Suns Offseason Thread V: I Am My Brother's Kieffer

[irish22022]

Trade him wherever he wants. Get the best you can back. Move on.

The higher road will pay off in the long run.

[bwgood77]

Spoiler:

I'm not sure who I'd want from Toronto. Not as big a fan of Patterson as others here. I like Delon Wright, but I'd need more than that. Maybe Wright and Caboclo if our FO truly believes in Caboclo. Perhaps Terrence Ross.

I haven't watched Patterson much but his numbers look good, especially the 3 ball for a PF. Do you think we could expect a better offer than him and Delon for Kieff and Archie?....as one poster suggested.

I'm not really sure, and mostly because there is so much movement with Markieff due to his own actions plus the pending felony that his stock is all over the place, and he probably has very different value to different teams right now. I think for me I'd rather have one of Houston's PF's than Patterson and Delon. I don't think Patterson is awful or anything, but I think he's not a starting caliber 4 in this league, and so for me a 26 year old really good bench PF holds less value than getting a guy who has more upside. Plus, just looking at our core, Patterson is an FA in 2 years, which is when I see our window starting, so we'd have to pay him market value then anyways, and could've just signed him if not traded for earlier. That said, I really do like Delon Wright for our system, and you can control rookies throughout what I think our window is--thus, for me I'd see that trade as Delon Wright plus a really good backup 4 who would be a stopgap for the next 2 years (b/c even if he fell into our future plans, we could've then signed him as an FA anyways from 3 years from now and on). But I also think Archie and his improving jumper (and it has improved) is worth seeing through for another year before involving him as a throw-in in a trade like this. Guys who can get to the room at will have a lot of potential, and Archie is still very young. The odds of him putting it together may be slim, but the reward if you hit is so high I wouldn't involve him here. Archie to me has always been a long-term project pick, so I'm not as down on his progress as some. Chandler can help Archie's defense. Chandler directs every D he's played for--he can help our guards because he knows how they're supposed to defend also.

The thing with Houston's guys are they will cost a lot to re-sign, and so much so that we could probably just sign them this offseason without giving up anything. So, if you are giving up Markieff for either, you have to know the number they want and feel comfortable with that. I don't think either is better than Markieff right now, but both have higher upside to me. The other problem is Morey is that guy in people's fantasy leagues who only makes lopsided deals, and so he may refuse all of them.

For me, I like to gamble, and so I'd rather have Caboclo (rookie deal we can control for a number of years) or Ross (RFA in 1 year, but that gives us the option to control) or Zeller or Vonleh than Patterson, or even more picks, and then go into next offseason knowing Houston is not going to pay to keep both Jones and Motiejunas when they are already paying for their other guys, and that we have a desirable spot at the 4 with guys like Horford out there. I want us to make the playoffs this year because that experience would pay dividends down the line with our young team, and Patterson would help us more than other guys offered, but I feel like we do need a couple more high-upside assets or picks to put us in the best position going forward. Patterson to me isn't a high-upside asset.

Zeller, Vonleh, Jones, DMO (in no particular order) are all guys I'd want over Patterson. Wright, while I like him and value a 3rd PG, would be less valuable to our future than a high upside 4.

I agree with most everything you have said, but has Houston shown any interest? I've been ignoring Houston because they are strictly 3 or rim, and that is not Markieff. I would be surprised if they are that interested for him as a player for their plan, but Morey is an asset builder, though it seems like now is the time for them to stick to their plan on not build assets again. Obviously Markieff is very good, but does he fit Morey?

[sunskerr]

I believe Russell Crowe will become a very good player. Excuse me- Motiejunas. A 7 fter who can hit the three and played well last year would be an amazing get for Kieff. Patrick Patterson is also not too bad for Kieff, given the circumstances. I'd definitely prefer Motiejunas though.

Tell me there is anybody else in the league bar Mirotic (or any other impossible acquisition) you would want instead of Donatas:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtG0fBOCQmQ[/youtube]

In addition to the three, he also has the hook shot. He is basically the anti Plumlee. I think he can be star, or very close to one.

[ATTL]

A+ thread name.
First picture is the most homosexual thing I've seen since I accidentally watched that gay porn movie. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

[Kerrsed]

A+ thread name.
First picture is the most homosexual thing I've seen since I accidentally watched that gay porn movie. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

[ATTL]

A+ thread name.
First picture is the most homosexual thing I've seen since I accidentally watched that gay porn movie. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Saved to my nohomo folder.
Wtf would these guys do if they were 5'9" instead of 6'9"?

If we could get D-Mo for marqueef we should take it and run. I was hoping we could pry him away with Dragic at the deadline last season.

[dmastro32]

I hope we address backup PG though. I know some will freak out because of what happened with IT, but if we are really going to run a 2 pg system, the 3rd PG is more key than I think people realize. The one move I don't really like this summer was Price. I think there are younger guys around who can be more productive than him who we could/should get. It's perfectly fine to leave it open if we are okay playing Goodwin there for spurts. Will be interesting to see.

Price might not be a big name but he gives you what you need for a backup pg. He can run the offense,has continued improving from the outside and plays fast so you won't lose tempo. He also is a hard nosed defender, which can really bother other backup pgs. Biggest thing is he is a vet and knows his role. He won't piss n moan about fluctuations in his minutes he knows why he is here and is a pro that will just show up and give everything he has.

[Revived]

I honestly think both the Morris brothers need women in their lives. Their too attached to themselves almost in a weird incest homosexual way, they need to live apart and find a girl.

[m1chal]

I honestly think both the Morris brothers need women in their lives. Their too attached to themselves almost in a weird incest homosexual way, they need to find a girl they can share.

Fixed.

[BobbieL]

Trade him wherever he wants. Get the best you can back. Move on.

The higher road will pay off in the long run.

this is the answer

[Sunsdeuce]

Trade him wherever he wants. Get the best you can back. Move on.

The higher road will pay off in the long run.

this is the answer

He will be traded. It's not even a question, it's just a matter of when and where. Even when he "loved" Phoenix, he wasn't a team player, he was a headache.

To me, even if he didn't demand a trade, it was just a matter of time till the team got fed up with him.

I'm willing to bet before his career is over, he will have been on at least 5-6 team (maybe more). And Marcus is going to be a team hooper. There is a reason two teams already basically gave him away. The twins are just headaches and it's going to cost them millions of dollars before their careers are over.

[Leapinlarry22]

I believe Russell Crowe will become a very good player. Excuse me- Motiejunas. A 7 fter who can hit the three and played well last year would be an amazing get for Kieff. Patrick Patterson is also not too bad for Kieff, given the circumstances. I'd definitely prefer Motiejunas though.

Tell me there is anybody else in the league bar Mirotic (or any other impossible acquisition) you would want instead of Donatas:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtG0fBOCQmQ[/youtube]

In addition to the three, he also has the hook shot. He is basically the anti Plumlee. I think he can be star, or very close to one.

D-Mo is the player I wanted at the deadline last year in the Dragic sweepstakes. If we brought him aboard he would instantly be the only guy on the team we can throw the ball to on the low block and expect any real consistent post scoring. But he is an outstanding fit for this offense because he can shoot the three as well. The biggest issue with him is can he defend, but that is a learned skill


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[Fo-Real]

Can't see Huston being his destination, would be very tough getting salaries to match up unless they want to give up Ariza, and I don't see that. As far as Toronto, not a real Patterson fan, he is obviously a downgrade and at best a warm body. Don't think he is better than Mirza so they would have to add more or other players completely. Don't see much else on that roster that makes since for both sides. I have actually always liked James Johnson, but dude is like 32 and on the last year of a deal for very little, no leverage over the asset traded to us going ahead is no bueno, not to mention there would be a question of if he can be a full time pf. So a trade with either of those two teams needs to be a 3 way with someone else.

[kennydorglas]

Motie or T-Jones for thug Kieff would be really good for us.

[Fo-Real]

Tor. gIves Patterson and Ross, gets Morris, Tucker and Adrain Payne..... Minny gives up Bennett, Muhammad payne, receive Patterson and T Ross..... Phx gives up Kief and Tucker, receives Anthony Bennett, James Johnson and Muhammad.....

[Fo-Real]

Don't know, spit balling as Frank used to say before he was fed up with the team and fans on this board.. lol

[NavLDO]

Spoiler:

You guys clearly place a lot more value on these draft picks than I, and sure are comfortable thinking Dragic has peaked and will be washed up at 33. You also assume we would have paid Dragic the same as Miami (which will likely look like a normal deal as the spending spree escalates) May be consider a happy Dragon would have signed a lessor deal to remain the #1 dog. Two can assume, no?

I see you also neglected to mention we gave up LA's 1st to get Knight along with 2014's #18(Ennis). Who would have thought we'd trade LA's pick (????) AND the #18 which BTW, we got for theGORTAT and 2012's #13 (Marshall) Repeat... Martin GORTAT +2012 #13 ... for Tyler Ennis. How did that one 'Net'-out ? But lets not go there... that fogs up the glasses.

I place little value on the Cleveland pick. Odds are it wont amount to anything tangible for 2-3 yrs (see Goodwin) or may be a draft and stash euro.

Miami's 2017-18 top 7 protected and 2021 1st....As long as Mickey is the owner and Riley the GM... and Miami (the city) doesn't fall off the earth they will be competitive as they are always going to be an attractive FA stop. ...those will likely be mid picks at the best.

Thats a late and two mid 1sts. May be, just may be Miami's 2021 slides into a top slot... but with the current quest to rebuild/retool/regurgitate I think its an even bet Mcduh trades them as he attempts to land a superstar....
and catch his feather in a windstorm.

The best post on where we are ???? Wow. That calls for a new pair

Wow! Impressive. Amazing that you were able to infer that Miami is a much higher regarded FA destination than Phoenix, yet in the same breath, assume that Dragic would've given a 'discount' to sign in this much less favorable FA destination. How does that compute, exactly?

And yes, $17M per for Dragic is about $4M higher than I personally would've been comfortable paying a 29 YO player who has never been recognized via All-Star game, and has only a 3rd Team All-NBA selection to his name. So you fail to recognize Chandler as being good investment at $13M, who has, within the last 4 years been recognized (proving he has 'aged well'), as the NBA's DPOY, 3-time NBA All-Defense, one 3rd Team All-NBA, and an All-Star game. And this all at a position more coveted/difficult to find talent in.

And reactionary? McD has made plenty of trades that were not born out of necessity like Jared Dudley for Bledsoe. So trying to paint McD as a GM that doesn't make trades or FA signings unless it's in reaction to a player's unhappiness is an unfair characterization. As being an 'older' gentleman, Frank, I would think you would be able to rise above the notion of 'immediate gratification', but apparently not. Has McD been perfect? No. Has he been a GM for a long period of time? No. Yet you are awfully quick to judge a GM that has taken this team from a 25-57 team to an overall, above .500 winning % team.

Just saying Goran liked being in Phnx... a lot... To declare that a good trade is having a horse a couple blocks from the cart. Justify it with the money argument, but that is likely to go out the door next yr when the coffers really open up. -- But boiled down to its core: we received 2 (practically) unprotected draft picks for a 26 game rental. There was no guarantee he was going to re-sign in Miami, or were we able to keep him happy, that he'd re-sign with us. And $17M per , regardless of the cap increase, is $3M per more than a guy 4 years younger, and every bit as good, though in different ways, or a guy 6 years younger that is also as, or almost as good, overall. I'd rather have Knight and Chandler over Dragic and a $10M per-level Center ($3M per less than Chandler), and I think McD made a wise decision in that regard.

I don't believe I was discussing Chandler. I have acknowledged he is a good pick up...no lying he is 33... which I don't care about BTW. But since you bring it up, there is that selective argument that we should not invest in players who are older than our so called core... at least when it comes from the Dragon slayers. -- I agree, to a point. Chandler brings intangibles that Dragic doesn't, then couple those with the position and cost, and to me, Chandler > Dragic. But the selective arguments are counterintuitive.

My point about Miami is those picks, as distant as they may be, are likely mid to late rounders. Bosh is 31, Dragic 29, Whiteside 26, Winslow a rook... and 30+ mill dropping off their books next yr, along with an owner who ponies up... They look to be in decent position to remain very competitive over the next 3-4 yrs. Who knows in 2021 ? That hardly fits into our plans now, accept as a trade chip. (hello from LA1st remember me you will in next yrs draft) -- And that's exactly what I view those picks as: trade chips. I wouldn't be surprised to see McD pkg those with Kieff to 'upgrade' our PF position in the coming months. And while I could be wrong, I expect McD to hold on to Kieff until he's cleared legally. Kieff + those picks could potentially equal Love, Gasol, Horford, Favors, Faried, or Millsap, or an up-and-coming guy like Mirotic or Randle (just examples--I'm not endorsing any of these, personally).

overall above .500% ?? ... stat stretching there a bit aren't you??? --Not really. Remember, we were 1-10 to end the season, and that was due to injuries. Can't blame McD for that--at least not IMO. Take out those games and we are 38-33, in addition to 48-34, you get 86-67, or .562 Winning %. This was dismal team last yr, and of that banner McDuh/Horny yr, just 4 remain, assuming MoBro is a NoGo. Sigh... what once was.....

I will remain skeptical. McDuh has had his practice rounds as a once promising young team was dismantled. It is now one with many question marks / new players / what ifs and hope sos. And its still a couple players away. (The mantra of the Babby/McDuh era) There is little doubt IMO, we are back to square one. A .500 squad would be a minor victory (and of course, a 14th pick ) and the elusive superstar remains a black hole off in space. You are not going to get him with just draft picks. -- But is it his fault in his ability to obtain these guys? I honestly believe it was a case of 'where is my son?' as to why we lost out on LMA. But he's picked up Bledsoe, Knight and Chandler in his tenure, which is a heck of a lot better than Beasley, Scola, and Wesley Johnson.

FYI...There is a lot of trade activity here, with really only Bled and Knight to show for it.
http://www.prosportstransactions.com/basketball/Search/SearchResults.php?Player=&Team=Suns&BeginDate=2013-04-01&EndDate=2015-08-14&PlayerMovementChkBx=yes&Submit=Search&start=0 Gortat for Ennis...Scola for Bogdanavich... Thomas for a late late 1st, and Dragic for two distant unknowns.... I am not the only one who isn't that impressed with the FO, but it evident they are trying. At least here is the dope on McDuh activity. See for yourself. But you know where I stand. -- I do, and I'm not taking away from your right to express your opinion on the matter, but whereas I see a young GM doing as much as he can to make us better, you seem to see a GM that is ruining the team. I guess I'm one of those "A for Effort"-types.

Oh... and NavLDO, I see you omitted my recent favorite 'glasses' from the 'quote'...tsk tsk... couldn't you get your own pair -- sorry, man, not my style! I like these much better!

I totally get your points; they are valid. I just happen to disagree, and think that 2 years, 3 months is too quick to lay judgment on McD. Heck, his draft picks haven't even matured yet. So why are we judging the merits of McD's performance, when we haven't even seen Knight play following an off-season, or Warren beyond his rookie year, or the impact that Mirza, Chandler, or Weems may have on our team? Without context, I agree that all of the player movement in and out of PHX looks iffy. I'm just willing to see where this team goes this year before I start accusing McD of failing in his job.

I've stated it over and over, over the past year+, that I'm giving McD/Horny until the end of their 3rd season before I cast judgment on them. And even then, the drama caused by Dragic and the Morri are two situations that McD/Horny were left to deal with, and were beyond their control. And while many will blame McD for the Dragic situation, that was a combination of a poor decision by McD (bringing IT in) and the prima donna-ness/impatience of Dragic, that could not be foreseen, IMO. So I'll likely personally, be a bit lenient in my judgment, even after this season, but I understand those that won't. But after being 25-57 just over 2 years ago, I think they've done a decent job, so far. Perfect? No, but decent.

[Sunsdeuce]

I so hate the argument of injuries. The Suns are what their record says they are. Honestly, every single team has injuries. So I guess every single team should have been better too.

[Frank Lee]

A for effort + C for results = a 2.0 GPA



PS.... anyone notice the tats don't match up...from photo to photo

[ATTL]

I honestly think both the Morris brothers need women in their lives. Their too attached to themselves almost in a weird incest homosexual way, they need to find a girl they can share.

Fixed.

Tunnel buddies for life