Suns Offseason Thread V: I Am My Brother's Kieffer

[batsmasher]

Anything is better than talking about the Morrii for a second longer.

[Cutter]

You can if you realize that he still made up those numbers. Lol

So ESPN Hollinger, Bball Reference and Nylon Calculus are suddenly not reputable sources? Come on now. I've done my homework

OK. So. here. we. go.

I'll be honest, I was being nice, because frankly I like the Suns, and the mods here are awesome, but a few of my least favorite things in debating players are:
1. Use of deragatory terms in general (chucker, ballhog, defensive sieve, etc).
2. Misuse of stats.
3. Stating incorrect stats.
4. Overuse of emoticons that seem to be negative (the crazy one, etc).

And the fact that 2 people and-1d a post that was a lie is amazing to me and shows that people really hate to think for themselves or research. The dumbing down of humanity I suppose.

Along with some others. You've pretty clearly done at least 3 of the 4 here. So the gloves shall be dropped:

Bondom here is my take on this debate. Took a while to complete this post. I think everything I'm going to say is reasonable and empirically backed .

Kobe and Melo are more naturally gifted scorers imo.
OK. You're opinion and has no relation to anything here.

Westbrook was an elite defensive prospect coming out of UCLA but is actually below average in this department now. His overbearing freak athleticism ,hyperactivity and flair has gotten him an undeserving reputation as a dynamic ballhawk.(He ranked 28th out 81 PGs with a -.71 DRPM) He has a tendency to sag off his man, prematurely jump passing lane while gambling without regard to risk resulting in him getting burnt off the ball by perimeter shooters.

Again, many words here, and him as a college prospect again not relevant. He was a 2 in college having been drafted to play a new position. As well, for his career he still shows as a roughly neutral defender using PI RAPM.His defense almost makes him a net negative but he manages to just barely break even by posting a .5 NetRtg, Well now we've gone from a poorly used stat to a wrong one. He was a +6.6, which isn't even in the neighborhood of .5

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/westbru01/on-off/2015/

I won't go as far to say that he purposefully steal rebounds from his bigs but Brook's offense required him to crash the boards,dictate the tempo and push the break since OKC 's offense relied on getting buckets off transitions from stops and generating new possessions rather than traditional half court playsets. I'm sure he could have trusted at least one of his bigs to execute an outlet pass but instead it seems almost as if he competes with them in order to take matters into his own hands. But Westbrook is capable of dismantling ICE defenses when operating the P&R(that Indiana game was epic). Again, you're assuming bigs can pass. Those bigs were Ibaka (maybe he could), Collison (watched him for years, and no), Perkins (lol), and Adams(nope again). So again, not empirically backed.

Westbrook had an astronomical usage rate last season especially when he was riding solo and he was a half a percentage point from setting the historic all-time mark. He has spotty shot selection an has propensity to pull up for a J at the elbow or above the break where he is the least effective and most prone to brick.
Partially true. I admit his selection is imperfect, though he hits that shot at a pretty good rate.

PER is not the perfect metric to quantify his individual efficiency either since it tends to reward high volume shooting. And no Westbrook's TS% was actually well below the league average ranking at 172nd despite getting to charity stripe at a solid rate ( when calibrated to league average he is -.4 while Harden was at +7.1!) to go along with his poor eFG% , 3PT%(less than 30% from deep).

Again, misuse of stats. Harden has nothing to do with this, what does is him vs. who he's on court with. These guys on OKC had a better TS than Russ:
KD (played 20 some games and got his shots fine)
Ibaka (not a guy who can handle high usage)
Kanter (got his plenty and only there about 30 games)
Morrow (bench guy who played fewer minutes w/ Russ and got his as well when he played with Russ, see the stats I posted earlier)

Other than that, he was passing to Perk, Adams, Waiters. No, that's not a good option offensively. As well, funny you dismiss PER which actually rates him well, but keep anything slightly negative

Players in a Westbrook only lineup score 0.076 points per possession worse than they would have when KD is also on the floor so Russ has to be kept on leash in order to set up his teammates better. But since OKC posted a higher ORtg with just Brodie compared to just KD one can also argue that Westbrook has more of a killer instinct to put the team on his back although the end result wasn't a winning product.

OK, multiple things wrong. First, you're ripping his usage last season, when KD didn't play, then using stats for KD. So that's having it both ways, and I showed in this thread his effect on the PPS of every other player. Yes, they're massively better with Russ. And to add, I never once said he's better than KD, he's not. As for winning product, again wrong. They went 40-27 with Russ. 5-10 without. So had he played the entire season at that percentage they'd have won 49 games. That's a winning product last I checked.


Of course you need to factor in the analysis of the efficiency vs usage opportunity cost tradeoff and different metrics weight them differently. Westbrook grades out better in box-score based metrics. Adjusted RPM is slightly better since it doesn't rely on average estimates of differing variables factors in the the quality of opposition strength and lineups. But although it quantifies a player's net contributions per 100 defensive/offensive possessions when they are on the floor it doesn't completely capture the value a player is or isn't bringing (by virtue of addition by subtraction)to his team when off the court.

And finally, APM. So a few sources here:

RPM, 6th in the league
http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/RPM


Regular old APM, 6th offensively

http://www.gotbuckets.com/2015-ffapm-offense/

Defense again wasn't good this year, but FWIW, if its your stat, he rated better than Curry.

Try BPM:
1st overall

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2015_leaders.html?lid=header_leaders

Oh, and finally PI RAPM, multi year:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/17dNdxpgNHvOnMwnTmw65x5exfmQaA0C6T1w7KTmCiC0/edit?pli=1#gid=0

Rating 11th overall, with some lower minute/older guys ahead who are plus/minus darlings (Manu, Korver, Iggy), and guys who are just in a perfect spot where the team built around them is such an ideal situation (Green).



So I'll end it there. You've managed to make up numbers and misuse them. I'll note in the future not to bother with you as the most useless debate is one where the other side is willing to insult and lie. So have a good one, I've honestly debated Russ's faults many times, with many people, and don't see him as perfect. But in all those debates I've never once had someone make stuff up to try to win a debate, and even have others then fall into agreement with them for that. Wow.

Edit: So with this said, I'm out. You all have a wonderful season, but jeez at least try to be honest. I assume you somehow managed to not watch much OKC despite them being on TV every other day, either that or you just don't know about most every player on the team outside Durant.

No one really gives a crap what you like or don't like you troll. You come on here like your something special and somehow have this amazing insight in basketball and Russell Westbrook. People want to use terms like chucker and ball hog to describe Westbrook thats their right to do so because these are descriptive terms that accurately describe him. You're one of the worst trolls to come on this board in a while, and the fact that you are a mod makes it even worse.

Westbrook is one of the highest volume shooters in the NBA over the last three years. Couple that with his mediocre to low efficiency shooting and you have the text book example of a chucker. No one said he was bad on defense, or that he isn't a great athlete. The original comments were that he is a high volume, marginal to low efficiency shooter who gets to the line a lot. There nothing wrong win people saying this because it's true.

[bwgood77]

No one really gives a crap what you like or don't like you troll. You come on here like your something special and somehow have this amazing insight in basketball and Russell Westbrook. People want to use terms like chucker and ball hog to describe Westbrook thats their right to do so because these are descriptive terms that accurately describe him. You're one of the worst trolls to come on this board in a while, and the fact that you are a mod makes it even worse.

Westbrook is one of the highest volume shooters in the NBA over the last three years. Couple that with his mediocre to low efficiency shooting and you have the text book example of a chucker. No one said he was bad on defense, or that he isn't a great athlete. The original comments were that he is a high volume, marginal to low efficiency shooter who gets to the line a lot. There nothing wrong win people saying this because it's true.

There is no need for name calling. He does have good insight into Russell Westbrook, as he is a die hard Thunder fan who watches all their games. He is far from a troll. He actually argues pro-Suns on the trade board and chimes in with solid opinions on the Suns from someone who isn't biased. It's nice to have fans from other teams stop by, especially during this dead time. He didn't come here to start talking about Westbrook. He was talking about our team saying Bledsoe is almost as good as Wall when someone told him Wall would be better for OKC than Westbrook. Some others here thought that was ludicrous too, so a good debate is fine, especially since we are in the dead part of the season.

This was a far more interesting discussion than continuing to talk about the Morris twins....well, anything is, as batsmasher said.

[bondom34]

So ESPN Hollinger, Bball Reference and Nylon Calculus are suddenly not reputable sources? Come on now. I've done my homework

OK. So. here. we. go.

I'll be honest, I was being nice, because frankly I like the Suns, and the mods here are awesome, but a few of my least favorite things in debating players are:
1. Use of deragatory terms in general (chucker, ballhog, defensive sieve, etc).
2. Misuse of stats.
3. Stating incorrect stats.
4. Overuse of emoticons that seem to be negative (the crazy one, etc).

And the fact that 2 people and-1d a post that was a lie is amazing to me and shows that people really hate to think for themselves or research. The dumbing down of humanity I suppose.

Along with some others. You've pretty clearly done at least 3 of the 4 here. So the gloves shall be dropped:

Bondom here is my take on this debate. Took a while to complete this post. I think everything I'm going to say is reasonable and empirically backed .

Kobe and Melo are more naturally gifted scorers imo.
OK. You're opinion and has no relation to anything here.

Westbrook was an elite defensive prospect coming out of UCLA but is actually below average in this department now. His overbearing freak athleticism ,hyperactivity and flair has gotten him an undeserving reputation as a dynamic ballhawk.(He ranked 28th out 81 PGs with a -.71 DRPM) He has a tendency to sag off his man, prematurely jump passing lane while gambling without regard to risk resulting in him getting burnt off the ball by perimeter shooters.

Again, many words here, and him as a college prospect again not relevant. He was a 2 in college having been drafted to play a new position. As well, for his career he still shows as a roughly neutral defender using PI RAPM.His defense almost makes him a net negative but he manages to just barely break even by posting a .5 NetRtg, Well now we've gone from a poorly used stat to a wrong one. He was a +6.6, which isn't even in the neighborhood of .5

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/westbru01/on-off/2015/

I won't go as far to say that he purposefully steal rebounds from his bigs but Brook's offense required him to crash the boards,dictate the tempo and push the break since OKC 's offense relied on getting buckets off transitions from stops and generating new possessions rather than traditional half court playsets. I'm sure he could have trusted at least one of his bigs to execute an outlet pass but instead it seems almost as if he competes with them in order to take matters into his own hands. But Westbrook is capable of dismantling ICE defenses when operating the P&R(that Indiana game was epic). Again, you're assuming bigs can pass. Those bigs were Ibaka (maybe he could), Collison (watched him for years, and no), Perkins (lol), and Adams(nope again). So again, not empirically backed.

Westbrook had an astronomical usage rate last season especially when he was riding solo and he was a half a percentage point from setting the historic all-time mark. He has spotty shot selection an has propensity to pull up for a J at the elbow or above the break where he is the least effective and most prone to brick.
Partially true. I admit his selection is imperfect, though he hits that shot at a pretty good rate.

PER is not the perfect metric to quantify his individual efficiency either since it tends to reward high volume shooting. And no Westbrook's TS% was actually well below the league average ranking at 172nd despite getting to charity stripe at a solid rate ( when calibrated to league average he is -.4 while Harden was at +7.1!) to go along with his poor eFG% , 3PT%(less than 30% from deep).

Again, misuse of stats. Harden has nothing to do with this, what does is him vs. who he's on court with. These guys on OKC had a better TS than Russ:
KD (played 20 some games and got his shots fine)
Ibaka (not a guy who can handle high usage)
Kanter (got his plenty and only there about 30 games)
Morrow (bench guy who played fewer minutes w/ Russ and got his as well when he played with Russ, see the stats I posted earlier)

Other than that, he was passing to Perk, Adams, Waiters. No, that's not a good option offensively. As well, funny you dismiss PER which actually rates him well, but keep anything slightly negative

Players in a Westbrook only lineup score 0.076 points per possession worse than they would have when KD is also on the floor so Russ has to be kept on leash in order to set up his teammates better. But since OKC posted a higher ORtg with just Brodie compared to just KD one can also argue that Westbrook has more of a killer instinct to put the team on his back although the end result wasn't a winning product.

OK, multiple things wrong. First, you're ripping his usage last season, when KD didn't play, then using stats for KD. So that's having it both ways, and I showed in this thread his effect on the PPS of every other player. Yes, they're massively better with Russ. And to add, I never once said he's better than KD, he's not. As for winning product, again wrong. They went 40-27 with Russ. 5-10 without. So had he played the entire season at that percentage they'd have won 49 games. That's a winning product last I checked.


Of course you need to factor in the analysis of the efficiency vs usage opportunity cost tradeoff and different metrics weight them differently. Westbrook grades out better in box-score based metrics. Adjusted RPM is slightly better since it doesn't rely on average estimates of differing variables factors in the the quality of opposition strength and lineups. But although it quantifies a player's net contributions per 100 defensive/offensive possessions when they are on the floor it doesn't completely capture the value a player is or isn't bringing (by virtue of addition by subtraction)to his team when off the court.

And finally, APM. So a few sources here:

RPM, 6th in the league
http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/RPM


Regular old APM, 6th offensively

http://www.gotbuckets.com/2015-ffapm-offense/

Defense again wasn't good this year, but FWIW, if its your stat, he rated better than Curry.

Try BPM:
1st overall

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2015_leaders.html?lid=header_leaders

Oh, and finally PI RAPM, multi year:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/17dNdxpgNHvOnMwnTmw65x5exfmQaA0C6T1w7KTmCiC0/edit?pli=1#gid=0

Rating 11th overall, with some lower minute/older guys ahead who are plus/minus darlings (Manu, Korver, Iggy), and guys who are just in a perfect spot where the team built around them is such an ideal situation (Green).



So I'll end it there. You've managed to make up numbers and misuse them. I'll note in the future not to bother with you as the most useless debate is one where the other side is willing to insult and lie. So have a good one, I've honestly debated Russ's faults many times, with many people, and don't see him as perfect. But in all those debates I've never once had someone make stuff up to try to win a debate, and even have others then fall into agreement with them for that. Wow.

Edit: So with this said, I'm out. You all have a wonderful season, but jeez at least try to be honest. I assume you somehow managed to not watch much OKC despite them being on TV every other day, either that or you just don't know about most every player on the team outside Durant.

No one really gives a crap what you like or don't like you troll. You come on here like your something special and somehow have this amazing insight in basketball and Russell Westbrook. People want to use terms like chucker and ball hog to describe Westbrook thats their right to do so because these are descriptive terms that accurately describe him. You're one of the worst trolls to come on this board in a while, and the fact that you are a mod makes it even worse.

Westbrook is one of the highest volume shooters in the NBA over the last three years. Couple that with his mediocre to low efficiency shooting and you have the text book example of a chucker. No one said he was bad on defense, or that he isn't a great athlete. The original comments were that he is a high volume, marginal to low efficiency shooter who gets to the line a lot. There nothing wrong win people saying this because it's true.

Wow, that was both a personal attack and petty. Yep, I'm done here. He's a high volume, solid efficiency guy and you misspelled your last sentence. Way to end it bud.

[bondom34]

Thanks bwgood, but I think I get a feeling I'm not too welcome. I'm out and see you around man.

[letsgosuns]

I would rather talk about Westbrook than the Morris brothers hahahahaha. Speaking of the Morris brothers, has anyone seen this article yet: http://www.brightsideofthesun.com/2015/8/21/9186673/morris-brothers-timeline-of-self-destruction-part-ii-it-hasnt-been-a

[Cutter]

No one really gives a crap what you like or don't like you troll. You come on here like your something special and somehow have this amazing insight in basketball and Russell Westbrook. People want to use terms like chucker and ball hog to describe Westbrook thats their right to do so because these are descriptive terms that accurately describe him. You're one of the worst trolls to come on this board in a while, and the fact that you are a mod makes it even worse.

Westbrook is one of the highest volume shooters in the NBA over the last three years. Couple that with his mediocre to low efficiency shooting and you have the text book example of a chucker. No one said he was bad on defense, or that he isn't a great athlete. The original comments were that he is a high volume, marginal to low efficiency shooter who gets to the line a lot. There nothing wrong win people saying this because it's true.

There is no need for name calling. He does have good insight into Russell Westbrook, as he is a die hard Thunder fan who watches all their games. He is far from a troll. He actually argues pro-Suns on the trade board and chimes in with solid opinions on the Suns from someone who isn't biased. It's nice to have fans from other teams stop by, especially during this dead time. He didn't come here to start talking about Westbrook. He was talking about our team saying Bledsoe is almost as good as Wall when someone told him Wall would be better for OKC than Westbrook. Some others here thought that was ludicrous too, so a good debate is fine, especially since we are in the dead part of the season.

This was a far more interesting discussion than continuing to talk about the Morris twins....well, anything is, as batsmasher said.

In my book he's a troll and I'll continue to call it as I see it. I don't care if he argues pro-Suns or not.

[Cutter]

OK. So. here. we. go.

I'll be honest, I was being nice, because frankly I like the Suns, and the mods here are awesome, but a few of my least favorite things in debating players are:
1. Use of deragatory terms in general (chucker, ballhog, defensive sieve, etc).
2. Misuse of stats.
3. Stating incorrect stats.
4. Overuse of emoticons that seem to be negative (the crazy one, etc).

And the fact that 2 people and-1d a post that was a lie is amazing to me and shows that people really hate to think for themselves or research. The dumbing down of humanity I suppose.

Along with some others. You've pretty clearly done at least 3 of the 4 here. So the gloves shall be dropped:



And finally, APM. So a few sources here:

RPM, 6th in the league
http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/RPM


Regular old APM, 6th offensively

http://www.gotbuckets.com/2015-ffapm-offense/

Defense again wasn't good this year, but FWIW, if its your stat, he rated better than Curry.

Try BPM:
1st overall

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2015_leaders.html?lid=header_leaders

Oh, and finally PI RAPM, multi year:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/17dNdxpgNHvOnMwnTmw65x5exfmQaA0C6T1w7KTmCiC0/edit?pli=1#gid=0

Rating 11th overall, with some lower minute/older guys ahead who are plus/minus darlings (Manu, Korver, Iggy), and guys who are just in a perfect spot where the team built around them is such an ideal situation (Green).



So I'll end it there. You've managed to make up numbers and misuse them. I'll note in the future not to bother with you as the most useless debate is one where the other side is willing to insult and lie. So have a good one, I've honestly debated Russ's faults many times, with many people, and don't see him as perfect. But in all those debates I've never once had someone make stuff up to try to win a debate, and even have others then fall into agreement with them for that. Wow.

Edit: So with this said, I'm out. You all have a wonderful season, but jeez at least try to be honest. I assume you somehow managed to not watch much OKC despite them being on TV every other day, either that or you just don't know about most every player on the team outside Durant.

No one really gives a crap what you like or don't like you troll. You come on here like your something special and somehow have this amazing insight in basketball and Russell Westbrook. People want to use terms like chucker and ball hog to describe Westbrook thats their right to do so because these are descriptive terms that accurately describe him. You're one of the worst trolls to come on this board in a while, and the fact that you are a mod makes it even worse.

Westbrook is one of the highest volume shooters in the NBA over the last three years. Couple that with his mediocre to low efficiency shooting and you have the text book example of a chucker. No one said he was bad on defense, or that he isn't a great athlete. The original comments were that he is a high volume, marginal to low efficiency shooter who gets to the line a lot. There nothing wrong win people saying this because it's true.

Wow, that was both a personal attack and petty. Yep, I'm done here. He's a high volume, solid efficiency guy and you misspelled your last sentence. Way to end it bud.

Leave troll.

[Cutter]

Thanks bwgood, but I think I get a feeling I'm not too welcome. I'm out and see you around man.

Hey man, I want to extend my apologies for being an ass hole just now. I don't know why, but I just got off the charts irritated reading your posts. You did nothing wrong, I was just in a bad mood.

[batsmasher]

Leave troll.

You forgot the hastag:
#TeamFOE

[bondom34]

Nah, I'm out. Its cool, I'll let you guys go. Wasn't trying to attack anyone, but it got under my skin when stuff was literally made up. See you all.

[Safety Pickle]

No one really gives a crap what you like or don't like you troll. You come on here like your something special and somehow have this amazing insight in basketball and Russell Westbrook. People want to use terms like chucker and ball hog to describe Westbrook thats their right to do so because these are descriptive terms that accurately describe him. You're one of the worst trolls to come on this board in a while, and the fact that you are a mod makes it even worse.

Westbrook is one of the highest volume shooters in the NBA over the last three years. Couple that with his mediocre to low efficiency shooting and you have the text book example of a chucker. No one said he was bad on defense, or that he isn't a great athlete. The original comments were that he is a high volume, marginal to low efficiency shooter who gets to the line a lot. There nothing wrong win people saying this because it's true.

There is no need for name calling. He does have good insight into Russell Westbrook, as he is a die hard Thunder fan who watches all their games. He is far from a troll. He actually argues pro-Suns on the trade board and chimes in with solid opinions on the Suns from someone who isn't biased. It's nice to have fans from other teams stop by, especially during this dead time. He didn't come here to start talking about Westbrook. He was talking about our team saying Bledsoe is almost as good as Wall when someone told him Wall would be better for OKC than Westbrook. Some others here thought that was ludicrous too, so a good debate is fine, especially since we are in the dead part of the season.

This was a far more interesting discussion than continuing to talk about the Morris twins....well, anything is, as batsmasher said.

In my book he's a troll and I'll continue to call it as I see it. I don't care if he argues pro-Suns or not.

I'm not sure if you know what a troll is, but it's generally not someone who backs up his arguments using stats

[bwgood77]

In my book he's a troll and I'll continue to call it as I see it. I don't care if he argues pro-Suns or not.

Well don't personally attack people. It's against forum rules, and I'm here to make sure people follow them.

[JohnWall2]

Nah, I'm out. Its cool, I'll let you guys go. Wasn't trying to attack anyone, but it got under my skin when stuff was literally made up. See you all.

Sorry man, not all of us have the same opinion as that guy who called you out. Definitely aren't anything close to a troll. You've welcomed me in the past on your teams board being I'm a New Zealander so like to talk about Steve Adams etc. Pity we couldn't do the same here.

[Cutter]

In my book he's a troll and I'll continue to call it as I see it. I don't care if he argues pro-Suns or not.

Well don't personally attack people. It's against forum rules, and I'm here to make sure people follow them.

I agree. I crossed the line, but then I did apologize to Bondman. However, I am wondering why you didn't step in to address his personal attacks on saintescation and others on this board? In one of his posts Bondman said a post he disagreed with was a "flat out lie", basically calling saintescation a liar. He then immediately referred to the two people who And1 the post as "not being able to think for themselves". That fact that he was ratcheting up the rhetoric and then calling people a liar was what set me off. I over responded then apologized. You tell me not to attack personally, butwhy didn't you call out another mod for his posts on this forum?

[bwgood77]

In my book he's a troll and I'll continue to call it as I see it. I don't care if he argues pro-Suns or not.

Well don't personally attack people. It's against forum rules, and I'm here to make sure people follow them.

I agree. I crossed the line, but then I did apologize to Bondman. However, I am wondering why you didn't step in to address his personal attacks on saintescation and others on this board? In one of his posts Bondman said a post he disagreed with was a "flat out lie", basically calling saintescation a liar. He then immediately referred to the two people who And1 the post as "not being able to think for themselves". That fact that he was ratcheting up the rhetoric and then calling people a liar was what set me off. I over responded then apologized. You tell me not to attack personally, butwhy didn't you call out another mod for his posts on this forum?

Well I didn't fact check the stats in question. I don't know if saintescaton made stuff up or not. There are so many different sites with stats, I don't know which ones are the most accurate. When it escalated, I did say that we need to get back on track, because it sucked it got to where it went.

[Mulhollanddrive]

Go for a fap everyone, 9th seed frustration happens to us all.

[bondom34]

I'll just end it with this. But in the future, please just don't make stuff up, really annoying. And dishonest.

#foolishness

[Jdiddy701]

Gerald Green posting a picture with the Heat players today ruined my day. Goodnight.


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[Qwigglez]