Are the Suns a treadmill team?

[SarcasticSun]

You can find a superstar where we have been drafting. Nash, Paul George, Karl Malone, Kobe, Kawhi, Warren all went in the 10-16 range in the draft.

[Mulhollanddrive]

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/238758/NBA-Claims-Significant-Number-Of-Teams-Losing-Money

That's part of why Sarver is directing the franchise to become more competitive and make playoffs ASAP.

McDonough came out and basically said he's been directed to rebuild and contend at the same time, when other teams are just doing one or the other. So we get Tyson Chandler to try make playoffs, and Sarver let's McDonough play his scouting/rebuilding games at the small end of the salary.

[JTrain]

Since "Treadmill team" isn't in Webster's, let me propose a definition.

One significant goal of a franchise is to become "relevant". The definition of relevant is different for every person. For most people it would be at least to make the playoffs, and for many it would be to at least be a reasonable threat to make it into the second round.

If a team isn't currently relevant, there are a few common ways to get there.

For teams very close to relevance, all it may take is:

1. The addition of a solid role player though trade or free agency, or

2. The improvement of their promising younger players

For teams not so close:

3. Land a superstar free agent
4. Become bad enough to land a very high draft pick (usually 1-3) that ends up being a major difference maker

If you remain irrelevant and fail to move towards accomplishing any of the above four steps to relevance, you are effectively going nowhere and are therefore a treadmill team.

We have been on the treadmill (by this definition) since 2010-11 and seem likely to remain there at least through this season.

[bwgood77]

I know its crying over spilt milk but really the '13-'14 season was a make it or break it year where we were set up to reach the climactic pot of old at the end of the rainbow after naturally tanking only to be derailed by an overachieving squad lead by a deceivingly irreplicable career year from Dragic making an All-NBA team that lead us down this indefinitely winding path of prolonged conbuilding. If we're satiated with perennially being on the outside looking in then sure we don't need a change of course but its you need to raise your standards because you have to achieve something of worth even if you fall short.

So I guess that means you are not a fan of Warren, who won player of the year in the ACC in his first year with major minutes over Jabari Parker?

I am realistically hopeful. He's a nice promising consolation prize for missing out on the crown jewel. Booker on the other hand I'm not sold on and he will really need to convince me otherwise

Well he looked pretty good last night. I like his confidence at his age. And it doesn't seem like overconfidence either. It seems more like a more humble, mature confidence than some players who are a little too confident in what they think they are capable of.

[MrMiyagi]

A young team that wins 18 games is a team with potential. A young team that wins 39 games is a team on the treadmill. There is something wrong with that logic.

I agree with this. The draft lottery should've been changed a long time ago to quit continuously rewarding dysfunctional, inept franchises.

However, every single team knows the lay of the land. The worst place you can be in the NBA is where the Suns are at, not good enough to contend and not bad enough to get a high pick. If you are going to be in NBA purgatory, at least keep the cap flexible and hoard future assets. The Knight trade was alarming to me in that respect. Comparing this team to Houston or Boston of past years is misguided. The Suns don't have the assets to get a player(s) like that, primarily because they've botched the last 15 months so badly.

Sarver's arrogance is the anchor to this franchise. All he he cares about is getting the 8th seed, even if it means getting bounced in the first round and sacrificing the future. Its frustratingly shortsighted. Instead of focusing on his own franchise and the path to get better in the long term, he alienates other respected franchises during the lockout and preseason and bitches about playoff seeding just to be able to act like a buffoon on TV for 2 extra games in late April.

“I am not a real patient person,” Sarver says. “You don’t have the kind of success that allows you to buy an NBA team by being a patient person in business. But it’s just a personality trait, and you try not to make decisions based on that.”

Please tell us more about how smart you are and made your wealth by being a banker. That will endear you to the fans.

So when the TWolves ever get to 40 wins, they'll be in purgatory and the worst position in the NBA, right? Or will they get a pass because they have players pre-anointed as superstars? I mean, was New Orleans in purgatory last season? Should they've shipped out their whole team?

[bwgood77]

Since "Treadmill team" isn't in Webster's, let me propose a definition.

One significant goal of a franchise is to become "relevant". The definition of relevant is different for every person. For most people it would be at least to make the playoffs, and for many it would be to at least be a reasonable threat to make it into the second round.

If a team isn't currently relevant, there are a few common ways to get there.

For teams very close to relevance, all it may take is:

1. The addition of a solid role player though trade or free agency, or

2. The improvement of their promising younger players

For teams not so close:

3. Land a superstar free agent
4. Become bad enough to land a very high draft pick (usually 1-3) that ends up being a major difference maker

If you remain irrelevant and fail to move towards accomplishing any of the above four steps to relevance, you are effectively going nowhere and are therefore a treadmill team.

We have been on the treadmill (by this definition) since 2010-11 and seem likely to remain there at least through this season.

I guess we can all redefine treadmill to suit our needs for argument. I think your picture defines it perfectly. Staying in the same place.

In our case, we are more like a 70 year guy on the treadmill 4 and 5 years ago, who, I guess you could compare to the movie selfless, where he then started slowing down for a year, dumps his consciousness into a younger body, and quickly gained speed and muscle. Recently he had a hamstring pull though, but this summer got fully healed, got some super vitamins and is now ready to go, feeling more youthful and vigourous than ever. He also got a veteran runner to show him how to really get where he is going fast, and he is soon about to jump off that treadmill and start running up camelback mountain.

[Qwigglez]

Simply put I don't think we are a treadmill team. Any one of our guys can surprise us and become an all-star. Bledsoe/Knight/Warren/Len/Booker. Even Kieff might come into the season and average like 19 and 7, who knows. I don't think when Kawhi or Paul George were drafted anyone said yeah those guys are gonna be superstars for sure or else they would have been drafted higher.
We might already have our diamond in the rough, and maybe someone besides Tyson Chandler will take a hold of the team and become a leader.

[rsavaj]

I'm gonna re-post what I wrote in the offseason thread almost exactly one year ago.

Honestly, I can see the logic behind the "one step back, two steps forward" thing. Tanking, rebuilding, whatever the hell you want to call it...it's a good fantasy to have, and we all want to dream of that superduperstar we drafted leading this city to its first championship.

But as I've gotten a bit older(mid-20s, mind you) and busier, with less time to really stress out about the NBA the way I did during the SSOL years, my priority as a fan has shifted from "THIS TEAM MUST WIN THE CHAMPIONSHIP OR ELSE!" to "when I come home from work at the end of the day, I just want to watch an entertaining and competitive team."

Philadelphia and Orlando may be closer to a championship than we are, because maybe they've drafted the next big thing. But you know what? I....kind of don't really care about the title or bust stuff anymore. I know that sounds blasphemous, and 17 year old me would not believe I'm saying it, but as long as the team is fun and filled with guys I can root for, I'll take it. Maybe we never win a title because we're never bad enough to land "THE GUY", and yeah, that's frustrating, but if I have a chance at watching a good team play fun basketball most nights of the year, I'm more than satisfied at this point.

Carry on.

[phrazbit]

SF88 putting the Kings ahead of us on the path to success is downright trollish.

That franchise is a tire fire. It does not matter if they have Cousins, because A: he hates it there and B: they cannot give away money to get anyone to come play with him. They just dumped a bonanza of players and picks to clear space and got NO ONE to take their money.

That is the most dysfunctional team in the league.

[JMac1]

You would take Suns roster over Minnesota?

Smart move.

Hell yea, I would. I am not betting on unknown prospects.... They don't have Durant, Kobe, KG, Duncan........ Cleveland traded Wiggins...think about that. If you are a can't miss they don't trade you, he has questions. I love hearing about how good Towns shot is in practice Shabazz.....Lavine?!! Serious and Payne.

But hey, that is your opinion. I definitely disagree.

[saintEscaton]

You would take Suns roster over Minnesota?

Smart move.

Hell yea, I would. I am not betting on unknown prospects.... They don't have Durant, Kobe, KG, Duncan........ Cleveland traded Wiggins...think about that. If you are a can't miss they don't trade you, he has questions. I love hearing about how good Towns shot is in practice Shabazz.....Lavine?!! Serious and Payne.

But hey, that is your opinion. I definitely disagree.

Like our youngins are any more proven or tested by the trial time....They've barely managed to see the daylight of a NBA court and are still no lock to crack the rotation and receive regular minutes. Be it due to the lack of confidence they inspire /not displaying the ability to over seat mediocre players or Horny's unwillingness to give them a fair shake (despite him being heralded as a developmental coach)just to showcase vets who are not part of the longterm future. Same could be said about Archie, TJ and even Len (in comparison to Dieng). Wiggins immediately thrown to the dogs by being made a starter and played enough to expose his weakness/vulnerabilities as well as to prove than he can be an immediate contributor, none of our rooks have done that recently or been shouldered with the responsibility of carrying the team on their back. So in that regard they are not as unproven as as the Suns' youngins although reaching their enormous upside is a whole different story that we won't know until years from now. But we have no prospect comparable to a KAT or Wiggins. That is irrefutable

[HootieRules]

A young team that wins 18 games is a team with potential. A young team that wins 39 games is a team on the treadmill. There is something wrong with that logic.

I agree with this. The draft lottery should've been changed a long time ago to quit continuously rewarding dysfunctional, inept franchises.

However, every single team knows the lay of the land. The worst place you can be in the NBA is where the Suns are at, not good enough to contend and not bad enough to get a high pick. If you are going to be in NBA purgatory, at least keep the cap flexible and hoard future assets. The Knight trade was alarming to me in that respect. Comparing this team to Houston or Boston of past years is misguided. The Suns don't have the assets to get a player(s) like that, primarily because they've botched the last 15 months so badly.

Sarver's arrogance is the anchor to this franchise. All he he cares about is getting the 8th seed, even if it means getting bounced in the first round and sacrificing the future. Its frustratingly shortsighted. Instead of focusing on his own franchise and the path to get better in the long term, he alienates other respected franchises during the lockout and preseason and bitches about playoff seeding just to be able to act like a buffoon on TV for 2 extra games in late April.

“I am not a real patient person,” Sarver says. “You don’t have the kind of success that allows you to buy an NBA team by being a patient person in business. But it’s just a personality trait, and you try not to make decisions based on that.”

Please tell us more about how smart you are and made your wealth by being a banker. That will endear you to the fans.

So when the TWolves ever get to 40 wins, they'll be in purgatory and the worst position in the NBA, right? Or will they get a pass because they have players pre-anointed as superstars? I mean, was New Orleans in purgatory last season? Should they've shipped out their whole team?

The Suns have been sitting in purgatory for 3 years. The Wolves and Pelicans bottomed out and got #1 picks. You can't possibly be serious comparing the two. And LMAO at calling Anthony Davis nothing more than a per-annointed superstar.

[HootieRules]

Sarver's arrogance is the anchor to this franchise. All he he cares about is getting the 8th seed, even if it means getting bounced in the first round and sacrificing the future. Its frustratingly shortsighted. Instead of focusing on his own franchise and the path to get better in the long term, he alienates other respected franchises during the lockout and preseason and bitches about playoff seeding just to be able to act like a buffoon on TV for 2 extra games in late April.

“I am not a real patient person,” Sarver says. “You don’t have the kind of success that allows you to buy an NBA team by being a patient person in business. But it’s just a personality trait, and you try not to make decisions based on that.”

Please tell us more about how smart you are and made your wealth by being a banker. That will endear you to the fans.

I agree that Sarver is short sighted, but if you think he is aiming for the 8 seed, you don't know what Sarver hopes for in the long run. If you don't like the fact that McD was good enough to get Warren and Booker, that sucks, but those seem like solid productive picks. Many really high picks bust, and being competitive year in and year out is good for potential free agent signings. We are in the second year of a rebuild. Would you want us to bench our players just so we could get a higher pick? That might not go over well with players or potential free agents.

It's decision making across the board. Start with trading a potentially high pick and one of the best contracts in the league for Knight.

I love Warren. Why is PJ Tucker playing close to 40 minutes a game at the end of the season in meaningless games while Warren gets minutes in the teens? Same for Gerald Green over Archie Goodwin? Perfect situation for developing young players. All of these moves point towards the franchise focusing on making a longshot run at the 8th seed and nothing more. And all signs point to that being Sarver's agenda.

This isn't year 2 of the rebuild either. This is 5 straight years of overpaying players in the hopes of measley making the playoffs. It started with Turkoglu and Childress. It's a trend at this point.

[SUN]

Mostly everyone on the team is only going to get better in the future. We're a rebuilding team, compared to other teams in the league, we're a damn good one.

[bwgood77]

I'm gonna re-post what I wrote in the offseason thread almost exactly one year ago.

Honestly, I can see the logic behind the "one step back, two steps forward" thing. Tanking, rebuilding, whatever the hell you want to call it...it's a good fantasy to have, and we all want to dream of that superduperstar we drafted leading this city to its first championship.

But as I've gotten a bit older(mid-20s, mind you) and busier, with less time to really stress out about the NBA the way I did during the SSOL years, my priority as a fan has shifted from "THIS TEAM MUST WIN THE CHAMPIONSHIP OR ELSE!" to "when I come home from work at the end of the day, I just want to watch an entertaining and competitive team."

Philadelphia and Orlando may be closer to a championship than we are, because maybe they've drafted the next big thing. But you know what? I....kind of don't really care about the title or bust stuff anymore. I know that sounds blasphemous, and 17 year old me would not believe I'm saying it, but as long as the team is fun and filled with guys I can root for, I'll take it. Maybe we never win a title because we're never bad enough to land "THE GUY", and yeah, that's frustrating, but if I have a chance at watching a good team play fun basketball most nights of the year, I'm more than satisfied at this point.

Carry on.

I posted pretty much the same thing in a thread on the general board here viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1399692&start=286#start_here where a Bulls fan is arguing against everyone about how bad the Suns are and that the Sixers approach is better.

[hollywood6964]

I'm gonna re-post what I wrote in the offseason thread almost exactly one year ago.

Honestly, I can see the logic behind the "one step back, two steps forward" thing. Tanking, rebuilding, whatever the hell you want to call it...it's a good fantasy to have, and we all want to dream of that superduperstar we drafted leading this city to its first championship.

But as I've gotten a bit older(mid-20s, mind you) and busier, with less time to really stress out about the NBA the way I did during the SSOL years, my priority as a fan has shifted from "THIS TEAM MUST WIN THE CHAMPIONSHIP OR ELSE!" to "when I come home from work at the end of the day, I just want to watch an entertaining and competitive team."

Philadelphia and Orlando may be closer to a championship than we are, because maybe they've drafted the next big thing. But you know what? I....kind of don't really care about the title or bust stuff anymore. I know that sounds blasphemous, and 17 year old me would not believe I'm saying it, but as long as the team is fun and filled with guys I can root for, I'll take it. Maybe we never win a title because we're never bad enough to land "THE GUY", and yeah, that's frustrating, but if I have a chance at watching a good team play fun basketball most nights of the year, I'm more than satisfied at this point.

Carry on.

I posted pretty much the same thing in a thread on the general board here viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1399692&start=286#start_here where a Bulls fan is arguing against everyone about how bad the Suns are and that the Sixers approach is better.

While I can appreciate not having time, and of course, as you get older, especially if you have a decent life, sports teams become less and less important to you (save maybe people working in sports media, etc), but what comes with that lack of time and different things to do, is I'll only watch if the product is promising, or very good at the time. Right now I'll take promising; call it the optimistic in me, but I think we're only a big time player and a solid role player away from competing with just about anyone. Like I was saying before, 2 years, bout what we have.

[Frank Lee]

[bwgood77]

Those are all awesome. I've seen the last one before, and the third one is great, but they are all hilarious.

[Revived]

I agree with this. The draft lottery should've been changed a long time ago to quit continuously rewarding dysfunctional, inept franchises.

However, every single team knows the lay of the land. The worst place you can be in the NBA is where the Suns are at, not good enough to contend and not bad enough to get a high pick. If you are going to be in NBA purgatory, at least keep the cap flexible and hoard future assets. The Knight trade was alarming to me in that respect. Comparing this team to Houston or Boston of past years is misguided. The Suns don't have the assets to get a player(s) like that, primarily because they've botched the last 15 months so badly.

Sarver's arrogance is the anchor to this franchise. All he he cares about is getting the 8th seed, even if it means getting bounced in the first round and sacrificing the future. Its frustratingly shortsighted. Instead of focusing on his own franchise and the path to get better in the long term, he alienates other respected franchises during the lockout and preseason and bitches about playoff seeding just to be able to act like a buffoon on TV for 2 extra games in late April.



Please tell us more about how smart you are and made your wealth by being a banker. That will endear you to the fans.

So when the TWolves ever get to 40 wins, they'll be in purgatory and the worst position in the NBA, right? Or will they get a pass because they have players pre-anointed as superstars? I mean, was New Orleans in purgatory last season? Should they've shipped out their whole team?

The Suns have been sitting in purgatory for 3 years. The Wolves and Pelicans bottomed out and got #1 picks. You can't possibly be serious comparing the two. And LMAO at calling Anthony Davis nothing more than a per-annointed superstar.

He would probably say that he would take all Suns player over Anthony Davis too...just like he said about Wiggins.

If McD was given the chance to trade for Wiggins or Davis, he would piss his pants at the opportunity and absolutely give them whatever it takes even if it means all 14 or 15 players on the damn roster.

There's not one non Suns fan on Earth who would seriously take the Suns roster over Minnesota's. It's not even being a homer, it's insulting.

[MrMiyagi]

I agree with this. The draft lottery should've been changed a long time ago to quit continuously rewarding dysfunctional, inept franchises.

However, every single team knows the lay of the land. The worst place you can be in the NBA is where the Suns are at, not good enough to contend and not bad enough to get a high pick. If you are going to be in NBA purgatory, at least keep the cap flexible and hoard future assets. The Knight trade was alarming to me in that respect. Comparing this team to Houston or Boston of past years is misguided. The Suns don't have the assets to get a player(s) like that, primarily because they've botched the last 15 months so badly.

Sarver's arrogance is the anchor to this franchise. All he he cares about is getting the 8th seed, even if it means getting bounced in the first round and sacrificing the future. Its frustratingly shortsighted. Instead of focusing on his own franchise and the path to get better in the long term, he alienates other respected franchises during the lockout and preseason and bitches about playoff seeding just to be able to act like a buffoon on TV for 2 extra games in late April.



Please tell us more about how smart you are and made your wealth by being a banker. That will endear you to the fans.

So when the TWolves ever get to 40 wins, they'll be in purgatory and the worst position in the NBA, right? Or will they get a pass because they have players pre-anointed as superstars? I mean, was New Orleans in purgatory last season? Should they've shipped out their whole team?

The Suns have been sitting in purgatory for 3 years. The Wolves and Pelicans bottomed out and got #1 picks. You can't possibly be serious comparing the two. And LMAO at calling Anthony Davis nothing more than a per-annointed superstar.

The pre-anointed superstar comment was about the TWolves. Re-read the post.

Suns bottomed out in 2012-2013, got a top 5 pick, grabbed Len, and traded for good young players and were in the playoff hunt in 2013-2014. Last season we had some chemistry issues and still almost made the playoffs. Because we went from bottom dweller to average team in one season, people think we've hit a ceiling......