The One And Only Offseason Thread 4

[Scutt]

You are making a very poor assumption, which seems to happen often here. First, no one wants to be mediocre, and just because you happen to land 7-10 seeds in the tough west, in no way means your team is mediocre.

That maybe true with a young team who has a franchise player and are building towards something, but that is clearly not the case with the Suns. When you land in the 7- 10 seeds with the average age of your rotation players being 26 and you have no legitimate franchise player, YES you are mediocre. That is where the Suns currently stand.

Look around this tread, many posters have made it clear they prefer chasing the 8th seed. One even said we should do so at the cost of Goodwins development, so when a majority of Suns fans are fine with being an 8th seed, I would argue they do indeed LIKE being mediocre. This current Suns team is what is, there is no superstar. This team isn't trending upward to where we will be coming out of the west anytime soon, we don't have that young star to build on. We are not the Thunder from a few years ago, with Durant and Westbrook, where they built up to a finals run. This Suns team as constructed isn't going to grow without some serious changes and a serious upgrade in talent. The draft is a great way to secure that talent, you just have to be willing to accept the growing pains that come with developing it.

And what is this "change the culture" talk? Please explain more? Because all I have heard and seen is Jeff Hornacek talk about pushing the tempo and playing small ball. Like I said in an earlier post, the Suns have been doing that for years. How is that changing the culture? It looks like they are continuing on the same path the Suns have been on for the last few years, getting those # 14 picks...

[bwgood77]

If we re-sign Bledsoe, it will be heavy minutes for him, Dragic, and IT, with minor minutes going to Green. Jeff said in the PC, that two of the three pgs will on the floor at all times.

I didn't realize that. So that basically means that if Tucker starts, Green will backup the 3, and the twins will be the rotation at 4.

I guess there is a possibility Len gets extremely limited minutes again and perhaps Tolliver and Kieff play together quite a bit (so Tolliver could stretch the floor) and when Mook is in there to stretch the floor he can play more with Plumlee. Obviously Kieff will start with Plumlee, but maybe they stagger the rotation to have the frontcourt for much of the game give the combos I just laid out. It would really alleviate missing Frye because you would always have a stretch big in there.

[bwgood77]

Yes, Goodwin does need to develop him game, he needs to develop it against NBA caliber guys, not inferior talent in the D league where he averaged something like 30 points a game last year. Like I said earlier, I realize Goodwin wont get any burn on the Suns, they are too busy wanting to be mediocre and fight for the last playoff spot. Screw playing and developing young talent, its not the Suns way. We just sign guys in free agency or trade for guys who are ready to go and run on that treadmill, no rebuilds for the Suns.

Dude, Goodwin may not ever be NBA starter material or even regular rotation material REGARDLESS of how much he plays. Hornacek gets to watch him go up against guys in practice every day and if he can't handle playing against that talent yet, he doesn't deserve it. If we had zero talent like the Sixers and were just going to basically have a full rotation of rookies, then fine, he could compete, but guys like Green and Tucker and our three point guards have fought and scraped for years to EARN playing time. Things were never handed to them.

The great thing about being a Suns fan is that they will always be competitive or at least do their best to do so. Before last year, the prior few years were pretty frustrating because we were an old team trying to compete for the 8th spot which does no one any good.

Right now we are a young team with mostly 4-6 year guys playing along with one third year guy getting minutes. Archie is still super young and will eventually get playing time if he is good enough.

I know you think we were mediocre, but we finished one and two games behind teams that took the one and two seeds of the west to 7 games. We had the 11th best record in the league, blew out the Pacers twice, crushed the Clippers once, beat SA pretty bad and played pretty well against most of the top teams in the west.

I know you want to see Archie get in there while Bledsoe, IT, or Dragic sit on the bench, but he simply will just make us MUCH MUCH worse, and he could get humiliated and lose confidence, and in case you forgot...

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5-iJUuPWis[/youtube]

If we play Archie too much, we could have a situation like this on our hands...

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7fjDS0jKiE[/youtube]

[Scutt]

^ Regular season wins and regular season record don't mean anything when it comes to the playoffs. Playing run and gun with a bunch of guards, living and dying by the three ball, and having no real skilled big man is not how you make deep playoff runs. As we stand now, this team will try and fight tooth and nail, over playing vets, just to sneak in as the 8th seed. If it were a bunch of young guys doing it, then I would be all for it and super excited, but like I said we were not a young team last year, our average age was 26 in terms of rotation players.

[bwgood77]

This is the age old debate about playing time for young players.

If you play worse players just to get them experience, you run the risk of losing games you could have won. In a conference as tough as the west, that could be the difference in making or missing the playoffs, or between a good seed and a bad one.

I took McD at his word when he said, "We not only want to make the playoffs but advance in the playoffs this year."

So simply making the playoffs is more important than looking to the future and developing young talent? I think it should be clear by now, we are not getting a disgruntled superstar, not one in their prime anyway. So are the Suns just going to be a treadmill team for the next few years? Just fighting for that 8th seed and first round exits? Maybe we get lucky and win a round here and there, and then get the privilege of being the punching bag for some team in the 2nd round.
The worst part is knowing that is all Robert Sarver and the front office want, why else would they be regurgitating this small ball, run and gun stuff and completely ignoring their lack of quality bigs. Like I really want to watch a Suns team live and die by the 3, trying to outshoot their opponents, while not rebounding or playing any defense. I have been watching that my entire time as a Suns fan and for once I would like for us to care about rebounding and defense. We don't have to try and be the bad boy Pistons, but just get players that rebound and defend and make an effort for the fans sake.

I don't know what makes you think Archie will EVER be better than Goran or Bledsoe. Goran was third team all nba and Bledsoe in his first year starting played at almost an all star level. You really think Archie is going to be THAT much better and will lead us to a championship?

As for addressing bigs, there really were not any out there that we could get. We certainly did our best to get Love and LeBron, and there really were not any of those guys out there in free agency OR the draft that would have addressed those areas. Last year McDonough addressed them by bringing in a 2nd year guy and a rookie...two centers who got most all the time at center. What more can he do? He is treating our frontcourt just how you want Archie to be treated but you complain about that? If we had gone out and gotten a quality big somehow you'd probably be whining that we need to give Plumlee and Len more time because at best we are a 2nd round playoff team.

Our guards are all guys who have been in the league 6 years or less. The twins are on their rookie deals, and the centers I addressed above. We have two vets playing SF, one is nice to have to be the vet and leader on the team to some extent, and the other is still pretty young and blossomed in front of us this summer.

We ARE one of the youngest teams in the league, even by who we play on the court. Now if we still had Scola, Gortat and Dudley and were trying to fight for the playoffs, you'd have a point.

[Scutt]

This is the age old debate about playing time for young players.

If you play worse players just to get them experience, you run the risk of losing games you could have won. In a conference as tough as the west, that could be the difference in making or missing the playoffs, or between a good seed and a bad one.

I took McD at his word when he said, "We not only want to make the playoffs but advance in the playoffs this year."

So simply making the playoffs is more important than looking to the future and developing young talent? I think it should be clear by now, we are not getting a disgruntled superstar, not one in their prime anyway. So are the Suns just going to be a treadmill team for the next few years? Just fighting for that 8th seed and first round exits? Maybe we get lucky and win a round here and there, and then get the privilege of being the punching bag for some team in the 2nd round.
The worst part is knowing that is all Robert Sarver and the front office want, why else would they be regurgitating this small ball, run and gun stuff and completely ignoring their lack of quality bigs. Like I really want to watch a Suns team live and die by the 3, trying to outshoot their opponents, while not rebounding or playing any defense. I have been watching that my entire time as a Suns fan and for once I would like for us to care about rebounding and defense. We don't have to try and be the bad boy Pistons, but just get players that rebound and defend and make an effort for the fans sake.

I don't know what makes you think Archie will EVER be better than Goran or Bledsoe. Goran was third team all nba and Bledsoe in his first year starting played at almost an all star level. You really think Archie is going to be THAT much better and will lead us to a championship?

As for addressing bigs, there really were not any out there that we could get. We certainly did our best to get Love and LeBron, and there really were not any of those guys out there in free agency OR the draft that would have addressed those areas. Last year McDonough addressed them by bringing in a 2nd year guy and a rookie...two centers who got most all the time at center. What more can he do? He is treating our frontcourt just how you want Archie to be treated but you complain about that? If we had gone out and gotten a quality big somehow you'd probably be whining that we need to give Plumlee and Len more time because at best we are a 2nd round playoff team.

Our guards are all guys who have been in the league 6 years or less. The twins are on their rookie deals, and the centers I addressed above. We have two vets playing SF, one is nice to have to be the vet and leader on the team to some extent, and the other is still pretty young and blossomed in front of us this summer.

We ARE one of the youngest teams in the league, even by who we play on the court. Now if we still had Scola, Gortat and Dudley and were trying to fight for the playoffs, you'd have a point.

I complain about that because they are doing it wrong. If you insist on being a playoff team like the Suns say they are, then why have such a great polished backcourt and roll with a joke front court? If you want to be a playoff team you need some balance there. Now if we were rebuilding and letting the young guys develop, then I would welcome Plumlee and Len as our centers and Keiff as the only "big" power forward, but that is not what is happening. If they wanted to be a playoff team so bad they should have just kept Gortat...

And again that last line is complete bull. How many times do I have to type this? WE ARE NOT THAT YOUNG!! ( I feel like Owen Wilson in Wedding Crashers) The Suns average age for their rotation players LAST YEAR was 26.1 years old, putting us right in the middle of the pack, but keep telling yourself we are a young and upcoming team, whatever helps you sleep.

[bwgood77]

^ Regular season wins and regular season record don't mean anything when it comes to the playoffs. Playing run and gun with a bunch of guards and no real skilled big man is not how you make deep playoff runs. As we stand now, this team will try and fight tooth and nail, over playing vets, just to sneak in as the 8th seed. If it were a bunch of young guys doing it, then I would be all for it and super excited, but like I said we were not a young team last year, our average age was 26 in terms of rotation players.

Miami did pretty well the last few years playing small ball with a stretch 5. SA has gone to playing quite a bit of small ball, but of course they have Duncan who is a top 10 player of all time. OKC plays mostly small ball.

But winning championships ultimately doesn't come down to style of play (despite what people say) but typically the teams with superstars or top 20 players of all time win every time. We played well with small ball in the very late 80s/early 90s and got to the WCF twice, and nearly beat Portland one year, and lost to the Lakers with Magic the first year.

This was after trading away our all star big (Nance) for a young pg (KJ) who led our offense with Hornacek.

In the mid 2000s, we crushed everyone in the league when healthy, and only lost to Duncan's Spurs, mostly because they had a superstar, not because of their style of play. They have completely changed their style of play. Of course we lost to the Mavs one year without Amare, but again they had a top 20 player of all time.

[Scutt]

Miami did pretty well the last few years playing small ball with a stretch 5.

That is a poor comparison and you know it. Just because it worked for Miami with a big 3 that included Bosh, Wade, and Lebron, who is the best player in the league, doesn't mean the Suns are going to have any success with their Bledsoe and Dragic small ball. It didn't work with prime Nash, Amare, and Marion, so how are inferior players going to take us further playing the same system?

[RunDogGun]

You are making a very poor assumption, which seems to happen often here. First, no one wants to be mediocre, and just because you happen to land 7-10 seeds in the tough west, in no way means your team is mediocre.

That maybe true with a young team who has a franchise player and are building towards something, but that is clearly not the case with the Suns. When you land in the 7- 10 seeds with the average age of your rotation players being 26 and you have no legitimate franchise player, YES you are mediocre. That is where the Suns currently stand.

Look around this tread, many posters have made it clear they prefer chasing the 8th seed. One even said we should do so at the cost of Goodwins development, so when a majority of Suns fans are fine with being an 8th seed, I would argue they do indeed LIKE being mediocre. This current Suns team is what is, there is no superstar. This team isn't trending upward to where we will be coming out of the west anytime soon, we don't have that young star to build on. We are not the Thunder from a few years ago, with Durant and Westbrook, where they built up to a finals run. This Suns team as constructed isn't going to grow without some serious changes and a serious upgrade in talent. The draft is a great way to secure that talent, you just have to be willing to accept the growing pains that come with developing it.

And what is this "change the culture" talk? Please explain more? Because all I have heard and seen is Jeff Hornacek talk about pushing the tempo and playing small ball. Like I said in an earlier post, the Suns have been doing that for years. How is that changing the culture? It looks like they are continuing on the same path the Suns have been on for the last few years, getting those # 14 picks...

You don't see the culture changing? We are getting players that are hungry to win, the coaches are pushing those players to perform at their best, and we are turning a losing team into a solid winning team. In one offseason we changed a 25 win team into a 48 win team, and we didn't add any superstars. Not even mentioning that our second best player missed half of the season.

Why are you so stuck on drafting position? Our best player was 46th. So you'd rather have Thabeet over Nash? Kobe? M Gasol? Moreover, it seems easier to get the better draftees after their rookie deal, when they have had time to mature.

Oh well, you seem hell bent on being a sour pill.

[Saberestar]

Regarding Bledsoe...

any reports to when they are going to make another offer? It's been pretty hush hush.

Paul Coro

Neither side wants negotiating made public so talks are very guarded. Without a competitor, the Suns don't have to improve offer.

https://mobile.twitter.com/paulcoro/sta ... 0497933312

[WeekapaugGroove]

Miami did pretty well the last few years playing small ball with a stretch 5.

That is a poor comparison and you know it. Just because it worked for Miami with a big 3 that included Bosh, Wade, and Lebron, who is the best player in the league, doesn't mean the Suns are going to have any success with their Bledsoe and Dragic small ball. It didn't work with prime Nash, Amare, and Marion, so how are inferior players going to take us further playing the same system?

I think the current regime values bigs. Heck they took a center with the 5th pick last year. If they could aquire a good big I'm sure they would be all over it. Those guys are hard to come by.

Also keep in mind that the NBA game has evolved to a more guard oriented league with the new rules that don't alow hand checking. Teams in general are playing faster. Heck this current version of the spurs uses a lot of the dantoni era principles.

Sent from my SM-N900V using RealGM Forums mobile app

[tgtm_24]

I've always envisioned Amare back in the desert. Coming back for the medical staff and the fans

Much like Amare, I can't defend this post.

huh? There's nothing to defend.

That's kinda the point.

[Scutt]

.

Oh well, you seem hell bent on being a sour pill.

I see it as you are either building for championship or you are competing for a championship, you never want to be the team that is happy to be in the middle of the pack. I don't see how we are building toward a championship right now, we seem to be building towards an 8th seed and I am sour on that. I want more than anything for the Suns to get a franchise player and build a team around him. I think the draft is our best hope at that, it my opinion and I will hold to it. I don't want to watch us be a perennial lower seed playoff team ever year that simply pins all our hopes on a disgruntled star wanting to choose the Suns.

Bottom line, we don't have a franchise player yet, so I see why we need to be so enthralled with simply making the playoffs, let alone making a deep run when we simply don't have the pieces to do so.

[bwoolf2]

Just need to make it 4 years 52 million and call it day, lets them save face and is goodwill so Bledsoe feels like he got a better deal than Curry and Lowery and the extra million a year wont change anything for the Suns organization.

[tgtm_24]

Guys Tolliver will play AT LEAST 15 minutes. IMO he will play 20 mins.

Agreed. Particularly as Kieff has shown he can pick up fouls at a rapid rate and an ejection as well!

[bwgood77]

WE ARE NOT THAT YOUNG!! The Suns average age for their rotation players LAST YEAR was 26.1 years old, putting us right in the middle of the pack, but keep telling yourself we are a young and upcoming team, whatever helps you sleep.

What teams that won over 45 games were younger than us other than OKC and maybe Toronto? Our team should only get better. None of these guys have hit their prime yet.

Most of the teams that are younger than us are younger for a very bad reason. Because they have sucked for SO long that all of their decent players want out and they continue to suck and have crap teams year after year.

I don't know what your obsession with Archie is (the 26th pick who was a complete bust in college) and why you think McDonough doesn't want or try to get an all star big man. It's certainly not for a lack of trying. He drafted who he thought was the best center with the 5th pick, and then traded for a 2nd year center and started him. This is exactly what it sounds like you want with Archie.

[bwgood77]

Miami did pretty well the last few years playing small ball with a stretch 5.

That is a poor comparison and you know it. Just because it worked for Miami with a big 3 that included Bosh, Wade, and Lebron, who is the best player in the league, doesn't mean the Suns are going to have any success with their Bledsoe and Dragic small ball. It didn't work with prime Nash, Amare, and Marion, so how are inferior players going to take us further playing the same system?

That goes back to my point about Superstars usually win championships and style of play doesn't matter. Miami won it because of their superstars, and actually lost the first year in the finals when they tried to play more traditionally.

[tgtm_24]

What's happened with Barbosa?

[bigfoot]

^ Regular season wins and regular season record don't mean anything when it comes to the playoffs. Playing run and gun with a bunch of guards, living and dying by the three ball, and having no real skilled big man is not how you make deep playoff runs. As we stand now, this team will try and fight tooth and nail, over playing vets, just to sneak in as the 8th seed. If it were a bunch of young guys doing it, then I would be all for it and super excited, but like I said we were not a young team last year, our average age was 26 in terms of rotation players.

Meanwhile Frye and Okafur and Barbosa (all 30-31) will not be on the team this year. I would think our average age drops to about 24 or 25. The average age for NBA champions is right around 29. Young teams don't win championships.

[bwoolf2]

[/quote
Scutt wrote:
WE ARE NOT THAT YOUNG!! The Suns average age for their rotation players LAST YEAR was 26.1 years old, putting us right in the middle of the pack, but keep telling yourself we are a young and upcoming team, whatever helps you sleep.]

Im not sure where you are getting that average, but obviously we are younger this year. Im pretty sure that included Gortat and Frye who are no longer on the team so at least give accurate info for this year and not last year with a few older players that are no longer with the team.