WeekapaugGroove wrote:I'll wait to see how it all plays out but it bob won't invest in his team then why would I invest my time and money in them either.
It is interesting that there seems to be a shift in some of this boards stance on early rookie extensions. I've long been in the get them done and don't mess with RFA but when Booker was up I feel that opinion was split. I just feel like it's not worth damaging the relationship.
I don't think the Booker one was split. My reasoning was that if he wanted to compete that we had the cap space to sign another player or two because his cap hold was low...if he waited.
This is different in the sense we are over the cap and they have big olds, particularly Ayton. We are going to be in the tax next year so waiting to sign doesn't make sense.
And my reasoning is guys want to get that bag as soon as they can and feelings get hurt when they don't. We're seeing play out in real time right now. I've always understood the reasoning behind waiting (especially if you will have space) but there's a non logical side of this that has to be accounted for.
My overall angst is really the big picture of we as suns fans have waited 10 **** years to get good again and if Sarver burns it down then why the hell would I ever do that again.
Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming Wow! What a Ride!-H.S.T.
bwgood77 wrote: If the Ayton deal hasn't gotten done and he only will accept a max, at this point I don't really expect it getting done.
They better get the Bridges one done though.
While locking up Paul was important, for our long term sustainable success, these are very important.
The only reason these will get done is if the players capitulate and just decide that they'd rather secure the money and get it behind them.
Part of me sees them both doing so..but a bigger part of me sees Ayton looking at those other guys in his class and not giving him.
As for Bridges, if they are not at least offering /$90, but preferably at least would go up to 4/$100, then that's ridiculous. I can understand them standing firm at $100, though when push came to shove I'd go to 5/$110.
If they do that, and sign Mikal over the #1 overall pick....then just trade Ayton now for KAT. He'll be 1000% gone the first chance he gets. That's an massive slap to the face by $arver (who is a cheap scumbag so that wouldn't surprise me). Might as well get ahead of the trouble it's gonna cause in the locker room. KAT is Book's buddy, so at least we know that that'll keep him happy and not demanding a trade (yet).
$arver sucks and posters here need to stop defending his thinking.
Towns could want that if they end up trading Russell for Simmons which has been talked about, but doesn't seem like enough if they won't take Brogdon, LeVert and a pick (they should).
I think if Ayton steps up even more, which I expect, he will get a max offer next offseason and take it and be happy..he seems like a happy no grudge guy. That may be what they are telling him, which, you can say isn't bad reasoning.
Bridges deserves one now. His value will only go up, especially if he starts creating his own shot more. Most teams already seem to think Ayton deserves a max, so the value won't go up.
If given the chance to play with CP3 and Booker in Phoenix for a shot a ring as opposed to watching Dlo and A1 take turns jacking up shots in cold ass Minnesota every night.....KAT is coming here. Every. Single. Time.
That's not the question.
It's why are we forced to make that trade when our notoriously cheap owner refuses to pay Ayton...you know the #1 overall pick.
A few people here wanted Luka. I wasn't one of them and the FO thought so too which, obviously was a mistake. A mistake that would insanely compounded by not resigning Ayton-especially now that he's proven his worth. He might ever pass Luka but he can still be the 2nd best guy-in what looks to be a fantastic draft class.
alamin330 wrote:Who is better than Ayton that would be attainable at the same rookie scale max deal at his position, and who plays better in the playoffs and was 2 wins away from a championship because of how amazing he played in the postseason, and who wants to play in Phoenix? If Ayton is the best (which I believe he is) then he’s a Max player. It’s not that complicated. Smh
On the other hand I might want to give Bridges a decent contract but not max. Buddy don’t even got handles. Once he gets handles though it’s a wrap. He has paul George potential. So he’s a tougher decision in my opinion
I'm more worried about Bridges than DA. His situation reminds me more of the Joe Johnson issue. He asks for a reasonable number, we say 'play the year and earn it'. He then outplays that deal and then we have to pay more.
It's very frustrating because this team has 3 studs in Book, Bridges, and DA. These guys together, over the next 5-8 years, could legit win a title (or more). DA and Bridges aren't close to their prime yet either.
This is another reason I really wish we finished off Milwaukee. Then it's not as pressing. I wouldn't even care. At least it would make sense why Sarver is doing this. "You fans got your ring and will buy tickets for the next few years no matter what". Sarver running this team is so terrifying.
King4Day wrote:I'm more worried about Bridges than DA. His situation reminds me more of the Joe Johnson issue. He asks for a reasonable number, we say 'play the year and earn it'. He then outplays that deal and then we have to pay more.
It's very frustrating because this team has 3 studs in Book, Bridges, and DA. These guys together, over the next 5-8 years, could legit win a title (or more). DA and Bridges aren't close to their prime yet either.
This is another reason I really wish we finished off Milwaukee. Then it's not as pressing. I wouldn't even care. At least it would make sense why Sarver is doing this. "You fans got your ring and will buy tickets for the next few years no matter what". Sarver running this team is so terrifying.
I've maintained for the entire time that our cheap ass owner won't be forking over for both of them. Ppl here keep telling me that Sarver has learned his lesson and he's changed. Leopards don't change their spots. 1 of Mikal and DA won't be a Sun this time next yr.
He's trading 1 of our young core for cheapness and giving the other (grudgingly) a contract. Just a matter of who gets what.
WeekapaugGroove wrote:I'll wait to see how it all plays out but it bob won't invest in his team then why would I invest my time and money in them either.
It is interesting that there seems to be a shift in some of this boards stance on early rookie extensions. I've long been in the get them done and don't mess with RFA but when Booker was up I feel that opinion was split. I just feel like it's not worth damaging the relationship.
I don't think the Booker one was split. My reasoning was that if he wanted to compete that we had the cap space to sign another player or two because his cap hold was low...if he waited.
This is different in the sense we are over the cap and they have big olds, particularly Ayton. We are going to be in the tax next year so waiting to sign doesn't make sense.
And my reasoning is guys want to get that bag as soon as they can and feelings get hurt when they don't. We're seeing play out in real time right now. I've always understood the reasoning behind waiting (especially if you will have space) but there's a non logical side of this that has to be accounted for.
My overall angst is really the big picture of we as suns fans have waited 10 **** years to get good again and if Sarver burns it down then why the hell would I ever do that again.
I agree. I would give it to him. BUT, I think Ayton is a guy that can get more consistent and improve and it could work to motivation. I think he has the personal motivation regardless, and MANY, I would say most, thought he was definitely not worth the max prior to the playoffs.
I think ultimately, if he gets the max, even next offseason, he is the type of guy that wouldn't hold a grudge. Honestly I don't think Bridges would either if he waited (though I think he will improve too...other than his efficiency might be tough to maintain from 3 and rim but also overall if he creates his own shot)..but Bridges is more likely to increase value making it dumb to wait...assuming Ayton eventually gets the max.
King4Day wrote:I'm more worried about Bridges than DA. His situation reminds me more of the Joe Johnson issue. He asks for a reasonable number, we say 'play the year and earn it'. He then outplays that deal and then we have to pay more.
It's very frustrating because this team has 3 studs in Book, Bridges, and DA. These guys together, over the next 5-8 years, could legit win a title (or more). DA and Bridges aren't close to their prime yet either.
This is another reason I really wish we finished off Milwaukee. Then it's not as pressing. I wouldn't even care. At least it would make sense why Sarver is doing this. "You fans got your ring and will buy tickets for the next few years no matter what". Sarver running this team is so terrifying.
I've maintained for the entire time that our cheap ass owner won't be forking over for both of them. Ppl here keep telling me that Sarver has learned his lesson and he's changed. Leopards don't change their spots. 1 of Mikal and DA won't be a Sun this time next yr.
He's trading 1 of our young core for cheapness and giving the other (grudgingly) a contract. Just a matter of who gets what.
Yes, you have repeated this a lot that they will trade Bridges for a rookie or draft pick. I'll still be surprised if that happens.
King4Day wrote:I'm more worried about Bridges than DA. His situation reminds me more of the Joe Johnson issue. He asks for a reasonable number, we say 'play the year and earn it'. He then outplays that deal and then we have to pay more.
It's very frustrating because this team has 3 studs in Book, Bridges, and DA. These guys together, over the next 5-8 years, could legit win a title (or more). DA and Bridges aren't close to their prime yet either.
This is another reason I really wish we finished off Milwaukee. Then it's not as pressing. I wouldn't even care. At least it would make sense why Sarver is doing this. "You fans got your ring and will buy tickets for the next few years no matter what". Sarver running this team is so terrifying.
I've maintained for the entire time that our cheap ass owner won't be forking over for both of them. Ppl here keep telling me that Sarver has learned his lesson and he's changed. Leopards don't change their spots. 1 of Mikal and DA won't be a Sun this time next yr.
He's trading 1 of our young core for cheapness and giving the other (grudgingly) a contract. Just a matter of who gets what.
Yes, you have repeated this a lot that they will trade Bridges for a rookie or draft pick. I'll still be surprised if that happens.
I said lotto pick. Top 5-8 most like. There's a difference. Sarver may be a cheap, arrogant **** but he has good basketball people around who won't let him do something that reckless.
If I had to guess they ship him off to some Detroit or some other perennial loser (ironically which is what we were till we drafted DA and Mikal which allowed us to get CP3 ).
That crappy team signs Mikal to a max deal and we select some dude who may or may not be good. I'd guess in this scenario we also resign Cam so he takes Mikal's spot at the 3.
The Bright Side (@BrightSideSun) Tweeted: Bridges improvements are already showing in pre-season. Will they carry over into the regular season? We will be watching...
Three pre-season games deep, Bridges is already showing a readiness to handle the ball more. Last year, he reached limits in what he could do with the ball. With belief from teammates and coaches and a work ethic that transitions to the court, all the hype is real.
It is nothing too drastic, but the way Bridges has been handling the ball this pre-season, he isn’t second guessing himself.
This all goes back to a poll from last year on who was the most valuable young player on the Suns ... Bridges or Ayton. It was fairly close in the vote. Still, that is the question to be answered this season. Bridges could be Kwahi. Ayton could be Robinson. Both could be worthy of the max. I don't have a problem maxing both. I don't have a problem with them going into RFA next year either. Just so much hand wringing going on by the fans. Again the Suns hold the cards because both players are RFAs next summer.
bigfoot wrote:This all goes back to a poll from last year on who was the most valuable young player on the Suns ... Bridges or Ayton. It was fairly close in the vote. Still, that is the question to be answered this season. Bridges could be Kwahi. Ayton could be Robinson. Both could be worthy of the max. I don't have a problem maxing both. I don't have a problem with them going into RFA next year either. Just so much hand wringing going on by the fans. Again the Suns hold the cards because both players are RFAs next summer.
Bridges is a little old to make a huge leap which is what he would have to do to be close the kwahi I like bridges but on a team where hevis the 3rd or 4th option and he is older than Book, he is fairly close to what he will be, he doesn't have a high ceiling like say Book or Ayton, his floor also isn't as low as aytons but still lower than Books
bigfoot wrote:This all goes back to a poll from last year on who was the most valuable young player on the Suns ... Bridges or Ayton. It was fairly close in the vote. Still, that is the question to be answered this season. Bridges could be Kwahi. Ayton could be Robinson. Both could be worthy of the max. I don't have a problem maxing both. I don't have a problem with them going into RFA next year either. Just so much hand wringing going on by the fans. Again the Suns hold the cards because both players are RFAs next summer.
Ayton was huge in the playoffs and way more important than Bridges.
bigfoot wrote:This all goes back to a poll from last year on who was the most valuable young player on the Suns ... Bridges or Ayton. It was fairly close in the vote. Still, that is the question to be answered this season. Bridges could be Kwahi. Ayton could be Robinson. Both could be worthy of the max. I don't have a problem maxing both. I don't have a problem with them going into RFA next year either. Just so much hand wringing going on by the fans. Again the Suns hold the cards because both players are RFAs next summer.
Have u taken a look at the current version of that poll? "Slight" "tiny" edge to Ayton......
Ghost of Kleine wrote:Duane Rankin (@DuaneRankin) Tweeted: Deandre Ayton addresses contract talks, saying he's "disappointed" a deal hasn't gotten done and he wants to be respected like his peers as ESPN reported last week contract talks were stalled over getting rookie max extension. #Suns https://t.co/XVtj06fojN
Look at his body language in that video. You can tell he's pissed.....and he should be. If we don't sign him and he balls out he's taking the QO. My guess at least.
You've really been on point with this for awhile man. I'm obviously in full agreement with you over the genuine legitimacy of these concerns too. I see the reality in these situations being that Saver is a blatant egoist! He relishes the control ( or leverage as he calls it). He believes he's the smartest person in the room, regardless of past outcomes of his poor business decisions indicating otherwise. Ayton ( and maybe even Bridges too)! Will likely leave out of contempt for being undervalued and feeling disrespected in comparison to their peers that have been prioritized and paid for their contributions to their teams. With Ayton and Bridges realizing they've been more integral in their teams success and in helping them reach the finals.
I could easily see Ayton just take the qualifying offer and leave for another team out of contempt unnecessarily fostered by this stupid decision on Sarvers' part. His mentality is still as it was when he told Amare that they have guys that could replace him tommorow, AND also when he told raja bell that he could pay him But won't because he doesn't have to! Saver utilizes his power and authority in these dealings like a child drunk on power feeding his self inflated ego without recourse.
Obviously it's just really not all that complicated to understand the necessity and prudence of getting these deals done, As to not create possible dissension in the locker room, create mistrust between key core players and your front office, and most importantly, not send out the message to every potential player/ free agent that the ownership is stingy, ignorant and won't at all value their players when it matters!
I mean what would be the motivation for any decent player/ free agent to consider coming here to play for us when they know that they won't get paid if they excel. Our only legitimate Avenue will soon be limited to fringe nba players, cast offs, potential busts and draft picks just trying to make the league if ghe suns don't correct this immediately! And even then, unecessary damage has been done to our reputation once again! The reality is that Sarver really only cares about control, his ego, and turning a profit for personal gain. He's completely disingenuous in what he claims to be invested in. And he'll always be a cheap, miserly manipulative egoistic.
I personally haven't looked into much of the draft as I felt relieved that we'd finally become a playoff contender. But nevertheless, With Saver, You can never truly be assured of his commitment/ investment to the team. Nor the credibility of what he says either. He's far too duplicitous in nature. And a pompous megalomaniac and egoist as well. I hope that he comes to his senses and secures both before the deadline. But wouldn't at all be surprised if he let's one or both walk (qualifying offer) due to his ego.
** IF that unfortunately does happen, I have recently researched our best viable and most comparable options for Aytons' replacement via the upcoming draft ( cost considerations included) for our owners interests:
The 6-foot-10, 238-pound 15-year-old posted 25.7 points and 22.8 rebounds per-40 minutes on 68 percent shooting from the field, helping Mali cruise to an 8-0 record and first-place finish that secured the emerging West African basketball powerhouse a spot at the FIBA Under-17 World Championship in 2018 in Argentina. He stands out first and foremost because of his height, massive frame, huge hands and 7-foot-5 wingspan that allows him to dominate the interior against other players his age, despite never having lifted weights seriously. He patterns his game after Shaquille O'Neal and it's easy to see why with his ability to move opponents around with brute force and his willingness to take (and dish out) contact inside the paint. Ballo is more than just a wrecking ball in the post, though, as he has exceptionally soft and reliable hands, allowing him to catch almost anything thrown his way and also emerge as a force on the backboards. In the 30 games in our database, Ballo has grabbed an outrageous 23.5 rebounds per-40 minutes, nearly 10 of which come on the offensive glass.
Highly mobile, coordinated and fluid, with good balance and a solid feel for the game, Ballo can pass the ball much more effectively than your typically raw 15-year-old. He sees both sides of the floor and showed a soft touch finishing off the glass or throwing in turnaround jumpers. His footwork and shooting mechanics are promising, a testament to the skill work on fundamentals that has been instilled in him over the past two years at CIBA, even if that hasn't quite translated to the free throw line yet, where he made just 52 percent of his attempts at the U16 African Championship. [youtube]https://youtu.be/8L_v-rc8Tg0[/youtube
Diop is an explosive 6-foot-11 big who possesses an excellent frame, the ability to quickly elevate from a stand-still and a quick second jump that allows him to be effective as a rim protector on defense, as a rebounder on both ends of the floor, and as a catch-and-finish scorer inside. While he still needs development as an interior self-creator in terms of creativity and ball security on posts-ups, Diop has shown flashes of touch through contact and at awkward angles, making difficult runners and layups out of spin moves, which are impressive for his size.
Maybe the most impressive part of his skill set are his flashes as a perimeter offensive player, where he has enough fluidity with the ball in his hands to drive to the rim using his size difference against smaller perimeter defenders. While turnovers are still an issue for him, he knows how to play. Diop can make passes out of the post, whether it is to shooters on the perimeter or to players on the move cutting to the basket.
Diop’s floor as a 6-foot-11 athletic rim-protector, rebounder and catch-and-finish scorer will allow him to be at least a really good player at the European level. If he can turn his flashes of fluidity and vision into consistent parts of his skill set, his ceiling is as high as any other big man on this list.
Dante is a 6’11 center who measured in at the 2019 Nike Hoop Summit at 249 lbs with a 7’5.5 wingspan and a 9’5 standing reach. To give an idea of just how elite Dante is in terms of measurements, Bol Bol measured in with two inches more in wingspan and standing reach at the NBA Draft Combine, weighing in at only 208 lbs. Strength and agility are both going to be areas of focus for Dante, but he should be physically ready to contribute in college.
It was only one month ago where Dante was a pivotal force for his EYBL team, MoKan Elite, after winning the 2019 Peach Jam. Among the EYBL leaders in rebounds and blocked shots throughout the season, Dante led the Peach Jam in rebounds per game, including a 22-point, 18-rebound performance in the 85-84 win over Team WhyNot in the Finals.
His EYBL season averages through 19 games were 15.8 points, 10.5 rebounds and 2.1 blocks on 72.2 percent shooting from the field and 60.5 percent from the free-throw line free throw percentage. In six games at the Peach Jam, Dante posted averages of 18.7 points, 13.8 rebounds and 1.5 blocks. He had stated during the Nike Hoop Summit that it was his ultimate goal to win the Peach Jam, and he put in the work to live up to his aspiration.
Dante may not be a stretch big just yet and relied a lot on opportunities close to the hoop. He still displayed solid touch, an ability to score without the ball and he seems to be catching up with the speed of the game. He showed an ability to be dangerous cutting to the hoop and in the pick-and-roll, which have become staples of modern big man offense.
Ghost of Kleine wrote:Duane Rankin (@DuaneRankin) Tweeted: Deandre Ayton addresses contract talks, saying he's "disappointed" a deal hasn't gotten done and he wants to be respected like his peers as ESPN reported last week contract talks were stalled over getting rookie max extension. #Suns https://t.co/XVtj06fojN
Look at his body language in that video. You can tell he's pissed.....and he should be. If we don't sign him and he balls out he's taking the QO. My guess at least.
You've really been on point with this for awhile man. I'm obviously in full agreement with you over the genuine legitimacy of these concerns too. I see the reality in these situations being that Saver is a blatant egoist! He relishes the control ( or leverage as he calls it). He believes he's the smartest person in the room, regardless of past outcomes of his poor business decisions indicating otherwise. Ayton ( and maybe even Bridges too)! Will likely leave out of contempt for being undervalued and feeling disrespected in comparison to their peers that have been prioritized and paid for their contributions to their teams. With Ayton and Bridges realizing they've been more integral in their teams success and in helping them reach the finals.
I could easily see Ayton just take the qualifying offer and leave for another team out of contempt unnecessarily fostered by this stupid decision on Sarvers' part. His mentality is still as it was when he told Amare that they have guys that could replace him tommorow, AND also when he told raja bell that he could pay him But won't because he doesn't have to! Saver utilizes his power and authority in these dealings like a child drunk on power feeding his self inflated ego without recourse.
Obviously it's just really not all that complicated to understand the necessity and prudence of getting these deals done, As to not create possible dissension in the locker room, create mistrust between key core players and your front office, and most importantly, not send out the message to every potential player/ free agent that the ownership is stingy, ignorant and won't at all value their players when it matters!
I mean what would be the motivation for any decent player/ free agent to consider coming here to play for us when they know that they won't get paid if they excel. Our only legitimate Avenue will soon be limited to fringe nba players, cast offs, potential busts and draft picks just trying to make the league if ghe suns don't correct this immediately! And even then, unecessary damage has been done to our reputation once again! The reality is that Sarver really only cares about control, his ego, and turning a profit for personal gain. He's completely disingenuous in what he claims to be invested in. And he'll always be a cheap, miserly manipulative egoistic.
I personally haven't looked into much of the draft as I felt relieved that we'd finally become a playoff contender. But nevertheless, With Saver, You can never truly be assured of his commitment/ investment to the team. Nor the credibility of what he says either. He's far too duplicitous in nature. And a pompous megalomaniac and egoist as well. I hope that he comes to his senses and secures both before the deadline. But wouldn't at all be surprised if he let's one or both walk (qualifying offer) due to his ego.
** IF that unfortunately does happen, I have recently researched our best viable and most comparable options for Aytons' replacement. Bridges I'll look more into later.
He won't let DA walk or trade him for picks. The city would flip and Booker/CP3 would demand out. We'd be national joke. Even his fan boys here in our forum couldn't defend him anymore. If this goes bad, I imagine KAT becomes a Sun, they make a final push with a big 3 of those guys while resigning Mikal.
I still have hope that we have a resigned DA this time next week.
Damn. TMZ already in the mix. This makes me feel better. Making national news.. No one is gonna side with Sarver....he's hated by all but a few people. Hopefully this forces him to act.
Damn. TMZ already in the mix. This makes me feel better. Making national news.. No one is gonna side with Sarver....he's hated by all but a few people. Hopefully this forces him to act.
TMZ is owned by FauxNews now so I dunno how to take this......
).
