The Boogie Watch

[lilfishi22]

Forget everything else, I'd rather have our pick this season than Cousins. Keep in mind, we have no guarantee he'll sign with us. He and Wall are close and if you were him, would you want to stay on a depleted Suns roster or join a very loaded Washington team? Cousins might be worth that kind of package if he's locked up for several years but in a league filled with cap space, having his Bird rights means very little IMO and that plus a year of ball is all we're really getting. No thanks.

I think it's a silly assumption to think we'll trade for him without some sort of guarantee, a gentleman's handshake even, that he'll resign. I know you'll bring up the fact that it's not contractually binding but he wouldn't have chosen the Suns (with Bledsoe) as one of two destinations he would like to play for if he isn't invested in playing with the team for more than a season. If he really wanted to play for the Wizards, he'd wait or force his way to the Wizards. It makes no sense for him to jump team to team. And if there's anything you can say about him is that he's a patient guy. He's been on a Kings team that's been nothing short of mediocre from the front office end since the beginning of his career. They've mismanaged his coaching, the roster and even draft picks and yet, he's still right there. I certainly don't view his ability to leave and choose the direction of his career as a lack of loyalty. Whatever team he does move to, I think he'll give them a fair shake in putting together a team on the floor.

[Zelaznyrules]

Forget everything else, I'd rather have our pick this season than Cousins. Keep in mind, we have no guarantee he'll sign with us. He and Wall are close and if you were him, would you want to stay on a depleted Suns roster or join a very loaded Washington team? Cousins might be worth that kind of package if he's locked up for several years but in a league filled with cap space, having his Bird rights means very little IMO and that plus a year of ball is all we're really getting. No thanks.

I think it's a silly assumption to think we'll trade for him without some sort of guarantee, a gentleman's handshake even, that he'll resign. I know you'll bring up the fact that it's not contractually binding but he wouldn't have chosen the Suns (with Bledsoe) as one of two destinations he would like to play for if he isn't invested in playing with the team for more than a season. If he really wanted to play for the Wizards, he'd wait or force his way to the Wizards. It makes no sense for him to jump team to team. And if there's anything you can say about him is that he's a patient guy. He's been on a Kings team that's been nothing short of mediocre from the front office end since the beginning of his career. They've mismanaged his coaching, the roster and even draft picks and yet, he's still right there. I certainly don't view his ability to leave and choose the direction of his career as a lack of loyalty. Whatever team he does move to, I think he'll give them a fair shake in putting together a team on the floor.

Yeah, see Antonio McDyess or Carlos Boozer. Can you not envision at least the possibility that he would come to the Suns with good intentions and change his mind when things don't go perfectly for him? And can you not at least envision the possibility that something might go wrong when either the Suns or Cousins is involved? Making this trade and than losing him to LA, New York or Washington would set us back many years.

[TeamTragic]

Guys, what is the endgame here? Do we honestly think that getting Bledsoe/Booker/PJ/Chriss/Boogie is that good of a team? With what it would take to get him, that team has:

- Absolutely, positively no bench
- A wildly inexperienced coach
- No pick this year (to add young, cheap talent)
- Soon to be no cap space with the impending Boogie extension (there is no chance that he takes a discount, which is, in most examples, crucial for the construction of a championship team--look at every recent championship, and there are star players across the board taking a significant discount early on.)

I understand the impulse completely-- a month ago I was all in on getting Boogie (for the right price). The Booker-Boogie combo was, in my (likely) biased mind, a sort of Shaq-Kobe-lite (fun fact, the age difference between Book/DMC and Shaq/Kobe is the same!), and that was very exciting.

In a vacuum, the Bledsoe/Booker/Boogie combo sounds incredible, and perhaps it is, with the right players. However, who are those right players? And even if they exist, and are available THIS free agency (as next would likely be too late), are they REALLY going to sign with us? WE are going to be the "most desirable team" for those players? And that is just in a vacuum! Consider the landscape of the league right now! There is no way that team can beat the Warriors or even the Spurs/Cavs in the next two, three, four years.

This is not the time to make "the splash". I do think Boogie is an incredible player, but he is still a question mark. He will not propel us, short-term or long-term, to championship contention. The West is too deep, and Devin is, as good as I think he is and will be, not ready. Chriss is even further- I think he could be a good player, but he's about 4 years (at least) from getting close to his peak (if he reaches it), and by that time Boogie is 30, and Bledsoe is probably further ravaged by knee injuries. This moves starts a ticking clock that I do not think will tick in our favor.

I know it is hard to be patient in this drought, I feel it too. However, we are so very close to having a near FULL core that can grow together and give us time to find the right vets and continue to make the right moves.

I think you are getting too far ahead in your thinking process. The league will be different once the new CBA hits. As McD has stated it has become increasingly difficult to acquire a star player and after the new CBA it might become impossible.

That means you need to draft a star player. Then you need to groom him and surround him with good players. There are too many variables that influence that process. This franchise needs a star player outside Bledsoe and we need that player right now.

We don't have the luxury afforded to most teams and even if you look at former champions (minus the Spurs) you will notice that every team is struggling. They have terrible or near terrible records and cannot even sign an upper tier free agent.

Just look at the Cavaliers and what they are doing with their franchise. Remember that they traded Wiggins for Love and now they are NBA Champions. We need Cousins and we need him right now for the future.

Whatever it takes to maximize our potential (i.e. keep Booker/Bender).

[nashrambler13]

I think you are getting too far ahead in your thinking process. The league will be different once the new CBA hits. As McD has stated it has become increasingly difficult to acquire a star player and after the new CBA it might become impossible.

That means you need to draft a star player. Then you need to groom him and surround him with good players. There are too many variables that influence that process. This franchise needs a star player outside Bledsoe and we need that player right now.

We don't have the luxury afforded to most teams and even if you look at former champions (minus the Spurs) you will notice that every team is struggling. They have terrible or near terrible records and cannot even sign an upper tier free agent.

Just look at the Cavaliers and what they are doing with their franchise. Remember that they traded Wiggins for Love and now they are NBA Champions. We need Cousins and we need him right now for the future.

Whatever it takes to maximize our potential (i.e. keep Booker/Bender).

I'd imagine "getting too far ahead" would probably be a fair criticism of my thinking process when it comes to forming an NBA team that can contend for a championship. Personally, I like to judge every player on whether or not they have a role on a championship team and whether or not that role works well the rest of the players we would or could have.

However, I imagine your criticism was more in relation to how the league will be shaped years from now. The criticism is well-founded, for sure; I think my perspective on the next few years is based on the assumption that the Warriors and Cavaliers* have several more years of dominance ahead, and the CBA does not change that. I could absolutely be wrong about this, I just don't know if putting our chips on the table right now when the idea of being a top team with this lineup is not guaranteed- the question "Would we really be THAT good?" is an important question to ask.

I'm with bwgood-- I don't think this vaults us into contention. I don't even think it vaults us into the conversation. Making this move leads us at least one relatively big move away (finding the right SF (it's not PJ) and reestablishing our bench) that would be even more difficult under the new CBA. This move essentially leads us to two very awkward windows:

1) When Booker and Chirss are too young
and
2) When Tyson is too old and Bledsoe's injuries have caught up to him.

I don't think either of those windows correlate with a championship window.

I think that the CBA is going to reward teams that draft extremely well, just like it has for every CBA. The only way, in my opinion, you are going to be separating from the rest of the pack of the NBA, is if our culture is so well put together that we are able to gather a strong core and convince them to take slight pay cuts to play with each other (a la the Spurs or the Heat). The new CBA will not hurt teams that build like the Spurs have, and this is not the Spurs move.

*btw, the Cavs example in your post seems out of place to me, as that team already had one of the greatest players of all time AND a solid #2. We have neither of those things as of now.

[lilfishi22]

Forget everything else, I'd rather have our pick this season than Cousins. Keep in mind, we have no guarantee he'll sign with us. He and Wall are close and if you were him, would you want to stay on a depleted Suns roster or join a very loaded Washington team? Cousins might be worth that kind of package if he's locked up for several years but in a league filled with cap space, having his Bird rights means very little IMO and that plus a year of ball is all we're really getting. No thanks.

I think it's a silly assumption to think we'll trade for him without some sort of guarantee, a gentleman's handshake even, that he'll resign. I know you'll bring up the fact that it's not contractually binding but he wouldn't have chosen the Suns (with Bledsoe) as one of two destinations he would like to play for if he isn't invested in playing with the team for more than a season. If he really wanted to play for the Wizards, he'd wait or force his way to the Wizards. It makes no sense for him to jump team to team. And if there's anything you can say about him is that he's a patient guy. He's been on a Kings team that's been nothing short of mediocre from the front office end since the beginning of his career. They've mismanaged his coaching, the roster and even draft picks and yet, he's still right there. I certainly don't view his ability to leave and choose the direction of his career as a lack of loyalty. Whatever team he does move to, I think he'll give them a fair shake in putting together a team on the floor.

Yeah, see Antonio McDyess or Carlos Boozer. Can you not envision at least the possibility that he would come to the Suns with good intentions and change his mind when things don't go perfectly for him? And can you not at least envision the possibility that something might go wrong when either the Suns or Cousins is involved? Making this trade and than losing him to LA, New York or Washington would set us back many years.

But of course, it's a risk. The difference is, you obviously view it as an obvious and unalterable inevitability; I don't. I think the VAST majority of NBA players, in particular star players know jumping team to team hurts their personal brand, hurts their stock around the NBA and they understand it takes time to be elite. For every McDyess and Boozer that's brought up, there's another 10 Goran Dragics and Carmelo Anthonys who were moved halfway into the season and resigned without a signed extension.

Here's the thing, a trade is between two parties and technically and contractually, the players involved have no say in where they go and whether they agree to a trade or not (there are some exceptions). But players, especially star players, always have some say through their GM or through the media. So even though contractually they can't control where they are traded to, they can certainly influence the direction. We can't talk to Cousins directly but we can make it known what our intentions with him on our team is and get feelers on whether he's likely to resign or not. Based on how likely he is to resign, we'll adjust how much we're willing to give up. If he's not likely to resign or it's 50/50 at best, the entire deal is likely off the table. If a deal gets done, I guarantee McD has done his due diligence.

[lilfishi22]

I'd imagine "getting too far ahead" would probably be a fair criticism of my thinking process when it comes to forming an NBA team that can contend for a championship. Personally, I like to judge every player on whether or not they have a role on a championship team and whether or not that role works well the rest of the players we would or could have.

However, I imagine your criticism was more in relation to how the league will be shaped years from now. The criticism is well-founded, for sure; I think my perspective on the next few years is based on the assumption that the Warriors and Cavaliers* have several more years of dominance ahead, and the CBA does not change that. I could absolutely be wrong about this, I just don't know if putting our chips on the table right now when the idea of being a top team with this lineup is not guaranteed- the question "Would we really be THAT good?" is an important question to ask.

I'm with bwgood-- I don't think this vaults us into contention. I don't even think it vaults us into the conversation. Making this move leads us at least one relatively big move away (finding the right SF (it's not PJ) and reestablishing our bench) that would be even more difficult under the new CBA. This move essentially leads us to two very awkward windows:

1) When Booker and Chirss are too young
and
2) When Tyson is too old and Bledsoe's injuries have caught up to him.

I don't think either of those windows correlate with a championship window.

I think that the CBA is going to reward teams that draft extremely well, just like it has for every CBA. The only way, in my opinion, you are going to be separating from the rest of the pack of the NBA, is if our culture is so well put together that we are able to gather a strong core and convince them to take slight pay cuts to play with each other (a la the Spurs or the Heat). The new CBA will not hurt teams that build like the Spurs have, and this is not the Spurs move.

*btw, the Cavs example in your post seems out of place to me, as that team already had one of the greatest players of all time AND a solid #2. We have neither of those things as of now.

Perhaps using the word "vaults" is also getting too far ahead. I think we'll be competitive but I don't think contending right away is likely because of what we give up. But if you think getting Cousins and being contenders on day 1 is the plan then your expectations will never be met. But if you think getting Cousins and still having Bledsoe and Booker around are the foundations to build a contender then I think you will start to see what I see. There's no reason why we can't have Cousins and continue to draft well, no matter where we land in the draft.

[BobbieL]

I somewhat amazed that about 40% of you would trade Bender, Warren, Len and the two #1s for Cousins.

Chriss and Bender - they are both similar, really only need one and I agree, keep Chriss

Sorry to single you out BobbieL, but your observation strikes me so wrong and may be shared by others given these poll numbers.

Chriss and Bender are wildly dissimilar to me. Chriss barely knows how to play basketball at this point. He's laced with athletic ability, and hopefully as the years go by he'll get the game. He could possibly become a star in 5 years or just flat out disappear. He was a good pick at #8. I'm pleased with what I've seen, but in my book he's more hope than promise.

Bender will be a solid contributing NBA player for the next 10 or 15 years. He's already a pretty solid defender, has displayed an understanding for NBA offense play schemes, and has a nice shot. He could become a Nowitzki-esk star on offense with better D, but even if that stardom doesn't happen his "floor" is very high...he is a solid top 6 roster piece worse case. If Bender had stayed overseas another year, he'd be the prize every tank team was aiming for in this upcoming draft...and the Suns already have him. Yeah!

Its fine to single me out and in fact, you are right about what Bender has to offer in terms of being a basketball player. Chriss has some big time BOOM potential - but he also could just, flat line and not improve. Where as Bender, he has skills - you are right

So, you are correct - I am keeping Bender

I do wonder if Chriss would intrigue Sacramento them since he is from there and does scream "potential>"

I am not giving up though: Len, Warren, Chriiss, the current pick and the Miami pick. That's way too much

[Mulhollanddrive]

Salary cap is no problem if our owners are willing to pay.

We can create room for 2 star players (Cousins and another) and then Bird Rights extend any current player, we'd then have our Big 4 all aged 20-27, good for a run as long as the Nash era, benches are easy to build GSW / Cleveland / Spurs / Clippers all do it on salary scraps.

[jcsunsfan]

So McD said today "Yes we talked to Sacramento about Cousins. But we have talked to every team about every star player."


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[lilfishi22]

So McD said today "Yes we talked to Sacramento about Cousins. But we have talked to every team about every star player."


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Powerful McD doing his due diligence

[Damkac]

Didn't Cousins just said he loves Sacramento a while ago? And don't Kings have a new arena to fill up with people? And don't new rules makes it much easier for teams to keep their stars? If they didn't traded him all those years when he was rumored to be moved then why would they trade him now?

[Qwigglez]

Hey guys, I took a screen shot of the poll so I could make a new one.

Majority chose Boogie isn't worth such a huge haul.

[Qwigglez]

New poll is up. Not sure if the Kings would do it but made it based on the similarities the Wolves trading Kevin Love for the No 1 pick (Wiggins), Thad Young, and Anthony Bennett (who was utter trash his rookie year, 4points, 35 FG%).

[Frank Lee]

Ugh, you guys and your polls.

I don't care who is dealt, but acquiring Cousins is a fast tract to relevency and erases all the past handjobbing moves McD has made. The big picture end result doesn't matter if it puts the Suns in the playoffs for the next 2-3 yrs+. You have to get there to win anything. (It's amazing how many of you have just given the title to GState for the 'Curry duration' )

As far as DMC guaranteeing to re- sign here or even to come here, it all hinges upon the promise Sarver and McD make to him to keep Bled AND obtain Wall

That, IMO, is the long term plan concerning Cousins, for both Boogie and the Front Office.

I don't know how any of you could honestly say a team comprised of Bled, Book, Boogie and most certainly later, Wall, would not get your interest as well as compete at a much higher level immediately. The draft and develope plan is a two in the bush pathway. We are years away from anything more than a .500 ball club.

Even money, if DMC is traded, it will be here. It's manadatory for McD's blueprint/rebuild philosophy to acquire that one big star.

[Mulhollanddrive]

When Superstars leave they rarely get fair value, as teams only let them go under duress.

Love was going to leave in a year similar to Garnett, but with the new CBA Cousins will make $210m to stick around.

[nashrambler13]

Perhaps using the word "vaults" is also getting too far ahead. I think we'll be competitive but I don't think contending right away is likely because of what we give up. But if you think getting Cousins and being contenders on day 1 is the plan then your expectations will never be met. But if you think getting Cousins and still having Bledsoe and Booker around are the foundations to build a contender then I think you will start to see what I see. There's no reason why we can't have Cousins and continue to draft well, no matter where we land in the draft.

I see what you're saying. It's not an opinion I hold with incredible certainty, I just think that leaves the margin for error incredibly thin or almost non-existent. The foundation is there, I am just not sure it gives us any flexibility to acquire the players we need.

To be honest, I'm about 55% in the "Don't Trade for Boogie" camp and 45% in the "Whatever, Let's Go For It" camp- I do see the merits of both sides. I will not be wildly disappointed either way, I just slightly prefer staying the course.

Just please, McD, let these things happen soon, my mind is just so full of trade and draft ideas and fantasies. It's too much over here

[Mulhollanddrive]

It's like saying Fultz won't solve all our problems, so we should trade the pick.

We most likely need 2 more All-Stars to become contenders whichever method it is.

[jcsunsfan]

Let's just say you were going to build a team around Cousins, how would you do it?

You would need:
1. An active defensive, shot blocking, three point shooting f/c. Does not need to be a prolific scorer, just efficient.

[Mulhollanddrive]

I'd target Butler as the 2nd.

Bledsoe, Booker, Butler, Cousins, Chandler.

And build a bench for $20m like the contenders do.

[csuriano]

Let's just say you were going to build a team around Cousins, how would you do it?

You would need:
1. An active defensive, shot blocking, three point shooting f/c. Does not need to be a prolific scorer, just efficient.

Sounds like Bender to me.