2022-23 Season Discussion and Review - the Blockbuster trade and playoff downfall

[handsome salary]

"I'm the national media and I proclaim the Suns ain't winning the West or it all. THEY GOT NO DEPTH!!"

Good to know. Time to stop watching the games.

[WeekapaugGroove]

was monitoring the morning talk shows and the consensus is that nobody is impressed with our team yet. They're impressed with KD and somewhat with Booker, but depth and defense remain big question marks from the major talking heads. Best address them quickly.

Nothing they can do to address anything roster wise, this will be the group they go to battle with.

I don't consume much national media but I'd guess we have a portion who are rooting for KD to fail since he forced his way out of Brooklyn. You also have some straw man stuff like the 'I don't think the Suns are the best team in the West'... Like yeah they are a 4 seed so cool argument.

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yeah, I brought it up not because I particularly give a crap about what the national media says, but it makes sense that any flaws that even casual observers can tell from watching the Suns should be huge focuses for improvement, as they are likely to be glaring. And with our roster being set, hopefully more reps and work will help us shore up those two items going forward. For example, we have plenty of guys off the bench who can potentially contribute, but we need time to work out who Monty can reliably bring in for specific situations. Yesterday he kind of tried throwing everything from the bench at Dallas and seeing what sticks, and we were lucky that Ish came through when he did, but that's not going to be there every night.

I think every contender has some questions with the Bucks being the most complete team. I think the suns bench will have to be very matchup based in the playoffs and the key is Monty finding that group who works best against that specific team. 5-15 on this roster is pretty even, not particularly bad but all players who have some weaknesses.

I look at it like this. CP and Payne are likely to play all the PG mins. Ayton and Joc/Biz cover the C minutes. That leaves 144 SG, SF, PF mins. Booker and KD will play 80-85 of those in a playoff game. So they need to find 65 minutes out of Okogie and everyone else. Maybe Payne and CP play a little together and that reduces that number but I hate those two together so I hope not.

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[handsome salary]

How does the Suns bench rank 3rd in best net rating when everyone has deemed them so bad?
https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/advanced?StarterBench=Bench&dir=A&sort=NET_RATING

[Jdiddy701]

The only teams that worry me are the Clippers and the Bucks. I think those are the only teams that can actually give the Suns trouble because of their defense. Clippers have been a mess, but do feel if they’re locked in, they match up very well against the Suns.

Denver will struggle vs the Suns. Where Suns have struggled in the past, are teams that trap and pressure Paul/Booker, the Nuggets don’t have players to do that and a lot more difficult with KD on the team. Who’s guarding KD on that team? MPJ? Good luck.


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[MrMiyagi]

How does the Suns bench rank 3rd in best net rating when everyone has deemed them so bad?
https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/advanced?StarterBench=Bench&dir=A&sort=NET_RATING

Because we don't have a "name" off the bench.

Worth noting post all-star we're 5th.

[spanishninja]

it's March, so Book gets player of the week

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[flagstaff]

was monitoring the morning talk shows and the consensus is that nobody is impressed with our team yet. They're impressed with KD and somewhat with Booker, but depth and defense remain big question marks from the major talking heads. Best address them quickly.

Nothing they can do to address anything roster wise, this will be the group they go to battle with.

I don't consume much national media but I'd guess we have a portion who are rooting for KD to fail since he forced his way out of Brooklyn. You also have some straw man stuff like the 'I don't think the Suns are the best team in the West'... Like yeah they are a 4 seed so cool argument.
I don't think KD forced it the second time. Brooklyn after losing Kyrie decided to do right by KD while getting some good players and picks back. Kyrie forced the issue.
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[Funky Tut]

Bucks are a nightmare match up for us , I cannot believe we actually had a 2-0 lead on them in the finals. I am curious to see how much KD effects things against them.

[lilfishi22]

Since the all-star break, CP3 has taken 2.4 catch and shoot 3's and shooting them at an almost 42% clip. Getting that percentage higher is going to make us super dangerous as teams dare him to shoot like the Mavs did yesterday.

[Mr Puddles]

Well, looky looky.

What an epic collapse by the grizzlies in the fourth lol.

Almost as bad as the Clippers giving up 51 points in the third. And these are the guys that we've been hearing for the past years would have surely beaten us if Leonard hadn't gotten injured....

The Clippers would definitely beat us two years ago if Leonard wasn’t injured. They took our team to 6 games without him, guess what they’d do if he played?

The Clippers:
- couldn't beat a Chris Paul-less Suns team in games 1&2
- were 4-4 in the games Kawhi Leonard played that postseason
- blew a 3-1 lead to the Nuggets the year prior, not making it past the second round.

I don't think there's ever been a team that has gotten more respect for doing less.

[lilfishi22]

Bucks are a nightmare match up for us , I cannot believe we actually had a 2-0 lead on them in the finals. I am curious to see how much KD effects things against them.

The Bucks are a nightmare for most teams. The addition of F. Crowder is sneaky great one because that gives them their PJ Tucker replacement who can defend guards, wings and some smaller bigs. They have a guy they can stick on all of our likely scorers and can rotate them too.

KD: Giannis/Mids/Crowder
Booker: Mids/Holiday/Crowder/Allen/even Giannis
DA: Lopez/Giannis/Crowder
CP3: Holiday/Mids/Crowder/Allen

I'd hate to match up with them again, even with KD

[WeekapaugGroove]

What an epic collapse by the grizzlies in the fourth lol.

Almost as bad as the Clippers giving up 51 points in the third. And these are the guys that we've been hearing for the past years would have surely beaten us if Leonard hadn't gotten injured....

The Clippers would definitely beat us two years ago if Leonard wasn’t injured. They took our team to 6 games without him, guess what they’d do if he played?

The Clippers:
- couldn't beat a Chris Paul-less Suns team in games 1&2
- were 4-4 in the games Kawhi Leonard played that postseason
- blew a 3-1 lead to the Nuggets the year prior, not making it past the second round.

I don't think there's ever been a team that has gotten more respect for doing less.

But they have a bunch of guys on their bench that I've heard of before

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[NapoleonII]

Ayton needs more minutes WITHOUT KD.

KD and Booker are such intensive, ball-dominant scorers. They score in their sleep. In their spots, they're at times unstoppable. You go through them multiple times because they produce and consistently beat any defense.

That's not Ayton's game. He thrives on pick and rolls, rhythm shots, shooting the mid-range after penetration, hook-shots after he gets position, clean-up duty when the play breaks down.

Booker and Ayton need to keep their two-man game up because it's looked great pre-KD. See his 25/30 pt games, Ayton needs to get fed. CP3 can do it consistently. KD doesn't have the chemistry with him yet, and has been playing great with Jock and the bench.

Monty is dropping the ball so far in forgetting Ayton. He's just letting Booker and KD go off, which is fine for now, but there needs to be more cohesion and inside looks.

[bigfoot]

How does the Suns bench rank 3rd in best net rating when everyone has deemed them so bad?
https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/advanced?StarterBench=Bench&dir=A&sort=NET_RATING

Because we don't have a "name" off the bench.

Worth noting post all-star we're 5th.

The real question is who has carried the bench?

If you look at net rating for just the bench players here's what you'll see ... https://tinyurl.com/yjsbh4tn

Jock +9.7
Shamet +9.3
Ish +7.8
Okogie +6.5
Lee + 4.6
Bizzy +1.6
Payne -1.9
Craig -6.6

Did not include Baz, TJ, or Ross since they have limited minutes.

Jock is really disrespected by our fans. Need to get Shamet back ASAP to see how he fits. Ish will be our next PJ Tucker.

[WeekapaugGroove]

Ayton needs more minutes WITHOUT KD.

KD and Booker are such intensive, ball-dominant scorers. They score in their sleep. In their spots, they're at times unstoppable. You go through them multiple times because they produce and consistently beat any defense.

That's not Ayton's game. He thrives on pick and rolls, rhythm shots, shooting the mid-range after penetration, hook-shots after he gets position, clean-up duty when the play breaks down.

Booker and Ayton need to keep their two-man game up because it's looked great pre-KD. See his 25/30 pt games, Ayton needs to get fed. CP3 can do it consistently. KD doesn't have the chemistry with him yet, and has been playing great with Jock and the bench.

Monty is dropping the ball so far in forgetting Ayton. He's just letting Booker and KD go off, which is fine for now, but there needs to be more cohesion and inside looks.

Oh God more not using Ayton right stuff


But I actually agree they need to make an effort to get him some shots. Not because I care how much he scores but because I think he's just more engaged in other areas when he gets his looks. Plenty of bigs are like that, **** it's why OKC used to run their first offensive play for Perk.

But it's also 3 games so I'm sure everyone is still learning to play with each other. Ayton also needs to bust ass and get good position if he wants the rock.

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[Mr Puddles]

Ayton needs more minutes WITHOUT KD.

KD and Booker are such intensive, ball-dominant scorers. They score in their sleep. In their spots, they're at times unstoppable. You go through them multiple times because they produce and consistently beat any defense.

That's not Ayton's game. He thrives on pick and rolls, rhythm shots, shooting the mid-range after penetration, hook-shots after he gets position, clean-up duty when the play breaks down.

Booker and Ayton need to keep their two-man game up because it's looked great pre-KD. See his 25/30 pt games, Ayton needs to get fed. CP3 can do it consistently. KD doesn't have the chemistry with him yet, and has been playing great with Jock and the bench.

Monty is dropping the ball so far in forgetting Ayton. He's just letting Booker and KD go off, which is fine for now, but there needs to be more cohesion and inside looks.

Oh God more not using Ayton right stuff


But I actually agree they need to make an effort to get him some shots. Not because I care how much he scores but because I think he's just more engaged in other areas when he gets his looks. Plenty of bigs are like that, **** it's why OKC used to run their first offensive play for Perk.

But it's also 3 games so I'm sure everyone is still learning to play with each other. Ayton also needs to bust ass and get good position if he wants the rock.

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We need to be able to get Ayton more shorts when he's on the floor with Durant and Booker, not when they're resting. I love what Okogie brings, but when he's taking 15 shots a game then we're letting the defense dictate how we run our offense. We have 3 hall of famers and a 20/10 big man on our roster - Monty needs to make sure we run plays to get the ball to the right guy, not just swing the ball around until we find the open man, because more often than not, the open man is going to be the guy the defense wants to have the ball in his hands. Our championship hopes shouldn't have to depend on if the guys we've signed for minimum, or close to minimum, contracts are having hot shooting nights or not.

[lilfishi22]

Ayton needs more minutes WITHOUT KD.

KD and Booker are such intensive, ball-dominant scorers. They score in their sleep. In their spots, they're at times unstoppable. You go through them multiple times because they produce and consistently beat any defense.

That's not Ayton's game. He thrives on pick and rolls, rhythm shots, shooting the mid-range after penetration, hook-shots after he gets position, clean-up duty when the play breaks down.

Booker and Ayton need to keep their two-man game up because it's looked great pre-KD. See his 25/30 pt games, Ayton needs to get fed. CP3 can do it consistently. KD doesn't have the chemistry with him yet, and has been playing great with Jock and the bench.

Monty is dropping the ball so far in forgetting Ayton. He's just letting Booker and KD go off, which is fine for now, but there needs to be more cohesion and inside looks.

I don't know what your definition of feeding DA is, whether it's dumping it to him in the post and ask him to create or whether it's just giving him more PnR/PnP/dump off pass opportunities but I do agree we should at the very least get him more touches. But in terms of creating, I think thus far we've found a great balance with KD/Book/CP3 creating for the team. CP3 is doing his thing creating for the team as usual, KD is averaging almost 4 assists a game without knowing all of our sets yet and Book has averaged almost 8 a game in these last 3 games (23ast across 3 games and only 2 to's) .

So I'm certainly pro getting DA more shots but it needs to be within the flow of the offense which is flowing right now. I think DA will naturally get more opportunities as KD continues to play with him and understand how to use him better. But we're just not going to go back to a month or so ago where he had the opportunity to take all these shots and averaging 24ppg because we now have Book back and we now have KD in the mix.

I think the potential opportunity is if Jock can continue his improving form especially in line ups with KD. KD has been really really good at finding those wide open dump off opportunities to the big in the post and has found Jock a couple of times in the post and Jock has been good at finishing. This is good because that could mean more productive minutes from Jock but that also means DA could get more minutes with the bench or in line ups without KD and Book and giving him more scoring opportunities.

But ultimately, we need DA's size in the starting line up because that's when most team's bigs are on the court. Teams usually go a little smaller or go with lesser bigs off the bench which and you could make up those minutes with small ball or Jock/Biz. That's just how it is going to be in the playoffs.

[enigmatics]

Ayton needs more minutes WITHOUT KD.

KD and Booker are such intensive, ball-dominant scorers. They score in their sleep. In their spots, they're at times unstoppable. You go through them multiple times because they produce and consistently beat any defense.

That's not Ayton's game. He thrives on pick and rolls, rhythm shots, shooting the mid-range after penetration, hook-shots after he gets position, clean-up duty when the play breaks down.

Booker and Ayton need to keep their two-man game up because it's looked great pre-KD. See his 25/30 pt games, Ayton needs to get fed. CP3 can do it consistently. KD doesn't have the chemistry with him yet, and has been playing great with Jock and the bench.

Monty is dropping the ball so far in forgetting Ayton. He's just letting Booker and KD go off, which is fine for now, but there needs to be more cohesion and inside looks.

Oh God more not using Ayton right stuff


But I actually agree they need to make an effort to get him some shots. Not because I care how much he scores but because I think he's just more engaged in other areas when he gets his looks. Plenty of bigs are like that, **** it's why OKC used to run their first offensive play for Perk.

But it's also 3 games so I'm sure everyone is still learning to play with each other. Ayton also needs to bust ass and get good position if he wants the rock.

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They have enough mid-range guys.

It's sad that the Suns don't have a big with consistent hands who wants to PUNISH people down low to take advantage of the open interior now that they have two elite scorers drawing most of the attention. Those types of players absolutely demoralize teams.

[Frank Lee]

DA has yet to learn how command position in the paint. He gives up too easily. May be he needs about 15 more lbs or something.
Blah blah blah blahty blah

King CouldBe will be needed…. But now not as much on O. Frankly, im more concerned about CPs play. Dude absolutely gets blown by over and over. He’s surviving with guile alone on the D side

[bigfoot]

Ayton needs more minutes WITHOUT KD.

KD and Booker are such intensive, ball-dominant scorers. They score in their sleep. In their spots, they're at times unstoppable. You go through them multiple times because they produce and consistently beat any defense.

That's not Ayton's game. He thrives on pick and rolls, rhythm shots, shooting the mid-range after penetration, hook-shots after he gets position, clean-up duty when the play breaks down.

Booker and Ayton need to keep their two-man game up because it's looked great pre-KD. See his 25/30 pt games, Ayton needs to get fed. CP3 can do it consistently. KD doesn't have the chemistry with him yet, and has been playing great with Jock and the bench.

Monty is dropping the ball so far in forgetting Ayton. He's just letting Booker and KD go off, which is fine for now, but there needs to be more cohesion and inside looks.

Oh God more not using Ayton right stuff


But I actually agree they need to make an effort to get him some shots. Not because I care how much he scores but because I think he's just more engaged in other areas when he gets his looks. Plenty of bigs are like that, **** it's why OKC used to run their first offensive play for Perk.

But it's also 3 games so I'm sure everyone is still learning to play with each other. Ayton also needs to bust ass and get good position if he wants the rock.

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We not to be able to get Ayton more shorts when he's on the floor with Durant and Booker, not when they're resting. I love what Okogie brings, but when he's taking 15 shots a game then we're letting the defense dictate how we run our offense. We have 3 hall of famers and a 20/10 big man on our roster - Monty needs to make sure we run plays to get the ball to the right guy, not just swing the ball around until we find the open man, because more often than not, the open man is going to be the guy the defense wants to have the ball in his hands. Our championship hopes shouldn't have to depend on if the guys we've signed for minimum, or close to minimum, contracts are having hot shooting nights or not.

Totally counter-intuitive. If any player has an open three ... he takes it. Paxson, Horry, and Ellie are all role players who took game-altering three-point shots against the Suns, dashing championship hopes.

It's a five-man game and forcing the ball to DA who can't create for himself and is not great at generating assists via passing is the wrong strategy. DA generating screen-assists, rebounding, playing lockdown defense, and rolling hard to the basket is what will be needed to get the chip. Insisting DA gets 15 shots is a recipe for disaster.