2018 Free Agency and Trade Discussion continued

[Mischa]

The Bulls are like the Pistons in that they're going to be locked into what they've got, which is a long way from contention. That's if Lauri and Carter meet expectations, which is far from a done deal. Like Detroit, their ceiling would seem to be a playoff team. The one caveat is if one or both of those guys mentioned REALLY exceed expectations and become a franchise type player. I'm not betting on that happening. Good? Sure. Playoff team starting caliber? I'll buy that. Star you build a contender around? Nope.

[jredsaz]

Some of you have mentioned that our summer league team seemed to have trouble getting Ayton the ball. And I agree.

The problem is that 2 of our 3 probable point guards (Okobo and Shaq) were a big part of this problem. Many of their passes were picked off.

The other BIGGER problem is that our probable starting point guard (Brandon Knight) has a HUGE weakness throwing lobs, and making passes in traffic. I mean...it's almost comically bad. Knight only seems capable of making a basic chest pass when the coast is clear.

So again, I bring up the fact that we let Payton and Ulis go. Payton would have been cheap and was an excellent passer. Ulis played very well when he was not injured and was a great floor general.

I HATE HATE HATE the fact that we let two cheap point guards go who really have as much potential as anyone. A Knight/Payton competition for the starting spot would have been great with the loser competing against Ulis for backup duty.

Let's not forget that the PG we cut (Ulis) beat out our new starting PG (Knight) for backup duty FAIR and SQUARE in his ROOKIE year.

And don't tell me about how Shaq has looked great in summer league and that Okobo has also had his moments. BECUASE... Remember when Ulis DOMINATED summer league?????

We really REALLY **** up on our PG decisions.

You’re letting Ayton off the hook. It’s true some of the passes (particularly when Ayton was on the move) were very poor, and these things are clearly not a strength yet for guys like Shaq and Okobo (though my less than perfect memory seems to recall guys like Jackson and Reed committing a lot of errant post entries as well). But the vast majority of the failed post entry passes were due to Ayton’s inability/unwillingness to hold his defender off and hold his position.

Ayton needs a lot of work. Doesnt move deliberately on the court. Hard to get the ball to a guy who doesnt know where to go on the court.

[bwgood77]

The Bulls are like the Pistons in that they're going to be locked into what they've got, which is a long way from contention. That's if Lauri and Carter meet expectations, which is far from a done deal. Like Detroit, their ceiling would seem to be a playoff team. The one caveat is if one or both of those guys mentioned REALLY exceed expectations and become a franchise type player. I'm not betting on that happening. Good? Sure. Playoff team starting caliber? I'll buy that. Star you build a contender around? Nope.

I don't know. Markkanen was one of the best rookies and broke some 3 pt records for his age...he could be similar to Dirk and Carter is the most solid fundamentally sound big without many weaknesses that came out in this draft...maybe not with the upside, but a very high floor and a solid upside....he defends, hits the 3, blocks shots, does everything.

Lavine before getting injured was playing very well...his 3rd year he had efficiency #s similar to Booker and a better ast/to ratio.

Portis is decent..

Dunn looked much better.

I think they could be a team that makes a jump into the playoff race in the east. They were playing very very well at times before they tried to tank and if Lavine gets back to where he was pre injury and keeps developing and with the addition of Carter, I think they can be a pretty good team, especially if Dunn becomes that tough defensive solid PG people were hoping for.

I don't really think they need to add Parker...I wouldn't but I like everything else they have going on quite a bit.

[TeamTragic]

If these guys (Len, Ulis, IT, etc) were smart, they would all head east, sign a 1 year deal, feast on the weaker eastern players, and then sign a big deal next summer.

Ulis would rather fight people in an elevator. Everyone wonders why we didn't give him a contract.

[jredsaz]

The Bulls are like the Pistons in that they're going to be locked into what they've got, which is a long way from contention. That's if Lauri and Carter meet expectations, which is far from a done deal. Like Detroit, their ceiling would seem to be a playoff team. The one caveat is if one or both of those guys mentioned REALLY exceed expectations and become a franchise type player. I'm not betting on that happening. Good? Sure. Playoff team starting caliber? I'll buy that. Star you build a contender around? Nope.

I don't know. Markkanen was one of the best rookies and broke some 3 pt records for his age...he could be similar to Dirk and Carter is the most solid fundamentally sound big without many weaknesses that came out in this draft...maybe not with the upside, but a very high floor and a solid upside....he defends, hits the 3, blocks shots, does everything.

Lavine before getting injured was playing very well...his 3rd year he had efficiency #s similar to Booker and a better ast/to ratio.

Portis is decent..

Dunn looked much better.

I think they could be a team that makes a jump into the playoff race in the east. They were playing very very well at times before they tried to tank and if Lavine gets back to where he was pre injury and keeps developing and with the addition of Carter, I think they can be a pretty good team, especially if Dunn becomes that tough defensive solid PG people were hoping for.

I don't really think they need to add Parker...I wouldn't but I like everything else they have going on quite a bit.

Adding Parker they have a lot of young talent. As much as anyone in the league. They dont have a single signature face but a guy like Parker has that potential - even if its slim he gets there. Interesting to see what the offer is.

[Mischa]

Coming out of HS, what made Parker special is that he was so multi-dimensional. You don't really see that as much anymore and then add in the impact of the injuries (he was never a world beating athlete to begin with) and he's a nice player but probably not much more. That’s where I’m at right now.

[King4Day]

Glad to hear that it sounds like the One & done won't begin until 2022. That means the Heat pick isn't as valuable as it would have been. Almost makes you wonder if McD knew this before making it expendable.

[TeamTragic]

Glad to hear that it sounds like the One & done won't begin until 2022. That means the Heat pick isn't as valuable as it would have been. Almost makes you wonder if McD knew this before making it expendable.

How about that trade for Bridges?

[LukasBMW]

Glad to hear that it sounds like the One & done won't begin until 2022. That means the Heat pick isn't as valuable as it would have been. Almost makes you wonder if McD knew this before making it expendable.

How about that trade for Bridges?

Still wayyyy to early to tell.

And I'm still on the "we should have used #16 and Miami 2021 to get us a legit 4 and legit 1 via trade" boat.

I still think we could be going into this season with:

Kemba/Knight/Ulis
Booker/Daniels
TJ/JJ
Love/Bender
Ayton/Chandler/Chriss

I like that lineup better. We'd actually make some noise.

[bwgood77]

Glad to hear that it sounds like the One & done won't begin until 2022. That means the Heat pick isn't as valuable as it would have been. Almost makes you wonder if McD knew this before making it expendable.

He did say when posed the question of the rule changing something like "That's not the information we have heard."

It makes it better but it still could be a #1 or near top pick being that it is unprotectected with a franchise changer there so I'd never trade unprotected picks.

I love Bridges, but I still would never trade those.

It's so weird we have Jackson and Warren and then we trade an asset to take Bridges...and I think "well, I love Bridges but we are really loaded on the wing so it seems a weird guy to give up that asset for even though he is the more complete player than either", and then we use all our cap space on another one.

Stuff never seems like there was a plan at the very beginning on what you wanted to do. No doubt there are knee jerk plans at certain points, but it's odd.

I can also say I like Ariza and I think his presence will help the team.....and I am glad that they did a one year contract to retain cap space...I was afraid they would blow it on a long term deal...so that was nice.

It will be interesting to see how playing time works out or if someone gets traded.

[BobbieL]

I caught the last few minutes of a segment with Gambo and he again mentioned Chandler. He mentioned that Chandler as a mentor was overblown. Again Gambia opinion. Mentioned willians or Cooley as options


Gambo also said he thinks they will clear or try to clear two roster spots. Chandler and Daniels perhaps?

I think Shaq and Reed are worth a spot.

Peters and King on two ways

[DirtyDez]

I caught the last few minutes of a segment with Gambo and he again mentioned Chandler. He mentioned that Chandler as a mentor was overblown. Again Gambia opinion. Mentioned willians or Cooley as options


Gambo also said he thinks they will clear or try to clear two roster spots. Chandler and Daniels perhaps?

I think Shaq and Reed are worth a spot.

Peters and King on two ways

Speaking of Gambo did anyone hear Bruce Jacobs back hosting with Vinny today? That was a blast from the past.

[TOO]

Glad to hear that it sounds like the One & done won't begin until 2022. That means the Heat pick isn't as valuable as it would have been. Almost makes you wonder if McD knew this before making it expendable.

How about that trade for Bridges?

Still wayyyy to early to tell.

And I'm still on the "we should have used #16 and Miami 2021 to get us a legit 4 and legit 1 via trade" boat.

I still think we could be going into this season with:

Kemba/Knight/Ulis
Booker/Daniels
TJ/JJ
Love/Bender
Ayton/Chandler/Chriss

I like that lineup better. We'd actually make some noise.

That team is TERRIBLE defensively, and there is only so many shots to go around. Everyone on that team except TJ has to have the ball to be effective. Hate it.

[bwgood77]

I caught the last few minutes of a segment with Gambo and he again mentioned Chandler. He mentioned that Chandler as a mentor was overblown. Again Gambia opinion. Mentioned willians or Cooley as options


Gambo also said he thinks they will clear or try to clear two roster spots. Chandler and Daniels perhaps?

I think Shaq and Reed are worth a spot.

Peters and King on two ways

Speaking of Gambo did anyone hear Bruce Jacobs back hosting with Vinny today? That was a blast from the past.

Bruce Jacobs couldn't handle my arguments with him on twitter a while back and blocked me. He's quite a character. I'd rather listen to him than Gambo though.

[PhxLax]

Some of you have mentioned that our summer league team seemed to have trouble getting Ayton the ball. And I agree.

The problem is that 2 of our 3 probable point guards (Okobo and Shaq) were a big part of this problem. Many of their passes were picked off.

The other BIGGER problem is that our probable starting point guard (Brandon Knight) has a HUGE weakness throwing lobs, and making passes in traffic. I mean...it's almost comically bad. Knight only seems capable of making a basic chest pass when the coast is clear.

So again, I bring up the fact that we let Payton and Ulis go. Payton would have been cheap and was an excellent passer. Ulis played very well when he was not injured and was a great floor general.

I HATE HATE HATE the fact that we let two cheap point guards go who really have as much potential as anyone. A Knight/Payton competition for the starting spot would have been great with the loser competing against Ulis for backup duty.

Let's not forget that the PG we cut (Ulis) beat out our new starting PG (Knight) for backup duty FAIR and SQUARE in his ROOKIE year.

And don't tell me about how Shaq has looked great in summer league and that Okobo has also had his moments. BECUASE... Remember when Ulis DOMINATED summer league?????

We really REALLY **** up on our PG decisions.

THANK YOU. AMEN.

I'm kinda sick of people defending this whole Ariza signing and actually drinking the "he's a PF" kool-aid and how Knight-Okobo is a decent rotation.

It's not. It's terrible. Many if not ALL Knight conversations here just 24 months ago was about how he is awful, can't wait for buyout, blah blah. Then last year everybody's like he's hurt, we'll give him a pass, and this year everybody is like -- awesome! he's the starting pg. Love it.

Suns made a HUGE mistake signing another SF when they already have 3! Warren-Jackson-Bridges. Hmm, that's kinda like signing Isaiah Thomas to play with Bledsoe and Dragic. LoL!!!

They just had to strike early and get a PG... And don't give me this hogwash about how next year cap space blah blah blah.. And next year so many superstar pg's are free agents blah blah blah.

Face it: This Ariza wingman masked as a bigman is going to be a complete and utter failure and the sun's messed up big time by not addressing the point guard situation early.

Even worse trying to come up with a defense in arguing what I just said is quite shameful and shows how fans are totally inept and disillusioned.

I'll keep this going until Suns actually address the two positions the general manager promised he would address before the offseason. He specifically said they need to upgrade and have a new:

-PF
-PG

So far, 15 million dollars and 3 draft picks later, they've manage to address none of them and no don't say least they drafted Okobo.

Fail.

[DirtyDez]

I caught the last few minutes of a segment with Gambo and he again mentioned Chandler. He mentioned that Chandler as a mentor was overblown. Again Gambia opinion. Mentioned willians or Cooley as options


Gambo also said he thinks they will clear or try to clear two roster spots. Chandler and Daniels perhaps?

I think Shaq and Reed are worth a spot.

Peters and King on two ways

Speaking of Gambo did anyone hear Bruce Jacobs back hosting with Vinny today? That was a blast from the past.

Bruce Jacobs couldn't handle my arguments with him on twitter a while back and blocked me. He's quite a character. I'd rather listen to him than Gambo though.

I disagree with pretty much all of Bruce’s opinions but he’s still a great listen. That’s the sign of good radio guy.

He was actually talking crap about Gambo on the air and Gambo came in and they went at it.

Around the 36 min mark if you care...

https://16573.mc.tritondigital.com/OMNY_BICKLEYMAROTTA_PODCAST_P/media-session/187285d3-b670-4c60-b476-bf3ceb36edf9/d/clips/61af0f78-644a-4500-9792-a89500ea78e5/8766ee82-9007-4388-90cc-a8d3000174a8/f6feef62-8d77-4599-a677-a91b016236cb/audio/direct/t1531431644/July_12,_2018_Hour_4.mp3?t=1531431644

[nevetsov]

Cap related question - Duds is on $9.5m this season, in his final year. If we agree to a buy out with him for say $6.5m, does that then reduce his cap hit by $3m? And if so, can we use that capspace and roster spot to bring back Alan Williams?

Could we then give Dudley a front office/ assistant coaching gig for $3m to make up the salary difference?

[Barkley6]

Some of you have mentioned that our summer league team seemed to have trouble getting Ayton the ball. And I agree.

The problem is that 2 of our 3 probable point guards (Okobo and Shaq) were a big part of this problem. Many of their passes were picked off.

The other BIGGER problem is that our probable starting point guard (Brandon Knight) has a HUGE weakness throwing lobs, and making passes in traffic. I mean...it's almost comically bad. Knight only seems capable of making a basic chest pass when the coast is clear.

So again, I bring up the fact that we let Payton and Ulis go. Payton would have been cheap and was an excellent passer. Ulis played very well when he was not injured and was a great floor general.

I HATE HATE HATE the fact that we let two cheap point guards go who really have as much potential as anyone. A Knight/Payton competition for the starting spot would have been great with the loser competing against Ulis for backup duty.

Let's not forget that the PG we cut (Ulis) beat out our new starting PG (Knight) for backup duty FAIR and SQUARE in his ROOKIE year.

And don't tell me about how Shaq has looked great in summer league and that Okobo has also had his moments. BECUASE... Remember when Ulis DOMINATED summer league?????

We really REALLY **** up on our PG decisions.

THANK YOU. AMEN.

I'm kinda sick of people defending this whole Ariza signing and actually drinking the "he's a PF" kool-aid and how Knight-Okobo is a decent rotation.

It's not. It's terrible. Many if not ALL Knight conversations here just 24 months ago was about how he is awful, can't wait for buyout, blah blah. Then last year everybody's like he's hurt, we'll give him a pass, and this year everybody is like -- awesome! he's the starting pg. Love it.

Suns made a HUGE mistake signing another SF when they already have 3! Warren-Jackson-Bridges. Hmm, that's kinda like signing Isaiah Thomas to play with Bledsoe and Dragic. LoL!!!

They just had to strike early and get a PG... And don't give me this hogwash about how next year cap space blah blah blah.. And next year so many superstar pg's are free agents blah blah blah.

Face it: This Ariza wingman masked as a bigman is going to be a complete and utter failure and the sun's messed up big time by not addressing the point guard situation early.

Even worse trying to come up with a defense in arguing what I just said is quite shameful and shows how fans are totally inept and disillusioned.

I'll keep this going until Suns actually address the two positions the general manager promised he would address before the offseason. He specifically said they need to upgrade and have a new:

-PF
-PG

So far, 15 million dollars and 3 draft picks later, they've manage to address none of them and no don't say least they drafted Okobo.

Fail.

So, I agree i'm not sold at all on Ariza as a 4. Sure in spurts thats fine, but full time? HELL NO. I think the team was hoping to see more from Bender and thinking he could maybe make a push for starting 4 minutes before the season was over. Summer league has obviously told us differently.

As to the PG situation, from what I've seen of Koko's sets in summer league, the need for a ball dominant guard is really diminished because of all the passing and movement. There were times when Bender took the ball up the court himself, and then made the first pass to initiate the offense. Yes, having some drive and kick and PnR is nice, but I really don't think that's what this offense thrives on. It's more pass and move. A PG who needs the ball a lot to be effective probably isn't the best fit in this offense, and it's also probably why Slovenia was able to find a way to allow Goran and Doncic to coexist so effectively even though they are both primary ball handlers.

[bigfoot]

Cap related question - Duds is on $9.5m this season, in his final year. If we agree to a buy out with him for say $6.5m, does that then reduce his cap hit by $3m? And if so, can we use that capspace and roster spot to bring back Alan Williams?

Could we then give Dudley a front office/ assistant coaching gig for $3m to make up the salary difference?

The easiest thing to do to gain roster space is waive Daniels. Otherwise we trade Dudley or Chandler to another team that has the cap space to absorb their contract. Problem with that is we would likely have to give up a first round pick. I can't imagine we would want to do that. Again, Sarver can more easily eat Daniels salary of $3.2M than Dudley's of $6.5M in a buyout.

Others that could be waived to make room for a veteran player (or Williams) include Shaq, Reed, and Chriss. Those decisions could be made around training camp or even partway into the season. The cost of waive them would be less than Daniels. Right now Daniels make the most sense as we have the other three wrapped up non-guaranteed or small-guaranteed contracts.

edit: also, paying Duds $3M as an assistant coach is way over pay. A lot of head coaches make around $3M. Assistants are probably in the $100K to $750K range.

[BobbieL]

Cap related question - Duds is on $9.5m this season, in his final year. If we agree to a buy out with him for say $6.5m, does that then reduce his cap hit by $3m? And if so, can we use that capspace and roster spot to bring back Alan Williams?

Could we then give Dudley a front office/ assistant coaching gig for $3m to make up the salary difference?

The easiest thing to do to gain roster space is waive Daniels. Otherwise we trade Dudley or Chandler to another team that has the cap space to absorb their contract. Problem with that is we would likely have to give up a first round pick. I can't imagine we would want to do that. Again, Sarver can more easily eat Daniels salary of $3.2M than Dudley's of $6.5M in a buyout.

Others that could be waived to make room for a veteran player (or Williams) include Shaq, Reed, and Chriss. Those decisions could be made around training camp or even partway into the season. The cost of waive them would be less than Daniels. Right now Daniels make the most sense as we have the other three wrapped up non-guaranteed or small-guaranteed contracts.

edit: also, paying Duds $3M as an assistant coach is way over pay. A lot of head coaches make around $3M. Assistants are probably in the $100K to $750K range.

In answer to the question - Dudley would still count 9.5m on the cap -- but to SArvers pocketbook - would count 3m less

I think the more likely scenario is trade Daniels and include a second rounder - like how the Suns got him in the first place. I think the Suns will be fine without a 2019 second rounder. Shaq, Reed, KIng, PEters all seem like good bench candidates. So if it takes the Suns attaching a pick - so be it

Second, I can see where Dudley is bought out for between 11 and 12m. A team might pick him up for the veteran minimum so he is not losing cash. The Suns than sign Williams to a veteran minimum

And with the roster spot from Daniels --- my money would still be on Milos Teodosic