OT - Current Affairs/COVID/Vaccines, etc

[Barkley6]

I agree that more and more people are in this flock mentality, but I would definitely not categorize everyone that way. I have never blindly followed all of the opinions of either side and have been an independent.

Due to my nature I am driven by data, and data that is verified or I can verify. My personal opinion is it seems extremely dumb not to get a vaccine or especially not get one and not wear a mask, but if those people want to risk it, they may have to pay a big price. It is unfortunate that these people may infect others, but if vaccinated others continue to take all the necessary precautions given this herd anti vax mentality out there, hopefully the vaccinated folks can avoid anything serious, ...and the data shows that's largely the case, even in the unlikely case they do get infected.

The problem with this, though, is the unvaccinated will be the reason new variants take hold. Those variants could even be vaccine resistant, quickly putting us back to square one when so many have tried their hardest to be responsible and do the correct thing according to the science. There's already a variant (C.1.2) that is looking to be much more contagious and even may be semi-vaccine resistant (small amount of data at this point).

People that have a proclivity to call others sheep taking deworming meds made for livestock instead of the insanely studied and verified for human-use vaccines is the height of irony.

There's not a single hospital in the world full of people dying from the vaccination, however, there's more than enough full of those that refuse science and decide to take their chances with their "immune system" (that doesn't know how to handle this virus because it does not have the blueprints to do so, as it is novel).

I've seen the numbers of vaccinated vs unvaccinated hospitalizations and deaths. I am not a scientist so I don't know about new strains arising, but I was told a while back prior to the delta variant that once enough people have had it, are resistant, etc, that is when it is most likely to mutate, because it is desperately looking for new hosts. So I am not sure about the more unvaccinated being a direct cause for mutations or if it was the other way around. Anyway, with any new strains, I imagine they will eventually develop a vaccine to help out with that, somewhat like the flu shot.

Mutation happens during reproduction, the more it reproduces the higher chance for a mutation. So if people are NOT vaccinated and the virus is able to reproduce rapidly in their system, over a longer period of time, mutations are more likely to occur. The more people that are unvaccinated, the more likely there are to be mutations.

While you can be infected while vaccinated, your immune system will be stronger (due to the vaccine) and help you kill and shed the virus faster, thus preventing opportunities for mutation.

[cberry78]

One more to add to my block list.

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

One more to add to my block list.

I wonder witch poster he's talking abowt. Hmmm...

You're in on it, aren't you!!!

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

I agree that more and more people are in this flock mentality, but I would definitely not categorize everyone that way. I have never blindly followed all of the opinions of either side and have been an independent and not in any "flock" on independents. I don't watch a bunch of stuff on tv or join/follow any certain groups, read biased publications, etc.

You know you're smarter than the average bear, right?

Even among smart people, social influence is an exceptionally strong factor in the development of opinion. Intelligence is complicated. You can be brilliant in some or other regard, and yet still highly susceptible to social influence. Others may not be so brilliant and yet critical thinking comes naturally.

I guess I'll put a finer point on it: maybe about 70-80% of people gather their opinions primarily by social influence. I had a fairly peculiar and isolated upbringing and for that reason I think I'm pretty resistant to social influence. Probably also helps that I hold myself in pretty high regard. I respect and use data, but reasoning and logic are the truth-seeking methods with which I'm most comfortable, being an attorney who majored in philosophy in undergrad.

Still, I'm surrounded by professionals, attorneys and educators in a relatively affluent college town, so pretty much everyone holds positions similar to my own: they are, in many ways, my flock. But in my opinion, most of the people in "our" flock (if you would be so generous) are not altogether much cleverer or more resistant to influence than people in the "other" flock. It just seems that the wolves have taken charge of the other flock, and pretty much all their most clever sheep have either left or joined in the fleecing. It doesn't have to be that way. Our flock could just as easily divide, and if the fools could be led astray, I'm certain they'd be the overwhelming majority.

It feels a little mean to talk too honestly about this. So when I talk to the believers of the nonsense, I don't generally ask what I think would be the most pointed questions, like, How did you do in high school? What do you do for a living? All the people you talk to about this stuff, are they educated? Do they have degrees? Has anyone who holds your views demonstrated intellectual prowess and integrity, and if so, do they get paid from ad revenue or by think tanks with undisclosed donors? Not that *any* line of questioning is likely to pierce the veil of a mark, but like I said the last time this issue came up, I really do feel like being mean is probably the way to go if we're trying to shake people out of their stupor.

[cberry78]

One more to add to my block list.

I wonder witch poster he's talking abowt. Hmmm...

You're in on it, aren't you!!!

[bwgood77]

I agree that more and more people are in this flock mentality, but I would definitely not categorize everyone that way. I have never blindly followed all of the opinions of either side and have been an independent and not in any "flock" on independents. I don't watch a bunch of stuff on tv or join/follow any certain groups, read biased publications, etc.

You know you're smarter than the average bear, right?

Even among smart people, social influence is an exceptionally strong factor in the development of opinion. Intelligence is complicated. You can be brilliant in some or other regard, and yet still highly susceptible to social influence. Others may not be so brilliant and yet critical thinking comes naturally.

I guess I'll put a finer point on it: maybe about 70-80% of people gather their opinions primarily by social influence. I had a fairly peculiar and isolated upbringing and for that reason I think I'm pretty resistant to social influence. Probably also helps that I hold myself in pretty high regard. I respect and use data, but reasoning and logic are the truth-seeking methods with which I'm most comfortable, being an attorney who majored in philosophy in undergrad.

Still, I'm surrounded by professionals, attorneys and educators in a relatively affluent college town, so pretty much everyone holds positions similar to my own: they are, in many ways, my flock. But in my opinion, most of the people in "our" flock (if you would be so generous) are not altogether much cleverer or more resistant to influence than people in the "other" flock. It just seems that the wolves have taken charge of the other flock, and pretty much all their most clever sheep have either left or joined in the fleecing. It doesn't have to be that way. Our flock could just as easily divide, and if the fools could be led astray, I'm certain they'd be the overwhelming majority.

It feels a little mean to talk too honestly about this. So when I talk to the believers of the nonsense, I don't generally ask what I think would be the most pointed questions, like, How did you do in high school? What do you do for a living? All the people you talk to about this stuff, are they educated? Do they have degrees? Has anyone who holds your views demonstrated intellectual prowess and integrity, and if so, do they get paid from ad revenue or by think tanks with undisclosed donors? Not that *any* line of questioning is likely to pierce the veil of a mark, but like I said the last time this issue came up, I really do feel like being mean is probably the way to go if we're trying to shake people out of their stupor.

Well I would never call myself brilliant or extremely intelligent. I always think of things I've heard along the lines of "never call yourself __________ because there is always someone _________er laughing at you." (rich, smart, whatever)

Anyway, I have always HATED the right vs left and everyone deciding to believe something because a political party does. Some of it doesn't make a whole lot of sense "religious party - don't kill babies - don't take away our guns". Some could even say "let women make their own choices with their bodies, but GET VACCINATED everyone!" That seems contradictory even though I would support both. Anyway, it's the same with religion. So yes, you grow up with something, surrounded by people and you may believe a certain way. And in college I did experience some of that, but also felt it was kind of stupid and the more removed I got the more ridiculous I thought some of it was.

But there is stuff on both sides of politic sides I find ridiculous. I mean people grow up believing in Santa Claus and learn at some point it's not real but they will believe anything certain people tell them the rest of their lives.

So I do agree with a lot of what you say, and social media/targeted ads/talk radio/US news stations have made it far worse over the last 20+ years.

You'd think the internet, with so much more information at your disposal than 30 years ago when it was local news, less cable news, newspapers, and radio...where you got a few sources for your information outside of reading stuff at the library or bookstore...that people would become more knowledgeable, not less...but that doesn't seem to have been the case overall.

[lilfishi22]

Good, there's no excuse outside of medical reasons to not be vaccinated in the United States at this point. And that's all I'll say, I'm not interested in derailing a thread with political garbage when it should only be medical truths.

Fair.

So what is the medical truth. Will getting a shot prevent you from getting it or spreading it and how many shots does it take. Those are the multi-billion dollar questions many are asking.

It's a controversial issue because of so many sources of information and illogical decisions.

No, it's controversial because of politics and identity. I also don't want to derail things but the truth is most people - and I mean almost everyone - are sheep. We're just part of different flocks. You can justify any position no matter how nonsensical, and people will tend to justify those positions they have -- which are just the positions their flocks have.

If you think you're an independent thinker, I guarantee you're part of a flock of "independent thinkers," or several such flocks. And if you want to talk logic, I'll just say to beware of motivated reasoning or "cherrypicking," the genealogical fallacy and most of all, ad hoc. Does one not believe in science unless and until a study supports one's position? Does one use a particular principle to defend a position and then invent reasons why the same principle does not apply to the next situation? Are your beliefs and thoughts a big puzzle that you spend time trying to figure out, or is the scaffolding of your mind rickety or bare but nonetheless capable of reaching lofty heights?

If your goal is to be correct, the first step is to be humble. And don't open your mind so much that your brain falls out. From where I stand, I see our society collapsing under the weight of sheer, stubborn stupidity and willful blindness. Is that how Rome fell? Because too many Romans were infected by mass hysterical stupidity? Don't believe I've read that anywhere. Guess it'll just be another remarkable new path trailblazed by America.

Agree with this. Those using the word sheeple to refer to other groups are as much sheeple themselves....just "believing" in something else.

That being said, there are flocks who are aligning to the scientific consensus, aligning to the medical consensus, aligning to the statistics and deferring to experts who have been in the field doing real work for years if not decades.

Then there are flocks who believe they have the answer because they watched some 1hr clip on Youtube from an non-expert who's already discredited and think they are the woke ones because they did this "research". The issue I see is that the ones in this flock have a starting position of not believing in the scientific method (which our current technological advancement has been built on) to begin with or that there has to be a devious narrative.

If you take the subject out and look at ANY debate in a vacuum, it's pretty clear, simple and objectively reasonable to give significantly more weight behind the flock that has the science, has the data and has the medical evidence to back up their claims vs the other flock which has nothing but a starting prejudicial narrative, speculation and outright misinformation/lies which don't have any evidence behind it.

[grumpysaddle]

Good, there's no excuse outside of medical reasons to not be vaccinated in the United States at this point. And that's all I'll say, I'm not interested in derailing a thread with political garbage when it should only be medical truths.

Fair.

So what is the medical truth. Will getting a shot prevent you from getting it or spreading it and how many shots does it take. Those are the multi-billion dollar questions many are asking.

It's a controversial issue because of so many sources of information and illogical decisions.

UK: 80% of people in ICU are inoculated with those products just approved for emergency reasons.
This is not politics, neither science.
THIS IS CONTROL OVER US

Vaccines (which are not, but for our understanding) where developed quickly, with no trials and for a theoric virus that no one has proved to exist.

Literally none of that is true. But you don't really care what's true and not true as long as it fits your cuckoo for cocoa puffs views. Byeeeeeeee.

[lilfishi22]

Literally none of that is true. But you don't really care what's true and not true as long as it fits your cuckoo for cocoa puffs views. Byeeeeeeee.

I read something today on social media and found a quote in the writing that was particularly interesting and revealing

I wish I can find the damn quote but to paraphrase the guy, there is no magical combination of words that you can string together to get these people to change their minds.

Simple as that....you can write the most eloquent post known to mankind, backed up by evidence, fully referenced with the stamp of approval from a million scientists and medical professionals and it still won't change a damn thing. And you won't change their mind because they skim read something from Aunt Meredith's FB about her neighbour who is a plumber telling her that his mate from his fantasy baseball league who is a holistic healer told him that he heard from his sister who works for the Department of Education had heard a rumor that the vaccines was a way to control people. Oh and of course that rumor is backed up by evidence found on a grainy 480p video on YT recorded on a potato.

[grumpysaddle]

Literally none of that is true. But you don't really care what's true and not true as long as it fits your cuckoo for cocoa puffs views. Byeeeeeeee.

I read something today on social media and found a quote in the writing that was particularly interesting and revealing

I wish I can find the damn quote but to paraphrase the guy, there is no magical combination of words that you can string together to get these people to change their minds.

Simple as that....you can write the most eloquent post known to mankind, backed up by evidence, fully referenced with the stamp of approval from a million scientists and medical professionals and it still won't change a damn thing. And you won't change their mind because they skim read something from Aunt Meredith's FB about her neighbour who is a plumber telling her that his mate from his fantasy baseball league who is a holistic healer told him that he heard from his sister who works for the Department of Education had heard a rumor that the vaccines was a way to control people. Oh and of course that rumor is backed up by evidence found on a grainy 480p video on YT recorded on a potato.

I used to think Idiocracy was a pretty funny movie, but goddamn living in it **** sucks.

[Years90Suns]

The problem with this, though, is the unvaccinated will be the reason new variants take hold. Those variants could even be vaccine resistant, quickly putting us back to square one when so many have tried their hardest to be responsible and do the correct thing according to the science. There's already a variant (C.1.2) that is looking to be much more contagious and even may be semi-vaccine resistant (small amount of data at this point).

People that have a proclivity to call others sheep taking deworming meds made for livestock instead of the insanely studied and verified for human-use vaccines is the height of irony.

There's not a single hospital in the world full of people dying from the vaccination, however, there's more than enough full of those that refuse science and decide to take their chances with their "immune system" (that doesn't know how to handle this virus because it does not have the blueprints to do so, as it is novel).

I've seen the numbers of vaccinated vs unvaccinated hospitalizations and deaths. I am not a scientist so I don't know about new strains arising, but I was told a while back prior to the delta variant that once enough people have had it, are resistant, etc, that is when it is most likely to mutate, because it is desperately looking for new hosts. So I am not sure about the more unvaccinated being a direct cause for mutations or if it was the other way around. Anyway, with any new strains, I imagine they will eventually develop a vaccine to help out with that, somewhat like the flu shot.

Mutation happens during reproduction, the more it reproduces the higher chance for a mutation. So if people are NOT vaccinated and the virus is able to reproduce rapidly in their system, over a longer period of time, mutations are more likely to occur. The more people that are unvaccinated, the more likely there are to be mutations.

While you can be infected while vaccinated, your immune system will be stronger (due to the vaccine) and help you kill and shed the virus faster, thus preventing opportunities for mutation.

Remeber: 0.02% of deaths and almost 0% if you are under 80.
No reason for any treatment.
With MSM, you would have noticed anything different.
Comunism is working to get control of the world. This is a huge social experiment and everything has been planed in advance.

[Years90Suns]

Once that Malasyan Airlines flight plenty of epidemiologists dissapeared when going to a world meeting in Asia, many knew something was going to happen related to this.
No against voices should be around.

KIlling JFK.
KIlling Lady Di.
Killing MJ.
Killing Kobe.
KIlling MLK.
Killing everybody who can desturb your plans.

But the real sick thing is not the vaccines, which are scary and one has to be nuts to take it.
The realevil thing is human traficking and pedophile practices among those leading the world.

[grumpysaddle]

OMG. Seek help.

[Barkley6]

I've seen the numbers of vaccinated vs unvaccinated hospitalizations and deaths. I am not a scientist so I don't know about new strains arising, but I was told a while back prior to the delta variant that once enough people have had it, are resistant, etc, that is when it is most likely to mutate, because it is desperately looking for new hosts. So I am not sure about the more unvaccinated being a direct cause for mutations or if it was the other way around. Anyway, with any new strains, I imagine they will eventually develop a vaccine to help out with that, somewhat like the flu shot.

Mutation happens during reproduction, the more it reproduces the higher chance for a mutation. So if people are NOT vaccinated and the virus is able to reproduce rapidly in their system, over a longer period of time, mutations are more likely to occur. The more people that are unvaccinated, the more likely there are to be mutations.

While you can be infected while vaccinated, your immune system will be stronger (due to the vaccine) and help you kill and shed the virus faster, thus preventing opportunities for mutation.

Remeber: 0.02% of deaths and almost 0% if you are under 80.
No reason for any treatment.
With MSM, you would have noticed anything different.
Comunism is working to get control of the world. This is a huge social experiment and everything has been planed in advance.

Sounds dope. When can I expect Communism to win? Because living under late stage capitalism **** sucks.

[wheezy]

I agree that more and more people are in this flock mentality, but I would definitely not categorize everyone that way. I have never blindly followed all of the opinions of either side and have been an independent.

Due to my nature I am driven by data, and data that is verified or I can verify. My personal opinion is it seems extremely dumb not to get a vaccine or especially not get one and not wear a mask, but if those people want to risk it, they may have to pay a big price. It is unfortunate that these people may infect others, but if vaccinated others continue to take all the necessary precautions given this herd anti vax mentality out there, hopefully the vaccinated folks can avoid anything serious, ...and the data shows that's largely the case, even in the unlikely case they do get infected.

The problem with this, though, is the unvaccinated will be the reason new variants take hold. Those variants could even be vaccine resistant, quickly putting us back to square one when so many have tried their hardest to be responsible and do the correct thing according to the science. There's already a variant (C.1.2) that is looking to be much more contagious and even may be semi-vaccine resistant (small amount of data at this point).

People that have a proclivity to call others sheep taking deworming meds made for livestock instead of the insanely studied and verified for human-use vaccines is the height of irony.

There's not a single hospital in the world full of people dying from the vaccination, however, there's more than enough full of those that refuse science and decide to take their chances with their "immune system" (that doesn't know how to handle this virus because it does not have the blueprints to do so, as it is novel).

I've seen the numbers of vaccinated vs unvaccinated hospitalizations and deaths. I am not a scientist so I don't know about new strains arising, but I was told a while back prior to the delta variant that once enough people have had it, are resistant, etc, that is when it is most likely to mutate, because it is desperately looking for new hosts. So I am not sure about the more unvaccinated being a direct cause for mutations or if it was the other way around. Anyway, with any new strains, I imagine they will eventually develop a vaccine to help out with that, somewhat like the flu shot.

That isn't how mutations work though. It's all a matter of statistics, the more something replicates the more likely it is to **** up during the replication process (genetic drift), which *could* lead to a beneficial mutation allowing it to spread easier or into vaccinated populations. So if the virus is less likely to be transmitted to a vaccinated person, the rate of potential mutation is cut down.

Barkley beat me to the punch with the above bit, but I think it bears repeating that we're aiming at a moving target. The virus is going to eventually mutate, but slowing it down with a vaccinated population is going to severely cut into the rate we'll get new variants. Also, and more importantly, going to severely decrease the number of people dying or having severe responses.

[bwgood77]

The problem with this, though, is the unvaccinated will be the reason new variants take hold. Those variants could even be vaccine resistant, quickly putting us back to square one when so many have tried their hardest to be responsible and do the correct thing according to the science. There's already a variant (C.1.2) that is looking to be much more contagious and even may be semi-vaccine resistant (small amount of data at this point).

People that have a proclivity to call others sheep taking deworming meds made for livestock instead of the insanely studied and verified for human-use vaccines is the height of irony.

There's not a single hospital in the world full of people dying from the vaccination, however, there's more than enough full of those that refuse science and decide to take their chances with their "immune system" (that doesn't know how to handle this virus because it does not have the blueprints to do so, as it is novel).

I've seen the numbers of vaccinated vs unvaccinated hospitalizations and deaths. I am not a scientist so I don't know about new strains arising, but I was told a while back prior to the delta variant that once enough people have had it, are resistant, etc, that is when it is most likely to mutate, because it is desperately looking for new hosts. So I am not sure about the more unvaccinated being a direct cause for mutations or if it was the other way around. Anyway, with any new strains, I imagine they will eventually develop a vaccine to help out with that, somewhat like the flu shot.

That isn't how mutations work though. It's all a matter of statistics, the more something replicates the more likely it is to **** up during the replication process (genetic drift), which *could* lead to a beneficial mutation allowing it to spread easier or into vaccinated populations. So if the virus is less likely to be transmitted to a vaccinated person, the rate of potential mutation is cut down.

Barkley beat me to the punch with the above bit, but I think it bears repeating that we're aiming at a moving target. The virus is going to eventually mutate, but slowing it down with a vaccinated population is going to severely cut into the rate we'll get new variants. Also, and more importantly, going to severely decrease the number of people dying or having severe responses.

Make no mistake, I think everyone should get vaccinated given that 97% or whatever the #s of hospitalizations and deaths with this huge spike are unvaccinated people.

I am just not an expert on mutations and was told by someone who works in a lab with that stuff that mutations typically occur when strains of a virus are having trouble finding new hosts. I in no way think this should impact people getting a vaccine because when a mutation happens, often times the vaccination still works effectively for the most part, like now with Delta (although people may get it when vaccinated, they rarely have severe or lasting symptoms, very rarely go to the hospital and extremely rarely die. And then there will always be new vaccines to deal with things.

On another note, it's amazing reading the Current Affairs board Coronavirus thread and seeing stuff like this and hearing all the applause. I feel really bad for the kids of all these folks.

Read on Twitter

[lilfishi22]

Years90Suns is fuQ'd

[lilfishi22]

Literally none of that is true. But you don't really care what's true and not true as long as it fits your cuckoo for cocoa puffs views. Byeeeeeeee.

I read something today on social media and found a quote in the writing that was particularly interesting and revealing

I wish I can find the damn quote but to paraphrase the guy, there is no magical combination of words that you can string together to get these people to change their minds.

Simple as that....you can write the most eloquent post known to mankind, backed up by evidence, fully referenced with the stamp of approval from a million scientists and medical professionals and it still won't change a damn thing. And you won't change their mind because they skim read something from Aunt Meredith's FB about her neighbour who is a plumber telling her that his mate from his fantasy baseball league who is a holistic healer told him that he heard from his sister who works for the Department of Education had heard a rumor that the vaccines was a way to control people. Oh and of course that rumor is backed up by evidence found on a grainy 480p video on YT recorded on a potato.

I used to think Idiocracy was a pretty funny movie, but goddamn living in it **** sucks.

I used to think it was a funny but largely extreme caricature of Americans and I always watched it with the mindset that oh it's just a parody of very very small groups of people who think this way.

It's actually a thing now

[grumpysaddle]

I read something today on social media and found a quote in the writing that was particularly interesting and revealing

I wish I can find the damn quote but to paraphrase the guy, there is no magical combination of words that you can string together to get these people to change their minds.

Simple as that....you can write the most eloquent post known to mankind, backed up by evidence, fully referenced with the stamp of approval from a million scientists and medical professionals and it still won't change a damn thing. And you won't change their mind because they skim read something from Aunt Meredith's FB about her neighbour who is a plumber telling her that his mate from his fantasy baseball league who is a holistic healer told him that he heard from his sister who works for the Department of Education had heard a rumor that the vaccines was a way to control people. Oh and of course that rumor is backed up by evidence found on a grainy 480p video on YT recorded on a potato.

I used to think Idiocracy was a pretty funny movie, but goddamn living in it **** sucks.

I used to think it was a funny but largely extreme caricature of Americans and I always watched it with the mindset that oh it's just a parody of very very small groups of people who think this way.

It's actually a thing now

It's absolutely terrifying. I don't want to leave my family and friends really, but I'm really weighing the choice to seek an exit to another country my beliefs more closely match. It's just a really difficult process, even in non-global pandemic times.

Know any of your neighbors in New Zealand looking to get married to an American?? I can even pretend I'm Canadian!

[lilfishi22]

I used to think Idiocracy was a pretty funny movie, but goddamn living in it **** sucks.

I used to think it was a funny but largely extreme caricature of Americans and I always watched it with the mindset that oh it's just a parody of very very small groups of people who think this way.

It's actually a thing now

It's absolutely terrifying. I don't want to leave my family and friends really, but I'm really weighing the choice to seek an exit to another country my beliefs more closely match. It's just a really difficult process, even in non-global pandemic times.

Know any of your neighbors in New Zealand looking to get married to an American?? I can even pretend I'm Canadian!

I always looked at Kiwi's as kind of the Canadians of Oceania whereas Aussies were the Americans. So maybe it's just my bias and prejudice but I've always loved NZ and see them as Aussies without the ego and Aussie "exceptionalism" - similar to US/Canada.

If you can find a Kiwi partner to marry you, you've won the lottery