The 2016 Offseason Thread

[OGBAH]

Booker 4th option?

[OGBAH]

2k bench is fire
Len
Bender
Chriss
Book
Ulis

3 passers 3 shooters

[NavLDO]

I didn't say none of these players has any upside. Just that their upside isn't all that great. I think they're complementary players. I like Booker - but at best, I see him as a Joe Johnson level of player- who was a third or fourth option on a good team.

Chriss a a pretty good athlete, but not sure how much he well develop as a basketball player. Bender may eventually be a decent player, but both are so young they will likely be playing for another team by the time they're ready to contribute.

I still have hopes for Len, and I like Warren. But again, these guys aren't stars. Just solid complementary players or rotation guys.

Joe Johnson was a seven-time all-star and was 1st option on the Hawks for many years. I'd love to see Booker at that level. Booker's second season will be indicative of his star potential.

Also, there was this 18 year old guy who for his rookie season averaged 7.6 points .417 shooting 1.9 rebounds 1.3 assists .7 steals 1.6 turnovers over 15.5 minutes per game. Nothing special. Next season he was an all-star. Chriss and Bender haven't even had a chance to play an NBA game and you have christened them as lifetime rotation players. You can't make snap judgements dude. Joe Johnson had three years under his belt before he really took off. BTW Kobe was that player I mentioned and he was drafted 13th. By your judge of player talent Kobe would been less than an average starter.

You really going to try and use Kobe as an example? It was obvious Kobe was going to be fhujknmdfhbjdksnmgasjldfknabhlsjfn God I can't even finish my sarcastic response because it's so asinine....

Some former Suns to consider who were late bloomers:

Nash's numbers in his first 4 seasons: 21.7 minutes 43.8% FG 7.2 points 3.8 assists 1.9 rebounds 1.5 turnovers

Goran "I wish he was here!" Dragic after 3 seasons: 16.6 minutes 43.4% FG 6.8 points 2.7 assists 2.0 rebounds 1.5 turnovers

Marcin "Grown Ass Man, Best Suns Center" Gortat after 3 seasons: 12.8 minutes 54.5% FG 3.7 points 4.3 rebounds .8 blocks

From around the league:

Jimmy Butler after 3 seasons: 26.6 minutes 42.5% FG 8.9 points 1.6 assists 3.7 rebounds 1.1 steals .9 turnovers

Jeff "Better than our guards" Teague after 3 seasons: 18.7 minutes 45.1% FG 6.9 points 2.8 assists 1.6 rebounds 1.2 turnovers

Paul "We should trade for him now!" Millsap after 3 seasons: 22.8 minutes 52.3 FG% 9.4 points 6.4 rebounds .9 blocks

Now, let's look at our "busts":

Alex "Should've had Noel" Len after 3 seasons: 19.6 minutes 45.1% FG 6.5 points 6.1 rebounds 1.0 block

Archie "Miyagi's" Goodwin after 3 seasons: 14.5 minutes 41.9% FG 6.2 points 1.2 assists 2.0 rebounds 1.3 turnovers

EDIT: Realized everyone but Nash was 3 seasons so here are Nash's numbers after 3: 20.0 minutes 42.5% FG 6.7 points 3.4 assists 1.9 rebounds 1.3 turnovers

Bust, Bust, Bust...'we could've had Gobert!!!'

Gobert--198 FGs - 182, or 92% made at the rim. 14, or 7% made from 3-10ft

A. Len--264 FGs - 158, or 60% made at the rim. 42, or 16% made 16ft-3PT line

Gobert--60 starts / 61 Total gms / 32 MPG - 20 Dbl-Dbls

A. Len--46 starts / 78 Total gms / 23 MPG - 19 Dbl-Dbls

Gobert--Per36--10.4Pts / 12.4 TRB, FT%--.569

A. Len--Per36--13.9Pts /11.7 TRB, FT%--.728

Point being, is Gobert is darn good at what he does, but he hasn't been asked to stretch his range like Alex, so Gobert blows Alex away in FG%s, DRtg/ORtg, etc., but they are two completely different players, and I have no doubt that Len could put up equal Blks and comparable DRtg/ORtg if he was only asked to do what is asked of Gobert...well, because he has earlier in his career.

But it's only been 3 years, and he has over 800 less minutes than Gobert, so he's behind him in both age and experience; we'll learn a lot this season, about Len, and if he doesn't improve, well, then I guess we have no better than a 'marginal starter', but I honestly believe, if he stays healthy this season, he'll progress.

[bwgood77]

Joe Johnson was a seven-time all-star and was 1st option on the Hawks for many years. I'd love to see Booker at that level. Booker's second season will be indicative of his star potential.

Also, there was this 18 year old guy who for his rookie season averaged 7.6 points .417 shooting 1.9 rebounds 1.3 assists .7 steals 1.6 turnovers over 15.5 minutes per game. Nothing special. Next season he was an all-star. Chriss and Bender haven't even had a chance to play an NBA game and you have christened them as lifetime rotation players. You can't make snap judgements dude. Joe Johnson had three years under his belt before he really took off. BTW Kobe was that player I mentioned and he was drafted 13th. By your judge of player talent Kobe would been less than an average starter.

You really going to try and use Kobe as an example? It was obvious Kobe was going to be fhujknmdfhbjdksnmgasjldfknabhlsjfn God I can't even finish my sarcastic response because it's so asinine....

Some former Suns to consider who were late bloomers:

Nash's numbers in his first 4 seasons: 21.7 minutes 43.8% FG 7.2 points 3.8 assists 1.9 rebounds 1.5 turnovers

Goran "I wish he was here!" Dragic after 3 seasons: 16.6 minutes 43.4% FG 6.8 points 2.7 assists 2.0 rebounds 1.5 turnovers

Marcin "Grown Ass Man, Best Suns Center" Gortat after 3 seasons: 12.8 minutes 54.5% FG 3.7 points 4.3 rebounds .8 blocks

From around the league:

Jimmy Butler after 3 seasons: 26.6 minutes 42.5% FG 8.9 points 1.6 assists 3.7 rebounds 1.1 steals .9 turnovers

Jeff "Better than our guards" Teague after 3 seasons: 18.7 minutes 45.1% FG 6.9 points 2.8 assists 1.6 rebounds 1.2 turnovers

Paul "We should trade for him now!" Millsap after 3 seasons: 22.8 minutes 52.3 FG% 9.4 points 6.4 rebounds .9 blocks

Now, let's look at our "busts":

Alex "Should've had Noel" Len after 3 seasons: 19.6 minutes 45.1% FG 6.5 points 6.1 rebounds 1.0 block

Archie "Miyagi's" Goodwin after 3 seasons: 14.5 minutes 41.9% FG 6.2 points 1.2 assists 2.0 rebounds 1.3 turnovers

EDIT: Realized everyone but Nash was 3 seasons so here are Nash's numbers after 3: 20.0 minutes 42.5% FG 6.7 points 3.4 assists 1.9 rebounds 1.3 turnovers

Bust, Bust, Bust...'we could've had Gobert!!!'

Gobert--198 FGs - 182, or 92% made at the rim. 14, or 7% made from 3-10ft

A. Len--264 FGs - 158, or 60% made at the rim. 42, or 16% made 16ft-3PT line

Gobert--60 starts / 61 Total gms / 32 MPG - 20 Dbl-Dbls

A. Len--46 starts / 78 Total gms / 23 MPG - 19 Dbl-Dbls

Gobert--Per36--10.4Pts / 12.4 TRB, FT%--.569

A. Len--Per36--13.9Pts /11.7 TRB, FT%--.728

Point being, is Gobert is darn good at what he does, but he hasn't been asked to stretch his range like Alex, so Gobert blows Alex away in FG%s, DRtg/ORtg, etc., but they are two completely different players, and I have no doubt that Len could put up equal Blks and comparable DRtg/ORtg if he was only asked to do what is asked of Gobert...well, because he has earlier in his career.

But it's only been 3 years, and he has over 800 less minutes than Gobert, so he's behind him in both age and experience; we'll learn a lot this season, about Len, and if he doesn't improve, well, then I guess we have no better than a 'marginal starter', but I honestly believe, if he stays healthy this season, he'll progress.

Nav, I think you've proven a point. A point that you like Len more than Gobert. I doubt any team would take Len over Gobert and I doubt it would be close. I hope to see drastic improvements from Len as his shooting was awful (and yes, that could probably has to do with playing more away from the basket, but it was god awful at times and he wasn't particularly good around the rim). I attribute it more to not playing with Bledsoe. His shooting was better early in the season, and he was often money from right around the free throw line. His rebounding drastically improved throughout the year, and I'm guessing he learned a thing or two from Chandler.

Gobert isn't their for his offense. He's there for his rim protection and defense and is already among the best at that in the league.

[bwgood77]

Best Homer ?

take your pick. You guys just have such a hard time with alternative views, especially if the 'pessimism meter' is equal to your 'optimism meter'. Then its a full on dog pile, biting, scratching, and kicking optional. Troll ? really ? Hardly. So what am I then ? A cranky old guy who sits on a porch rather than under a bridge ? hahaha

I hope these kids pan out eventually... and sooner than later. What I find disturbing is the lackluster attempt to better this team via free agency or trade. I do hold confidence in McMully's penchant for roster shuffling and am conceding the route of a patient approach to get through this wacky spending spree. But you don't build half a team then quit by touting the future. We have a good core and some possible stars in the making... However, the sun is setting on Bleds time here, has all but set on Chandler, Tucker, Duds, and Barbs.... it just seems like more should/could be done for this season. And yeah, that would mean signing some old guy who can actually play PF, or trading for a up and comer. (see, even I have hope, though it might not fit into the youther agenda)

(go easy on this one Nav... you have already bombed away your load for the weekend)

Yes, alternative views are what makes a forum good. Attacking people for these opinions, particularly someone who hasn't posted much, doesn't much allow for an open forum with good discussion. Now if someone spouts the same thing non stop, it can get old and it's not worth beating a dead horse. Alternative opinions is not trolling unless they are nonstop, everywhere, littering every thread.

As for the rest of your post. A trade would be nice, but McD seems to have developed more patience after the knee jerk trade deadline moves of 2015. Sometimes to the team's detriment, as Markieff killed the team atmosphere and perhaps the season. But the silver lining is getting a lottery pick and using that to take someone they really wanted, obtaining two top 8 picks.

I don't necessarily think the sun is setting on Bled, as he seems to have finally embraced that leadership role. Now health is a key factor, considering he's had season ending injuries in two of his three years here. If it happens again, and even if it doesn't, we need to add true PG depth in next year's draft if we don't get a top 3 or 4 pick and get one of the highly touted forwards, or if a center breaks out in college and can back up Len or perhaps eventually replace him.

I think our big advantage relative to the league is everyone blowing their wad this summer before the projected cap going down and far fewer teams having cap space for a max player next summer with a better FA class.

[sunsbum]

Who cares if he hasnt post here much, hes trolling.
If hes allowed to put out these obnoxious "opinions" then he can handle himself just fine when the townsfolk come out.

[sunsbum]

:o Booker 4th option?

its a valid opinion

[Joe Pong]

Spoiler:

Ummm....you kinda did:



I'm not sure if you are aware of what you even posted, but there it is again, for you. So, when you say this is a 'bad roster without a lot of upside', then follow that with 'There are no young...potential stars...', well, that's saying that 'none of these players has any upside', and I'm not sure how you can defend that. Are you going to try and go the semantics route and say that since you said 'without A LOT OF UPSIDE', that that does not = 'any upside'?? Because if you try that, well, that's not going to fly, especially when you follow that up with 'There are no young...potential stars...', that's pretty much saying that none of our young guys have upside.

And if you honestly think we do not have any 'All-Star' potential between Len, Warren, Booker, Chriss, Bender, or Ulis, not to mention Bledsoe, well, that's simply impossible to speculate for everyone on that list I just provided besides Bledsoe. How can you POSSIBLY have ANY clue as to how an 18-22YO player will develop in 3-4 years??? That's no different than saying that all of them have major upside and all are definite future All-Stars. No one can possibly know this. Can you even fathom how many different factors go into how these guys will develop??

There's Team Trainers, Asst Coaching, Head Coaching, Veteran mentorship, Free Agency, self-motivation, playing opportunity, injuries, so on and so forth. NO ONE has any idea what these young players will become.

And then, this gem..."There are no young superstars or potential stars who can be the building blocks of a contending team"...just, wow, hence my 'crystal-ball' comment. Are you aware that the 60th overall player from the 2011 draft was an All-Star this year? The guy we just traded away a year and a half ago? Did you imagine he would become an All-Star? I'm sure if we asked you that question 5 years ago, you would've said the exact same thing you posted earlier.

So when you say silly things like 'there are no superstars or potential stars who can be building blocks of a contending team', you can sure as heck expect others to call you out on that, because you are clueless. Booker's ceiling is an 'adequate starter'?? I mean, do you read what you type before you post it??

OK, no point even continuing, and I've just wasted several minutes of my life that I'll never get back debating with a poster who thinks Booker's ceiling is an adequate starter. Do me a favor and go post that on the GB and see what responses you get from non-Suns fans...

Oh, and then there's this:

"Ulis and (Anthony) Davis, the former national player of the year and No. 1 overall draft pick, are the only players in league history to earn player of the year and defensive player of the year in the same season."

Yep, Ulis doesn't have "a lot of upside"...ok...

Oh, and one more thing...you know Joe Johnson was a 7-time All-Star, right??

I'll just respond by saying you have a much more inflated view of the talent level of this team than I do. You obviously think the roster is loaded future stars. I don't really see anything special, and really nobody who I think will be more than an adequate starter or a rotational player. Booker, I think may be solid, but again, a third or fourth option on a contending team.

No, I don't, actually. I honestly have no idea how these guys will turn out. My point is you are speculating about things you can't possibly know. Like I said. Did you think IT was going to be an All-Star?? Was he a "3rd or 4th option" on a contender?? He was, at the lowest, the 2nd option on a contender.

Then you compare Booker to a 7-time All-Star, yet then say he won't be anything more than a "3rd or 4th option" on a contender. Hate to break it to you, but Joe Johnson was a lot more than an 'adequate starter'. But hey, if you want to call Booker an 'adequate starter' on his way to 7 All-Star games, then by all means, call him that. I'd be perfectly fine with Booker having a career like Johnson. Maybe you just don't know what 'adequate' means, or the difference between 1st/2nd vs 3rd/4th. IDK, but I DO know Johnson was a lot more than that.

But please, do tell, what makes a young NBA player 'adequate' vs having 'a lot of upside'?? Which Drafted prospects from this draft have 'a lot of upside', and why don't Bender or Chriss have it? What metrics are you using to make this determination?? What about Booker's game do you not like that makes you think he'll only be 'adequate'?? How about Warren?? Basically, what's the difference between a young NBA player with 'a lot of upside' vs one without 'a lot of upside'?? And what credentials do you have to make that determination??

Like I said. Please, post what you did about Booker on the General Board and see what kind of response you get.

Sorry, BW, did that cross some imaginary acceptable post word limit?? If there is one, I'm not aware of it.

Remind me again what contending team Joe Johnson was ever more than a 3rd/4th option for.

[Zelaznyrules]

Am I wrong or are we still in July? We're months away from the start of the season, we have no idea what this team will look like come opening day. Personally I'd prefer to go with what we have. That way we can afford to give minutes to Bender and Chriss that they probably wouldn't get if winning was the number one priority. But that's me and his short history suggests that's probably not Ryan. And Sarver's history suggests he's not likely to wait all that patiently either. Maybe the TV money will calm him for an extra year of two but I'm not counting on it till I see it. I won't be at all surprised to see us trade a few players and maybe even some picks for a power forward that's NBA ready.

[NTB]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/TonyWarrenJr/status/754736910828965888[/tweet]

https://www.instagram.com/p/BH-MeWjjPY4xoyz3moFC_u-6NCUmTcvYsRTphI0/

[NTB]

Can we somehow gather all Bender articles guys? I think there were at least 5 articles from different analysts. But I don't want to check all these pages. Because I want to show people those articles whenever they think Bender is a bust. Not just in this forum, wherever I see someone with that thinking.

[NavLDO]

Everyone has different opinions on the team and the players.

Let that be the case.

If everyone has the same opinion might as well just let one poster post his or her opinion and everyone just And 1 it or quote it with a reply "I agree".


I would HATE to be on a forum where everyone has the same opinion.

I agree, 1UPZ, but it's not like Mr. Pong here is even being rational, or making sense, even, with his assessments/comparisons. For as much as Frank and I, or saint and I, differ on a lot of topics, at least what they say has merit 95% of the time, and backs up their statements with at least some rationale.

But when one calls Joe Johnson nothing more than an 'adequate starter' and the '3rd or 4th option' on a contender, then sorry, that rather invalidates his post...it doesn't even make sense??

But then, to call our roster a 'bad roster', with none of our players having any more potential than to be 'adequate starters'?? It's fine to have an opinion, but to basically rule out 10 players on our roster (possibly 8, I suppose) that are 25 or younger--Knight, Goodwin, Ulis, Booker, Jenkins, Warren, Bender, Chriss, Williams, and Len--from becoming anything more than just 'adequate starters' is quite the bold statement, especially when essentially 4 of them have no NBA experience whatsoever, I think it's fair to rebut and ask some questions. Just the same if someone stated that we definitely have 10 All-Star-potential players on our roster.

I think what Miyagi posted was a fair response...he listed about 10 or so All-Stars that had less than stellar 1st 3yrs in the NBA. And when asked to explain, he just spouts the same junk "I don't feel...blah, blah, blah" and then compares Booker to a 7-time All-Star an calls him an 'adequate starter' and '3rd/4th option on a contender'.

Sorry, 1UPZ, but if you are going to come in here with that bold of a negative statement on a team's forum, you better believe he's going to be challenged, and then he doesn't even respond with any reasoning, just 'how he feels'...ok, well, "I feel" Mr. Pong is clueless and is spouting a bunch of crap that he knows nothing about, because he has yet to further explain his reasoning. Something along the lines of "well Booker tends to [insert trait here],and if he doesn't fix that, he'll never progress" or "Warren is very weak defensively because he doesn't [insert reason here], and if he doesn't fix that, he'll be nothing more than..."

But no, all he comes back with is:

"Remind me again what contending team Joe Johnson was ever more than a 3rd/4th option for."

Great explanation! Way to defend that opinion...

[saintEscaton]

Joe Johnson was a seven-time all-star and was 1st option on the Hawks for many years. I'd love to see Booker at that level. Booker's second season will be indicative of his star potential.

Also, there was this 18 year old guy who for his rookie season averaged 7.6 points .417 shooting 1.9 rebounds 1.3 assists .7 steals 1.6 turnovers over 15.5 minutes per game. Nothing special. Next season he was an all-star. Chriss and Bender haven't even had a chance to play an NBA game and you have christened them as lifetime rotation players. You can't make snap judgements dude. Joe Johnson had three years under his belt before he really took off. BTW Kobe was that player I mentioned and he was drafted 13th. By your judge of player talent Kobe would been less than an average starter.

You really going to try and use Kobe as an example? It was obvious Kobe was going to be fhujknmdfhbjdksnmgasjldfknabhlsjfn God I can't even finish my sarcastic response because it's so asinine....

Some former Suns to consider who were late bloomers:

Nash's numbers in his first 4 seasons: 21.7 minutes 43.8% FG 7.2 points 3.8 assists 1.9 rebounds 1.5 turnovers

Goran "I wish he was here!" Dragic after 3 seasons: 16.6 minutes 43.4% FG 6.8 points 2.7 assists 2.0 rebounds 1.5 turnovers

Marcin "Grown Ass Man, Best Suns Center" Gortat after 3 seasons: 12.8 minutes 54.5% FG 3.7 points 4.3 rebounds .8 blocks

From around the league:

Jimmy Butler after 3 seasons: 26.6 minutes 42.5% FG 8.9 points 1.6 assists 3.7 rebounds 1.1 steals .9 turnovers

Jeff "Better than our guards" Teague after 3 seasons: 18.7 minutes 45.1% FG 6.9 points 2.8 assists 1.6 rebounds 1.2 turnovers

Paul "We should trade for him now!" Millsap after 3 seasons: 22.8 minutes 52.3 FG% 9.4 points 6.4 rebounds .9 blocks

Now, let's look at our "busts":

Alex "Should've had Noel" Len after 3 seasons: 19.6 minutes 45.1% FG 6.5 points 6.1 rebounds 1.0 block

Archie "Miyagi's" Goodwin after 3 seasons: 14.5 minutes 41.9% FG 6.2 points 1.2 assists 2.0 rebounds 1.3 turnovers

EDIT: Realized everyone but Nash was 3 seasons so here are Nash's numbers after 3: 20.0 minutes 42.5% FG 6.7 points 3.4 assists 1.9 rebounds 1.3 turnovers

Bust, Bust, Bust...'we could've had Gobert!!!'

Gobert--198 FGs - 182, or 92% made at the rim. 14, or 7% made from 3-10ft

A. Len--264 FGs - 158, or 60% made at the rim. 42, or 16% made 16ft-3PT line

Gobert--60 starts / 61 Total gms / 32 MPG - 20 Dbl-Dbls

A. Len--46 starts / 78 Total gms / 23 MPG - 19 Dbl-Dbls

Gobert--Per36--10.4Pts / 12.4 TRB, FT%--.569

A. Len--Per36--13.9Pts /11.7 TRB, FT%--.728

Point being, is Gobert is darn good at what he does, but he hasn't been asked to stretch his range like Alex, so Gobert blows Alex away in FG%s, DRtg/ORtg, etc., but they are two completely different players, and I have no doubt that Len could put up equal Blks and[b] comparable DRtg/ORtg if he was only asked to do what is asked of Gobert...well, because he has earlier in his career[/b].

But it's only been 3 years, and he has over 800 less minutes than Gobert, so he's behind him in both age and experience; we'll learn a lot this season, about Len, and if he doesn't improve, well, then I guess we have no better than a 'marginal starter', but I honestly believe, if he stays healthy this season, he'll progress.

Nope this is patently false. Even when Len had his best stretch in January of 2014-2015, when you adjust for pace (Jazz are one of the slowest teams in the league per 100 possesions, Gobert had the clear edge in blocks,assists/rebounding and committed almost half the number of personal fouls Len did, he is a true anchor because he can stay home doesn't bite on everything and can alter shots even when he comes up empty. For that season Gobert absolutely destroys Len in DBPM, RPM and DFG% at the rim, where he was the league's best

[NavLDO]

Spoiler:

I'll just respond by saying you have a much more inflated view of the talent level of this team than I do. You obviously think the roster is loaded future stars. I don't really see anything special, and really nobody who I think will be more than an adequate starter or a rotational player. Booker, I think may be solid, but again, a third or fourth option on a contending team.

No, I don't, actually. I honestly have no idea how these guys will turn out. My point is you are speculating about things you can't possibly know. Like I said. Did you think IT was going to be an All-Star?? Was he a "3rd or 4th option" on a contender?? He was, at the lowest, the 2nd option on a contender.

Then you compare Booker to a 7-time All-Star, yet then say he won't be anything more than a "3rd or 4th option" on a contender. Hate to break it to you, but Joe Johnson was a lot more than an 'adequate starter'. But hey, if you want to call Booker an 'adequate starter' on his way to 7 All-Star games, then by all means, call him that. I'd be perfectly fine with Booker having a career like Johnson. Maybe you just don't know what 'adequate' means, or the difference between 1st/2nd vs 3rd/4th. IDK, but I DO know Johnson was a lot more than that.

But please, do tell, what makes a young NBA player 'adequate' vs having 'a lot of upside'?? Which Drafted prospects from this draft have 'a lot of upside', and why don't Bender or Chriss have it? What metrics are you using to make this determination?? What about Booker's game do you not like that makes you think he'll only be 'adequate'?? How about Warren?? Basically, what's the difference between a young NBA player with 'a lot of upside' vs one without 'a lot of upside'?? And what credentials do you have to make that determination??

Like I said. Please, post what you did about Booker on the General Board and see what kind of response you get.

Sorry, BW, did that cross some imaginary acceptable post word limit?? If there is one, I'm not aware of it.

Remind me again what contending team Joe Johnson was ever more than a 3rd/4th option for.

'04-'05 Suns--2nd or 3rd option, but as he shot 48% from 3, I think that's a fair assessment.

'08-'09 Hawks--Def 1st/2nd Option for a 47-35 team.

'09-'10 Hawks--Def 1st/2nd Option for 53-29 team.

'10-'11 Hawks--Def 1st/2nd Option for 44-38 team.

'13-'14 Nets--Def 1st/2nd Option for 44-38 team.

All three of those ATL teams won a playoff series, and he scored more than anyone else on those teams. As did the Nets.

Next question?? Or are you going to answer any of mine, since I did the courtesy of answering yours.

[Joe Pong]

No, I don't, actually. I honestly have no idea how these guys will turn out. My point is you are speculating about things you can't possibly know. Like I said. Did you think IT was going to be an All-Star?? Was he a "3rd or 4th option" on a contender?? He was, at the lowest, the 2nd option on a contender.

Then you compare Booker to a 7-time All-Star, yet then say he won't be anything more than a "3rd or 4th option" on a contender. Hate to break it to you, but Joe Johnson was a lot more than an 'adequate starter'. But hey, if you want to call Booker an 'adequate starter' on his way to 7 All-Star games, then by all means, call him that. I'd be perfectly fine with Booker having a career like Johnson. Maybe you just don't know what 'adequate' means, or the difference between 1st/2nd vs 3rd/4th. IDK, but I DO know Johnson was a lot more than that.

But please, do tell, what makes a young NBA player 'adequate' vs having 'a lot of upside'?? Which Drafted prospects from this draft have 'a lot of upside', and why don't Bender or Chriss have it? What metrics are you using to make this determination?? What about Booker's game do you not like that makes you think he'll only be 'adequate'?? How about Warren?? Basically, what's the difference between a young NBA player with 'a lot of upside' vs one without 'a lot of upside'?? And what credentials do you have to make that determination??

Like I said. Please, post what you did about Booker on the General Board and see what kind of response you get.

Sorry, BW, did that cross some imaginary acceptable post word limit?? If there is one, I'm not aware of it.

Remind me again what contending team Joe Johnson was ever more than a 3rd/4th option for.

'04-'05 Suns--2nd or 3rd option, but as he shot 48% from 3, I think that's a fair assessment.

'08-'09 Hawks--Def 1st/2nd Option for a 47-35 team.

'09-'10 Hawks--Def 1st/2nd Option for 53-29 team.

'10-'11 Hawks--Def 1st/2nd Option for 44-38 team.

'13-'14 Nets--Def 1st/2nd Option for 44-38 team.

All three of those ATL teams won a playoff series, and he scored more than anyone else on those teams. As did the Nets.

Next question?? Or are you going to answer any of mine, since I did the courtesy of answering yours.

Sorry, but those Hawks and Nets teams were never contenders.

[NavLDO]

Best Homer ?

take your pick. You guys just have such a hard time with alternative views, especially if the 'pessimism meter' is equal to your 'optimism meter'. Then its a full on dog pile, biting, scratching, and kicking optional. Troll ? really ? Hardly. So what am I then ? A cranky old guy who sits on a porch rather than under a bridge ? hahaha

I hope these kids pan out eventually... and sooner than later. What I find disturbing is the lackluster attempt to better this team via free agency or trade. I do hold confidence in McMully's penchant for roster shuffling and am conceding the route of a patient approach to get through this wacky spending spree. But you don't build half a team then quit by touting the future. We have a good core and some possible stars in the making... However, the sun is setting on Bleds time here, has all but set on Chandler, Tucker, Duds, and Barbs.... it just seems like more should/could be done for this season. And yeah, that would mean signing some old guy who can actually play PF, or trading for a up and comer. (see, even I have hope, though it might not fit into the youther agenda)

(go easy on this one Nav... you have already bombed away your load for the weekend)

LOL...but Frank, the bolded above is the difference. Alternative views are fine; spouting nonsense is not, and you don't spout nonsense, just the alternative views AND back them up with reasoning that makes sense, even if we don't agree.

[sunsbum]

In other breaking news, frank lee sticks up for suns forum troll. Im just as shocked as you are Ron.

[NavLDO]

Remind me again what contending team Joe Johnson was ever more than a 3rd/4th option for.

'04-'05 Suns--2nd or 3rd option, but as he shot 48% from 3, I think that's a fair assessment.

'08-'09 Hawks--Def 1st/2nd Option for a 47-35 team.

'09-'10 Hawks--Def 1st/2nd Option for 53-29 team.

'10-'11 Hawks--Def 1st/2nd Option for 44-38 team.

'13-'14 Nets--Def 1st/2nd Option for 44-38 team.

All three of those ATL teams won a playoff series, and he scored more than anyone else on those teams. As did the Nets.

Next question?? Or are you going to answer any of mine, since I did the courtesy of answering yours.

Sorry, but those Hawks and Nets teams were never contenders.

So, winning a playoff series is not a contender? OK, then, you just keep on digging there, Pong, and avoid answering questions or actually defending your argument with anything other than your 'feeling' or 'opinion'...

So, what's a contender...is that only a team that makes it to the finals??? So, Johnson went to 7 All-Star games, was the #1 or #2 option on 4 teams that won a playoff series, and so that's your ceiling? What about the '04-'05 Suns?? Was he the absolute 3rd or lower option on that team?

[Joe Pong]

'04-'05 Suns--2nd or 3rd option, but as he shot 48% from 3, I think that's a fair assessment.

'08-'09 Hawks--Def 1st/2nd Option for a 47-35 team.

'09-'10 Hawks--Def 1st/2nd Option for 53-29 team.

'10-'11 Hawks--Def 1st/2nd Option for 44-38 team.

'13-'14 Nets--Def 1st/2nd Option for 44-38 team.

All three of those ATL teams won a playoff series, and he scored more than anyone else on those teams. As did the Nets.

Next question?? Or are you going to answer any of mine, since I did the courtesy of answering yours.

Sorry, but those Hawks and Nets teams were never contenders.

So, winning a playoff series is not a contender? OK, then, you just keep on digging there, Pong, and avoid answering questions or actually defending your argument with anything other than your 'feeling' or 'opinion'...

So, what's a contender...is that only a team that makes it to the finals??? So, Johnson went to 7 All-Star games, was the #1 or #2 option on 4 teams that won a playoff series, and so that's your ceiling? What about the '04-'05 Suns?? Was he the absolute 3rd or lower option on that team?

A contender is a team that has a chance to win a championship.

As for the 04-05 Suns, I'd say Johnson was probably the 4th best player on the team. If he had been the best player, if there was no Amare, Marion, or Nash, that team wouldn't have been very good. Which is exactly my point.

[NavLDO]

You really going to try and use Kobe as an example? It was obvious Kobe was going to be fhujknmdfhbjdksnmgasjldfknabhlsjfn God I can't even finish my sarcastic response because it's so asinine....

Some former Suns to consider who were late bloomers:

Nash's numbers in his first 4 seasons: 21.7 minutes 43.8% FG 7.2 points 3.8 assists 1.9 rebounds 1.5 turnovers

Goran "I wish he was here!" Dragic after 3 seasons: 16.6 minutes 43.4% FG 6.8 points 2.7 assists 2.0 rebounds 1.5 turnovers

Marcin "Grown Ass Man, Best Suns Center" Gortat after 3 seasons: 12.8 minutes 54.5% FG 3.7 points 4.3 rebounds .8 blocks

From around the league:

Jimmy Butler after 3 seasons: 26.6 minutes 42.5% FG 8.9 points 1.6 assists 3.7 rebounds 1.1 steals .9 turnovers

Jeff "Better than our guards" Teague after 3 seasons: 18.7 minutes 45.1% FG 6.9 points 2.8 assists 1.6 rebounds 1.2 turnovers

Paul "We should trade for him now!" Millsap after 3 seasons: 22.8 minutes 52.3 FG% 9.4 points 6.4 rebounds .9 blocks

Now, let's look at our "busts":

Alex "Should've had Noel" Len after 3 seasons: 19.6 minutes 45.1% FG 6.5 points 6.1 rebounds 1.0 block

Archie "Miyagi's" Goodwin after 3 seasons: 14.5 minutes 41.9% FG 6.2 points 1.2 assists 2.0 rebounds 1.3 turnovers

EDIT: Realized everyone but Nash was 3 seasons so here are Nash's numbers after 3: 20.0 minutes 42.5% FG 6.7 points 3.4 assists 1.9 rebounds 1.3 turnovers

Bust, Bust, Bust...'we could've had Gobert!!!'

Gobert--198 FGs - 182, or 92% made at the rim. 14, or 7% made from 3-10ft

A. Len--264 FGs - 158, or 60% made at the rim. 42, or 16% made 16ft-3PT line

Gobert--60 starts / 61 Total gms / 32 MPG - 20 Dbl-Dbls

A. Len--46 starts / 78 Total gms / 23 MPG - 19 Dbl-Dbls

Gobert--Per36--10.4Pts / 12.4 TRB, FT%--.569

A. Len--Per36--13.9Pts /11.7 TRB, FT%--.728

Point being, is Gobert is darn good at what he does, but he hasn't been asked to stretch his range like Alex, so Gobert blows Alex away in FG%s, DRtg/ORtg, etc., but they are two completely different players, and I have no doubt that Len could put up equal Blks and comparable DRtg/ORtg if he was only asked to do what is asked of Gobert...well, because he has earlier in his career.

But it's only been 3 years, and he has over 800 less minutes than Gobert, so he's behind him in both age and experience; we'll learn a lot this season, about Len, and if he doesn't improve, well, then I guess we have no better than a 'marginal starter', but I honestly believe, if he stays healthy this season, he'll progress.

Nav, I think you've proven a point. A point that you like Len more than Gobert. I doubt any team would take Len over Gobert and I doubt it would be close. I hope to see drastic improvements from Len as his shooting was awful (and yes, that could probably has to do with playing more away from the basket, but it was god awful at times and he wasn't particularly good around the rim). I attribute it more to not playing with Bledsoe. His shooting was better early in the season, and he was often money from right around the free throw line. His rebounding drastically improved throughout the year, and I'm guessing he learned a thing or two from Chandler.

Gobert isn't their for his offense. He's there for his rim protection and defense and is already among the best at that in the league.

No, BW, that's not what I said at all. I said they are two different players. And I admitted he needs to show something this season, as well. So please point to where I said "A point that you like Len more than Gobert." So, instead of trying to read into what I'm saying, why not just take what I said at face value. My point was all the whining last year that went on, on this board, about Len without looking at any of the surrounding 'context'.

And saying that any team wouldn't take Len over Gobert??? Are you in the heads of 30 GMs, or are you guessing at that, as well? (Rhetorical--we know the answer).