dremill24 wrote:So disrespectful to offer him life changing money but a bit less than guys that are better than him at his job. The nerve...
Name some.
I'd love to hear guys that are available now or even next summer that are better and within the same age group.
Go ahead. I'll wait. TIA
Name some players that are better and get paid more? You really need help with that?
Dont even know what that 2nd sentence has to do with what I said.
Can also kick rocks with the condescension lol
My point. If you couldn't catch on to it is this:
-Ayton is on the team. -He wants to stay on the team. - You need to pay him what he wants to stay on the team. -If you don't pay him he leaves. -If he leaves you need to find a replacement that can do what he does. . . . . . -Please name any players that can do what he does and are available. -I ask you this since you apparently don't think he's worth the money.
I'd love to hear guys that are available now or even next summer that are better and within the same age group.
Go ahead. I'll wait. TIA
Name some players that are better and get paid more? You really need help with that?
Dont even know what that 2nd sentence has to do with what I said.
Can also kick rocks with the condescension lol
My point. If you couldn't catch on to it is this:
-Ayton is on the team. -He wants to stay on the team. - You need to pay him what he wants to stay on the team. -If you don't pay him he leaves. -If he leaves you need to find a replacement that can do what he does. . . . . . -Please name any players that can do what he does and are available. -I ask you this since you apparently don't think he's worth the money.
I don't know who he's thinking is available now or next summer. Gobert? But he makes a lot more money. He isn't in the same age group either but I guess his original statement was that he shouldn't make as much as the best centers in the league and isn't worth the max which is a fair opinion I guess but hard to find guys with his skillset at the top of all the various impact stats I mention at the age of 22 (23 going into this year)....we should know how hard it is to find them given we couldn't find a rookie to keep past his first contract for about a decade.
I'd love to hear guys that are available now or even next summer that are better and within the same age group.
Go ahead. I'll wait. TIA
Name some players that are better and get paid more? You really need help with that?
Dont even know what that 2nd sentence has to do with what I said.
Can also kick rocks with the condescension lol
My point. If you couldn't catch on to it is this:
-Ayton is on the team. -He wants to stay on the team. - You need to pay him what he wants to stay on the team. -If you don't pay him he leaves. -If he leaves you need to find a replacement that can do what he does. . . . . . -Please name any players that can do what he does and are available. -I ask you this since you apparently don't think he's worth the money.
Ayton is on the team Ayton wants to stay on the team You need to pay him eventually (just not right now) If you wait until next summer you can still offer him a 25%/30% max If he underperforms this year then let him go RFA if he does NOT accept your reasonable offer You can still match any RFA offer by a team He still has to play for the Suns
I'd love to hear guys that are available now or even next summer that are better and within the same age group.
Go ahead. I'll wait. TIA
Name some players that are better and get paid more? You really need help with that?
Dont even know what that 2nd sentence has to do with what I said.
Can also kick rocks with the condescension lol
My point. If you couldn't catch on to it is this:
-Ayton is on the team. -He wants to stay on the team. - You need to pay him what he wants to stay on the team. -If you don't pay him he leaves. -If he leaves you need to find a replacement that can do what he does. . . . . . -Please name any players that can do what he does and are available. -I ask you this since you apparently don't think he's worth the money.
Dude dont come at me like im the one with the comprehension issues when your response was the one that changed the topic away from my post. I never mentioned getting rid of him or having to find a replacement lol.
Im really only commenting on the narrative that not offering a max to Ayton is somehow "disrepectful." He and all the other players who play that card can **** right off. There are guys who get max contracts that are better than him, so how is it disrespectful? Is every player who isnt on a max disrespected? No...they understand that sometimes the guys who perform at a higher level than you get paid more than you, just like any job.
To the rest...I dont know where you think he's going. Him remaining with the team and getting a max contract do not have to be mutually exclusive. He's a restricted FA if he doesnt get an extension so the Suns can bring him back even if another team offers a better contract. Im not advocating getting rid of him, I've even said in this thread that I'd probably give him the max deal at the end of the day, I just think it will be a bad contract that limits future flexibility. But me saying hes not worth a max contract doesnt mean I want him gone, its not a binary situation, there are middle grounds. Chill out
bwgood77 wrote: They can. I have looked at Capela's and there are rebounding ones. And in TJ's there were 3 pt takes.
I agree about the free throws. Not so much about the ppg, because you don't want him thinking about personal #s when it comes to scoring. Rebounding is fine because it helps the team. You don't want him taking a bunch of shots if he is off or going to the rim if he is triple teamed if say, Booker is on fire...just so he can get 20.
It is obvious from this post that Ayton isn't a straight 25% max. As soon as folks start saying he needs monetary incentives to meet free throws or other stats it should be apparent. Hell, he could go from a 25% max to a 30% max by making all-NBA, DYOP, or MVP. So he's offered 20% of cap ($22.4M) and gets the extra 5% if he averages 5 free throw attempts per game??? Or 1% for FT attemps, 1% for rebound average above 12 per game, 1% for 2 blocks per game average, 1% for shooting better than .350 from 3, and 1% for playing more than 70 games??? Come on now. This just says Ayton lacks motivation which we all know he does at times.
I don't think he needs incentives though. That was just a response that IF I was to build in any incentives it might be stuff like that. He nearly leads the league in rebounding and offensive rebounding anyway, particularly for his age. I'm not worried about points. He's a guy the general NBA expert consensus analysts feel should get a max. Does he play as well as all rookie max players? No. Does he have enormous upside and show super skills in the playoffs where even CP3 said he was our most important player in the playoffs? Yes. Your most important player in the playoffs where you get to the finals still with a ton of upside at 22 years old isn't worth haggling over if most feel he's worth a max, particularly when a guy like Porter Jr gets one, a guy that has BARELY been healthy the last 4 years...only about half the time and can't play a lick of defense.
I know everyone is focused on offense, which I'm not terribly concerned about because I've seen it, he's extremely efficient, and has a nice short-midrange if he's going 1 on 1. Few Cs have his defensive versatility, even at his young age, and I don't know if any have his upside...his work ethic is also strong and he has a great attitude and is a great teammate.
If I was building contract incentives for Ayton and Bridges they would be simple.
20% of cap base contract ($22.4M per year) 21% making WCF ($23.5M per year) 23% making finals ($25.8M per year) 24% winning finals ($26.9M per year) 25% finals MVP ($28M per year)
dremill24 wrote: Name some players that are better and get paid more? You really need help with that?
Dont even know what that 2nd sentence has to do with what I said.
Can also kick rocks with the condescension lol
My point. If you couldn't catch on to it is this:
-Ayton is on the team. -He wants to stay on the team. - You need to pay him what he wants to stay on the team. -If you don't pay him he leaves. -If he leaves you need to find a replacement that can do what he does. . . . . . -Please name any players that can do what he does and are available. -I ask you this since you apparently don't think he's worth the money.
Ayton is on the team Ayton wants to stay on the team You need to pay him eventually (just not right now) If you wait until next summer you can still offer him a 25%/30% max If he underperforms this year then let him go RFA if he does NOT accept your reasonable offer You can still match any RFA offer by a team He still has to play for the Suns
Now you see how it works??
He doesn't HAVE to play for us. As has been mentioned already he can sign the QO.....and before you start in about he won't do that.
Eventually some player will do exactly that. You know what's gonna happen leading up to that inevitable day? Fans of said team are gonna say things like: "there's no way player X won't sign the deal later next summer. No other player has passed on that kinda $$$ before. Sure, he might be angry now about not getting a deal, but he'll get over it. He won't sign the QO"
That sound familiar to things that you've heard here? Or things you've said yourself?
It's gonna happen and if there's any owner who can piss off a star player into making a historic decision just to GTFO, it's Big Time Bobby $arver.
bigfoot wrote: It is obvious from this post that Ayton isn't a straight 25% max. As soon as folks start saying he needs monetary incentives to meet free throws or other stats it should be apparent. Hell, he could go from a 25% max to a 30% max by making all-NBA, DYOP, or MVP. So he's offered 20% of cap ($22.4M) and gets the extra 5% if he averages 5 free throw attempts per game??? Or 1% for FT attemps, 1% for rebound average above 12 per game, 1% for 2 blocks per game average, 1% for shooting better than .350 from 3, and 1% for playing more than 70 games??? Come on now. This just says Ayton lacks motivation which we all know he does at times.
I don't think he needs incentives though. That was just a response that IF I was to build in any incentives it might be stuff like that. He nearly leads the league in rebounding and offensive rebounding anyway, particularly for his age. I'm not worried about points. He's a guy the general NBA expert consensus analysts feel should get a max. Does he play as well as all rookie max players? No. Does he have enormous upside and show super skills in the playoffs where even CP3 said he was our most important player in the playoffs? Yes. Your most important player in the playoffs where you get to the finals still with a ton of upside at 22 years old isn't worth haggling over if most feel he's worth a max, particularly when a guy like Porter Jr gets one, a guy that has BARELY been healthy the last 4 years...only about half the time and can't play a lick of defense.
I know everyone is focused on offense, which I'm not terribly concerned about because I've seen it, he's extremely efficient, and has a nice short-midrange if he's going 1 on 1. Few Cs have his defensive versatility, even at his young age, and I don't know if any have his upside...his work ethic is also strong and he has a great attitude and is a great teammate.
If I was building contract incentives for Ayton and Bridges they would be simple.
20% of cap base contract ($22.4M per year) 21% making WCF ($23.5M per year) 23% making finals ($25.8M per year) 24% winning finals ($26.9M per year) 25% finals MVP ($28M per year)
All team-based incentives.
Yes, I've thought of team based incentives being the best, though you wouldn't be able to build %s into a contract like that, given they run 4-5 years and you can't really change incentives early, but bonuses for playoff games won or something would be good.
Honestly though I don't think these guys need incentives.
I don't think they really feel they need the extra money at all. I think it's purely a respect based thing. Wanting to get the respect their peers did. That's it.
I even said in a GB thread that I'd love it if all player contracts were private and unknown. Of course it would be nice if they didn't know each others but we knew what they were. But honestly I wonder how much Ayton would be happy with if he had zero idea what other guys got paid in the league. I bet he'd think $20 million a year was a ****. All the rookies probably would.
Slim Charless wrote: My point. If you couldn't catch on to it is this:
-Ayton is on the team. -He wants to stay on the team. - You need to pay him what he wants to stay on the team. -If you don't pay him he leaves. -If he leaves you need to find a replacement that can do what he does. . . . . . -Please name any players that can do what he does and are available. -I ask you this since you apparently don't think he's worth the money.
Ayton is on the team Ayton wants to stay on the team You need to pay him eventually (just not right now) If you wait until next summer you can still offer him a 25%/30% max If he underperforms this year then let him go RFA if he does NOT accept your reasonable offer You can still match any RFA offer by a team He still has to play for the Suns
Now you see how it works??
He doesn't HAVE to play for us. As has been mentioned already he can sign the QO.....and before you start in about he won't do that.
Eventually some player will do exactly that. You know what's gonna happen leading up to that inevitable day? Fans of said team are gonna say things like: "there's no way player X won't sign the deal later next summer. No other player has passed on that kinda $$$ before. Sure, he might be angry now about not getting a deal, but he'll get over it. He won't sign the QO"
That sound familiar to things that you've heard here? Or things you've said yourself?
It's gonna happen and if there's any owner who can piss off a star player into making a historic decision just to GTFO, it's Big Time Bobby $arver.
Ayton isn't dumb enough to take the QO. That's leaving $13M on table for one season and a substantial risk of an injury where he could lose significantly more. You can dream up the worst-case scenario of Ayton taking the qualifying offer because he's upset but somehow can't see the injury risk or the loss of $13M that would be hard for him to make up?
bigfoot wrote: Ayton is on the team Ayton wants to stay on the team You need to pay him eventually (just not right now) If you wait until next summer you can still offer him a 25%/30% max If he underperforms this year then let him go RFA if he does NOT accept your reasonable offer You can still match any RFA offer by a team He still has to play for the Suns
Now you see how it works??
He doesn't HAVE to play for us. As has been mentioned already he can sign the QO.....and before you start in about he won't do that.
Eventually some player will do exactly that. You know what's gonna happen leading up to that inevitable day? Fans of said team are gonna say things like: "there's no way player X won't sign the deal later next summer. No other player has passed on that kinda $$$ before. Sure, he might be angry now about not getting a deal, but he'll get over it. He won't sign the QO"
That sound familiar to things that you've heard here? Or things you've said yourself?
It's gonna happen and if there's any owner who can piss off a star player into making a historic decision just to GTFO, it's Big Time Bobby $arver.
Ayton isn't dumb enough to take the QO. That's leaving $13M on table for one season and a substantial risk of an injury where he could lose significantly more. You can dream up the worst-case scenario of Ayton taking the qualifying offer because he's upset but somehow can't see the injury risk or the loss of $13M that would be hard for him to make up?
Those words and others similar to them will be said when a player takes the QO. Which will happen at some point.
I think there is less then a 1% chance he takes the QO. I think we will give him the max or very close to it next summer because he'd rather sign with us than another team..and we will at a minimum match what they could offer. But no reason not to do it now if that's the case given we are operating over the cap anyway. No upside whatsoever unless he has a career ending injury.
That is one reason he may sign a lesser deal, is fear of a career ending or serious injury that would drastically impact his value and end up with a deal like Noel after turning down a pretty sizable deal.
I don't see why we haven't signed Bridges though. He is the prototypical player you want in today's NBA. Wings are at a premium and he is one of the best defensive and probably the most efficient offensive wings there is. As Marks pointed out, more points per game in history than a player with a 15 usage rate or lower.
Unless his agent has another team saying he will give him the max, some place he would want to go like Philly if they could create space in some sort of Simmons move..it seems like we'd really value a player like that with his character and work ethic. Couldn't ask for a better fit next to Booker. Easily worth $25 million a year if that's what it takes. If he wants more that seems excessive so curious where they are at.
dremill24 wrote:So disrespectful to offer him life changing money but a bit less than guys that are better than him at his job. The nerve...
Name some.
I'd love to hear guys that are available now or even next summer that are better and within the same age group.
Go ahead. I'll wait. TIA
I am not sure about centers at the age of 23 or less that are really even close all things considered. I mean a few make more but they are elite. Just because he's not as good as Embiid or Jokic doesn't mean he shouldn't get a rookie max.
I don't think he's as good as those guys but they are pretty historic in their talents..and Jokic wasn't nearly as good as he is now his 3rd year...he averaged like 18 and 10.7 his 3rd year..Ayton averaged 18 and 11.5 in his second. His points went down a bit this past year but that because his shots dropped by 50%..his points per shot went way up, so he was more efficient and effective on offense. Near the top in contesting 2s and 3s..the only guy in the NBA near the top in both. Screen assists. He does a lot for our offense and defense that don't show up in the box score.
Embiid in his 3rd year scored a bit more but had about the same points per shot...he went to the line 3.2x a game to Ayton's 2.5. Not nearly the rebounder in his 3rd year.
Plus those guys were the 1st option...which Ayton is most certainly not on this team. He's behind both Booker and CP3 in shots.
I'm wasn't attacking anyone though. I just want a few names of bigs who are better and available than Ayton.
dremill24 wrote:So disrespectful to offer him life changing money but a bit less than guys that are better than him at his job. The nerve...
Name some.
I'd love to hear guys that are available now or even next summer that are better and within the same age group.
Go ahead. I'll wait. TIA
I am not sure about centers at the age of 23 or less that are really even close all things considered. I mean a few make more but they are elite. Just because he's not as good as Embiid or Jokic doesn't mean he shouldn't get a rookie max.
I don't think he's as good as those guys but they are pretty historic in their talents..and Jokic wasn't nearly as good as he is now his 3rd year...he averaged like 18 and 10.7 his 3rd year..Ayton averaged 18 and 11.5 in his second. His points went down a bit this past year but that because his shots dropped by 50%..his points per shot went way up, so he was more efficient and effective on offense. Near the top in contesting 2s and 3s..the only guy in the NBA near the top in both. Screen assists. He does a lot for our offense and defense that don't show up in the box score.
Embiid in his 3rd year scored a bit more but had about the same points per shot...he went to the line 3.2x a game to Ayton's 2.5. Not nearly the rebounder in his 3rd year.
Embiid also shot like 15x more 3pt per game.
"Never argue with an idiot. You'll never convince the idiot that you're correct, and bystanders won't be able to tell who's who." - Mark Twain
Very clever! I actually thought about mentioning that to you honestly, Given your affinity for Ayayi. But then figured what's the point, As we already have Payne, Payton and Randle at the guard spot. I wouldn't mind him in place of Randle honestly though.
bwgood77 wrote: I don't see why we haven't signed Bridges though. He is the prototypical player you want in today's NBA. Wings are at a premium and he is one of the best defensive and probably the most efficient offensive wings there is. As Marks pointed out, more points per game in history than a player with a 15 usage rate or lower.
Unless his agent has another team saying he will give him the max, some place he would want to go like Philly if they could create space in some sort of Simmons move..it seems like we'd really value a player like that with his character and work ethic. Couldn't ask for a better fit next to Booker. Easily worth $25 million a year if that's what it takes. If he wants more that seems excessive so curious where they are at.
I think that’s the case with Bridges. I think people are getting in his ear about demanding the max and not taking anything less.
His agent is probably saying “Porter Jr was paid max on largely potential so why not Mikal?”.
I'd love to hear guys that are available now or even next summer that are better and within the same age group.
Go ahead. I'll wait. TIA
I am not sure about centers at the age of 23 or less that are really even close all things considered. I mean a few make more but they are elite. Just because he's not as good as Embiid or Jokic doesn't mean he shouldn't get a rookie max.
I don't think he's as good as those guys but they are pretty historic in their talents..and Jokic wasn't nearly as good as he is now his 3rd year...he averaged like 18 and 10.7 his 3rd year..Ayton averaged 18 and 11.5 in his second. His points went down a bit this past year but that because his shots dropped by 50%..his points per shot went way up, so he was more efficient and effective on offense. Near the top in contesting 2s and 3s..the only guy in the NBA near the top in both. Screen assists. He does a lot for our offense and defense that don't show up in the box score.
Embiid in his 3rd year scored a bit more but had about the same points per shot...he went to the line 3.2x a game to Ayton's 2.5. Not nearly the rebounder in his 3rd year.
Plus those guys were the 1st option...which Ayton is most certainly not on this team. He's behind both Booker and CP3 in shots.
I'm wasn't attacking anyone though. I just want a few names of bigs who are better and available than Ayton.
I just want a few names of bigs who are better and available than Ayton.
This is really just such a valid point though. I posted about what teams would give Ayton the max in the GB ( I think). But in some proposals, the best offers for a sign 'n' trade scenario ( if he chooses to leave) would be:
1- New York- that was willing to offer Mitchell Robinson/ Either Barrett or Toppin/ Quickly and two firsts. ( I chose the Charlotte 2022 First and the Dallas 2023 first personally).
2- Toronto offer- Siakim for Ayton/ filler. I told them that Siakim is already making max money, So at that point, We be just as well off giving Ayton the max. He's a better scorer and rebounder, etc. I then countered with Barnes/ Flynn/ 2 firsts. I suggest we could see about having a 3rd team take Siakim ( Sacramento)?
I suggested: Sacramento gets- Siakim/ Flynn ( Maybe Toronto 1st)??? Added upon reflection for the kings' 2022 first.
3- Memphis offer ( someone offered) Steven Adams/ Maybe Brandon Clarke/ and a first. I responded.......... I told him that to get the discussion started, It needs to either be an Ayton for Jaren Jackson + a filler or a first. OR ( without J Jackson) a package along the lines of: Clarke/ Bane/ Tillman and a first. The point is that IF we lose Ayton, it'll be nearly impossible to find comparable value/ production! Ayton is clearly better than any of Robinson/ Siakim/ Jackson in terms of current production, efficiency, upside!
IF I was trying to really get close to productional value offensively, I'd have to look at Chicago and Nikola Vucevic. If we had to trade him or lose him, I'd try to trade with Chicago:
Ayton ( Max) for Vucevic and Colby White? ( I'd try and flip White to Orlando for Bamba perhaps)? Or to Toronto for Boucher?
Or if we couldn't get Vucevic, Then I'd look to try and trade Ayton to Detroit for : Kelly Olynyk/*Isiah Stewart*/ first.
But again, There really are no legitimate equal value players that we could get IF we were to lose Ayton. Our best option would be to resign him at all costs ( reasonably of course).
Last and best trade option for maximum value return would be: Phoenix/ Toronto/ Chicago:
Toronto gets- Ayton/ White.
Chicago gets- Siakim/ Flynn.
Phoenix gets- Vucevic/ Boucher/ Chicago 2022 first.
dremill24 wrote: Name some players that are better and get paid more? You really need help with that?
Dont even know what that 2nd sentence has to do with what I said.
Can also kick rocks with the condescension lol
My point. If you couldn't catch on to it is this:
-Ayton is on the team. -He wants to stay on the team. - You need to pay him what he wants to stay on the team. -If you don't pay him he leaves. -If he leaves you need to find a replacement that can do what he does. . . . . . -Please name any players that can do what he does and are available. -I ask you this since you apparently don't think he's worth the money.
Dude dont come at me like im the one with the comprehension issues when your response was the one that changed the topic away from my post. I never mentioned getting rid of him or having to find a replacement lol.
Im really only commenting on the narrative that not offering a max to Ayton is somehow "disrepectful." He and all the other players who play that card can **** right off. There are guys who get max contracts that are better than him, so how is it disrespectful? Is every player who isnt on a max disrespected? No...they understand that sometimes the guys who perform at a higher level than you get paid more than you, just like any job.
To the rest...I dont know where you think he's going. Him remaining with the team and getting a max contract do not have to be mutually exclusive. He's a restricted FA if he doesnt get an extension so the Suns can bring him back even if another team offers a better contract. Im not advocating getting rid of him, I've even said in this thread that I'd probably give him the max deal at the end of the day, I just think it will be a bad contract that limits future flexibility. But me saying hes not worth a max contract doesnt mean I want him gone, its not a binary situation, there are middle grounds. Chill out
Well said…. Playing the ‘respect’ card is not a valid path to a pay day. It’s a road block for negotiation. Respect of my peers??? Come on. You get that on the court. If your peers respect you for how much you make, they really are respecting your choice of agents. Sure, market price comes into play, but in the end, deals are mutually exclusive. The hoohah surrounding this extension is totally agent driven and aided by the calculated release of inside info by the breaking(or making?) story glutton Woj.
Are the days gone when you hear a player say he just wants to play ball and all that contract stuff will get worked out? CamPayne says no.
Just play ball Ayton, you have plenty of time (a season) to validate your claims. If he gets butthurt with this delay, we’ll then, I’ll believe his draft day comment for what he is/was looking forward to in the NBA. This season is not the one for distracting drama. It’s on the line. Focus on that.
