Season Speculation, Trade Ideas & Discussion Pt. 5

[darealjuice]

Another opportunity for Josh and Dragan to step in. Josh wasn’t bad against the Pacers, hopefully he continues his recent good play. Dragan needs a bounce back game though, I had hoped he’d show a bit more stepping into guaranteed minutes with Quese out and last game was tough.

[bwgood77]

Also. We aren't getting trae boys. Yea it sucks but that kid is going 1 or 2 (celtics?????? Are you kidding me?) Get over that wet dream now before you have a meltdown come lottery ball time.

If we're behind the Magic, we won't get Trae. Ain't no better fit in the whole draft.

I think there are plenty of interesting PG prospects in the bottom half of the draft if we're not enamored with Sexton. I'm betting we take a C with that top pick. Whether it's Bamba's length, Bagley's motor or Jackson's instincts, we're sure to have a favorite. If we had the top pick, I suspect we'd take Ayton.

If you think Ayton would be the team's first choice, and that they prefer Cs with their pick, where would you guess they rank Young and Doncic?

[hollywood6964]

I prefer us to to do absolutely nothing but release Monroe....then plummet down the standings and auger in. This squad is beyond repair and devoid of talent. We play like a group who just picked sides at the Y.

Our vets have no value as nobody will absorb their remaining 10Mil year for what little they can provide on the court. Our kids haven't shown anything to warrant a good player in return..... some of them playing their way to europe/china. (You hear me Ulis??) The big 3 of Jackson, Chris, Bender are good values but inconsistent contributors. Production for dollar says keep them. Plus, we wont get anything back in a deal. we have nothing but picks to offer... unless we are willing to part with Warren... and at this point, if we were able to get some legit PG talent back, I might do it. But I'd rather see where the lotto shakes out.

With the pathetic play this team has been showing us, Im banking on a real good chance to get one of Young or Doncic.Atleast a top 5. Either way, McD has some real work to do this off season... A coach, a legit PG, a C all have to be found as this is the last year we get rewarded for being one of the worst teams in the league. His roster hodge-podging has shown little cohesion from day one. And please, no lectures on how young these guys are. Bad is bad. If he can't put a team together with what he has had then its time to go. Christ he has traded away a GD starting team and has little to nothing to show for it. (Dragic/Bled/Mobro1/Mobro2/TheGortat for ????)

This year is easy. Just look away from the train wreck and wait for the draft. We've done it before.... but this has to stop and this team has to compete next yr/soon else McD will be McDumped.

I'd still like to see what these guys could do in a traditional development scenario. Someone, anyone (because I'm not going to do the research to find the answer), tell me when the last time...or heck, if ever, a GM spent two top 10 picks on two under 20, highly-developmental players who played the same position, then tell me who they were, and how they both turned out to be great players...because surely McD must have had some type of blueprint to go off of when he decided to go that direction.

Seriously, all three of those guys are doomed...Chriss, Bender, and JJ. They're all going to fail. NOT because they aren't good enough, but because they are in an impossible situation. You've finally broken me down, Frank (well, not you...McD has done it with his dumb approach to team building), but I'm on the dump McD bandwagon the day after the Trade Deadline is over, if he has not traded one of the 2 PFs, and one of Warren or JJ.

Stupid waste of a 4th overall pick...TWO YEARS IN A ROW!!! Amazing, actually. I'm ok with 'sucking' the rest of the season, but then play JJ, and play Chriss or Bender...again (beating that dead horse)...Pick one! Really is a waste of draft picks if they don't start developing these kids, and letting Warren believe he's our starter of the future? That's a Dragic scenario waiting to happen again once he's 'sat' in favor of JJ.

But if we traded Warren + oh, I'll say Chriss today, for X PG, then start:

X PG / Booker / JJ / Bender / Chandler?? Len??

Then I'm ok with sucking til the cows come home...or the end of the season...whichever is first.

Draft a Center, another young PG...or two...a couple of developmental guys to be bench support, and let's go...but right now, we are accomplishing nothing. No one is getting developed properly, and we are still sucking...yay!

Absolutely, McDonough has been of little good since day one.

[bwgood77]

I think our pick will end up being top 5. I also believe we should deal whatever assets are necessary to land Trae Young, our future picks, Miami picks, Milwaukee picks, second rounders, a young player--whatever. We get young and FA center and we are on our way. Its fairly easy to fill out the roster with quality role players.

BTW. Who do you think will draw free agents more? A quality big, even a generational big like Bamba, Atyon, or Bagley, or a generational pg that gets double digit assists and makes everyone around him better?

I vote for the pg. One of the reasons that the Suns were a "star magnet" team in the 90's and even into the 2000's (drawing Barkley, Manning, Chambers, etc) was the pg priority of those teams. KJ, Kidd, Nash etc.

Quality PG without a doubt. Look at the teams with the best centers. Most of them are fringe playoff teams. The best pgs lead the best teams for the most part. They get others involved.

C's being a major impact is more a thing of the past. I'd probably have a tough time passing on a guy like Porter if his health checks out...being that he compares to Durant. Ayton even worries me a bit at times. Not sure if he's a hard worked. I won't be upset if we end up with him (if Young/Doncic are gone) but I'm not 100% sold on him. If we land 5 or 6 or 7 I'd be more than happy with Jackson though.

[WeekapaugGroove]

Week, do you think JJ was the wrong pick?

If I get the play the hindsight game after a half season then yeah I couldn't put Jackson in the top 5 big board of this draft. That's actually a hard exercise to do basing it both on potential and early results. The top 2 are easy with Tatum and Mitchell, then you have to consider Kuzma even though I think some guys have higher ceilings. Arguments could be made for Smith, Lonzo, OG, Frank and all those guys would be ahead of Jackson for me.

At the time it was an OK pick. They needed some defensive intensity and dude has some fire that's not debatable. As I said I personally liked Isaac more as a pure prospect, I still do but it's not like he's done much so far in his career. Now I get why they didn't take Isaac for fit reasons but hell if he's better than Chriss or Bender then that really shouldn't have mattered. I think it's fair to say they knew by the draft they weren't comfortable giving Bledsoe an extension so really they should have moved him then and targeted a PG. Had they went that route it would have been really interesting to see who the picked. Fox was highest rated by most but I think there is fit concerns if he can't develop a 3pt shot with Warren at the 3 it's hard to have a non 3pt shooter at the PG. Smith has the most upside but is a bit ball dominant. Frank probably would have been viewed as a reach but man is he a nice fit skill wise next to Booker. Jackson's fit with Warren is pretty weird too; it's really hard to play two wings at the same time who aren't good 3pt shootes.

It's really early to judge Jackson and he's played better as of late but his weaknesses scare the hell out of me. If he can't become a better FT shooter I have a hard time understanding how he can be a good offensive player even if he can be an average 3pt shooter. It will negate his driving ability because teams will learn to simply foul him and make him earn this points from the line. He's been underwhelming as a passer and turns it over too much but I think he can improve in this area but probably not to the point where he should be initiating a bunch of offense. Defensively is going to have to be his calling card but even there I have some concerns. I know some of you will rip me for this but I just don't think he's an elite athlete; more just above average by NBA standards and his lack of length hurts his ability to handle bigger guys making him a little less versatile.

[bwgood77]

I'd still like to see what these guys could do in a traditional development scenario. Someone, anyone (because I'm not going to do the research to find the answer), tell me when the last time...or heck, if ever, a GM spent two top 10 picks on two under 20, highly-developmental players who played the same position, then tell me who they were, and how they both turned out to be great players...because surely McD must have had some type of blueprint to go off of when he decided to go that direction.

Seriously, all three of those guys are doomed...Chriss, Bender, and JJ. They're all going to fail. NOT because they aren't good enough, but because they are in an impossible situation. You've finally broken me down, Frank (well, not you...McD has done it with his dumb approach to team building), but I'm on the dump McD bandwagon the day after the Trade Deadline is over, if he has not traded one of the 2 PFs, and one of Warren or JJ.

Stupid waste of a 4th overall pick...TWO YEARS IN A ROW!!! Amazing, actually. I'm ok with 'sucking' the rest of the season, but then play JJ, and play Chriss or Bender...again (beating that dead horse)...Pick one! Really is a waste of draft picks if they don't start developing these kids, and letting Warren believe he's our starter of the future? That's a Dragic scenario waiting to happen again once he's 'sat' in favor of JJ.

I know you ignore the "positionless" basketball thing and the fact that you need 8 or so rotation players playing major minutes and who starts isn't always the most important....but...

The Celtics drafted SF Jaylen Brown #3. The following year they drafted SF Jayson Tatum #3, signed SF Gordon Hayward to a max and traded for SF Marcus Morris who often starts.

They all seem to be progressing fairly well. Hayward's injured, but given you wanted an example of two high lottery picks being drafted who play the same position there is one.

Funny thing is, in 2014 they took PG Marcus Smart #6 and then the next year they took PG Terry Rozier #16 and even traded for IT the same year. They all played quite a bit. They also had combo guard Avery Bradley in there. They still had those two young rookie contract PGs when trading for all star Kyrie Irving.

That team worked out ok and all their players seem to develop fairly well.


Also, you mentioned something about Brooklyn being in a dilemma. They want to start Dinwiddie and Russell together....I posted articles and links yesterday...they say Dinwiddie being 6'6 can guard any 2s...and Russell is great and sometimes better off ball.

[darealjuice]

I'd still like to see what these guys could do in a traditional development scenario. Someone, anyone (because I'm not going to do the research to find the answer), tell me when the last time...or heck, if ever, a GM spent two top 10 picks on two under 20, highly-developmental players who played the same position, then tell me who they were, and how they both turned out to be great players...because surely McD must have had some type of blueprint to go off of when he decided to go that direction.

Seriously, all three of those guys are doomed...Chriss, Bender, and JJ. They're all going to fail. NOT because they aren't good enough, but because they are in an impossible situation. You've finally broken me down, Frank (well, not you...McD has done it with his dumb approach to team building), but I'm on the dump McD bandwagon the day after the Trade Deadline is over, if he has not traded one of the 2 PFs, and one of Warren or JJ.

Stupid waste of a 4th overall pick...TWO YEARS IN A ROW!!! Amazing, actually. I'm ok with 'sucking' the rest of the season, but then play JJ, and play Chriss or Bender...again (beating that dead horse)...Pick one! Really is a waste of draft picks if they don't start developing these kids, and letting Warren believe he's our starter of the future? That's a Dragic scenario waiting to happen again once he's 'sat' in favor of JJ.

But if we traded Warren + oh, I'll say Chriss today, for X PG, then start:

X PG / Booker / JJ / Bender / Chandler?? Len??

Then I'm ok with sucking til the cows come home...or the end of the season...whichever is first.

Draft a Center, another young PG...or two...a couple of developmental guys to be bench support, and let's go...but right now, we are accomplishing nothing. No one is getting developed properly, and we are still sucking...yay!

Absolutely, McDonough has been of little good since day one.

What a bunch of Drama Queens

JJ, Bender, and Chriss are all DOOMED!!! TJ is going to suddenly flip personalities, become an egomaniac, and want out!!! The Suns have wasted EVERY PICK!!!! WE ONLY NEED ONE OF EACH POSITION, NO ONE HAS EVER BECOME GOOD WHEN THEY WEREN'T THE ONLY PLAYER AT THEIR POSITON (while ignoring that on our own team TJ sat the bench for 2 years and suddenly is a good player)!!! But everything is magically fixed if we trade for the PG of my dreams (e.g. the star pure point guard that doesn't even exist) that fixes everything and is available to us for the price of 2 guys I proclaim destined to fail!

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

Also. We aren't getting trae boys. Yea it sucks but that kid is going 1 or 2 (celtics?????? Are you kidding me?) Get over that wet dream now before you have a meltdown come lottery ball time.

If we're behind the Magic, we won't get Trae. Ain't no better fit in the whole draft.

I think there are plenty of interesting PG prospects in the bottom half of the draft if we're not enamored with Sexton. I'm betting we take a C with that top pick. Whether it's Bamba's length, Bagley's motor or Jackson's instincts, we're sure to have a favorite. If we had the top pick, I suspect we'd take Ayton.

If you think Ayton would be the team's first choice, and that they prefer Cs with their pick, where would you guess they rank Young and Doncic?

I'm sure we love Young. I'm sure we like Doncic, but I've mentioned my reluctance about the fit.

I don't think McD completely buys into the idea that 7SOL and 3FGs are the only way to win in the modern game. I speculate that he likes the idea of having the classic inside-out arrangement of Booker-Ayton/Bagley.

But what do I know!

[TeamTragic]

I honestly think that we have just started developing our youth. I get that everyone wants to win but we are not a good team. This upcoming draft we need to clean house while developing our youth alongside Booker/Warren.

We don't need Chandler/Monroe and Knight doesn't help this team. We need to stay the course and encourage addition (development/picks) by subtraction (losses/trades).

[jcsunsfan]

It is interesting that two games ago, we were on our way. Jackson was improving, Chriss and a good game, Bender played effiencly, and all was rosey finally. Then we get blown out by Indy, and everything is all horrible again.

This is a good young team. We are dealing with a lot of injuries and sickness at the moment and we are entering a brutal section of our schedule. We are going to lose--a lot. Its Ok. The world won't come to an end. We will look for the bright moments in the darkness. If Devin struggles, its OK. We already know how good he is. We would like to see better performances from Bender and JJ, but they are young and this is a learning experience.

I prefer wins right now, but losses do not alarm me.

[bwgood77]

If we're behind the Magic, we won't get Trae. Ain't no better fit in the whole draft.

I think there are plenty of interesting PG prospects in the bottom half of the draft if we're not enamored with Sexton. I'm betting we take a C with that top pick. Whether it's Bamba's length, Bagley's motor or Jackson's instincts, we're sure to have a favorite. If we had the top pick, I suspect we'd take Ayton.

If you think Ayton would be the team's first choice, and that they prefer Cs with their pick, where would you guess they rank Young and Doncic?

I'm sure we love Young. I'm sure we like Doncic, but I've mentioned my reluctance about the fit.

I don't think McD completely buys into the idea that 7SOL and 3FGs are the only way to win in the modern game. I speculate that he likes the idea of having the classic inside-out arrangement of Booker-Ayton/Bagley.

But what do I know!

What teams does that work with these days really? I mean just look at the Rockets a couple years ago with Dwight, even though he was still shooting over 62% with 12 or so rebounds, and being a presence, blocking shots, in the middle, and then they move him and they go from 8 seed to like 3 seed....then he goes to Atlanta, still shooting over 62% with the boards, etc, and they lose Horford who could spread the floor and they lost in the first round, whereas the year before they knocked out the Celtics and lost to the Cavs in the playoffs.

Hornets seem to have gotten worse this year with him.

So many bigs taken high have been busts as of late.

That being said, I don't expect them to necessarily bust, but I would be hesitant to take them over a guy that can shoot and pass and is so versatile on offense.

Ayton doesn't seem to play real hard..as hard as he works on his body, he doesn't seem to do the same to instill his will on games. I think Bagley does though. Ayton surely has a lot of talent...just hope he has the game intensity and will always be dialed in.

[Cutter]

Per Wiretap

"Kings To Sit At Least Two Veterans Per Game To Develop Younger Players"

Is this a blatant tank move, or a true player development process?

[TeamTragic]

Per Wiretap

"Kings To Sit At Least Two Veterans Per Game To Develop Younger Players"

Is this a blatant tank move, or a true player development process?

[bigfoot]

Spoiler:

darealjuice wrote:
Hesh wrote:
But Jackson was our star in the making last draft. And Bender the one before that. Every season we're calling for a top pick so that we can land one these potential "stars" but who really knows when it comes to the draft. Are we gonna tank next season again when one of these guys don't pan out? Are we gonna tank every season until we finally hit gold? I'm not calling you out because I would like a top pick as well, but this approach might be getting out of hand.


You were expecting that star in the making to be done half way through his rookie season? That's revisionist history anyways, both Bender and Chriss have been called high risk projects since day 1, and it was well known that Jackson wasn't as developed on offense as the other guys at the top.

The point when you stop losing/tanking is, in my opinion, when the players you draft start looking like they can win games and you can start turning draft capital into the missing pieces of a good team. I'd assume that point will be when we have a legitimate option at starting point guard that isn't Ulis, we have a legitimate starting center, and we aren't wondering which one of Bender and Chriss is going to show up and contribute before each game. My personal hope is starts to happen next year with another year of growth for Booker, a solid offseason for Jackson, a full year under a real coach for Chriss and Bender, and adding someone like Young/Doncic/Ayton/Bagley/Bamba/Porter to to fill one of the holes in this team. It would be really nice if we started to see this at the end of the year so we can spend some draft capital towards building a team that can win some games next year, but I won't hold my breath.


Nah, I never said they were done. I'm very optimistic with our prospects, especially JJ. The poster I was quoting alluded to the thought that 1 or 2 of them would be role players and that we need to draft these potential "stars" in the next draft. I was merely pointing out the irony of writing these guys off when they were the potential stars we tanked for the last go round and if it turns out that he is correct in saying they're only role players, then who's to say this upcoming draft is a sure thing.

I'm all for developing our players, creating structure and a culture and I wouldn't sacrifice these just to blatantly tank for a top pick. This is the other problem I have with tanking. I'd love to get one of these guys in the top 5 but at what expense? I agree with your evaluation, although I'm still on the fence with promoting Triano.

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=1643840&start=2000#p62216873

The issue I have, however, is continuing to take players at positions we have 'covered'. If JJ is our future at the 3, yet we continue to start Warren, I believe they are on a train headed full-speed toward a mountain-side...it's not gonna be pretty. Something has to give. JJ cannot be the #4 overall pick and be our Bench SF...our '6th Man'; he needs to start and be developed as a starter. Warren is doing a great job as a starter, though he has his warts, of course. But everyday that Warren starts and continues to build up his résumé as a starter, and get better, how are 'you' (McD/Triano) gonna tell him--"Hey, thanks for all you've done as our starting SF...you've been great, but now we're going to demote you to 6th Man because we drafted JJ 4th overall, and he needs to be our starter."

Then, there's the 2 x 20-YO PFs drafted at the same time. Sorry, but Bender needs those reps as a starter as well to be developed properly, playing with the starters. And heck, Chriss isn;t even getting the 30-ish MPG he should be as a starter...why? WE have to play Bender. They're both being developed improperly, thus delaying the process, IMO.

Then add in the fact of our PG situation, which to me, is much more critical than our Center position right now, because our young guys need to develop with a 'Floor General'.

We're in a bad spot right now, so what is the best solution? Go get one of the young PGs out there that are stuck behind other PGs? Trade for an older PG on a team that wants to get a younger one some reps? Do we wait until the draft and get one there?

Thing is, let's say we go to the draft, as is, and let's say we are drafting 7th, and the following scenario plays out:

#1 - Bagley
#2 - Doncic
#3 - Ayton
#4 - Young
#5 - Bamba
#6 - Jaren Jackson
#7 - On the Clock

Who are you going to choose? Sexton is the next best PG and the logical choice. But you notice who's missing and supposed to be gone by now, but isn't, because Team #6 needed a playmaker at PF right now.

Well, we should take Porter, right?? NOOOOOO!!!! But we will, won't we. And your saying, as your reading this, Nav's crazy, you always take the BPA. And I'd say, you are right...

...OR, you shop the pick for the PG in the league that you want, because X team with said PG would LOVE to have Porter.
...OR, you trade some of our other assets at the SF/PF position for a PG.
...OR, you draft him, then 'trade him' down a few spots for a ridiculous payback in picks/players.

but you don't go into next season with Warren, JJ, Porter, Bender, and Chriss all on the same team, and expect they will all develop...again, with no PG.

So, I guess my point is, I really don't care which direction they decide to go, so long as they decide on a direction, instead of what feels like to us fans as directionless meandering.

I expect JJ begins next year coming off the bench. By the beginning of year 3, however, I expect to be the starter, with TJ being the league's best sixth man. I don't think we'll be able to keep JJ off the floor.

I think there's a very good chance we have a breakout season next year. I think we'll add one or two significant (rotation) free agents, including a starting PG. I think we'll also try to get a small upgrade at the C spot - probably just player who combines Tyson's rebounding with some offense. Players like that could be acquired on the cheap, I think, given the plethora of C's in the league at the moment. Add Williams, assume one of Knight or a draft pick gives us an upgrade over Ulis, and assume continued growth from our young players, and we'll have improved at every position - starters and backups alike.

As for your scenario - we might just take Porter. We'd have to really love Sexton to take him over Porter, unless his injury issue is especially prohibitive. I could see us trading down at a very steep premium - probably in the form of a very significant upgrade at the 1 or 5, and probably another future pick as well.

The only breakout we will have next season is a serious case of acne from the five new draft picks and all the existing under 22's on the team.

[NavLDO]

I prefer us to to do absolutely nothing but release Monroe....then plummet down the standings and auger in. This squad is beyond repair and devoid of talent. We play like a group who just picked sides at the Y.

Our vets have no value as nobody will absorb their remaining 10Mil year for what little they can provide on the court. Our kids haven't shown anything to warrant a good player in return..... some of them playing their way to europe/china. (You hear me Ulis??) The big 3 of Jackson, Chris, Bender are good values but inconsistent contributors. Production for dollar says keep them. Plus, we wont get anything back in a deal. we have nothing but picks to offer... unless we are willing to part with Warren... and at this point, if we were able to get some legit PG talent back, I might do it. But I'd rather see where the lotto shakes out.

With the pathetic play this team has been showing us, Im banking on a real good chance to get one of Young or Doncic.Atleast a top 5. Either way, McD has some real work to do this off season... A coach, a legit PG, a C all have to be found as this is the last year we get rewarded for being one of the worst teams in the league. His roster hodge-podging has shown little cohesion from day one. And please, no lectures on how young these guys are. Bad is bad. If he can't put a team together with what he has had then its time to go. Christ he has traded away a GD starting team and has little to nothing to show for it. (Dragic/Bled/Mobro1/Mobro2/TheGortat for ????)

This year is easy. Just look away from the train wreck and wait for the draft. We've done it before.... but this has to stop and this team has to compete next yr/soon else McD will be McDumped.

Except we haven't done so well in the past two drafts, so maybe it's best we consolidate our assets and make a deal. Or hope Brandon becomes our white Knight.
I actually wish we would have just kept Bledsoe. At least then we would only have one gaping hole instead of two.

Actually, as I alluded in my above post, we have no idea how we've done in the past couple of drafts; once we have an opportunity to develop them properly, with a proper PG, over a full season or two, and then they've shown little to no progress, then let me know, and I'll agree that we haven't done so well in the past two drafts (unless, of course, you're talking about McD's gameplan/strategy, because then I'd agree).

But it's interesting how top picks, when provided an actual development schedule/plan, tend to do better than those have it piecemeal'd. It doesn't guaranty success, of course, but it certainly gives the player a better chance than when the haphazed approach is taken.

[NavLDO]

We have our wiggins in Chriss.......please stop. If any of our youth is a bust, it's Chriss. Besides, wiggins has been good since day one, so I don't see the parallel in the least.

viewtopic.php?p=62190395#p62190395

Andrew Wiggins, worst max player ever?

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1656515#p61896620



secure image upload

Funny...from what I can see, I'm not seeing a whole lot of 'goodness' from Wiggins in his 1st 2 seasons...or after that, as the recent thread on the GB shows.

If we force-fed Chriss 30+ minutes per night, like teams have done with Wiggins; attempting to WILL him to be good, well, we could get the same results. Maybe we should Max him out as well; oh wait, his name is not the great, Andrew Wiggins.

You need to get it out of your head that Wiggins is this wonderful player. Yeah, I stretched that, calling Chriss our 'Wiggins', but my meaning wasn't necessarily talent level, but where he fits on the team when one starts saying "oh x player is their #3" or "their #4"...in this example, Chriss, or Wiggins, is the #4 on the team. That was my meaning. Look at their Starting Lineup

Teague / Butler / Wiggins / Gibson / Towns and Dieng being the backup C that's good enough to start, but can't

Now look at ours in that scenario I painted...

All-Star / Booker / JJ / Chriss / McCoy (Courtesy of Heat Pick) and Len being the backup C that's good enough to start, but can't

So, the scenario I'm painting there is is Wiggins is the #4 (and actually, likely #5--I'd honestly rather have Gibson)...just like Chriss would be the #4. Is their #4 better than ours? Yep. But don't be deluded into thinking that Wiggins is some awesome player, because he just isn't.

So while I understand what you are saying, my intention wasn't really to say that Chriss is as good of a player, even if, when really looking closely, they are not as far apart as it may seem.

I didn't say he was awesome, or the great, or whatever. Why this board insists on leading arguments is beyond me, it's way too see through n rudimentary.

Anyway, I said he's been good, and he's has. 23ppg last year, less this year, but of course with a fairly good team with a lot of options.

Now the real point was about Chriss compared to wiggins. Not the same position or even type of player. Also wiggins is more of a #3 option, maybe 3/4, on a pretty good team, while Chriss struggles to get minutes from game to game on a pretty bad team. Meanwhile Wiggins was a strong 20 plus point per game scorer on a bad team. And you think Chriss could do the same with the same push? Please stop. Again. This is a poor argument.

No, he's not. He's a number 4 on a pretty good team. Chriss 'could' be a #4 on a pretty good team. That's my point. Why are you trying to make it more than what my point was; has nothing to do with position, or type of player. It's about option on a playoff team. Wiggins is in his 4th year, and is the 4th best player on a playoff team. In two seasons from now, Chriss could be the 4th best player on a playoff team. That is ALL I was saying.

But hey, if this os more about you needing to be right, then go ahead and be right. You are right, they do play different positions, and you are also right, they are different kind of players, and you are right again, Wiggins is a 3rd or 4th option on a pretty good team, while Chriss struggles to get minutes from game to game on a pretty bad team.

They also are different heights, different weights, are on different teams, have different coaches, have different development schedules, were drafted at different overall picks in the draft, and get paid different amounts.

But, getting back to what my meaning was, is that Chriss could be our 4th best player on our playoff team in a year or two, as well, following that scenario I had laid out, which is the ONLY thing I was trying to say.

And you have the nerve to talk about this board 'leading arguments is beyond you', why don't you try looking in the mirror, since you are the one that started this whole debate, when you didn't even understand my meaning in the 1st place...but since you decided to take it where you did, I figured I would go ahead and show you that Wiggins isn't really that 'good'. BK shot 20 PPG too...

[WeekapaugGroove]

Per Wiretap

"Kings To Sit At Least Two Veterans Per Game To Develop Younger Players"

Is this a blatant tank move, or a true player development process?

Well their vets suck so it really doesn't matter to wins and losses if they play them or not.

In general I find it hilarious when teams make a big deal about needing that vet leadership in the summer time then like 40 games later act like its some shocking development that playing the vets is taking time from developing young guys... no ****.

[Damkac]

Spoiler:

I prefer us to to do absolutely nothing but release Monroe....then plummet down the standings and auger in. This squad is beyond repair and devoid of talent. We play like a group who just picked sides at the Y.

Our vets have no value as nobody will absorb their remaining 10Mil year for what little they can provide on the court. Our kids haven't shown anything to warrant a good player in return..... some of them playing their way to europe/china. (You hear me Ulis??) The big 3 of Jackson, Chris, Bender are good values but inconsistent contributors. Production for dollar says keep them. Plus, we wont get anything back in a deal. we have nothing but picks to offer... unless we are willing to part with Warren... and at this point, if we were able to get some legit PG talent back, I might do it. But I'd rather see where the lotto shakes out.

With the pathetic play this team has been showing us, Im banking on a real good chance to get one of Young or Doncic.Atleast a top 5. Either way, McD has some real work to do this off season... A coach, a legit PG, a C all have to be found as this is the last year we get rewarded for being one of the worst teams in the league. His roster hodge-podging has shown little cohesion from day one. And please, no lectures on how young these guys are. Bad is bad. If he can't put a team together with what he has had then its time to go. Christ he has traded away a GD starting team and has little to nothing to show for it. (Dragic/Bled/Mobro1/Mobro2/TheGortat for ????)

This year is easy. Just look away from the train wreck and wait for the draft. We've done it before.... but this has to stop and this team has to compete next yr/soon else McD will be McDumped.

I'd still like to see what these guys could do in a traditional development scenario. Someone, anyone (because I'm not going to do the research to find the answer), tell me when the last time...or heck, if ever, a GM spent two top 10 picks on two under 20, highly-developmental players who played the same position, then tell me who they were, and how they both turned out to be great players...because surely McD must have had some type of blueprint to go off of when he decided to go that direction.

Seriously, all three of those guys are doomed...Chriss, Bender, and JJ. They're all going to fail. NOT because they aren't good enough, but because they are in an impossible situation. You've finally broken me down, Frank (well, not you...McD has done it with his dumb approach to team building), but I'm on the dump McD bandwagon the day after the Trade Deadline is over, if he has not traded one of the 2 PFs, and one of Warren or JJ.

Stupid waste of a 4th overall pick...TWO YEARS IN A ROW!!! Amazing, actually. I'm ok with 'sucking' the rest of the season, but then play JJ, and play Chriss or Bender...again (beating that dead horse)...Pick one! Really is a waste of draft picks if they don't start developing these kids, and letting Warren believe he's our starter of the future? That's a Dragic scenario waiting to happen again once he's 'sat' in favor of JJ.

But if we traded Warren + oh, I'll say Chriss today, for X PG, then start:

X PG / Booker / JJ / Bender / Chandler?? Len??

Then I'm ok with sucking til the cows come home...or the end of the season...whichever is first.

Draft a Center, another young PG...or two...a couple of developmental guys to be bench support, and let's go...but right now, we are accomplishing nothing. No one is getting developed properly, and we are still sucking...yay!

OK so let's summarize:
- Chriss and Bender are doomed because they play the same position
- JJ is doomed and waste of a pick because he and Warren play the same position
- lets trade Warren and one of PFs for PG
- THEN LETS DRAFT ANOTHER YOUNG PG OR TWO BECAUSE THIS IS NOT A WASTE OF PICK AND ALL 3 WILL DEVELOP WELL


All three of the "doomed" players you mentioned play 20+ minutes a game. Really they are in impossible situation. If they would play 40 minutes a game they would be all-stars already.

You want to trade one of Bender or Chriss. So how would you know which one will be better player? I have no idea. It is too early to tell. What if the one traded will become star and the one Suns keep will be bust? Maybe one will be star and the other will be solid backup? And if both will develop into starter level players? THEN we could trade one. Not the worst problem.

You want to trade Warren but how can we be sure that Jackson will be better player than Warren? Of course when you draft someone with 4th pick you hope he will be really good but you can't be sure. What if Suns will trade good player on great contract and JJ will never become a decent starter? Hopefully, JJ will be as good as we expect him to be and THEN Warren will become 6th man. And if he won't be happy with coming of the bench? THEN Suns can think about trading him.

Doing any moves right now is dumb without knowing
1) who will the Suns get in the draft
2) how will our youth develop

[lilfishi22]

I prefer us to to do absolutely nothing but release Monroe....then plummet down the standings and auger in. This squad is beyond repair and devoid of talent. We play like a group who just picked sides at the Y.

Our vets have no value as nobody will absorb their remaining 10Mil year for what little they can provide on the court. Our kids haven't shown anything to warrant a good player in return..... some of them playing their way to europe/china. (You hear me Ulis??) The big 3 of Jackson, Chris, Bender are good values but inconsistent contributors. Production for dollar says keep them. Plus, we wont get anything back in a deal. we have nothing but picks to offer... unless we are willing to part with Warren... and at this point, if we were able to get some legit PG talent back, I might do it. But I'd rather see where the lotto shakes out.

With the pathetic play this team has been showing us, Im banking on a real good chance to get one of Young or Doncic.Atleast a top 5. Either way, McD has some real work to do this off season... A coach, a legit PG, a C all have to be found as this is the last year we get rewarded for being one of the worst teams in the league. His roster hodge-podging has shown little cohesion from day one. And please, no lectures on how young these guys are. Bad is bad. If he can't put a team together with what he has had then its time to go. Christ he has traded away a GD starting team and has little to nothing to show for it. (Dragic/Bled/Mobro1/Mobro2/TheGortat for ????)

This year is easy. Just look away from the train wreck and wait for the draft. We've done it before.... but this has to stop and this team has to compete next yr/soon else McD will be McDumped.

Except we haven't done so well in the past two drafts, so maybe it's best we consolidate our assets and make a deal. Or hope Brandon becomes our white Knight.
I actually wish we would have just kept Bledsoe. At least then we would only have one gaping hole instead of two.

Man you know things have got weird around here when Frank is leading the tank and draft charge

Qwigs - You're not wrong about how it's looking for the past two drafts. But I would say if that's the suns opinion after these next 40 games then I would prefer to change the person making those decision instead of changing the method of talent acquisition. Especially with the top of this draft that is both highly regarded and is loaded with PG's and C's two immediate needs for the Suns. As far as making the change I realize McD got an extension but if they don't feel he's done a good enough job then Sarver needs to bite the bullet and eat that money and get someone in here who can evaluate talent. The timing works this summer too since they will be hiring a new coach so it could be time for a whole organizational change at the top.

Now with all that said they should always be opportunistic and if the right player was available in a trade you explore the option. And I do think they should have more of a win now focus this summer than ever before but to me that's more draft one guy and then use the cap space to grab a vet strategy then to empty out the asset bin for someone.

I've called for McD to be put on the hot-seat since last season and I think this is completely fair. Dropping McD and biting his remaining salary is a drop in the ocean compared to biting the bullet and waiving/stretching one of his mistakes like Knight

[lilfishi22]

Based on the way you guys are talking, I would think that none of you watched Josh Jackson play over the last couple weeks. Kid's been tearing it up.

Last 5 games:
12.6 PPG
4.6 RPG
2.4 APG
.4 STL
.4 BLK
1.4 TO
47% FG
47% 3FG
... in only 21.6 MPG.

I'm pretty sure we did not "miss" with Josh Jackson.

I've noted this in the game thread I believe and I'm encouraged but it's also only 5 games. Let's see him string together a few more games before we pass judgement one way or the other.