Offseason Thread 6: The Not So Mexican Stand-off Continues

JTrain · Post #501 » by **JTrain** » Sat Sep 13, 2014 12:47 am

PHX Out: Bledsoe, Suns 2015 1st
PHX In: Millsap, Bucks 2015 2nd

ATL Out: Millsap, Teague, Bucks 2015 2nd
ATL In: Bledsoe, Evans

Utah Out: Evans
Utah In: Teague, Suns 2015 1st

:dontknow:

YouTube · Post #502 » by **Kerrsed** » Sat Sep 13, 2014 12:51 am

1UPZ wrote:McD has stated multiple times he is not going to compromise the long term Suns plan for a short playoff stint.

Whomever he has drafted... he has plans for.

He also said we would not be drafting 3 players in 2014 with our draft picks.

Nevermind, I guess he was right as we did end up with 4.

Post #503 » by **batsmasher** » Sat Sep 13, 2014 1:46 am

SunsFanSSOL wrote:Hate this move. We're sacrificing the playing time of 2 players who are actually part of our future (Warren and Goodwin) just to make Goran happy. Sad to see the Suns are still committed to gimmicks.

Who said we were sacrificing their playing time? If Zoran plays better than Archie and TJ, why doesn't he get their minutes? Players get BETTER when they have to fight for minutes.

Besides, when Goran left the Suns at age 25 NO-ONE thought he was part of the future. Zoki has plenty of growth still left in him.

SunsFanSSOL · Post #504 » by **SunsFanSSOL** » Sat Sep 13, 2014 2:21 am

batsmasher wrote:
SunsFanSSOL wrote:Hate this move. We're sacrificing the playing time of 2 players who are actually part of our future (Warren and Goodwin) just to make Goran happy. Sad to see the Suns are still committed to gimmicks.

Who said we were sacrificing their playing time? If Zoran plays better than Archie and TJ, why doesn't he get their minutes? Players get BETTER when they have to fight for minutes.

Besides, when Goran left the Suns at age 25 NO-ONE thought he was part of the future. Zoki has plenty of growth still left in him.

Zoran should play better than both of them, he has 4 years on Warren and 5 years on Archie, plus much more experience playing professionally, but I'm unconvinced that he will. He's mediocre player from the Euroleague who has had his chance at an NBA job multiple times but never obtained one until now. The Suns probably aren't going to be anything more than a 9th or 10th seed this season, so why delay the development of our 2 most promising prospects?

I'm going to guess that he wasn't signed for his skill (or lack thereof), he was signed because of the fear the Suns have of losing BOTH Bledsoe and Dragic next off-season. Signing Zoran gives us some leverage in Dragic's negotiations next off-season.

Post #505 » by **batsmasher** » Sat Sep 13, 2014 2:43 am

SunsFanSSOL wrote:I'm going to guess that he wasn't signed for his skill (or lack thereof), he was signed because of the fear the Suns have of losing BOTH Bledsoe and Dragic next off-season. Signing Zoran gives us some leverage in Dragic's negotiations next off-season.

Zoran gives the Suns no leverage. If Gogi wants to get paid, he'll leave either way. Besides it hasn't even been a week since Gogi said he wants to re-sign with the Suns this coming summer.

JTrain · Post #506 » by **JTrain** » Sat Sep 13, 2014 2:52 am

I'm not real big on this seemingly prevailing attitude that once you hit 27 or 28 you are basically one step away from pasture. Look at the NBA champions of the past 20 years. They were dominated by players in their late 20s and early 30s.

Just looking at the past 10 championship teams' top three players (by WS/48, min. 1000 MP):

- 16 out of the 30 players were at least 30 years old
- The average age was 29.6
- 3 out of the 30 players were 25 years old or younger

Post #507 » by **bwgood77** » Sat Sep 13, 2014 2:56 am

G Dragic will re-sign here, Bledsoe will take an offer. Who really cares that much about playing time for Archie and Zoran? These guys need to develop. They are not ready to contribute in real competitive NBA games with established guys. Goodwin is still younger than most rookies will be this year.

I'm more worried about playing time for Green. We have 96 minutes for the two guard spots. Assuming we keep Bledsoe, which I think we will, him and Dragic take up at least 60, and Thomas probably takes at least 20. That leaves 16 for Green, which seems way too little. So count out Goodwin and Zoran.

More than likely if Bledsoe is still around, Green plays some at the 3. I imagine if it plays out this way, Warren will get squeezed on minutes unless he really brings it. I'm not sure he is ready to get real nba minutes yet anyway, but I think he could contribute. I think he is MUCH more ready to play in a competitive NBA game than Goodwin at this point.

letsgosuns · Post #508 » by **letsgosuns** » Sat Sep 13, 2014 3:15 am

I am not that excited about possibly signing Goran Dragic's brother. I am also not excited about the thought of giving Goran Dragic a max contract next offseason like some people have suggested. I am also definitely not that excited about Isaiah Thomas like I know a lot of fans are. He had really good stats on a bad team. I was recently watching some Eric Bledsoe highlights to get a fresh viewpoint of what he did. There were plenty of highlights of him absolutely destroying Isaiah Thomas, which makes me even less excited about losing Bledsoe and having Thomas.

If the Suns do in fact sign Zoran Dragic and Bledsoe accepts the qualifying offer, that gives them G. Dragic, Bledsoe, Thomas, Ennis, Jackson, Green, Goodwin, and Z. Dragic. Eight guards for only two guard positions. Complete overkill. They also own the rights to another shooting guard in Bogdan Bogdanovic. Meanwhile they are incredibly thin in the frontcourt with no true reliable scoring big man. Markieff is the closest thing to a reliable scoring big they have right now and I think he is best served off the bench.

I certainly hope the Suns do not plan on throwing out small lineups like they have for the past nearly 50 years. It will never win a title. Ever. You play small ball in the NBA and you lose. This organization has proved that for basically half a century. When will they learn. What the hell are they doing signing so many guards?

JTrain · Post #509 » by **JTrain** » Sat Sep 13, 2014 3:32 am

letsgosuns wrote:If the Suns do in fact sign Zoran Dragic and Bledsoe accepts the qualifying offer, that gives them G. Dragic, Bledsoe, Thomas, Ennis, Jackson, Green, Goodwin, and Z. Dragic. Eight guards for only two guard positions. Complete overkill.

Ennis won't be on active roster. Green can play a lot of SF. Zoran also plays forward (I'm told) and will be a practice guy/cheap 15th man. Goodwin still has to learn to shoot the ball and needs at least two more seasons of coaching to be formidable. Honestly don't know who Jackson is :-o

.

Not disagreeing that we need a good post scorer, but I don't think there is a realistic one available right now.

JTrain · Post #510 » by **JTrain** » Sat Sep 13, 2014 3:36 am

OK, just figured out Jackson. I've been a little more football focused lately.

SunsFanSSOL · Post #511 » by **SunsFanSSOL** » Sat Sep 13, 2014 3:43 am

batsmasher wrote:
SunsFanSSOL wrote:I'm going to guess that he wasn't signed for his skill (or lack thereof), he was signed because of the fear the Suns have of losing BOTH Bledsoe and Dragic next off-season. Signing Zoran gives us some leverage in Dragic's negotiations next off-season.

Zoran gives the Suns no leverage. If Gogi wants to get paid, he'll leave either way. Besides it hasn't even been a week since Gogi said he wants to re-sign with the Suns this coming summer.

Goran will absolutely stay if we sign Zoran. He's contributed his own money to help pay for a buy out for his Euro contract. I guarantee you the Suns will not be the highest offer he will receive, but he will sign it anyway.

jredsaz · Post #512 » by **jredsaz** » Sat Sep 13, 2014 4:32 am

If the Suns sign Zoran does it realistically open up the possibility of adding Green or Goodwin in a Bledsoe deal?

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JTrain · Post #513 » by **JTrain** » Sat Sep 13, 2014 5:13 am

BurningHeart · Post #514 » by **BurningHeart** » Sat Sep 13, 2014 5:39 am

jredsaz wrote:If the Suns sign Zoran does it realistically open up the possibility of adding Green or Goodwin in a Bledsoe deal?

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Yes. Moreso Green than Goodwin though, I'd figure.

jredsaz · Post #515 » by **jredsaz** » Sat Sep 13, 2014 5:54 am

BurningHeart wrote:
jredsaz wrote:If the Suns sign Zoran does it realistically open up the possibility of adding Green or Goodwin in a Bledsoe deal?

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Yes. Moreso Green than Goodwin though, I'd figure.

From what I understand Goodwin has marginal value at best on the trade market.

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Post #516 » by **TASTIC** » Sat Sep 13, 2014 6:37 am

Green clearly has more value than Archie right now, he's expiring and coming off his best season and he's cheap.

He also showed he's matured and became a team guy which is massive.

The only reason I'd want Zoran is to keep Goran happy and hope he takes a discount - which is clearly what McD is doing, same with other teams pursuing Z.

If they do get him then yeah, I'd look at moving Green out East for picks - 76ers have a lot of picks and space, but they don't give a crap about winning either.

RunDogGun · Post #517 » by **RunDogGun** » Sat Sep 13, 2014 7:52 am

TASTIC wrote:Green clearly has more value than Archie right now, he's expiring and coming off his best season and he's cheap.

He also showed he's matured and became a team guy which is massive.

The only reason I'd want Zoran is to keep Goran happy and hope he takes a discount - which is clearly what McD is doing, same with other teams pursuing Z.

If they do get him then yeah, I'd look at moving Green out East for picks - 76ers have a lot of picks and space, but they don't give a crap about winning either.

I wouldn't say that Philly doesn't give a crap about winning. I would rather say that don't really care if they lose, which seems to fit every interview I've read from them. In the end though, it will kill ticket sales and merch sales. My brother in law is a Sixers fan, and lives fairly close, and the fans are getting pretty mad about trading away decent players.

I don't think Green is enough of an expiring for them to give up picks.

asudevil · Post #518 » by **asudevil** » Sat Sep 13, 2014 7:54 am

Scutt wrote:
asudevil wrote:
And of course the suns are concerned about making the playoffs, but they have done nothing to indicate that they would sacrifice developing their youth to get there. Sure they signed Thomas, but that's about it. He's an insurance policy for Bledsoe (which appears to have been a great "just in case" signing). IF the suns were truly all or nothing to the playoffs, then they would have maxed out Bledsoe the first day of FA.

McD is in it for the longhaul. We are among the youngest teams in the west, just waiting for the powerhouses to age and drop off.

I disagree, I think signing a half broke Leandro Barbosa last season showed just that. Had the Suns not been so concerned with being an 8th seed, those minutes could have gone to Goodwin, who played well when given the minutes.

you just changed your argument. you said "the suns ARE more concerned about making the playoffs", meaning that this upcoming season that is their biggest concern. so i argued that they have done nothing this offseason to show me that they would sacrifice youth development for a playoff run. Your most recent example with Barbosa brings into play last seasons push that the suns were right in the middle of.

had you said "the suns WERE more conerned about making the playoffs" then i would whole heartedly agree. They hindered on the floor development of Archie/Len in order to make a push. I dont blame them either. These past few seasons have seen a huge droppoff in fan interest, and we as fans needed something to get excited about. And we are once again truly excited about this team.

i, in all honesty, do not have high expectations of this upcoming season. I think what we'll see is a lot of floor time for our young guys. And expecting the playoffs from this team (especially if Bledsoe is gone) will be a stretch. Just look at our core. 8 of our core are 25 or younger and barely any have a lick of playoff experience. And of the guys over 25, there are only 2 that i a.) expect to be on the roster after this coming season and b.) will actually make a real impact, and those two are Plumlee and Dragic.

asudevil · Post #519 » by **asudevil** » Sat Sep 13, 2014 7:57 am

BurningHeart wrote:
jredsaz wrote:If the Suns sign Zoran does it realistically open up the possibility of adding Green or Goodwin in a Bledsoe deal?

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Yes. Moreso Green than Goodwin though, I'd figure.

Agreed. Archie has a ton of promise, BUT almost every team in the league passed up on him last season. Right now he's a 50/50 player. He could be a star in 3 years or out of the league, and based on that his value is neutral right now. We'd probably want too much back if we included him in a trade, and another team wouldnt really include much more to get him in one.

ImNotMcDiSwear · Post #520 » by **ImNotMcDiSwear** » Sat Sep 13, 2014 8:29 am

TASTIC wrote:Green clearly has more value than Archie right now, he's expiring and coming off his best season and he's cheap.

He also showed he's matured and became a team guy which is massive.

The only reason I'd want Zoran is to keep Goran happy and hope he takes a discount - which is clearly what McD is doing, same with other teams pursuing Z.

If they do get him then yeah, I'd look at moving Green out East for picks - 76ers have a lot of picks and space, but they don't give a crap about winning either.

I think it'd be hard to trade a guy like Gerald on a 1-year contract for a draft pick. Draft picks are simply too valuable because of the terms of rookie contracts. But we really seem to have stockpiled some talent. We could stand to liquidate some of it.