2021-22 Season/Offseason Speculation

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

Yeah!
I honestly don't really have any issues with our projected seed as I personally have us in the 3-5 range. And ( not to inflame anyone) but also a 3rd round exit IF we catch injuries at the wrong time and don't add a significant piece for our final roster spot. I don't view Thaddeus Young as a legitimate x factor or needle mover either in that context by the way. But would understand the trade interest for our front office in being able to clear 15 million in salary prior to extensions.

But back to the point, My issue is predominantly in that we have almost no categorical representation at all for our team in multiple award contention such as MVP, DPOTY, 6THMOTY, MIP. Also Williams has now fallen all the way to 6th in coach of the year voting. Given our meteoric rise from obscurity last season, it just feels like an unecessary slight to our team/ players. Or simply gross negligence in considering our monumental (historic) by current nba standards progression from a lottery team to a finals team.

For me, Having them exclude our players from such considerations infers that what we accomplished was an anomaly or situational abberation. I just feel that we should recieve some sort of legitimate recognition for our recent ascent back to relevance, As any other franchise that experienced such achievements would. Other NBA media entities seem capable of this assessment. But ESPN has just really become a subpar disappointment in contrast to how they used to operate.

Honestly though, I don't see why anyone would think our guys have a shot at any of the individual awards next season. Maaaybe Cam Jo for MIP or either Cam for 6MOY.

Bridges can't be DPOY averaging if he's averaging 2 stocks, and Ayton can't get DPOY averaging 1.8 stocks. Counting stats DO matter, and not just for awards. They matter because they freaking matter. You can be a lockdown defender and also steal other teams' possessions. Live ball turnovers (ie steals) give you the highest percentage looks going the other way. And just to say it, IMO, FWIW, Ayton is the most valuable defensive player on our roster.

Paul ain't getting MVP putting up the stats he put up last season, and it's hard to see those increasing - especially considering he should get fewer minutes in favor of Payne. Booker ain't getting MVP when the only way he stands out statistically is in PPG. If he wants MVP, he'll need to start hitting threes at a 45% clip on high volume, and we'll need 60+ wins.

COTY goes to the coach whose team surprises most to the upside. We ain't cinderellas no more. So for Monty to get COTY, we'll need the best record in the league - and even that won't guarantee it.

Yeah, I agree with most of this...maybe not quite as much with stocks if they effectively show we are loads better on defense when they are on the floor and they guard the best players extremely effectively.

Guys who chase blocks (Whiteside for example) or steals (maybe off the top of my head someone like Oubre..not as a great example) often get out of defensive position trying to gamble too much and it hurts their effectiviness.

I think DFG% and contesting more shots, effectively switching, etc, is more important then getting 2 blocks a game rather than 1. And always staying in front of your guy, like Bridges does, can be important. They may still get their points but on far worse efficiency which makes a huge difference when they are taking many more possessions/shots to get those points hurting their team. Bridges may have gotten fewer steals than before but also suddenly got voted awfully close to an all defensive team.

Oh, I agree with you 100%. Whiteside sucks. I'm just saying that if you're talking DPOY, you're not ONLY talking about a lockdown defender, of which there are admittedly few, and they are extremely valuable. But All-Defense/DPOY types are lockdown defenders who ALSO make those impact plays. Mikal and Ayton aren't there. Embiid is. Thybulle is. Mikal>Thybulle because the court is 94 feet long, not 47, but that's beside the point.

... Then again, a lot of people think Simmons is a DPOY-type, though he only gets 2.2 stocks. I don't see it. Booker busts his @$$ on the reg. Thybulle's another story.

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

I don't see what more people expected out of Jones...or much more. We used most of our available space, preserved a little of the MLE and BAE (which we perhaps want available next year) but more importantly filled our two major holes people complained about not having a reliable big and rebounding/defense behind Ayton and having a better guard than Moore and company to be that 4th guard, and MOST importantly, getting killer deals for Payne and Paul. What do people expect? It's not like we have a ton of cap space. No other teams had major needle moving moves..I think the Lakers got worse, a few teams made marginal moves. GS maybe the best, but not much else. I think the teams retaining solid contributors like the Clippers and us while plugging a few holes are teams that might be underrated on moves because they didn't try to fix something that wasn't broken.

Whoa! Lakers worse? That's a hot take.

[bwgood77]

Having said all that, I do fear if we don't get back to to the finals, or even the WCF, even if our team is getting better, but other teams are healthier, Paul regresses a bit (and lets be honest, he was the primary reason for our ascension), there will be all sorts of blame. At times with success expectations get a little TOO high and people will think major changes then need to be made (though we will need that future PG which has been my biggest complaint). Like it or not....the excuses you see from other teams, with injuries helping us, you can't deny injuries to AD, Murray (to lesser extent, we still easily beat them) but maybe most important, to Kawhi, helped us. I mean look at all the complaints we have for not making more moves when we got to the finals and BARELY lost to the Bucks, who have been the best team in the NBA the last few years but were new to the playoffs having to get over that hump.

I don't think we beat the Clips with Kawhi. He has been the best playoff player over the last few years, and we barely hung on in game 1, luckily win game 2 on the Valleyoop...we were very lucky it wasn't 1-1, with them taking game 3 in dramatic fashion like they did. Then we also barely pulled out a game 4 win.

To me, there would have been no shame losing to the healthy Clips though, as I thought they were the best team going into the playoffs, our toughest potential opponent, and the majority of our team were playing in their first playoffs.

I know there will inevitably be a lot of blame thrown around, because it is unlikely we have quite the playoff we did last year, even if we are better, simply because other teams are healthier and the conference is better. Even though I don't particularly like the Lakers moves, if healthy they will be way better. GS will be way better. Even Minnesota, who we even had a tough time with, likely is a lot better...probably not a playoff team but will have a higher win total impacting how remaining WC wins are distributed.

Memphis will be a lot better if JJJ and Ja stay healthy. Probably Dallas if they don't get hit hard by COVID again, etc.

We exceeded the vast majority of expectations of people here, and that doesn't mean we get back to the finals again, even if a stronger team. It rarely happens except on those loaded LeBron teams in a weaker EC and loaded teams like the Warriors were along with playoff battled teams like the Lakers a decade ago or the Spurs over the years.

[bwgood77]

I don't see what more people expected out of Jones...or much more. We used most of our available space, preserved a little of the MLE and BAE (which we perhaps want available next year) but more importantly filled our two major holes people complained about not having a reliable big and rebounding/defense behind Ayton and having a better guard than Moore and company to be that 4th guard, and MOST importantly, getting killer deals for Payne and Paul. What do people expect? It's not like we have a ton of cap space. No other teams had major needle moving moves..I think the Lakers got worse, a few teams made marginal moves. GS maybe the best, but not much else. I think the teams retaining solid contributors like the Clippers and us while plugging a few holes are teams that might be underrated on moves because they didn't try to fix something that wasn't broken.

Whoa! Lakers worse? That's a hot take.

I have said continually here and on the GB that I believe their moves made them worse, though I think they will be a better team due to health.

Not a big fan of a Westbrook/LeBron fit, and I am not as high on all these 2013 all stars like Melo and Dwight. Other than that they added marginal rotation guys...maybe Nunn the best, but he wasn't exactly lighting it on fire in Miami. Monk was like a fringe rotation guy in Charlotte and then you have guys like Ellington, etc.

To me they lost a FAR better supporting cast. First and foremost by far their best two defensive guards who also happened to be their best 3 pt shooters, both over 40% in KCP and Caruso. Then they lost Schroder who was a reliable scorer when needed. Then you have a very solid player in Harrell, last year's 6th man, and also Kuzma, who I don't like, and he is the worst to me of these 5, but still better than most of the guys they added.

I think people underestimate losing those 3 pt shooting defensive guards and overrate adding a bad shooter in Westbrook who's strengths are assists and rebounds, something they don't necessarily need, as LeBron should be the primary ball handler and with their Cs, AD and LeBron, they don't need his rebounds.

Monk and Nunn will be ok, but personally I would MUCH MUCH prefer Caruso and KCP, great shooters and defenders.

[Ghost of Kleine]

Spoiler:

Doesnt seem that disrespectful to be ranked 3rd lol considering the team made minimal upgrades this off-season.
If doing the least was a person James Jones would be it.

Yeah!
I honestly don't really have any issues with our projected seed as I personally have us in the 3-5 range. And ( not to inflame anyone) but also a 3rd round exit IF we catch injuries at the wrong time and don't add a significant piece for our final roster spot. I don't view Thaddeus Young as a legitimate x factor or needle mover either in that context by the way. But would understand the trade interest for our front office in being able to clear 15 million in salary prior to extensions.

But back to the point, My issue is predominantly in that we have almost no categorical representation at all for our team in multiple award contention such as MVP, DPOTY, 6THMOTY, MIP. Also Williams has now fallen all the way to 6th in coach of the year voting. Given our meteoric rise from obscurity last season, it just feels like an unecessary slight to our team/ players. Or simply gross negligence in considering our monumental (historic) by current nba standards progression from a lottery team to a finals team.

For me, Having them exclude our players from such considerations infers that what we accomplished was an anomaly or situational abberation. I just feel that we should recieve some sort of legitimate recognition for our recent ascent back to relevance, As any other franchise that experienced such achievements would. Other NBA media entities seem capable of this assessment. But ESPN has just really become a subpar disappointment in contrast to how they used to operate.

Honestly though, I don't see why anyone would think our guys have a shot at any of the individual awards next season. Maaaybe Cam Jo for MIP or either Cam for 6MOY.

I can understand your sentiment man.
However, I think the point in my post that most people are continually overlooking is not that I essentially expect them to WIN THE AWARDS, But the perspective of disrespect is in that they're seemingly aren't any suns players even represented on 3 of the 5 lists at all. And the two lists that we do have actual representation on, we're seemingly at the very bottom of the list respectively! It's almost like insinuating that our achievements last season were a blatant aberration!! Is it so misplaced to expect even a small modicum of recognition for our recent success?? And with consideration to 6th man of the year, Given the role/ impact that Cam Payne provided for us in our playoff/finals run, As well as what Cam Johnson showed over the last two finals series, Shouldn't either Cam at the very least be in consideration rather than no suns player receiving any votes at all?

Bridges can't be DPOY if he's averaging 2 stocks, and Ayton can't get DPOY averaging 1.8 stocks. Counting stats DO matter, and not just for awards. They matter because they freaking matter. You can be a lockdown defender and also steal other teams' possessions. Live ball turnovers (ie steals) give you the highest percentage looks going the other way. And just to say it, IMO, FWIW, Ayton is the most valuable defensive player on our roster.

Again, I'm not upset with the assesment that our players are not expected to actually win the awards, But rather being excluded from the list entirely ( Other than Ayton) who is placed at the bottom of the list, Despite the fact that just last season he was our key defensive anchor for our run that saw us beat many of the wests' top playoff teams. And of the remaining players outside of their top 7 that recieved votes: Paul George, Myles Turner, DeAndre Ayton, Jrue Holiday, Clint Capela. Is Bridges really carry that much of a disparity in terms of defensive impact to be legitimately excluded from being anywhere on that list entirely?

Paul ain't getting MVP putting up the stats he put up last season, and it's hard to see those increasing - especially considering he should get fewer minutes in favor of Payne. Booker ain't getting MVP when the only way he stands out statistically is in PPG. If he wants MVP, he'll need to start hitting threes at a 45% clip on high volume, and we'll need 60+ wins.

Of course taking into consideration that Paul was dealing with injuries throughout the season (playoffs) Is it really that far fetched IF he's able to once again lead us to a finals return ( Or Booker for that matter) that either should at the very least be a consideration on the list for that award (regardless of winning it or not). And Booker has improved aspects of his game every off season (including defense) which almost no one truly expected him to do! Whose to say that he wouldn't/couldn't once again make another jump categorically/ statistically? Especially after finally tasting the finals and getting so very close to an actual championship. I think the internal fire is there, And the hunger has grown since that experience.

COTY goes to the coach whose team surprises most to the upside. We ain't cinderellas no more. So for Monty to get COTY, we'll need the best record in the league - and even that won't guarantee it.

IF the assessment is truly, as you yourself indicated based predominantly upon the premise of "The coach whose team surprises most to the upside" Then why has Williams fallen all the way to the 6th spot, Whilst coaches like Steve Nash (Nets), ranked 2nd on the list And Quinn Snyder ( Jazz ) ranked 4th on potential coach of the year? Honestly, What would be so surprising about the Nets super team loaded with 3 MVP level players and a total of 5 all stars on an absurdly loaded roster to have them ranked #2 on the list? More surprising would be if they somehow weren't one of the NBA s' top 2 teams next season.

And why are the Jazz ranked ahead of us on the list than us in terms of coaches likely to surprisingly do well next season when they just had the NBA s' best record last season, Didn't experience any significant roster turnover. And by all accounts, Only added further legitimate depth in free agency. So I'll ask again, How is either team legitimately ranked ahead of us on that list when it shouldn't at all be surprising to anyone if they're ( as well as coaches by extension) wildly successful this upcoming season. Especially when considering their respective depth and recent records. If anything, we're more of a wildcard by comparison given Saric being out, Being thin still at the 4, Pauls' age and injury history, As well as our youth. As indicated by our seeding assessment. Taking these factors into consideration, Monty once again helping us to be successful and somewhat replicate our recent success from last season should emphatically be considered a bigger surprise. These other two teams SHOULD be expected to have greater success more easily than us. So based upon the premise you mentioned, Both should be behind Williams on that list as we're obviously not expected to be as successful as either of those two teams. And neither of those teams' success should be at all surprising in contrast to ours. If we succeed it'll be deemed surprising or shocking to some. Those two teams it's much more expected!

[Slim Charless]

Spoiler:

Yeah!
I honestly don't really have any issues with our projected seed as I personally have us in the 3-5 range. And ( not to inflame anyone) but also a 3rd round exit IF we catch injuries at the wrong time and don't add a significant piece for our final roster spot. I don't view Thaddeus Young as a legitimate x factor or needle mover either in that context by the way. But would understand the trade interest for our front office in being able to clear 15 million in salary prior to extensions.

But back to the point, My issue is predominantly in that we have almost no categorical representation at all for our team in multiple award contention such as MVP, DPOTY, 6THMOTY, MIP. Also Williams has now fallen all the way to 6th in coach of the year voting. Given our meteoric rise from obscurity last season, it just feels like an unecessary slight to our team/ players. Or simply gross negligence in considering our monumental (historic) by current nba standards progression from a lottery team to a finals team.

For me, Having them exclude our players from such considerations infers that what we accomplished was an anomaly or situational abberation. I just feel that we should recieve some sort of legitimate recognition for our recent ascent back to relevance, As any other franchise that experienced such achievements would. Other NBA media entities seem capable of this assessment. But ESPN has just really become a subpar disappointment in contrast to how they used to operate.

Honestly though, I don't see why anyone would think our guys have a shot at any of the individual awards next season. Maaaybe Cam Jo for MIP or either Cam for 6MOY.

I can understand your sentiment man.
However, I think the point in my post that most people are continually overlooking is not that I essentially expect them to WIN THE AWARDS, But the perspective of disrespect is in that they're seemingly aren't any suns players even represented on 3 of the 5 lists at all. And the two lists that we do have actual representation on, we're seemingly at the very bottom of the list respectively! It's almost like insinuating that our achievements last season were a blatant aberration!! Is it so misplaced to expect even a small modicum of recognition for our recent success?? And with consideration to 6th man of the year, Given the role/ impact that Cam Payne provided for us in our playoff/finals run, As well as what Cam Johnson showed over the last two finals series, Shouldn't either Cam at the very least be in consideration rather than no suns player receiving any votes at all?

Bridges can't be DPOY if he's averaging 2 stocks, and Ayton can't get DPOY averaging 1.8 stocks. Counting stats DO matter, and not just for awards. They matter because they freaking matter. You can be a lockdown defender and also steal other teams' possessions. Live ball turnovers (ie steals) give you the highest percentage looks going the other way. And just to say it, IMO, FWIW, Ayton is the most valuable defensive player on our roster.

Again, I'm not upset with the assesment that our players are not expected to actually win the awards, But rather being excluded from the list entirely ( Other than Ayton) who is placed at the bottom of the list, Despite the fact that just last season he was our key defensive anchor for our run that saw us beat many of the wests' top playoff teams. And of the remaining players outside of their top 7 that recieved votes: Paul George, Myles Turner, DeAndre Ayton, Jrue Holiday, Clint Capela. Is Bridges really carry that much of a disparity in terms of defensive impact to be legitimately excluded from being anywhere on that list entirely?

Paul ain't getting MVP putting up the stats he put up last season, and it's hard to see those increasing - especially considering he should get fewer minutes in favor of Payne. Booker ain't getting MVP when the only way he stands out statistically is in PPG. If he wants MVP, he'll need to start hitting threes at a 45% clip on high volume, and we'll need 60+ wins.

Of course taking into consideration that Paul was dealing with injuries throughout the season (playoffs) Is it really that far fetched IF he's able to once again lead us to a finals return ( Or Booker for that matter) that either should at the very least be a consideration on the list for that award (regardless of winning it or not). And Booker has improved aspects of his game every off season (including defense) which almost no one truly expected him to do! Whose to say that he wouldn't/couldn't once again make another jump categorically/ statistically? Especially after finally tasting the finals and getting so very close to an actual championship. I think the internal fire is there, And the hunger has grown since that experience.

COTY goes to the coach whose team surprises most to the upside. We ain't cinderellas no more. So for Monty to get COTY, we'll need the best record in the league - and even that won't guarantee it.

IF the assessment is truly, as you yourself indicated based predominantly upon the premise of "The coach whose team surprises most to the upside" Then why has Williams fallen all the way to the 6th spot, Whilst coaches like Steve Nash (Nets), ranked 2nd on the list And Quinn Snyder ( Jazz ) ranked 4th on potential coach of the year? Honestly, What would be so surprising about the Nets super team loaded with 3 MVP level players and a total of 5 all stars on an absurdly loaded roster to have them ranked #2 on the list? More surprising would be if they somehow weren't one of the NBA s' top 2 teams next season.

And why are the Jazz ranked ahead of us on the list than us in terms of coaches likely to surprisingly do well next season when they just had the NBA s' best record last season, Didn't experience any significant roster turnover. And by all accounts, Only added further legitimate depth in free agency. So I'll ask again, How is either team legitimately ranked ahead of us on that list when it shouldn't at all be surprising to anyone if they're ( as well as coaches by extension) wildly successful this upcoming season. Especially when considering their respective depth and recent records. If anything, we're more of a wildcard by comparison given Saric being out, Being thin still at the 4, Pauls' age and injury history, As well as our youth. As indicated by our seeding assessment. Taking these factors into consideration, Monty once again helping us to be successful and somewhat replicate our recent success from last season should emphatically be considered a bigger surprise. These other two teams SHOULD be expected to have greater success more easily than us. So based upon the premise you mentioned, Both should be behind Williams on that list as we're obviously not expected to be as successful as either of those two teams. And neither of those teams' success should be at all surprising in contrast to ours. If we succeed it'll be deemed surprising or shocking to some. Those two teams it's much more expected!

[TeamTragic]

Eric Gordon available for trade.

Do we have any interest in him?

[Ghost of Kleine]

Eric Gordon available for trade.

Do we have any interest in him?

Although his history with Paul and familiarity with both Paul and Williams is slightly intriguing, the honest answer is probably not at his current salary of 18 million. Although his salary for 2023 is unguaranteed. So essentially ( IF we had the salary to send out) that we'd actually be willing to send out to match, it would clear up to 18 million off our books. The problem being is that we could realistically only match salary one of two ways I believe:

1- Send out both Saric and Crowder. I don't see us sending out Crowder for Gordon to play the backup two at 18 million. Plus then we'd be even thinner in our frontcourt.

2- Send out Saric/ Smith/ Shamet. But again we'd be really super thin at various positions. We just can't afford a 3 for 1 trade with our roster currently being at 14 players currently. His salary is just too steep!

[Ghost of Kleine]

Bryan Kalbrosky (@BryanKalbrosky) Tweeted:
I asked 30 of the most trusted minds in basketball, including dozens of NBA executives, how they felt about composite, all-in-one metrics. Is there one we should be citing in our evaluations?

This is one of the favorites I've ever written for @HoopsHype:
https://t.co/o9g6frO6TC

Read on Twitter

?s=20

[TeamTragic]

Eric Gordon available for trade.

Do we have any interest in him?

Although his history with Paul and familiarity with both Paul and Williams is slightly intriguing, the honest answer is probably not at his current salary of 18 million. Although his salary for 2023 is unguaranteed. So essentially ( IF we had the salary to send out) that we'd actually be willing to send out to match, it would clear up to 18 million off our books. The problem being is that we could realistically only match salary one of two ways I believe:

1- Send out both Saric and Crowder. I don't see us sending out Crowder for Gordon to play the backup two at 18 million. Plus then we'd be even thinner in our frontcourt.

2- Send out Saric/ Smith/ Shamet. But again we'd be really super thin at various positions. We just can't afford a 3 for 1 trade with our roster currently being at 14 players currently. His salary is just too steep!

Zero interest in moving Crowder. Maybe Saric/Smith/filler if we don't get Young?

[Saberestar]

Eric Gordon available for trade.

Do we have any interest in him?

Although his history with Paul and familiarity with both Paul and Williams is slightly intriguing, the honest answer is probably not at his current salary of 18 million. Although his salary for 2023 is unguaranteed. So essentially ( IF we had the salary to send out) that we'd actually be willing to send out to match, it would clear up to 18 million off our books. The problem being is that we could realistically only match salary one of two ways I believe:

1- Send out both Saric and Crowder. I don't see us sending out Crowder for Gordon to play the backup two at 18 million. Plus then we'd be even thinner in our frontcourt.

2- Send out Saric/ Smith/ Shamet. But again we'd be really super thin at various positions. We just can't afford a 3 for 1 trade with our roster currently being at 14 players currently. His salary is just too steep!

Zero interest in moving Crowder. Maybe Saric/Smith/filler if we don't get Young?

I like Eric Gordon but we are set at his position.

With Shamet already on the roster we don't have minutes for him, both are too small to play SF and we have CP3/Payne/Payton at PG.

[bwoolf2]

Read on Twitter

?s=20

Where would y'all rank Cameron Johnson in a redraft?

It's laughable some of the people in front of cam including Horton tucker he hasn't been anywhere near as good.

And to have Dort that low as well he has been light years better than tht , herro who had a good rookie year and struggled since, top 5 for him

Which guys do you put him above? THT is pretty good though he can't shoot. Part of their reasoning might be the 4 year age difference since TNT is only 20. NAW had similar #s to Cam with more assists and steals and is two years younger. I think Herro is a bit overhyped but he has had better #s across the board and is 3 years younger.

Cam has impressed, but it's a pretty good list...I agree about THT though. I might move him one up based strictly on #s. I simply don't see enough of the other guys to not let my bias creep in. Cam was a solid pick and a few of those who went higher, specifically guys people on the board wanted, like Coby White and Jarrett Culver. But also guys like Rui, Hayes and Reddish went higher.

Herro was good his rookie year but wasn't good last year and is primarily a shooter only at this point, garland has been good but I am not a big fan of his game personally, Matisse is a good defender put pretty limited offensively and Barrett is the opposite he doesn't defend, outside of the top 2 you could make arguments a bunch of different ways.

But I would put Dort 3rd for me, ahead of all those guys Matisse hasn't been close to dort imo.

[bwoolf2]

I don't see what more people expected out of Jones...or much more. We used most of our available space, preserved a little of the MLE and BAE (which we perhaps want available next year) but more importantly filled our two major holes people complained about not having a reliable big and rebounding/defense behind Ayton and having a better guard than Moore and company to be that 4th guard, and MOST importantly, getting killer deals for Payne and Paul. What do people expect? It's not like we have a ton of cap space. No other teams had major needle moving moves..I think the Lakers got worse, a few teams made marginal moves. GS maybe the best, but not much else. I think the teams retaining solid contributors like the Clippers and us while plugging a few holes are teams that might be underrated on moves because they didn't try to fix something that wasn't broken.

Whoa! Lakers worse? That's a hot take.

I have said continually here and on the GB that I believe their moves made them worse, though I think they will be a better team due to health.

Not a big fan of a Westbrook/LeBron fit, and I am not as high on all these 2013 all stars like Melo and Dwight. Other than that they added marginal rotation guys...maybe Nunn the best, but he wasn't exactly lighting it on fire in Miami. Monk was like a fringe rotation guy in Charlotte and then you have guys like Ellington, etc.

To me they lost a FAR better supporting cast. First and foremost by far their best two defensive guards who also happened to be their best 3 pt shooters, both over 40% in KCP and Caruso. Then they lost Schroder who was a reliable scorer when needed. Then you have a very solid player in Harrell, last year's 6th man, and also Kuzma, who I don't like, and he is the worst to me of these 5, but still better than most of the guys they added.

I think people underestimate losing those 3 pt shooting defensive guards and overrate adding a bad shooter in Westbrook who's strengths are assists and rebounds, something they don't necessarily need, as LeBron should be the primary ball handler and with their Cs, AD and LeBron, they don't need his rebounds.

Monk and Nunn will be ok, but personally I would MUCH MUCH prefer Caruso and KCP, great shooters and defenders.

I 100 percent agree with BW here, obviously their health will make them better but they lost size, no way Davis holds up playing center they lost defense and their shooters are highly questionable.

[bwgood77]

Read on Twitter

This is an interesting survey with nba personnel about catch all statistics. I didn't realize until I got close to the end, that they are listed in preferrred order of popularity or how trusted they are.

Interestingly enough, the two at the top of the rankings are two I have not heard much of people citing,

Estimated Plus Minus (EPM) developed by Taylor Snarr at https://dunksandthrees.com/

and

Daily Plus Minus (DPM) developed by Kostya Medvedovsky at https://apanalytics.shinyapps.io/DARKO/

[bwgood77]

It's laughable some of the people in front of cam including Horton tucker he hasn't been anywhere near as good.

And to have Dort that low as well he has been light years better than tht , herro who had a good rookie year and struggled since, top 5 for him

Which guys do you put him above? THT is pretty good though he can't shoot. Part of their reasoning might be the 4 year age difference since TNT is only 20. NAW had similar #s to Cam with more assists and steals and is two years younger. I think Herro is a bit overhyped but he has had better #s across the board and is 3 years younger.

Cam has impressed, but it's a pretty good list...I agree about THT though. I might move him one up based strictly on #s. I simply don't see enough of the other guys to not let my bias creep in. Cam was a solid pick and a few of those who went higher, specifically guys people on the board wanted, like Coby White and Jarrett Culver. But also guys like Rui, Hayes and Reddish went higher.

Herro was good his rookie year but wasn't good last year and is primarily a shooter only at this point, garland has been good but I am not a big fan of his game personally, Matisse is a good defender put pretty limited offensively and Barrett is the opposite he doesn't defend, outside of the top 2 you could make arguments a bunch of different ways.

But I would put Dort 3rd for me, ahead of all those guys Matisse hasn't been close to dort imo.

I didn't think Herro was very good last year either, and he had regressed, but looked up his #s and they were pretty good across the board, better than Cam in most areas.

I didn't look up Garland's, but have before, and I know many are very high on him. Most of these guys are way younger than them though. I don't necessarily think the list is a ranking purely based on current talent, although it's almost fitting for that, but just like the draft, age and upside is considered.

[lilfishi22]

I don't really want to play the "what if" game unless he does not get the extension. If he does, it's moot. I don't think luxury tax will be a big issue outside of next year, the first year the new contracts for Ayton and Bridges kick in. But the next year, there is no Jae, no Saric (assuming we keep him), and if we did trade for Thad, no Smith (and probably no Thad as he would get more money elsewhere next summer).

Paul is also VERY likely gone after 2 years and has a $15 million cap hit to help absorb a Cam 2nd contract amount.

Sarver may be worried about luxury tax, and it is dumb to get too far into it or have repeater years, but he also has the gambling in the arena and will likely have full arenas for the first time in awhile..as well as playoff revenue, etc...this is a HUGE difference in revenue. He also got the taste of being a contender after being one of the worst teams for the better part of a decade.

Not sure if people realize, but if you let Mikal walk due to another offer, it's not like we suddenly have that much money to spend elsewhere...we would still be far enough over the cap that it might only drop us to like $10-15 million under the cap with no MLE, so it's like losing an elite starter for almost nothing. Now you could do a S&T but you very rarely get too much back in that circumstance, and if you were willing to take a big salary back I doubt you are getting nearly the caliber of player. There could be a pick involved, but not sure we are concerned with those right now.

+1

I don't see tax being as big of an issue as some make it out to be. During the SSOL days, Sarver had just purchased the Suns and pouring millions and millions following the purchase just to fund the roster and operations. It's been well over a decade since and he's more than recouped the value and operational expenses he put into running that SSOL team and I think we're well positioned with the added revenue sources you've mentioned to go into the tax for a couple of seasons if we continue to be an elite contender.

I love the positivity guys and hope you're right but facts and facts and everything we've seen from Sarver has shown that he won't be paying all this tax. I forgot the #### but someone laid it out earlier this summer and threw price tag to resign everyone is MASSIVE.

Ghost is right and it's a very good question if we can trust Sarver to pay up. I don't need to remind long time posters like yourselves that only 2 short years ago we were having conversations about Sarver being the worst(and cheapest) owner in sports. Now, everyone thinks he gonna open up the wallet and make it rain like Nelly in a strip club. I'm hesitant to believe that.

Why haven't we gotten the Ayton extension yet? Even the haters of Ayton, admit that he's likely due a max....and yet. Nothing. Every Suns fan needs to be very concerned about our cheapass owner. Now, I don't think there's anyway that DA is going anywhere, but this Mikal situation is something that can break bad.

No doubt there is a lot of trust and faith put in old Bob Sarver. We've only ever paid luxury tax 3 times (2007-2009) and we know Sarver had forced a couple of financially focused moves during that time which hurt our championship chances. After the 2012 season, we've basically been in the bottom 5 in player salary until this past season where we had the #22 highest salary. Even this upcoming season, we're ranked 20 in salary. For comparison, the top contenders like the Lakers, Nets, Bucks and I suppose Utah are ranked 4, 2, 5 and 6. FWIW the Clippers are #3 and the Warriors are #1.

My point is basically that Sarver has had it good from a financial standpoint. We've gotten tax payments over the past decade from those teams contending while we're running a very lean roster. He's had more than enough time to recover from his big purchase a decade and a half ago and I trust he'll do the right thing to pay the tax while CP3 is on the roster. No one knows whether Sarver is actually going to do it or not but he's said he's expecting to pay the tax to win a title.

As for the Ayton extension, I really have no concern over that. Mikal is a little different but based on what Sarver has said himself, I expect he'll retain talent because that's how you win.

[Slim Charless]

+1

I don't see tax being as big of an issue as some make it out to be. During the SSOL days, Sarver had just purchased the Suns and pouring millions and millions following the purchase just to fund the roster and operations. It's been well over a decade since and he's more than recouped the value and operational expenses he put into running that SSOL team and I think we're well positioned with the added revenue sources you've mentioned to go into the tax for a couple of seasons if we continue to be an elite contender.

I love the positivity guys and hope you're right but facts and facts and everything we've seen from Sarver has shown that he won't be paying all this tax. I forgot the #### but someone laid it out earlier this summer and threw price tag to resign everyone is MASSIVE.

Ghost is right and it's a very good question if we can trust Sarver to pay up. I don't need to remind long time posters like yourselves that only 2 short years ago we were having conversations about Sarver being the worst(and cheapest) owner in sports. Now, everyone thinks he gonna open up the wallet and make it rain like Nelly in a strip club. I'm hesitant to believe that.

Why haven't we gotten the Ayton extension yet? Even the haters of Ayton, admit that he's likely due a max....and yet. Nothing. Every Suns fan needs to be very concerned about our cheapass owner. Now, I don't think there's anyway that DA is going anywhere, but this Mikal situation is something that can break bad.

No doubt there is a lot of trust and faith put in old Bob Sarver. We've only ever paid luxury tax 3 times (2007-2009) and we know Sarver had forced a couple of financially focused moves during that time which hurt our championship chances. After the 2012 season, we've basically been in the bottom 5 in player salary until this past season where we had the #22 highest salary. Even this upcoming season, we're ranked 20 in salary. For comparison, the top contenders like the Lakers, Nets, Bucks and I suppose Utah are ranked 4, 2, 5 and 6. FWIW the Clippers are #3 and the Warriors are #1.

My point is basically that Sarver has had it good from a financial standpoint. We've gotten tax payments over the past decade from those teams contending while we're running a very lean roster. He's had more than enough time to recover from his big purchase a decade and a half ago and I trust he'll do the right thing to pay the tax while CP3 is on the roster. No one knows whether Sarver is actually going to do it or not but he's said he's expecting to pay the tax to win a title.

As for the Ayton extension, I really have no concern over that. Mikal is a little different but based on what Sarver has said himself, I expect he'll retain talent because that's how you win.

Sarver has no doubt learned some lessons-hence why he paid CP3. Though even there Chris took a VERY team friendly deal. There's no way that DeAndre is seeing free agency, so as I said I'm not worried about that. I am very curious as to what the hold up is when we all know he's getting the max. If anything waiting makes it worse as if DA makes 1st team or gets DPOTY (small chance, I know) then he's eligible for the Luka-supermax. Just get it done already.

Mikal I remain very suspicious about. I don't trust him to pay what Bridges will want-which imo is 25+ a year. This is even more so an issue when we have Cam waiting in the wings.

[Saberestar]

I love the positivity guys and hope you're right but facts and facts and everything we've seen from Sarver has shown that he won't be paying all this tax. I forgot the #### but someone laid it out earlier this summer and threw price tag to resign everyone is MASSIVE.

Ghost is right and it's a very good question if we can trust Sarver to pay up. I don't need to remind long time posters like yourselves that only 2 short years ago we were having conversations about Sarver being the worst(and cheapest) owner in sports. Now, everyone thinks he gonna open up the wallet and make it rain like Nelly in a strip club. I'm hesitant to believe that.

Why haven't we gotten the Ayton extension yet? Even the haters of Ayton, admit that he's likely due a max....and yet. Nothing. Every Suns fan needs to be very concerned about our cheapass owner. Now, I don't think there's anyway that DA is going anywhere, but this Mikal situation is something that can break bad.

No doubt there is a lot of trust and faith put in old Bob Sarver. We've only ever paid luxury tax 3 times (2007-2009) and we know Sarver had forced a couple of financially focused moves during that time which hurt our championship chances. After the 2012 season, we've basically been in the bottom 5 in player salary until this past season where we had the #22 highest salary. Even this upcoming season, we're ranked 20 in salary. For comparison, the top contenders like the Lakers, Nets, Bucks and I suppose Utah are ranked 4, 2, 5 and 6. FWIW the Clippers are #3 and the Warriors are #1.

My point is basically that Sarver has had it good from a financial standpoint. We've gotten tax payments over the past decade from those teams contending while we're running a very lean roster. He's had more than enough time to recover from his big purchase a decade and a half ago and I trust he'll do the right thing to pay the tax while CP3 is on the roster. No one knows whether Sarver is actually going to do it or not but he's said he's expecting to pay the tax to win a title.

As for the Ayton extension, I really have no concern over that. Mikal is a little different but based on what Sarver has said himself, I expect he'll retain talent because that's how you win.

Sarver has no doubt learned some lessons-hence why he paid CP3. Though even there Chris took a VERY team friendly deal. There's no way that DeAndre is seeing free agency, so as I said I'm not worried about that. I am very curious as to what the hold up is when we all know he's getting the max. If anything waiting makes it worse as if DA makes 1st team or gets DPOTY (small chance, I know) then he's eligible for the Luka-supermax. Just get it done already.

Mikal I remain very suspicious about. I don't trust him to pay what Bridges will want-which imo is 25+ a year. This is even more so an issue when we have Cam waiting in the wings.

Sarver made mistakes BUT those were made around 12-15 years ago. The man has paid everyone that we needed to pay for the last few years, he has been great since James Jones is our GM.

I don't give a **** about his management from so many years ago. He has said that he will pay our core and you have proof about that with CP3 and Payne's recent contracts.

Mikal will have a fair contract with us. A lot of fans were saying that Payne was going to get around $10M per year and things like that...and at the end of the day he signed a friendly contract (like CP3) because he is happy here. You can say the same about Mikal, he is happy, he loves Monty and James Jones, the chemistry on the team is great and he has a nice starting role.

I wouldn't be surprised if he signs a contract for $75M/4 years. But Sarver will pay him much more than that if needed, no doubt about it.

[Slim Charless]

No doubt there is a lot of trust and faith put in old Bob Sarver. We've only ever paid luxury tax 3 times (2007-2009) and we know Sarver had forced a couple of financially focused moves during that time which hurt our championship chances. After the 2012 season, we've basically been in the bottom 5 in player salary until this past season where we had the #22 highest salary. Even this upcoming season, we're ranked 20 in salary. For comparison, the top contenders like the Lakers, Nets, Bucks and I suppose Utah are ranked 4, 2, 5 and 6. FWIW the Clippers are #3 and the Warriors are #1.

My point is basically that Sarver has had it good from a financial standpoint. We've gotten tax payments over the past decade from those teams contending while we're running a very lean roster. He's had more than enough time to recover from his big purchase a decade and a half ago and I trust he'll do the right thing to pay the tax while CP3 is on the roster. No one knows whether Sarver is actually going to do it or not but he's said he's expecting to pay the tax to win a title.

As for the Ayton extension, I really have no concern over that. Mikal is a little different but based on what Sarver has said himself, I expect he'll retain talent because that's how you win.

Sarver has no doubt learned some lessons-hence why he paid CP3. Though even there Chris took a VERY team friendly deal. There's no way that DeAndre is seeing free agency, so as I said I'm not worried about that. I am very curious as to what the hold up is when we all know he's getting the max. If anything waiting makes it worse as if DA makes 1st team or gets DPOTY (small chance, I know) then he's eligible for the Luka-supermax. Just get it done already.

Mikal I remain very suspicious about. I don't trust him to pay what Bridges will want-which imo is 25+ a year. This is even more so an issue when we have Cam waiting in the wings.

Sarver made mistakes BUT those were made around 12-15 years ago. The man has paid everyone that we needed to pay for the last few years, he has been great since James Jones is our GM.

I don't give a **** about his management from so many years ago. He has said that he will pay our core and you have proof about that with CP3 and Payne's recent contracts.

Mikal will have a fair contract with us. A lot of fans were saying that Payne was going to get around $10M per year and things like that...and at the end of the day he signed a friendly contract (like CP3) because he is happy here. You can say the same about Mikal, he is happy, he loves Monty and James Jones, the chemistry on the team is great and he has a nice starting role.

I wouldn't be surprised if he signs a contract for $75M/4 years. But Sarver will pay him much more than that if needed, no doubt about it.

There's a big difference between them though. CP3 is at the end of HOF career that has made him 1 of the richest players in league history. I mean besides Lebron, who has made more in his playing career than Chris Paul?

Mikal is finishing up his rookie contract and this is his 1st chance to strike it rich. If we're letting him see RFA someone (NYC/DET/ORL) is giving him the max- and likely offering him the chance to be the main scorer. They need to get both deals done by the summer.

[sunsbg]

Mikal first option on offense, wow. 75/4 , no way, though I'd like to see comments on GB that he should fire his agent, which was the case with Payne.