’t be a failure either? I’d disagree and I think most people would.

Of course both Bron and KD were much more in their primes than KD is now so you can argue the pressure to win a title wouldn’t be quite as high but at the same time considering we gave up one of the biggest trade packages in league history for KD, the pressure is there just the same if not more.

I look at it like this, if it's all about a title then we're arguably in a better position to win it with KD than without. If we don't win it, then we're right where we were pre-trade...still no championship.

Maybe I'm just looking at things differently now but failure is such a black and white thing and rarely are things black and white. I mean, the fact that this franchise has been in existence for 55 year without a title, does it make it a failure of a team?

[sunsbg]

I've come around more on the trade and don't consider no title an abject failure. There's no move that guarantees and championship and if there was, it would cost a helluva lot more than what we gave up.

In that sense, would you not have considered the Heat to be a failure if they didn’t win at least one title with LeBron/Wade/Bosh? Or if the Warriors never won a title after signing Durant? If “there’s no move that guarantees a championship” then if those teams hadn’t won at least 1 title during LeBron’s and KD’s tenure with those teams, that wouldn’t be a failure either? I’d disagree and I think most people would.

Of course both Bron and KD were much more in their primes than KD is now so you can argue the pressure to win a title wouldn’t be quite as high but at the same time considering we gave up one of the biggest trade packages in league history for KD, the pressure is there just the same if not more.

I look at it like this, if it's all about a title then we're arguably in a better position to win it with KD than without. If we don't win it, then we're right where we were pre-trade...still no championship.

Maybe I'm just looking at things differently now but failure is such a black and white thing and rarely are things black and white. I mean, the fact that this franchise has been in existence for 55 year without a title, does it make it a failure of a team?

Well, by that logic it's always white. This is clearly a win title move so if no title it may not be black but some shade of grey because future would have looked brighter with Mikal, Cam J and all those picks.

[WeekapaugGroove]

I can see an argument for the move depending on your perpsective and what matters, but I certainly don't think anyone can say it doesn't AT ALL impact our long term future OR comes without risk with a straight face. I mean, that part is quite absurd. Surely you can admit that we gave up A LOT of future opportunties trading two very very good young players and 4 unprotected firsts taking away any chance at draft pieces for 4 years..that's before considering the pick swap and what could have been had for Crowder (at least 5 seconds if not a useful player to add).

I am not particularly impressed with Ishbia at this point and think he was a bit overexuberant in his first few days, but understand he wanted to make a splash and show fans he will go for it and pay the tax. It is respectful but also possibly very reckless.

I agree with everything you’ve said here but especially this.

I feel like it took Sarver years to learn that NBA isn’t about flashiness and that “substance” is much more sustainable than “splash”. That’s why when he was owner he reportedly told the Nets that Suns would only trade either the players (Bridges/Crowder/Johnson) or picks (probably same ones traded out now) but not both.

And yeah there’s definitely risk involved. The expectation with this kind of a trade has to be 2 championships. But if the Suns don’t win at least one a championship within the 3 years, this is immediately one of the very worst trades in NBA history and easily by far the worst trade in franchise history.

Bill Simmons said on his podcast that this trade package for Durant has to be 2nd best trade package ever traded for a superstar player when taking into account the players and picks given away. And he had Paul George deal as the highest trade package because of SGA being a star now.

But like I’ve said before, win 2 titles (at least 1 at minimum) with this group then everyone will forget about the picks and players traded away.

Yeah, gotta win at least 2 for it to be worth it. Win one and then fade off would be depressing..hoping for a 3 peat. Then it will definitely be worth it.

Hold on here, it's that a bit hypocritical since your argument against the trade was you want to see good consistent basketball and you're not as concerned with championships.

So let's say they make deep and exciting runs each year but just never actually win it all. Teams good the whole time none of the picks going out really amount to much. Isn't that basically what you said you would be good with it they kept rolling forward with Cam and Bridges?

Like I get if it all goes to **** and we have to watch bad basketball and give up top 5 picks then it's absolutely a failure.

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[Saberestar]

I can see an argument for the move depending on your perpsective and what matters, but I certainly don't think anyone can say it doesn't AT ALL impact our long term future OR comes without risk with a straight face. I mean, that part is quite absurd. Surely you can admit that we gave up A LOT of future opportunties trading two very very good young players and 4 unprotected firsts taking away any chance at draft pieces for 4 years..that's before considering the pick swap and what could have been had for Crowder (at least 5 seconds if not a useful player to add).

I am not particularly impressed with Ishbia at this point and think he was a bit overexuberant in his first few days, but understand he wanted to make a splash and show fans he will go for it and pay the tax. It is respectful but also possibly very reckless.

I agree with everything you’ve said here but especially this.

I feel like it took Sarver years to learn that NBA isn’t about flashiness and that “substance” is much more sustainable than “splash”. That’s why when he was owner he reportedly told the Nets that Suns would only trade either the players (Bridges/Crowder/Johnson) or picks (probably same ones traded out now) but not both.

And yeah there’s definitely risk involved. The expectation with this kind of a trade has to be 2 championships. But if the Suns don’t win at least one a championship within the 3 years, this is immediately one of the very worst trades in NBA history and easily by far the worst trade in franchise history.

Bill Simmons said on his podcast that this trade package for Durant has to be 2nd best trade package ever traded for a superstar player when taking into account the players and picks given away. And he had Paul George deal as the highest trade package because of SGA being a star now.

But like I’ve said before, win 2 titles (at least 1 at minimum) with this group then everyone will forget about the picks and players traded away.

Yeah, gotta win at least 2 for it to be worth it. Win one and then fade off would be depressing..hoping for a 3 peat. Then it will definitely be worth it.

Are you SERIOUSLY saying that even winning "only" one championship you would consider this trade a failure?

After winning a championship teams usually stay strong for a good amount of years. Book and Ayton will be in his prime in the future.

[Revived]

I've come around more on the trade and don't consider no title an abject failure. There's no move that guarantees and championship and if there was, it would cost a helluva lot more than what we gave up.

In that sense, would you not have considered the Heat to be a failure if they didn’t win at least one title with LeBron/Wade/Bosh? Or if the Warriors never won a title after signing Durant? If “there’s no move that guarantees a championship” then if those teams hadn’t won at least 1 title during LeBron’s and KD’s tenure with those teams, that wouldn’t be a failure either? I’d disagree and I think most people would.

Of course both Bron and KD were much more in their primes than KD is now so you can argue the pressure to win a title wouldn’t be quite as high but at the same time considering we gave up one of the biggest trade packages in league history for KD, the pressure is there just the same if not more.

I look at it like this, if it's all about a title then we're arguably in a better position to win it with KD than without. If we don't win it, then we're right where we were pre-trade...still no championship.

Maybe I'm just looking at things differently now but failure is such a black and white thing and rarely are things black and white. I mean, the fact that this franchise has been in existence for 55 year without a title, does it make it a failure of a team?

Not necessarily, because with the KD trade, our window is shorter. We may have a better chance to win a ring but we also have less of a contending window to do it now. And that’s a fact because of the age difference between Bridges and Johnson. Also Bridges this season finally took on more a role in being a scorer and who knows, even despite being 26, how much more he could’ve developed in that role.

Of course pre-trade, the Suns were good enough to make it to the Finals and come 2 games shy of winning a ring. Now with the addition of KD and all, the expectation should be to again make the finals and win those 2 additional games that were needed.

If Suns never made the KD trade, then you have a nucleus of Ayton/Booker/Bridges/Johnson all in the same age range and perhaps one of the non-Booker players takes a next step to become a star player alongside him as well. If not, well Suns have every draft pick to their name so perhaps they draft a player who develops into the star. Or maybe save the same trade package for a player that’s not 35 yrs old. Or maybe they make a smaller trade (my preference) similar to the one the Lakers made bringing in 2-3 very solid starters all for the price of one protected 1st rd pick establish an all around team and try to make a run that way.

Of course these are all hypotheticals just like KD staying healthy and averaging better stats than 26 pts, 6 assists, 5 turnovers, 4 fouls on better than 38% shooting from the field and 33% from 3 can be a hypothetical too. Those are his stats from last year’s playoffs with Nets.

[Frank Lee]

Here ya go Sabes

[WeekapaugGroove]

Here ya go Sabes

Well I'd rather see the world though those than butthole eyes where all you see around you is ****.

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[matt131]

Here ya go Sabes

Well I'd rather see the world though those than butthole eyes where all you see around you is ****.

Sent from my SM-G986U using RealGM mobile app

Hahahaha what an image

[Pointgod]

so while we're continuing to talk about the KD trade (since that's all we can do now while waiting for him to suit up), I was circling back to the conversation about the most high profile players to have been traded midseason. People have talked about Pau and Drexler, but I remembered now that Dominique Wilkins was also traded midseason from the Hawks to the Clippers in the 90s, and when you look at that trade again, there are actually quite a few parallels.

- both KD and Nique were in their mid-30s
- both had recently recovered from achilles injuries
- both had returned from said surgeries to perform very well
- both were traded from good teams at the time
- both trades featured "lesser" talent going back (Danny Manning to the Hawks in Nique's case)

I remember watching Nique on the Clippers after the trade as a kid and he looked very good, and it was a big deal for the Clippers at the time back when they were still the laughingstock of the NBA. Unfortunately for LA, Nique only lasted until the offseason and then went to Boston and then was basically done 2 years later. Hope we get a MUCH different ending!

I think of the Shaq trade...huge name, top player of all time, 35, for Marion, who was 29. The only thing was, Marion fit our team and style better, was 6 years younger and was actually putting up better #s. KD is way better now than Shaq was, but is injured over half the time the last few years and we gave up far more in getting him...2 starter quality players...one probable future all star or at least one of best two way players and top wing defenders and all the unprotected picks.

Man Durant is getting heavily underrated now. I thought at first you meant Shaq when he joined the Heat but man you’re talking about Shaq in Phoenix Durant was putting MVP numbers 30,7,5 before his injury. He was a positive in all advanced stats on both he defensive and offensive end. This ain’t Phoenix Shaq who was already a shell of himself by the time he left Miami.

The Durant underrating is wild. The Nets big 3 were absolutely dominant when they played together and were 13-3 in the games where all 3 were available. It’s not Durant’s fault Kyrie is a selfish nutcase and Harden is a quitter bitch at the first sign of adversity. If those 3 had played out their contracts they’d have a championship. And I still think Durant has one more championship in him and unless you think that Paul, Booker and Ayton will turn into me first nut jobs, the Suns are in the best position to win a chip they’ll be in for a long time.

[WeekapaugGroove]

so while we're continuing to talk about the KD trade (since that's all we can do now while waiting for him to suit up), I was circling back to the conversation about the most high profile players to have been traded midseason. People have talked about Pau and Drexler, but I remembered now that Dominique Wilkins was also traded midseason from the Hawks to the Clippers in the 90s, and when you look at that trade again, there are actually quite a few parallels.

- both KD and Nique were in their mid-30s
- both had recently recovered from achilles injuries
- both had returned from said surgeries to perform very well
- both were traded from good teams at the time
- both trades featured "lesser" talent going back (Danny Manning to the Hawks in Nique's case)

I remember watching Nique on the Clippers after the trade as a kid and he looked very good, and it was a big deal for the Clippers at the time back when they were still the laughingstock of the NBA. Unfortunately for LA, Nique only lasted until the offseason and then went to Boston and then was basically done 2 years later. Hope we get a MUCH different ending!

I think of the Shaq trade...huge name, top player of all time, 35, for Marion, who was 29. The only thing was, Marion fit our team and style better, was 6 years younger and was actually putting up better #s. KD is way better now than Shaq was, but is injured over half the time the last few years and we gave up far more in getting him...2 starter quality players...one probable future all star or at least one of best two way players and top wing defenders and all the unprotected picks.

Man Durant is getting heavily underrated now. I thought at first you meant Shaq when he joined the Heat but man you’re talking about Shaq in Phoenix Durant was putting MVP numbers 30,7,5 before his injury. He was a positive in all advanced stats on both he defensive and offensive end. This ain’t Phoenix Shaq who was already a shell of himself by the time he left Miami.

The Durant underrating is wild. The Nets big 3 were absolutely dominant when they played together and were 13-3 in the games where all 3 were available. It’s not Durant’s fault Kyrie is a selfish nutcase and Harden is a quitter bitch at the first sign of adversity. If those 3 had played out their contracts they’d have a championship. And I still think Durant has one more championship in him and unless you think that Paul, Booker and Ayton will turn into me first nut jobs, the Suns are in the best position to win a chip they’ll be in for a long time.

The Shaq to Miami trade is an interesting comp in that them doing that then winning a chip vaulted them up a level as a franchise. All the sudden they were considered an elite spot. I'm not sure the LeBron teams happen without that happening first.

I said it at the time but more than anything I thought this move signified Ishbia wanting to shed the mid market mindset of the franchise. He wants to be one of the big dog franchises.

Who knows if it will work but I like the attitude.

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[lilfishi22]

In that sense, would you not have considered the Heat to be a failure if they didn’t win at least one title with LeBron/Wade/Bosh? Or if the Warriors never won a title after signing Durant? If “there’s no move that guarantees a championship” then if those teams hadn’t won at least 1 title during LeBron’s and KD’s tenure with those teams, that wouldn’t be a failure either? I’d disagree and I think most people would.

Of course both Bron and KD were much more in their primes than KD is now so you can argue the pressure to win a title wouldn’t be quite as high but at the same time considering we gave up one of the biggest trade packages in league history for KD, the pressure is there just the same if not more.

I look at it like this, if it's all about a title then we're arguably in a better position to win it with KD than without. If we don't win it, then we're right where we were pre-trade...still no championship.

Maybe I'm just looking at things differently now but failure is such a black and white thing and rarely are things black and white. I mean, the fact that this franchise has been in existence for 55 year without a title, does it make it a failure of a team?

Not necessarily, because with the KD trade, our window is shorter. We may have a better chance to win a ring but we also have less of a contending window to do it now. And that’s a fact because of the age difference between Bridges and Johnson. Also Bridges this season finally took on more a role in being a scorer and who knows, even despite being 26, how much more he could’ve developed in that role.

Of course pre-trade, the Suns were good enough to make it to the Finals and come 2 games shy of winning a ring. Now with the addition of KD and all, the expectation should be to again make the finals and win those 2 additional games that were needed.

If Suns never made the KD trade, then you have a nucleus of Ayton/Booker/Bridges/Johnson all in the same age range and perhaps one of the non-Booker players takes a next step to become a star player alongside him as well. If not, well Suns have every draft pick to their name so perhaps they draft a player who develops into the star. Or maybe save the same trade package for a player that’s not 35 yrs old. Or maybe they make a smaller trade (my preference) similar to the one the Lakers made bringing in 2-3 very solid starters all for the price of one protected 1st rd pick establish an all around team and try to make a run that way.

Of course these are all hypotheticals just like KD staying healthy and averaging better stats than 26 pts, 6 assists, 5 turnovers, 4 fouls on better than 38% shooting from the field and 33% from 3 can be a hypothetical too. Those are his stats from last year’s playoffs with Nets.

Yes you're right, the window might be shorter but it's also more open than ever? I don't know how to quantify that for you but all I can say is that, we're trying and this is our biggest push for a title than in the last two decades. I don't have an issue with that rationale.

And yes, we could've kept everything and it would be fun with the young guys and still end up with nothing. I was comfortable with that approach but also fully realised that it would likely be no better than the last two years' of payoff/Finals runs. So given that, I would've be fine with just moving ahead with the young guys, play fun basketball but deep down I know we've likely peaked. But if that's the case, then then why not give it a push when a Top 15 player of all time says he wants to play for us.

[bwgood77]

I agree with everything you’ve said here but especially this.

I feel like it took Sarver years to learn that NBA isn’t about flashiness and that “substance” is much more sustainable than “splash”. That’s why when he was owner he reportedly told the Nets that Suns would only trade either the players (Bridges/Crowder/Johnson) or picks (probably same ones traded out now) but not both.

And yeah there’s definitely risk involved. The expectation with this kind of a trade has to be 2 championships. But if the Suns don’t win at least one a championship within the 3 years, this is immediately one of the very worst trades in NBA history and easily by far the worst trade in franchise history.

Bill Simmons said on his podcast that this trade package for Durant has to be 2nd best trade package ever traded for a superstar player when taking into account the players and picks given away. And he had Paul George deal as the highest trade package because of SGA being a star now.

But like I’ve said before, win 2 titles (at least 1 at minimum) with this group then everyone will forget about the picks and players traded away.

Yeah, gotta win at least 2 for it to be worth it. Win one and then fade off would be depressing..hoping for a 3 peat. Then it will definitely be worth it.

Hold on here, it's that a bit hypocritical since your argument against the trade was you want to see good consistent basketball and you're not as concerned with championships.

So let's say they make deep and exciting runs each year but just never actually win it all. Teams good the whole time none of the picks going out really amount to much. Isn't that basically what you said you would be good with it they kept rolling forward with Cam and Bridges?

Like I get if it all goes to **** and we have to watch bad basketball and give up top 5 picks then it's absolutely a failure.

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Why would I be happy to get deep runs every year and never win it all when that is what we were getting before the trade, and then we give up a ton and continue on with the same? I mean I expect they should be able to win it all if they stay healthy and don't decline much the next few years with age. I just don't know if they can all stay healthy, which is what I where I think most of the risk lies with giving up so much.

Deep and exciting runs when you gave up young players and so many picks into the future? No, it obviously wouldn't be worth it. That's the point. Unless you are talking about the next 20 years. I'm excited to watch the new team but they definitely need to be winning some championships...isn't that the point? If you are trading 4 picks that could draft players that are cornerstones from 2025-2037 along with two players would could be core pieces for the next decade you need to be winning titles not going far.

I certainly value picks more than you knowing you can get great players anywhere, as you see with Giannis, taken in the teens, Booker, Joker taken really late, Siakam, etc.

My whole point revolved around watching a competitive team that has home grown players to root for that you watch grow with the tea and have a consistent competitive team that contends. I liked where we were at and felt we were in a good position for yearss.

The new team will be exciting, but I think if they don't win titles in there years together they will call it a failure. They'd probably agree.

[bwgood77]

I agree with everything you’ve said here but especially this.

I feel like it took Sarver years to learn that NBA isn’t about flashiness and that “substance” is much more sustainable than “splash”. That’s why when he was owner he reportedly told the Nets that Suns would only trade either the players (Bridges/Crowder/Johnson) or picks (probably same ones traded out now) but not both.

And yeah there’s definitely risk involved. The expectation with this kind of a trade has to be 2 championships. But if the Suns don’t win at least one a championship within the 3 years, this is immediately one of the very worst trades in NBA history and easily by far the worst trade in franchise history.

Bill Simmons said on his podcast that this trade package for Durant has to be 2nd best trade package ever traded for a superstar player when taking into account the players and picks given away. And he had Paul George deal as the highest trade package because of SGA being a star now.

But like I’ve said before, win 2 titles (at least 1 at minimum) with this group then everyone will forget about the picks and players traded away.

Yeah, gotta win at least 2 for it to be worth it. Win one and then fade off would be depressing..hoping for a 3 peat. Then it will definitely be worth it.

Are you SERIOUSLY saying that even winning "only" one championship you would consider this trade a failure?

After winning a championship teams usually stay strong for a good amount of years. Book and Ayton will be in his prime in the future.

I don't know that I would use the word failure, because that's what they were going for, but I would have kept the core together who would have had a solid chance for years. But that after that championship, if there were no more, I'd prefer to have had the younger players, picks, Jae assets, than have a trophy at the Suns FO and a couple of old stars, a stripped young core and few picks. I liked where we were set for the next decade.

It's just a preference to have a long term sustainable team. I definitely had a lot better feeling about how this team would have been, even this year though, particularly given Bridges' improvements...and them learning from playoff failures after their first ever visits to the playoffs. I never thought a championship was completely out of the cards anyway and that we were set up for a decade.

[bwgood77]

so while we're continuing to talk about the KD trade (since that's all we can do now while waiting for him to suit up), I was circling back to the conversation about the most high profile players to have been traded midseason. People have talked about Pau and Drexler, but I remembered now that Dominique Wilkins was also traded midseason from the Hawks to the Clippers in the 90s, and when you look at that trade again, there are actually quite a few parallels.

- both KD and Nique were in their mid-30s
- both had recently recovered from achilles injuries
- both had returned from said surgeries to perform very well
- both were traded from good teams at the time
- both trades featured "lesser" talent going back (Danny Manning to the Hawks in Nique's case)

I remember watching Nique on the Clippers after the trade as a kid and he looked very good, and it was a big deal for the Clippers at the time back when they were still the laughingstock of the NBA. Unfortunately for LA, Nique only lasted until the offseason and then went to Boston and then was basically done 2 years later. Hope we get a MUCH different ending!

I think of the Shaq trade...huge name, top player of all time, 35, for Marion, who was 29. The only thing was, Marion fit our team and style better, was 6 years younger and was actually putting up better #s. KD is way better now than Shaq was, but is injured over half the time the last few years and we gave up far more in getting him...2 starter quality players...one probable future all star or at least one of best two way players and top wing defenders and all the unprotected picks.

Man Durant is getting heavily underrated now. I thought at first you meant Shaq when he joined the Heat but man you’re talking about Shaq in Phoenix Durant was putting MVP numbers 30,7,5 before his injury. He was a positive in all advanced stats on both he defensive and offensive end. This ain’t Phoenix Shaq who was already a shell of himself by the time he left Miami.

The Durant underrating is wild. The Nets big 3 were absolutely dominant when they played together and were 13-3 in the games where all 3 were available. It’s not Durant’s fault Kyrie is a selfish nutcase and Harden is a quitter bitch at the first sign of adversity. If those 3 had played out their contracts they’d have a championship. And I still think Durant has one more championship in him and unless you think that Paul, Booker and Ayton will turn into me first nut jobs, the Suns are in the best position to win a chip they’ll be in for a long time.

I guess you missed the part where I said KD is way better now. I know KD is having a monster season. The parallel was more in the fact of breaking apart a team that was already a contender for a big name. I do think this trade makes the Suns better though whereas I didn't feel that way with that one. But the prmary difference on the other side is, we only gave up one 29 year old player then...this time we gave up two very good 26 year old players, another player who netted 5 2nd round picks, 4 unprotected 1sts, and a swap.

That trade came to mind only because it's another trade where the Suns were excited to get the big name and probably gave up too much for what they were getting (KD would be worth that much if 28 and not extremely injury prone).

The Barkley trade is probably a better example, and KD is better than Barkley too even though Barkley was a top 5 player then and MVP in his first PHX year.

But even then, Barkley was only 29, and the Suns gave up far less. No picks....and really only one good player...Hornacek and two decent players...but names you probably wouldn't remember (Tim Perry and Andrew Lang)....he didn't bring a title. We did get to the finals his first year but never got to the 2nd round after that. Prior to his arrival we made the WCF twice...so we really didn't get any better, winnning the same # of games in the 4 years with Barkley as the 4 years before and making the WCF one time less.

[garrick]

Yeah, gotta win at least 2 for it to be worth it. Win one and then fade off would be depressing..hoping for a 3 peat. Then it will definitely be worth it.

Are you SERIOUSLY saying that even winning "only" one championship you would consider this trade a failure?

After winning a championship teams usually stay strong for a good amount of years. Book and Ayton will be in his prime in the future.

I don't know that I would use the word failure, because that's what they were going for, but I would have kept the core together who would have had a solid chance for years. But that after that championship, if there were no more, I'd prefer to have had the younger players, picks, Jae assets, than have a trophy at the Suns FO and a couple of old stars, a stripped young core and few picks. I liked where we were set for the next decade.

It's just a preference to have a long term sustainable team. I definitely had a lot better feeling about how this team would have been, even this year though, particularly given Bridges' improvements...and them learning from playoff failures after their first ever visits to the playoffs. I never thought a championship was completely out of the cards anyway and that we were set up for a decade.

I think this year more than ever the west is wide open and no team is a lock to come out of the west not even the top seeded Nuggets.

Dallas might have our number but besides them and maybe the Clippers I think the rest of the team we would have beat them without KD.

[Frank Lee]

Here you go Week … appears you might need a closer look

[bwgood77]

I look at it like this, if it's all about a title then we're arguably in a better position to win it with KD than without. If we don't win it, then we're right where we were pre-trade...still no championship.

Maybe I'm just looking at things differently now but failure is such a black and white thing and rarely are things black and white. I mean, the fact that this franchise has been in existence for 55 year without a title, does it make it a failure of a team?

Not necessarily, because with the KD trade, our window is shorter. We may have a better chance to win a ring but we also have less of a contending window to do it now. And that’s a fact because of the age difference between Bridges and Johnson. Also Bridges this season finally took on more a role in being a scorer and who knows, even despite being 26, how much more he could’ve developed in that role.

Of course pre-trade, the Suns were good enough to make it to the Finals and come 2 games shy of winning a ring. Now with the addition of KD and all, the expectation should be to again make the finals and win those 2 additional games that were needed.

If Suns never made the KD trade, then you have a nucleus of Ayton/Booker/Bridges/Johnson all in the same age range and perhaps one of the non-Booker players takes a next step to become a star player alongside him as well. If not, well Suns have every draft pick to their name so perhaps they draft a player who develops into the star. Or maybe save the same trade package for a player that’s not 35 yrs old. Or maybe they make a smaller trade (my preference) similar to the one the Lakers made bringing in 2-3 very solid starters all for the price of one protected 1st rd pick establish an all around team and try to make a run that way.

Of course these are all hypotheticals just like KD staying healthy and averaging better stats than 26 pts, 6 assists, 5 turnovers, 4 fouls on better than 38% shooting from the field and 33% from 3 can be a hypothetical too. Those are his stats from last year’s playoffs with Nets.

Yes you're right, the window might be shorter but it's also more open than ever? I don't know how to quantify that for you but all I can say is that, we're trying and this is our biggest push for a title than in the last two decades. I don't have an issue with that rationale.

And yes, we could've kept everything and it would be fun with the young guys and still end up with nothing. I was comfortable with that approach but also fully realised that it would likely be no better than the last two years' of payoff/Finals runs. So given that, I would've be fine with just moving ahead with the young guys, play fun basketball but deep down I know we've likely peaked. But if that's the case, then then why not give it a push when a Top 15 player of all time says he wants to play for us.

What makes you think the young team peaked? Two years ago in the finals that was the first ever time those 24 year olds and 22 year old Ayton made the playoffs.

Those guys were still improving. Now I know Paul was a big factor in it all, but much of the summer rationale for getting KD was to do so while Paul was still here.

That's the main argument...if Paul actually still has 2-3 years in the tank, the move makes more sense. At the beginning of the season he looked pretty done, but has looked better lately.

[bwgood77]

Are you SERIOUSLY saying that even winning "only" one championship you would consider this trade a failure?

After winning a championship teams usually stay strong for a good amount of years. Book and Ayton will be in his prime in the future.

I don't know that I would use the word failure, because that's what they were going for, but I would have kept the core together who would have had a solid chance for years. But that after that championship, if there were no more, I'd prefer to have had the younger players, picks, Jae assets, than have a trophy at the Suns FO and a couple of old stars, a stripped young core and few picks. I liked where we were set for the next decade.

It's just a preference to have a long term sustainable team. I definitely had a lot better feeling about how this team would have been, even this year though, particularly given Bridges' improvements...and them learning from playoff failures after their first ever visits to the playoffs. I never thought a championship was completely out of the cards anyway and that we were set up for a decade.

I think this year more than ever the west is wide open and no team is a lock to come out of the west not even the top seeded Nuggets.

Dallas might have our number but besides them and maybe the Clippers I think the rest of the team we would have beat them without KD.

Yeah, I actually had a good feeling about what the team would look like when they were healthy pre trade and kind of had a sneaky suspicion the year everyone writes them off they surprise after the opposite. Bridges had stepped up and we had also seen great games from Okogie and Shamet. I like Payne better than most. Denver didn't scare me, nor did Memphis or even Boston and Milwaukee.

Especially without the pressure of being a favorite.

Now we must win every year and will be viewed that we should...and we should, if healthy..I mean we paid the price in assets to buy some titles. so yeah, they better come through.

It will be exciting to see for the next few years.

[lilfishi22]

Not necessarily, because with the KD trade, our window is shorter. We may have a better chance to win a ring but we also have less of a contending window to do it now. And that’s a fact because of the age difference between Bridges and Johnson. Also Bridges this season finally took on more a role in being a scorer and who knows, even despite being 26, how much more he could’ve developed in that role.

Of course pre-trade, the Suns were good enough to make it to the Finals and come 2 games shy of winning a ring. Now with the addition of KD and all, the expectation should be to again make the finals and win those 2 additional games that were needed.

If Suns never made the KD trade, then you have a nucleus of Ayton/Booker/Bridges/Johnson all in the same age range and perhaps one of the non-Booker players takes a next step to become a star player alongside him as well. If not, well Suns have every draft pick to their name so perhaps they draft a player who develops into the star. Or maybe save the same trade package for a player that’s not 35 yrs old. Or maybe they make a smaller trade (my preference) similar to the one the Lakers made bringing in 2-3 very solid starters all for the price of one protected 1st rd pick establish an all around team and try to make a run that way.

Of course these are all hypotheticals just like KD staying healthy and averaging better stats than 26 pts, 6 assists, 5 turnovers, 4 fouls on better than 38% shooting from the field and 33% from 3 can be a hypothetical too. Those are his stats from last year’s playoffs with Nets.

Yes you're right, the window might be shorter but it's also more open than ever? I don't know how to quantify that for you but all I can say is that, we're trying and this is our biggest push for a title than in the last two decades. I don't have an issue with that rationale.

And yes, we could've kept everything and it would be fun with the young guys and still end up with nothing. I was comfortable with that approach but also fully realised that it would likely be no better than the last two years' of payoff/Finals runs. So given that, I would've be fine with just moving ahead with the young guys, play fun basketball but deep down I know we've likely peaked. But if that's the case, then then why not give it a push when a Top 15 player of all time says he wants to play for us.

What makes you think the young team peaked? Two years ago in the finals that was the first ever time those 24 year olds and 22 year old Ayton made the playoffs.

Those guys were still improving. Now I know Paul was a big factor in it all, but much of the summer rationale for getting KD was to do so while Paul was still here.

That's the main argument...if Paul actually still has 2-3 years in the tank, the move makes more sense. At the beginning of the season he looked pretty done, but has looked better lately.

I didn't say our players have peaked. They can still get better as we've seen from Mikal over the past two months. What I said was that this team with those 4 players (DA/Book/Mikal/Cam) likely have peaked already. There were circumstances that allowed us to get all the way to the Finals and the following year, we had trouble getting past the 2nd round. I just didn't see a likely path to add real talent with that core to get us past those first couple of rounds and further. We will have 3 guys on their 2nd contract (combined around $70m) and a 4th on his veteran supermax contract(starting at $50m). Adding talent via cap space was always going to be something we'd struggle with going forward.