2014 Draft Thread

[RunDogGun]

Now instead of trying to attack my character, you could just try to provide us with actual evidence.

Attack your character? You jump on people all the time for not prefacing their "opinion", I call you out on it AND your sweeping generalization that people who disagree with you are apparently not competitive and its trying to attack your character?

Again, you dont subject yourself to the same standards you hold others to. It makes it really hard to have these debates in good faith when pull this stuff.

We disagree on this, just as we have on many topics, but your arbitrary dismissal of anything that contradicts your stance, only to turn and then mock those who disagree for having shown "nothing"... not simply that you disagree with their interpretation, no instead its "nothing", and frequently with an insult piled on.

I disagree with your interpretations. I understand the stance your taking, but there are far too many odd maneuverings on that Golden State roster, all leading to a profoundly fortunate outcome for the franchise for me to dismiss it as mere coincidence. If you disagree with that... fine. But to continue to say its all "nothing", simply because you say so, is a laughable hypocrisy.

I haven't attacked you in this back and forth. I pointed out the we have been through this already, and everyone of your charges has been vetted. None of which has yielded any evidence to support your claim. I haven't tried to bring up anything else. I didn't bring up matters in which you thought or said one thing, was rude about it, and then proven to be wrong about it. But I could if you feel that that way of discussing this proves anything.

So again, you can say all you want, but you have zero proof to support your claim.

[phrazbit]

IMO LeBron is absolutely a ring chaser, its the reason went to Miami in the first place. But I think its waaaaaaaaaaay more likely he would go back to Cleveland with their young roster and familiar surroundings (along with the chance at character redemption) than him coming here.

[phrazbit]

Now instead of trying to attack my character, you could just try to provide us with actual evidence.

Attack your character? You jump on people all the time for not prefacing their "opinion", I call you out on it AND your sweeping generalization that people who disagree with you are apparently not competitive and its trying to attack your character?

Again, you dont subject yourself to the same standards you hold others to. It makes it really hard to have these debates in good faith when pull this stuff.

We disagree on this, just as we have on many topics, but your arbitrary dismissal of anything that contradicts your stance, only to turn and then mock those who disagree for having shown "nothing"... not simply that you disagree with their interpretation, no instead its "nothing", and frequently with an insult piled on.

I disagree with your interpretations. I understand the stance your taking, but there are far too many odd maneuverings on that Golden State roster, all leading to a profoundly fortunate outcome for the franchise for me to dismiss it as mere coincidence. If you disagree with that... fine. But to continue to say its all "nothing", simply because you say so, is a laughable hypocrisy.

I haven't attacked you in this back and forth. I pointed out the we have been through this already, and everyone of your charges has been vetted. None of which has yielded any evidence to support your claim. I haven't tried to bring up anything else. I didn't bring up matters in which you thought or said one thing, was rude about it, and then proven to be wrong about it. But I could if you feel that that way of discussing this proves anything.

You claimed I attacked you... for insisting, as you do to others, to not present your opinion as fact and repeating your own characterization that those who disagree with you are apparently not competitive. Again, if thats an "attack" then you need to hold yourself to the same standard you hold others to.

So again, you can say all you want, but you have zero proof to support your claim.

In your opinion.

[RunDogGun]

Cool dude!

You kept bringing up stuff you say I always do, as if it has anything to do with the argument. I chose not to go there (at least this time) and I continue to chose not to go there. So instead of attacking the argument, you thought you would just rip me and what you say are my actions, to do what?

I am going off the facts of the case. I've done all the research on this. You have no proof that GS took on a strategy to lose games on purpose. There is no proof that Jackson's choices show any level of dishonesty.

You kept trying to bring up minutes and DNPs, as evidence, yet those have already been vetted. Minutes from so called "scrubs" proved that with greater minutes to those players yielded decent results. You can chose to ignore those facts, but I have already provided you with those facts. Again, the DNPs came down to very few games, six at the most with Nate, and even less with other healthy players.

So you can claim that it is my opinion that there is no evidence to support your claim, but you have yet to prove that wrong. If you have proof that Jackson purposely was losing games, the GM purposely was losing games, or even the doctors doing something dishonest, provided it please. So provide the evidence if you have it. It would solve all this back and forth.

[phrazbit]

Cool dude!

You kept bringing up stuff you say I always do, as if it has anything to do with the argument. I chose not to go there (at least this time) and I continue to chose not to go there. So instead of attacking the argument, you thought you would just rip me and what you say are my actions, to do what?

I am going off the facts of the case. I've done all the research on this. You have no proof that GS took on a strategy to lose games on purpose. There is no proof that Jackson's choices show any level of dishonesty.

You kept trying to bring up minutes and DNPs, as evidence, yet those have already been vetted. Minutes from so called "scrubs" proved that with greater minutes to those players yielded decent results. You can chose to ignore those facts, but I have already provided you with those facts. Again, the DNPs came down to very few games, six at the most with Nate, and even less with other healthy players.

So you can claim that it is my opinion that there is no evidence to support your claim, but you have yet to prove that wrong. If you have proof that Jackson purposely was losing games, the GM purposely was losing games, or even the doctors doing something dishonest, provided it please. So provide the evidence if you have it. It would solve all this back and forth.

Whatever man. They've been vetted and you've applied YOUR interpretation. I disagree with your interpretation, just like you disagree with mine. But you cant let it settle there, rather any opposing interpretation is deemed entirely invalid.

If your going to continue to dismiss all opposing interpretations as "nothing" in comparison to your own interpretation then there is nothing left to argue about but the methodology you're applying to the argument.

I would be fine with agreeing to disagree but when you dismiss the opposing view as non-existent then you cannot reach that limited measure of agreement.

You dont think Golden State tanked, I do. I will leave it at that.

[thamadkant]

And I also think Warriors tanked...
And I don't blame them...

So did the Spurs to get Duncan...


Look...
In a perfect fair sports business world, teams have integrity.
League operators do not impact game results etc.
Everything is fair... Teams let pieces fall as nature allow them.

But sadly it's not...
Teams tank because there are benefits, it's encouraged by the system... Even if it's a lottery.


Saying NO team tanks because their is no flat out evidence is like saying referees and league officiating is 100% fair and of the highest integrity. Some will say it's not the same, but it is.

Sports business is about the league maximising profit as well as putting a top notch competition, by making games new entertaining (close games) fans pay more attention, fans feel more involved etc.
I want to believe the league is not rigged and i do... But I don't believe its 100% "clean".

From team perspective... Star players bring in the wins, the fans, the merchandise, the tv contracts, the exposure...
Some GMs use it as a tactic to get advantage or hope to anyways, over other teams.
Players never tank, this I 100% believe... But GMs do not only care about team success on the court, but they also end up caring about bringing in money and exposure to the franchise. They run and manage the team's on court personnel but they answer to the owners and board members who care about financial side of the franchise.

In short... where there's money to be made, there is a systematic method employed by stake holders to take advantage of opportunities to get ahead.
Sure profit is shared around the NBA, but a star studded team will always be favored business wise and FOs of these franchises have the most power.

And darn it, I want the Suns to have a turn at the very top, with or without help from NBA.


And if someone request flat out evidence of guilt.. I reply back and request evidence of innocence.

Speculations and opinions are what keeps these boards flowing anyways

[King4Day]

You look at the players coming out in this draft, and you look at the teams that may end up with the high pick like Utah and Philadelphia and Toronto, teams that have been on the bottom for so long. Or have never been at the top, you can't blame the tank idea. Especially this year

[RunDogGun]

You look at the players coming out in this draft, and you look at the teams that may end up with the high pick like Utah and Philadelphia and Toronto, teams that have been on the bottom for so long. Or have never been at the top, you can't blame the tank idea. Especially this year

And you can't simply apply a dishonest tactic to teams that are just bad.

[RunDogGun]

And I also think Warriors tanked...
And I don't blame them...

So did the Spurs to get Duncan...


Look...
In a perfect fair sports business world, teams have integrity.
League operators do not impact game results etc.
Everything is fair... Teams let pieces fall as nature allow them.

But sadly it's not...
Teams tank because there are benefits, it's encouraged by the system... Even if it's a lottery.


Saying NO team tanks because their is no flat out evidence is like saying referees and league officiating is 100% fair and of the highest integrity. Some will say it's not the same, but it is.

Sports business is about the league maximising profit as well as putting a top notch competition, by making games new entertaining (close games) fans pay more attention, fans feel more involved etc.
I want to believe the league is not rigged and i do... But I don't believe its 100% "clean".

From team perspective... Star players bring in the wins, the fans, the merchandise, the tv contracts, the exposure...
Some GMs use it as a tactic to get advantage or hope to anyways, over other teams.
Players never tank, this I 100% believe... But GMs do not only care about team success on the court, but they also end up caring about bringing in money and exposure to the franchise. They run and manage the team's on court personnel but they answer to the owners and board members who care about financial side of the franchise.

In short... where there's money to be made, there is a systematic method employed by stake holders to take advantage of opportunities to get ahead.
Sure profit is shared around the NBA, but a star studded team will always be favored business wise and FOs of these franchises have the most power.

And darn it, I want the Suns to have a turn at the very top, with or without help from NBA.


And if someone request flat out evidence of guilt.. I reply back and request evidence of innocence.

Speculations and opinions are what keeps these boards flowing anyways

You constantly contradict yourself in this....whatever this was. I have given evidence explaining every one of Praz's charges. I went into great detail, even going down to single games.

In GS's example, injuries to key players and reserves explains so much. I'm not going to go through it all again, especially because Praz, will just dismiss those facts, like he did above. I will find the previous debate and post a link to it. Again, throughout all of it, there was no evidence of anyone doing anything dishonest to lead one to believe that the team, coach, players, or med staff was purposely trying to undermine the integrity of the league.

So now it's you turn, bring up your evidence, and I will go through it just like I did Praz's.

[RunDogGun]

The Spurs had the fourth worst record. They would have had to know that Stern would give them the number one pick even though they had the fourth worst record. Moreover, there is no proof that Robinson was 100% healthy the whole season including the six games he played.

Throughout all of this back and forth, at no time have we had any player, coach, or gm come forward and say that they purposely tried to be dishonest. If it is so widespread like so many say, then it shouldn't be hard to find an actual person to back that thought.

As for your ref thing, there was a ref, who came forward and talked about the bias, and that ref said he used that bias to gamble. Now you can chose to believe Tim, or not, but one has come forward, unlike your tanking strategy.

[King4Day]

You look at the players coming out in this draft, and you look at the teams that may end up with the high pick like Utah and Philadelphia and Toronto, teams that have been on the bottom for so long. Or have never been at the top, you can't blame the tank idea. Especially this year

And you can't simply apply a dishonest tactic to teams that are just bad.

When I say tank, I am always referring to management. Never the players (so that's clear).

With guys like Durant and LeBron in the league, it's necessary to have a star, or else there's little chance to dethrone them.

The reason the Pacers are in the running is because of George, their great size, and depth.

As nice as it is to see Morris and Bledsoe having big starts, these two are not going to lead us to a title. We need this coming draft to steer the franchise in the right direction long term.

[RunDogGun]

You look at the players coming out in this draft, and you look at the teams that may end up with the high pick like Utah and Philadelphia and Toronto, teams that have been on the bottom for so long. Or have never been at the top, you can't blame the tank idea. Especially this year

And you can't simply apply a dishonest tactic to teams that are just bad.

When I say tank, I am always referring to management. Never the players (so that's clear).

With guys like Durant and LeBron in the league, it's necessary to have a star, or else there's little chance to dethrone them.

The reason the Pacers are in the running is because of George, their great size, and depth.

As nice as it is to see Morris and Bledsoe having big starts, these two are not going to lead us to a title. We need this coming draft to steer the franchise in the right direction long term.

Did we really think we were winning a title this season? It's possible, but many don't even think we will make the playoffs. Sometimes stars are born when they are given a chance to prove themselves. George is a great example of this. He was picked tenth overall.

This management tank bs has no merit either, because often they also get players late in drafts that do quite well and would be counter productive to the "plan" of purposely losing and creating losing cultures, just to maybe get the next MJ. Some teams are just bad. They may find good college players that their games don't translate to the NBA.

People need to stop equating bad or rebuilding with a dishonest strategy supposedly employed to undermine the integrity of the league, to have a possible chance at a franchise player, who may just leave the team, because the culture has no winning foundation.

[jcsunsfan]

IMO LeBron is absolutely a ring chaser, its the reason went to Miami in the first place. But I think its waaaaaaaaaaay more likely he would go back to Cleveland with their young roster and familiar surroundings (along with the chance at character redemption) than him coming here.

I agree with this but it does not mean there is no chance or the Suns should not try. They could make a very good case in a sales pitch. The reason that Colangelo signed so many top free agent is that he never sold himself, his city, or his team short. He believed players would want to come here given the facts. I

Anything less is a losers mentality.

[RunDogGun]

IMO LeBron is absolutely a ring chaser, its the reason went to Miami in the first place. But I think its waaaaaaaaaaay more likely he would go back to Cleveland with their young roster and familiar surroundings (along with the chance at character redemption) than him coming here.

I agree with this but it does not mean there is no chance or the Suns should not try. They could make a very good case in a sales pitch. The reason that Colangelo signed so many top free agent is that he never sold himself, his city, or his team short. He believed players would want to come here given the facts. I

Anything less is a losers mentality.

"So many top free agents"? McDyss? Chambers? Maybe Googs? I don't know many more that were "top" FAs. He did sign many decent FAs, and some on a low first year price tag, but he also signed some crap FAs or did S&T ones like Longley.

[BurningHeart]

As I've said countless other times, if you really think Ryan McDonough is as good as you think he is, you'd trust him to find a great player for us regardless of where we end up selecting in June.

[Safety Pickle]

Remember when this was a draft thread, and not a thread about arguing semantics?

[RunDogGun]

Remember when this was a draft thread, and not a thread about arguing semantics?

I might be wrong, but the thread title is called "Tankapalooza", is it not?

And we were discussing drafting, and tactics.

I think Dez has been the closest at picking the number one/two picks, but unless we win one of the top three spots, it won't matter to us. If we keep things up, our pick will most likely be ninth or higher.

[BurningHeart]

Remember when this was a draft thread, and not a thread about arguing semantics?

If you like your draft thread, you can keep your draft thread. Period.

[lilfishi22]

Remember when this was a draft thread, and not a thread about arguing semantics?

Pepperidge Farm remembers

[bigfoot]

Per Ryan McDonough

it's an insult to myself and my staff to think we can't [have success in the draft] without a top 5 pick, that we can't have success outside of the lottery.

http://arizonasports.com/41/1677168/AN-INSULT

THIS!