What happened to Phoenix Suns Basketball?

[Revived]

Watching this Warriors-Grizzlies game and wow what a physical battle! Watching this series makes me feel like the Suns play a completely different sport than what these teams play.

I just loved how physical the game was. The refs let them play a little too. That's how every game should be officiated. Both Z-Bo, and Allen got away with stuff that some refs call as did Draymond and Bogut.

Love it.

[Damkac]

If Suns would try to play that way in 4th quarter they wouldn't have five players left as everybody would be fouled out.

[Wannabe MEP]

I hope you realize that run and gun doesn't win championships

It won two of the last 3 championships, and it's going to win this one.

You can do run-n-gun AND play defense.

This Warriors team is what the Suns should have always become. GS is the evolution of SSOL.

[Wannabe MEP]

Watching this Warriors-Grizzlies game and wow what a physical battle! Watching this series makes me feel like the Suns play a completely different sport than what these teams play.

All four teams still playing shot more 3 pointers this season than the Suns have in any season ever. They all use a stretch-4 most of the time. All of them also use small-ball and/or a stretch-5 in significant chunks. The two teams playing for the championship in the tougher conference both played faster than the Suns this year.

[Wannabe MEP]

Good teams with traditional frontcourts...Clippers, Grizzlies, Bulls, Spurs (although Spurs also do a lot of small/medium ball)

Good teams with traditional frontcourts still playing...0

[bwgood77]

Does anyone remember the exact details of the rumored agreed draft day trade for Curry? It seems it had Curry and Biedrins coming to us and Amare going out. I don't recall anything else. I wonder what our team would look like today had that happened. Who was our GM at that time?

[Wannabe MEP]

Does anyone remember the exact details of the rumored agreed draft day trade for Curry?

Interesting:
http://blogs.mercurynews.com/kawakami/2 ... -the-road/

Just as crushing: Stoudemire for Garnett would have been glorious. SSOL with a true defensive anchor.

(i.e., what Golden State is now...)

[bwgood77]

Does anyone remember the exact details of the rumored agreed draft day trade for Curry?

Interesting:
http://blogs.mercurynews.com/kawakami/2 ... -the-road/

Just as crushing: Stoudemire for Garnett would have been glorious. SSOL with a true defensive anchor.

(i.e., what Golden State is now...)

Q: So was the plan to play Curry with Nash?

-KERR: Oh yeah, the plan was to have that be kind of succession plan.

Surely there would have been a lot of complaining about the dual pg lineup with this..no defense.

[Revived]

Watching this Warriors-Grizzlies game and wow what a physical battle! Watching this series makes me feel like the Suns play a completely different sport than what these teams play.

All four teams still playing shot more 3 pointers this season than the Suns have in any season ever. They all use a stretch-4 most of the time. All of them also use small-ball and/or a stretch-5 in significant chunks. The two teams playing for the championship in the tougher conference both played faster than the Suns this year.

Good teams with traditional frontcourts...Clippers, Grizzlies, Bulls, Spurs (although Spurs also do a lot of small/medium ball)

Good teams with traditional frontcourts still playing...0

Tristian Thompson is not a stretch 4, and he's the one that's played starting PF for the Cavs for almost all of playoffs. Mozgov is no shooter either.

And the Hawks are struggling mightily against the non 3pt shooting front court of the Cavs, Millsap has been MIA all series long.

Warriors are using a stretch 4 agreed. But he's also the best defender in the NBA and an excellent rebounder so his only ability on the court isn't to stretch the floor (unlike Frye) otherwise he wouldn't play. Rockets, agreed but again their stretch 4 is Josh freaking Smith and he's been awful this series.

[Wannabe MEP]

Tristian Thompson is not a stretch 4, and he's the one that's played starting PF for the Cavs for almost all of playoffs. Mozgov is no shooter either.

You watch the game last night, bro? Yeah, they start those two (because the stretch-4 they want to play is injured), but Mosgov only played 22 minutes in a 53 minute game, and they played no other bigs. Thompson was the 5 most of the game, and they even went to 5-out with LeBron at the 5 in critical stretches.

[bwgood77]

These playoffs resemble new-age basketball’s death blow to the old-school. The final four ranked first, second, fourth, and seventh in 3-point attempts, and the overwhelming championship favorite is a revolutionary modern basketball machine launching godless triples while racing up and down at a turbo pace. Meanwhile, Phil Jackson is shouting at those meddling kids.

Even in a league moving away from the post-up as a vehicle for scoring, these four stood out in the regular season as relatively post-averse.1 This is the NBA’s engineered crescendo — the culmination of rule changes that made the drive-and-kick game unguardable, and the hand-in-hand rise of analytics-oriented teams that understood how to exploit that new ecosystem. The ban on hand-checking unleashed speedy ball-handlers. Legalizing zone-style defense has made every post entry pass an adventure in needle-threading.

The game looks gorgeous, but there is a nostalgia tugging at a generation raised on the shoulder-shaking artistry of Kevin McHale, Hakeem Olajuwon, and Michael Jordan: Has the league inadvertently killed the back-to-the-basket game?

“We are losing a part of our sport,” Jason Kidd says.

“The game is getting out of balance,” says George Karl, now coaching perhaps the league’s preeminent post-up brute. “But until we figure out a way to make the post-up more efficient, we’re not going back. You just can’t win throwing the ball into the post 60 times per game.”

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/we-in ... s-rebirth/

[Revived]

Tristian Thompson is not a stretch 4, and he's the one that's played starting PF for the Cavs for almost all of playoffs. Mozgov is no shooter either.

You watch the game last night, bro? Yeah, they start those two (because the stretch-4 they want to play is injured), but Mosgov only played 22 minutes in a 53 minute game, and they played no other bigs. Thompson was the 5 most of the game, and they even went to 5-out with LeBron at the 5 in critical stretches.

Ok LeBron is the 4,that's still not a stretch 4. LeBron doesn't just stand in corner and Chuck 3s.

I'll agree with you the game is changing but that doesn't mean their looking for 3pt chuckers at PF, their looking for playmakers.

Excellent article on the topic

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/23 ... -Stretch-4

LeBron, Green, Diaw, Smith, heck even Griffin (even though he can score as well) all fall under this category.

[Wannabe MEP]

Let's look again at something you said in this thread:

IMO he's all about run n gun because he knows its more appealing and entertaining to fans than halfcourt defense type teams. More tickets sales with an "exciting run n gun" offense.

* Note the distinction between "run n gun" and "halfcourt defense type teams."

And here's something I said in this thread:

You can do run-n-gun AND play defense.

Now, let's break this down really, really simply. (Ya know, just in case there any stupid people reading this. )

We'll define "run" as "fast pace."
We'll define "gun" as "shoot lots of threes."

This Warriors team... 1) plays at a faster pace and 2) attempts more threes ...than any Suns team from this millennium.

So they're -- quite literally -- more of a "run-n-gun" team than any version of the SSOL Suns.

So I'll repeat again (... and again ... and again ... ) you can do run-n-gun AND play defense!!! You've created a false dichotomy that you won't let go of...even though it's being PROVEN wrong right in front of your face.

[Revived]

Let's look again at something you said in this thread:

IMO he's all about run n gun because he knows its more appealing and entertaining to fans than halfcourt defense type teams. More tickets sales with an "exciting run n gun" offense.

* Note the distinction between "run n gun" and "halfcourt defense type teams."

And here's something I said in this thread:

You can do run-n-gun AND play defense.

Now, let's break this down really, really simply. (Ya know, just in case there any stupid people reading this. )

We'll define "run" as "fast pace."
We'll define "gun" as "shoot lots of threes."

This Warriors team... 1) plays at a faster pace and 2) attempts more threes ...than any Suns team from this millennium.

So they're -- quite literally -- more of a "run-n-gun" team than any version of the SSOL Suns.

So I'll repeat again (... and again ... and again ... ) you can do run-n-gun AND play defense!!! You've created a false dichotomy that you won't let go of...even though it's being PROVEN wrong right in front of your face.

Sure you could play run n gun and play defense but you have to coach that's committed to it like Steve Kerr and players that are committed to it like all NBA Andrew Bogut and all NBA/DPOY candidate Draymond Green.

The Spurs did plenty of run n gun the last 2-3 years to when they won titles and went deep in the playoffs. But again, their HC is committed to defense and they had Duncan and Kawhi holding it down defensively.

Just because I said half court teams are typically defense oriented doesn't mean I think its impossible for a run n gun team to be good defensively. The problem is that to be a a great defensive team while being a run n gun team, you have to have elite defenders like Bogut, Duncan, Green, Kawhi etc. Not Channing Frye type players. Easier said than done obviously. And the coach has to be committed to holding players accountable defensively and having a system in place defensively.

[JMac1]

The Suns were champs and blew a dynasty as far as I am concerned. We never had the "Suns" at full strength and people denied the fact the "Run N Gun" or playing non-traditional basketball could be victorious.

People ignore us missing JJ in 05, Amare in 06, and a cheating Ref in game 3, Nash nose in game 1, and suspension in game 5 of 07; those unfortunate situations helped contribute to the fact of us not winning anything during those years.

They always blamed it on a lack of this or that, never "the Suns were just never healthy." Heck, even Bell and Thomas were out in 06.

GS and Miami have proved that "small ball" wins if your small ball players are better than the "big ball" (lol) players.

Answer to OP original question. Cycle my friend. When players get old and or leave, you will stink for a period of time. This isn't the 80's or 90's. Were players stay with teams forever!Look at the Lakers...back to back terrible seasons, definitely not making playoffs next year either.

I just want to have an entertaining team to watch, win or lose. GS was fortunate to draft Curry and Klay. I think Warren is going to be our best player going forward.

"We'll be back!"

[Cutter]

These playoffs resemble new-age basketball’s death blow to the old-school. The final four ranked first, second, fourth, and seventh in 3-point attempts, and the overwhelming championship favorite is a revolutionary modern basketball machine launching godless triples while racing up and down at a turbo pace. Meanwhile, Phil Jackson is shouting at those meddling kids.

Even in a league moving away from the post-up as a vehicle for scoring, these four stood out in the regular season as relatively post-averse.1 This is the NBA’s engineered crescendo — the culmination of rule changes that made the drive-and-kick game unguardable, and the hand-in-hand rise of analytics-oriented teams that understood how to exploit that new ecosystem. The ban on hand-checking unleashed speedy ball-handlers. Legalizing zone-style defense has made every post entry pass an adventure in needle-threading.

The game looks gorgeous, but there is a nostalgia tugging at a generation raised on the shoulder-shaking artistry of Kevin McHale, Hakeem Olajuwon, and Michael Jordan: Has the league inadvertently killed the back-to-the-basket game?

“We are losing a part of our sport,” Jason Kidd says.

“The game is getting out of balance,” says George Karl, now coaching perhaps the league’s preeminent post-up brute. “But until we figure out a way to make the post-up more efficient, we’re not going back. You just can’t win throwing the ball into the post 60 times per game.”

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/we-in ... s-rebirth/

Great post 77! I have posted many times that I prefer the older style play of basketball. More traditional in the paint PF, a big defensive oriented shooter at SG etc. However I have also said this new style of ball the McD and Hornacek are trying to play is completely analytics based and takes advantage of the current rules in the NBA.

This past season we tried something I didn't like............the three headed hydra. Bled-Goran-IT all on the court at the same time. Honestly, I think this is a very powerful tool to use for stretches in the game. Unfortunately the chemistry on the team worked against this approach. I'm not sure if the chemistry problems came from Dragic or IT, but regardless the hydra experiment blew up. I can see the Suns trying it again this coming season, but hoping to get guys that buy in to this approach. Bled-Knight-(free agent) with good attitudes might be a powerful scoring force on the team. Len/Wright play lock down defense in the paint, and we sign Draymond Green as a stretch PF with defense and rebounding.

Analytics rules the day, and old school types like myself are a little late to the new way of playing.

[bwgood77]

Miami’s Big 3 would have never gotten together if Shawn Marion, of all people, had gotten what he wanted. Marion was so stubborn about wanting a max contract back in 2007 that his insistence helped blow up a three-team deal that could have sent Kevin Garnett from Minnesota to Phoenix. That deal would have prevented Garnett from ever teaming up with Paul Pierce and Ray Allen to win a championship in Boston. But Marion wouldn’t re-sign with a trading team that wasn’t offering the max, so he was instead sent to Miami for a disgruntled Shaquille O’Neal. Miami offered Marion a four-year contract that would have also kept Miami’s Big 3 from uniting, but not at the max. So Marion asked to be traded … and had to settle in Dallas for a five-year, $39 million deal that was far less than the max.

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/sports/spt-c ... rylink=cpy

[Wannabe MEP]

Can a traditional frontcourt still win a championship?

By "traditional frontcourt” I mean both bigs are paint-dwellers, including pairings like the following:

• Blake Griffin & DeAndre Jordan
• Pau Gasol & Joakim Noah
• LaMarcus Aldridge & RoLo
• Tim Duncan & David Robinson
• Duncan & Splitter
• Garnett & Perkins
• Zach Randolph & Marc Gasol
• Pau Gasol & Bynum
• David Lee & Bogut
• Stoudemire & Shaq

As you can clearly see from looking at that list, a lot of great basketball has been and continues to be played by traditional frontcourts. However, we’ve seen a trend over the past few years in which the teams that ultimately rise to the top are using traditional frontcourts less frequently.

I dug through the numbers for the last four NBA champions looking for info on how often they used traditional frontcourts.

Here are the playoff numbers:

2011 Mavs – 0%
2012 Heat – 9%
2013 Heat – 0%
2014 Spurs – 32.2%

* This number for the Spurs trended down throughout the playoffs: they completely abandoned Duncan-Splitter lineups in the finals.
* Both the Heat and the Spurs lost in the finals and then came back the next year and won. In both cases, they played significantly less traditional frontcourt minutes en route to victory.

[Wannabe MEP]

Also of note, the two teams remaining are at 3.0% (GS) and 29.5% (Cavs) for traditional frontcourts during the playoffs.

So, unless the Cavs play a ton of Tristan + Mozgov in the finals (seems unlikely??) and win, this will make it 5 years in a row with a champion that plays with a non-traditional frontcourt more than 2/3 of the time.

[Wannabe MEP]

I hear variations of this all the time: "Run-&-Gun might work in the regular season, but not in the playoffs. In the playoffs, you gotta be able to slow it down...grind it out...pound the paint." People on this board say it, pundits say it, smart guys like...Charles Barkley say it.

Let's take a look at some top-tier teams that play traditional frontcourts: Memphis with Zach Randolph & Marc Gasol, LAC with Blake Griffin & DeAndre Jordan, and Chicago under Thibs with Joakim Noah (+Pau, Boozer, Taj).

Those combos have been together for 16 seasons altogether.
2 total conference finals appearances. (0 finals appearances.)

Nash + undersized/spaced frontcourt? 4 seasons together. (2004-2007, again 2009-2010)
3 conference finals appearances.