Offseason Thread 6: The Not So Mexican Stand-off Continues

phrazbit · Post #521 » by **phrazbit** » Sat Sep 13, 2014 9:27 am

Despite his strong play last year I doubt Green has much value as a trade piece right now. He has pulled a Houdini act before, I doubt there is a lot of faith around basketball that he will duplicate his level of play from last season. If he does come out next year and is lighting it up again, then yeah, he will have value as a mid-season trade piece, but he has to prove it first.

Jdiddy701 · Post #522 » by **Jdiddy701** » Sat Sep 13, 2014 12:31 pm

You guys are crazy by sending Green out. Without Green, Suns are a bad team. Without Green and Bledsoe we are the worst team in the West. Did you guys not watch last season? Dragic and Markieff alone can not make this team go. Gerald Green should be in the Suns future plans. Pay the man.

Looking at Gerald's past is what everyone is doing. This guy was really good for us last year and should be extended. IMO, the way he played last season he should be our starting SG this season if Bledsoe is out and would do a hell of a job.

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drewsprocket · Post #523 » by **drewsprocket** » Sat Sep 13, 2014 2:24 pm

Green was a welcome surprise but he was not a difference maker. He scored a lot of points on a team without a lot of scorers and down it's #2 guy. We were not a playoff team so I'm not all hot and bothered by anyone's stats. Dragic was amazing as he carried the load for our offense and what Keef was able to do off the bench.

Suns Court 23 · Post #524 » by **Suns Court 23** » Sat Sep 13, 2014 4:33 pm

drewsprocket wrote:Green was a welcome surprise but he was not a difference maker. He scored a lot of points on a team without a lot of scorers and down it's #2 guy. We were not a playoff team so I'm not all hot and bothered by anyone's stats. Dragic was amazing as he carried the load for our offense and what Keef was able to do off the bench.

We would have never been in the playoff picture after Bledsoe went down if it weren't for Green stepping up and becoming the 2nd option of the offense. He was a HUGE difference maker and was the reason we had a chance at the playoffs anyway.

NapoleonII · Post #525 » by **NapoleonII** » Sat Sep 13, 2014 4:58 pm

If you're only looking at Green's box score, he doesn't seem essential or a piece to consider building on in the future. He made a lot of threes, which seem easily replaceable in this system.

But having watched quite a lot of games this year, I was most impressed with HOW Green scored. 3rd quarter back-breakers, screened 1 dribble step-backs, clutch 4th quarter comebacks. The dude has the offensive ability to be a closer ala Kevin Durant today and 2010 Kobe. He has those moments when he can elevate and shoot and get you a basket. PJ Tucker can't do that, rookie TJ can't do that and I'm not betting on Zoran being able to either. We won 10+ games thanks to the resurgence (out of nowhere) of Gerald Green, let's keep cashing in on it.

SideSwipe · Post #526 » by **SideSwipe** » Sat Sep 13, 2014 5:03 pm

drewsprocket wrote:Green was a welcome surprise but he was not a difference maker. He scored a lot of points on a team without a lot of scorers and down it's #2 guy. We were not a playoff team so I'm not all hot and bothered by anyone's stats. Dragic was amazing as he carried the load for our offense and what Keef was able to do off the bench.

People are often too quick to talk about Green in this light. If he was not an efficient shooter, then this statement would have been true. Fact is he was very efficient and scored at a high rate with a 1.287 scoring efficiency and a .547 shooting efficiency. For a guard that is very good. His shooting efficiency was actually higher than Hardens at .529, which is also darn good. Harden kills it on scoring efficiency due to his proclivity for getting to the line (1.536). As an additional reference Kobe Bryant's Career scoring efficiency number is 1.301, and he never has a shooting efficiency season like Green did this last year. Kobe's highest shooting efficiency year he rated a .504, and had a career average of .487

Say what you will about Green's earlier years, but last year he was good. He put up some pretty rare numbers, and was a difference maker down the stretch in many games. I distinctly remember several games where the opposing players were just shaking their heads in frustration at how hot he got.

Fo-Real · Post #527 » by **Fo-Real** » Sat Sep 13, 2014 9:14 pm

if Green makes any improvement on his defense ball handling and knowledge of the ofense... he's going to be a beast.

ImNotMcDiSwear · Post #528 » by **ImNotMcDiSwear** » Sat Sep 13, 2014 9:17 pm

To what degree do people think our depth is a problem? Does anyone think it's not a problem?

I marked, for every player, the fewest amount of minutes I can imagine Hornacek playing him in a regular season game where that player is healthy and absent special circumstances. I assume Bledsoe is on the QO. Then I marked in parentheses how many minutes each player averaged last season.

Bledsoe 26 (33) - Thomas 25 MPG (35) - Ennis 0 MPG (0)
Dragic 29 (35) - Green 20 (28) - Goodwin 0 (10)
Tucker 19 (31) - Warren 18 MPG (0) - Zoran 0 (0)
Markieff 28 (27) - Marcus 20 (22) - Tolliver 7 (20)
Plumlee 22 (25) - Alex 12 (9) - Randolph 0 (7)

After that slaughterfest of disappointment, I have harvested 13 minutes to distribute. (But! Give them to someone who is not a center with the knowledge that you're causing Markieff, Marcus or Tolliver to play center.) To whom should Coach give the minutes? I look at that roster and think, if we're not competing for the championship, our players will get very tired of this situation very fast.

Take Bledsoe out of the equation and things start to ease up (as our prospects for competing decline). Assume last year's MPG totals for the vets, and you're short only 7 minutes: a deficiency one can reasonably expect to be made up for by injuries over the course of a year. You still have a glut of young players in want of PT. I think Markieff and Alex would need more time, and Isaiah, PJ, Archie and Goran can play less. I also think that with Eric gone, Tyler has to see time. Notice that we're still deep. A fringe playoff team, I'd say.

Isaiah 30 - Tyler 4 - Jackson 0
Goran 32 - Gerald 26 - Archie 4
PJ 24 - TJ 18 - Zoran 0
Markieff 30 - Marcus 24 - Tolliver 6
Miles 24 - Alex 16 - Randolph 0

In this scenario, assuming we're unable to make a big trade, I think you just start marching the vets down the plank of replacement.

Just_Win · Post #529 » by **Just_Win** » Sat Sep 13, 2014 9:49 pm

Jdiddy701 wrote:You guys are crazy by sending Green out. Without Green, Suns are a bad team. Without Green and Bledsoe we are the worst team in the West. Did you guys not watch last season? Dragic and Markieff alone can not make this team go. Gerald Green should be in the Suns future plans. Pay the man.

Looking at Gerald's past is what everyone is doing. This guy was really good for us last year and should be extended. IMO, the way he played last season he should be our starting SG this season if Bledsoe is out and would do a hell of a job.

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Agreed

NavLDO · Post #530 » by **NavLDO** » Sat Sep 13, 2014 11:54 pm

So, question to those that follow this stuff more than I. As we get closer to 1 Oct with Bledsoe still unsigned, will teams start to get a little 'antsy' about trying to pull a trade before the deadline, possibly offering a bit more than what I presume has already been offered by several teams in a S&T? Or does this opportunity become less likely.

You'd have to think with all the guards we have in the team that at least one other, if not two, out of Green/Goodwin/Ennis/Bogdan rights, group are added in a trade scenario with Bledsoe to HOPEFULLY get a decent veteran or rookie with upside, 'big', back in a trade.

I can't see us going into the season with this many guards...especially if we do sign Zoran. If Bledsoe signs his QO, how much time does he get since we have a substantial number of guards? Yes, he's probably the best of the group, but knowing he won't be here next year, do you sacrifice getting the 'keepers' of the group familiar with each other/system in order to 'eek' out a few more wins? I've stated that I'd play him full starter minutes in the past, but now I wonder if that would be the smart answer. Honestly, hopefully, we are able to trade him in a package to get a big. And if not, then we need to sign him to a 4 year deal. The QO is just a bad deal for both parties.

Zelaznyrules · Post #531 » by **Zelaznyrules** » Sun Sep 14, 2014 12:07 am

Suns Court 23 wrote:
drewsprocket wrote:Green was a welcome surprise but he was not a difference maker. He scored a lot of points on a team without a lot of scorers and down it's #2 guy. We were not a playoff team so I'm not all hot and bothered by anyone's stats. Dragic was amazing as he carried the load for our offense and what Keef was able to do off the bench.

We would have never been in the playoff picture after Bledsoe went down if it weren't for Green stepping up and becoming the 2nd option of the offense. He was a HUGE difference maker and was the reason we had a chance at the playoffs anyway.

Agreed. There were minutes and sometimes nights when Green was the best player on the court, for either team. And it didn't matter that we were playing OKC or LAC or whoever, he dominated the best of the league. I don't know how you bottle those moments and get him to play like that every night but there is value in having a player who can do that even if he can only do it on occasion. We were a much better team last year with him than we would have been without him.

BurningHeart · Post #532 » by **BurningHeart** » Sun Sep 14, 2014 3:38 am

No no, Green was definitely an important player last year. Will be interesting to see whether it's something he can sustain and we need to keep him (like a guy who just finds his role in a system and just emerges) or if it's something we need to "sell high" on. He hit a ton of lucky shots last year. **** that I don't know if he can replicate.

I don't know.

Revived · Post #533 » by **Revived** » Sun Sep 14, 2014 6:07 am

Idk if yall already talked about this but the 2K 15 ratings are out. Ennis is rated higher than Len and Goodwin.... :lol:

And then Tolliver and Warren ranked below Dudley who was dead awful for LAC :lol:

nevetsov · Post #534 » by **nevetsov** » Sun Sep 14, 2014 6:24 am

I think if we manage to retain Bledsoe long term, we'll roll out a core of Goran-Bled-Tucker-Markieff (improved) and see where that takes us.

If Bled takes the QO, use him this year until one of the young wings are ready to start, then flip him to a team for a pick. Perhaps fleece a playoff team hit by the injury bug (Rose/Westbrook/Rondo/Curry/Paul?)... Someone will go down.

Eg. Goran/ Bledsoe/ Tucker replaced by:

Goran/ Goodwin/ Tucker
Goran/ Zoran/ Tucker
Goran/ Tucker/ Warren

If there is no option other than trade, we're going to take a step back before we take a step forward. We pool young talent around Goran and Markieff and hope that Goran is still vintage by the time our youth have developed. Bledsoe/ Green/ Tucker is a solid 1-3 and should be able to land something nice from a mediocre team desperate to start winning. Perhaps a large expiring (to get out of Tucker's deal) and a high pick. Rudy Gay perhaps and an unprotected 1st from Sac?

Blackification · Post #535 » by **Blackification** » Sun Sep 14, 2014 6:27 am

nevetsov wrote:I think if we manage to retain Bledsoe long term, we'll roll out a core of Goran-Bled-Tucker-Markieff (improved) and see where that takes us.

If Bled takes the QO, use him this year until one of the young wings are ready to start, then flip him to a team for a pick. Perhaps fleece a playoff team hit by the injury bug (Rose/Westbrook/Rondo/Curry/Paul?)... Someone will go down.

Eg. Goran/ Bledsoe/ Tucker replaced by:

Goran/ Goodwin/ Tucker
Goran/ Zoran/ Tucker
Goran/ Tucker/ Warren

If there is no option other than trade, we're going to take a step back before we take a step forward. We pool young talent around Goran and Markieff and hope that Goran is still vintage by the time our youth have developed. Bledsoe/ Green/ Tucker is a solid 1-3 and should be able to land something nice from a mediocre team desperate to start winning. Perhaps a large expiring (to get out of Tucker's deal) and a high pick. Rudy Gay perhaps and an unprotected 1st from Sac?

What about isaiah?

nevetsov · Post #536 » by **nevetsov** » Sun Sep 14, 2014 7:32 am

Blackification wrote:What about isaiah?

He'll be very useful as a spark plug 6th man (e.g. Peak Barbosa) but I don't see him being a starter on a championship calibre team. Especially not alongside Goran, I don't think he's good enough defensively. Hoping he can prove me wrong though - he came out of the gate last season and I actually had him pegged as the 3rd best PG in the league through to Christmas.

phrazbit · Post #537 » by **phrazbit** » Sun Sep 14, 2014 10:29 am

SF88 wrote:Idk if yall already talked about this but the 2K 15 ratings are out. Ennis is rated higher than Len and Goodwin....

And then Tolliver and Warren ranked below Dudley who was dead awful for LAC

Well, Goodwin and Len did not show much or play much last season, and comparing college careers Ennis was much much better than either of them.

And I would expect Dudley to be rated much higher than either Warren or (especially) Tolliver. Dudley is what he is, a spot up shooter, who works hard but is unathletic. He got lost in the shuffle in LA. While Warren is a rookie, if his rating is above 70 thats high standing for a video game rookie, Tolliver meanwhile... who the **** cares? You honestly think his rating should be higher than Dudley? A 6'8" "big man" who is basically a homeless man's version of Channing Frye?

Saberestar · Post #538 » by **Saberestar** » Sun Sep 14, 2014 12:59 pm

SF88 wrote:Idk if yall already talked about this but the 2K 15 ratings are out. Ennis is rated higher than Len and Goodwin....

And then Tolliver and Warren ranked below Dudley who was dead awful for LAC

Until today we have known these Suns' players ratings :
Shavlik Randolph 64
Alex Len 67
Archie Goodwin 69
Tyler Ennis 71
T.J. Warren 72
Anthony Tolliver 73

2k has changed this year his system for ratings....the worst player is rated at 64,and only 4 players are rated higer than 90.
I think our players are very well rated...probable Ennis is more like a 69,but is all good.

Bulk · Post #539 » by **Bulk** » Sun Sep 14, 2014 1:22 pm

Saberestar wrote:
SF88 wrote:Idk if yall already talked about this but the 2K 15 ratings are out. Ennis is rated higher than Len and Goodwin....

And then Tolliver and Warren ranked below Dudley who was dead awful for LAC

Until today we have known these Suns' players ratings :
Shavlik Randolph 64
Alex Len 67
Archie Goodwin 69
Tyler Ennis 71
T.J. Warren 72
Anthony Tolliver 73

2k has changed this year his system for ratings....the worst player is rated at 64,and only 4 players are rated higer than 90.
I think our players are very well rated...probable Ennis is more like a 69,but is all good.

Kendall Marshall is 74. Dear god.

Fo-Real · Post #540 » by **Fo-Real** » Sun Sep 14, 2014 3:06 pm

Ennis looked very confident during summer league. Did not set it on fire but didnt look out of place either. He ran the ofense well, hanged the ball well, and made the right play when it presented itself. Wasn't trying all kinds of crazy behind yt? He back passes, long threes, trying to drive and getting charges (Archie), he stays in his lane and was solid.