Season Speculation, Trade Ideas & Discussion Pt. 5

[NavLDO]

I listen to the local Phoenix Sports radio often. It has been said several times already that there is concern Booker will not want to continue playing for the Suns if we don't go into win now mode as opposed to waiting for more rookies to develop.

Local radio guys need to fill segments and taking shots at the suns is easy.

Fact of the matter is Booker is about to sign a 5 year extension that will kick in after next season so they have him for 6 1/2 more years. I also believe hes the type that really embraces the 'face of the franchise' role. Hell I think dealing bledsoe and making him the clear 'guy' has boosted his game this season. He seems like more of the d wade than the chriss bosh of his generation.

It's also not like he's had multiple years of playing at a star level and carrying a bad team. Before this season he was playing well for his age but just average overall.

I do think they should move a little more win now come this summer. Not because I worry about losing booker but because timing is right from a cap space and asset consolidation stand point. But to act like that win now mode needs to happen in the next couple weeks seems a bit of an exaggeration.

I agree Booker is going to sign a 5 year deal. Here's the catch. He will have an option for the fifth year. Which means its really a four year contract. Now let's look at the two best players in the league. Lebron stayed in Cleveland 7 years before he left. Durant stayed 9 years before he left. In both situations their teams were in the playoffs and they left because they couldn't win a ring. We have Booker guaranteed for 5 more years. I can't imagine watching him for two more years on a losing team while 18-19 year-old rookies "MAYBE" establish themselves as star players.

And yes the win now mode needs to happen before the trade deadline. Why, because the next window for making a move will be this summer around draft time and we will not be in a great bargaining position with too many draft picks and not enough roster space to hold those players. Even if we stashed players in Europe and brought in a few new rookies it will be hard to trade them to get a star player. Teams want to draft their own players not trade for our rookies. After that we will be waiting for the next December 2018 and February 2019 trade window when players are typically moved. We need players that will be involved in the 2018 training camp to learn the system of whoever we sign as a coach. In addition, having better players makes it possible to lure better coaches to the Suns. What high caliber coach wants to come in with only Booker/Warren plus a bunch of scrubs and no real point guard or a rookie point guard to run his system.

I'm not saying we go and get Kemba but I am saying its high time the Suns make some positive moves. Certainly by the trade deadline.

Yes, and Kemba is likely the best option out there, but not the only option, no. I'm hoping they take that option, but if they go option 'B' and trade for a different PG that is both NBA proven, AND young enough to stick with us for 5-7 years, at least...well, ok. It's STILL better than the "hey, let's spend $20M per on Hill for the next season and a half" or "boy, I hope we can get Young or Doncic...no? We're taking BPA Kevin Knox. Um, ok awesome!" and then STILL don't have a PG other than Canaan or Ulis next season...well, that just isn't working for me.

If we go into next season with our PG of the future identified, then fine, so I'll just have to resign myself to the fact that Kemba, or FA, won't be the only options...other things can happen before September/October next year. But man, it's awful hard, as a fan, to hear that the Hornets are putting Kemba on the block, and knowing that is the critical piece we are missing, to not get excited and hope that McD gets a deal done.

[bwgood77]

It's nonsense to act like our window of keeping Devin Booker hinges on going win-now at the trade deadline. You guys act like it's right now or Booker is leaving and we're doomed for eternity. It's not. You sound like freaking Robert Sarver.

Haven't they also mentioned that the time to add the major piece is the summer of 2019? Even if Booker were to have a player option in a max deal, he would still be starting his max deal in 2019-20 right after the summer we have used the cap space on a free agent.

When Dudley and Chandler come off the books, if our cap space isn't clogged at that point, and before Booker's contract kicks in in 2019, we should have MAJOR cap space.

I think a vet PG or something should be added this summer. Even Hill wouldn't be bad because he comes off in 2019 when we'd have that enormous cap space and could really go all in.

To me our young players appear to be improving rapidly and I think if Triano is retained and he has the rest of this year and training camp they could look A LOT better next year. I expect JJ to work his ass off.

I think with just a decent PG on a one year deal could help us make a significant step next year without a big splash and then we'd have massive cap space in 2019 and could go after a big fish or make a big lopsided trade to take back more salary.

If we couldn't find such a FA or trade we could possibly keep that PG or make smaller moves.

I mean McD has been pretty clear with his plans. People know this, Booker knows this..Booker seems to love the teammates he has. They all want to win more and I think they will. They are young and will naturally get better. Adding someone 27 or 28 is someone who will likely naturally get worse since those are peak years. If we did, it would make more sense to do it when our young guys are closer to their peaks.

The wait til 2019 theory is fine but who is to says the options the Suns have in free agency that summer are any better than possible trade scenarios they have now. Dismissing trade options available now on the bases that they would limit cap flexibility in two years is poor decision making. Cap flexibility is one of many considerations. The goal is building a championship team around Booker and there are a lot of ways to go about doing that.

I think if there is a great opportunity this summer they should go for it. I just don't know that the free agent pool is as good or what trade opportunities will be there. But if a Booker extension does count against the cap in 19 it would make sense to make a move sooner. I guess there is a chance he would wait to sign a max until the summer of 19 to allow us to utilize that cap space before he signs though. Since he is all about winning and adding pieces to make big improvements, then he would know it makes sense to wait to allow this to happen. Though any agent/player may also want to do it sooner in case of injury (even though I still think we'd give him a max if he got injured).

[jcsunsfan]

Win now or Booker leaves?!? Serious? He just turned 21 not 29.......

Nobody is saying win-now means win tomorrow. It means Suns should always be looking to make aggressive move in trade and FA to improve the team around Booker.

Win now means no more BS like the #timeline. It means continually evaluating and making trades and signing FA's in order to improve the team. It takes years, assuming McD makes good FA signings and good trades, to build a winning team. If he doesn't sign players that fit on the first go-round, then you have to move them for yet different talent. It is a constant movement of players onto the team and off of the team over a long period of time all with the intent of building around your core players.

Looking at players like Kyrie Irving, Kemba Walker etc.. is exactly what McD should be doing. But to avoid this process (as many on this board advocate) because bringing in a veteran would "take away the development of our young players" is not smart basketball, and ensures a team will be bad for a long time. Suns have already been historically bad (for the Suns) for the last 5 years. It is easy for me to see them still being bad for the next 5 years if we follow the #timeline.

And make no mistake, if this franchise continues to flounder then Booker will request a trade a few years down the road.

This Booker is going to leave stuff is just nonsense. All it becomes is fearmongering that produces horrible decisions. You want to see Booker leave? Put this team in salary cap hell so you have to trade good assets to get get rid of bad ones.

This team has assets and quality young players. That is hope. Gamble all that away for high salaries and a point guard that may not fit and hope is gone.


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[Saberestar]

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[Damkac]

Win now means no more BS like the #timeline. It means continually evaluating and making trades and signing FA's in order to improve the team. It takes years, assuming McD makes good FA signings and good trades, to build a winning team. If he doesn't sign players that fit on the first go-round, then you have to move them for yet different talent. It is a constant movement of players onto the team and off of the team over a long period of time all with the intent of building around your core players.

So Suns should abandon #timeline because Booker will leave if the team won't become good soon. But if they will abandon #timeline it will take years to build a winning team anyway so Booker will still leave right?
And how would you build chemistry in the team with constant movement of players? How about having a group of young players growing and developing together from the start of their career? Are Spurs good team for so many years because they shake their roster every season?

Now let's look at the two best players in the league. Lebron stayed in Cleveland 7 years before he left. Durant stayed 9 years before he left. In both situations their teams were in the playoffs and they left because they couldn't win a ring. We have Booker guaranteed for 5 more years. I can't imagine watching him for two more years on a losing team while 18-19 year-old rookies "MAYBE" establish themselves as star players.

And yes the win now mode needs to happen before the trade deadline. Why, because the next window for making a move will be this summer around draft time and we will not be in a great bargaining position with too many draft picks and not enough roster space to hold those players. Even if we stashed players in Europe and brought in a few new rookies it will be hard to trade them to get a star player. Teams want to draft their own players not trade for our rookies. After that we will be waiting for the next December 2018 and February 2019 trade window when players are typically moved. We need players that will be involved in the 2018 training camp to learn the system of whoever we sign as a coach. In addition, having better players makes it possible to lure better coaches to the Suns. What high caliber coach wants to come in with only Booker/Warren plus a bunch of scrubs and no real point guard or a rookie point guard to run his system.

I'm not saying we go and get Kemba but I am saying its high time the Suns make some positive moves. Certainly by the trade deadline.

LeBron and Durant were stars before their 1st game in the NBA. LBJ was 1st pick and Durant was 2nd but he would also be 1st in 90% of the drafts. The pressure for them to win at least one championship was enormous. Booker was 13th and only people expecting a championship from him are Suns fans. Of course he could leave Suns and go to a superteam to won a ring but you can't really compare his situation with the above 2 players.

And I absolutely disagree that Suns needs to make a move before deadline. They shouldn't do anything before they will know who they will draft.

[jredsaz]

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This is getting weird

[jredsaz]

Dinwittie hits game winner. Lakers win too. Suns sjtting in the 6th spot.

[lilfishi22]

First, it was Kyrie wasn't good enough; the current leading scoring PG. Now it's Kemba, the current 6th leading scoring PG isn't good for the Suns. Both are 'all-star-level' talents.

Fans here are talking about getting high-scoring Guard help in here to help out Booker, and here comes along a 27-YO PG who's avg'd 22 pts/gm over the past 3 years. We also want distributors, and Kemba is avg'ing 5.8 asst/gm this season--6.4 in January.

Would I like him to be a bit stronger 3PT shooter? Yeah, but he shoots 7 att/gm. He's also known to be a hard worker, and is consistently improving.

Doesn't matter. The majority here will be correct...and 'happy', while the few of us will wrong, and unhappy, because McD will goon up this opportunity as well.

I'm not one to want to go after every FA/Trade target that becomes available; I'm really not, but I've been in favor of Kemba for months. He fits close enough to the age range, he's a great player, he'll likely attract at least one other high-level player, and we'll get him for the next year and a half for peanuts, allowing us to go after another big name target. Some thing that Dragic, or Hill, won't allow us to do, and isn't close enough to our ideal age range.

Kemba is one of the youngest proven PGs out there, the other we passed on this summer, and Lillard is not likely to come on the market. So yeah, to me, this is a fantastic opportunity to get better. Because when we miss out on Doncic and/or Young, or they disappoint after we do draft them, like JJ has (no, JJ hasn't, but shhhh, don't tell the forever tanker, immediate-gratification-types that...)

Seriously. For all of you wanting Young or Doncic, or whoever else other draft prospect you are salivating over, that you are afraid that Kemba will ruin your chances of getting??? Well, be prepared for the fact that there's a good chance that player won't be good in his first 20-30 games either, which, in turn, will continue to likely delay JJ's, Bender, and Chriss' development further. Be careful what you wish for...because JJ didn't come in guns-a-blazin either, as originally thought by some.

I was waiting for someone to bring up this comparison because most know I was very pro-kyrie. But there's a huge difference between Kemba and Kyrie.

1. Kyrie is 25. Kemba is already 27
2. Kyrie is a legit All-star. Kemba is a borderline all-star
3. Kyrie would've cost us a 1st in a good draft. Asking price for Kemba is probably a 1st in an even better draft.
4. Both guys will need a new deal next offseason and I'd much rather pay a younger , more experienced and better Kyrie more money than Kemba for $30m a yr.

On the surface it seems like a good comparison but it isn't really the same situation.

Umm...ok, I didn't really compare them, but, whatever. I ONLY said, they were both 'all-star-level' talents.

But hey, I'll play...

- Kemba only costs $12M per, Kyrie would've cost $19.5M per, freeing up $7M more to spend this summer...
- Kyrie's avg'ing 24.1/5/3.6 on a good team / Kemba's avg'ing 21.7 / 5.8 / 3.3 on a crap team (notice the higher asst rate)
- Lonzo Ball received more than twice as many votes than Booker in All-Star Voting this year (607k vs 268k)...guess he's a TRUE All-Star, and Booker is only a Borderline one, huh?
- to the bolded above...since when does 424 equal more than 485...that's the # of gms played by both in the NBA. Or were you referring to "playoff games with Lebron leading your team" - Yep, Kyrie's more experienced.
- Kyrie didn't get to the playoffs until LeBron came back; Kemba led his team with Al Jefferson being the best player.
- Kemba did it again in '15-'16 with Batum, Jefferson, Lee, MKG, W. Williams, Lin...you know, that star studded cast...

So don't tell me that just because Kyrie got to play with LeBron for 3 years, then was gifted from the top team in the East, to the #2 team in the East, or Vice Versa, depending how you look at, that he's SOO much better than Kemba, because I'll take the non-entitled Kemba over the 'entitled' Kyrie, even with the 2 year age difference. There are 38 players age 33+ in the NBA, 21 of which are still playing meaningful minutes for their teams. That's a minimum of 6 years for Kemba, most likely. Nash played until when? Paul is 32. Parker is still playing at age 35...Ginobili, the 'machine' is 40...of course, those are outliers, but point is, 27 is not too old for us. 30-31?? Absolutely.

But to compare the two, and act like Kyrie is SOOO much better than Kemba is horse dung. He's a better shooter; that's true. Outside of that, they are darn near equal in most other skillsets, and Kemba has a better attitude, to be frank. Not to mention, again, that Kemba has accumulated his stats on teams without superstar talent surrounding him for half his career.

But all this aside, my intention was never to compare the two in the first place, OTHER than, to show that they are both PGs, they were/are both made available for trade, they both can make our team better, and they are both 'all-star-level' talents.

Here's Kemba compared to "true All-Stars" and tell me if you see and appreciable difference, and why they deserve oh-so-much-more...

http://bkref.com/tiny/NxC20

I'll show you why...

11th Place Charlotte Wins 18 Losses 26

"First, it was Kyrie wasn't good enough; the current leading scoring PG. Now it's Kemba, the current 6th leading scoring PG isn't good for the Suns. Both are 'all-star-level' talents."

That's a comparison. You're saying these two players are comparable 'all star' talent when they're clearly not.

Both guys are short term money, it's what they'll make after this contract which is what needs to be considered since you're giving up assets with the intention of keeping them long term.

Kyrie is also a legit all-star and has been an all-NBA player. Kemba is 27 and basically a fringe all-star. It's entirely debateable whether he should even be an all-star this year. But let's not talk about all-star, let's talk about MVP candicdacy. I don't think Kyrie will win it this year but he's in the running. Kyrie is clearly on a different level to Kemba

Experience - I'm talking playoff experience, ECF experience, Finals experience, Championship experience. Clearly I'm not talking about games played. This is one of the primary reasons Kyrie is worth trading for. His experience at the very highest levels of basketball, even if it was next to Lebron is super valuable. Understanding and having a championship mindset is not something you can just acquire without being at that high level.

The Bobcats got to playoffs with Al Jefferson, who at the time, was still in his prime and was one of the best post threats in the game and legit 20/10 guy. Let's not be so quick to forget that Al Jefferson at one point his career was one of the best big men in the league and was an All-NBA player. The guy was legit in a time when slow but strong big men could still be a core part of a playoff team. The Cats weren't star studded but at least Kemba had help. Kyrie was the only guy on those Cavs teams. He was their only offensive threat until they got a young Dion Waiters who wasn't ready to contribute at a high level. And I definitely don't blame Kyrie for Lebron joining the team and 'gifting' him a contending team.

My whole point is you can't use whiffing on Kyrie example as a justification for trading for Kemba. We (and the realGM board) can debate who's the better player and therefore who's more valuable but if weren't willing to give up a 1st round pick for Kyrie, I definitely wouldn't give up our 1st round pick for Kemba.

If all it took to get Kemba was one of the Bucks/Miami picks and Monroe, then I'd definitely consider it but I wouldn't give up much more.

[lilfishi22]

Booker doesn't like losing. Therefore the longer we are bad, the more likely it is he bolts or asks for a trade when he can.

No players like losing. He can't bolt. He could ask for a trade but it's extremely unlikely any time soon.

I listen to the local Phoenix Sports radio often. It has been said several times already that there is concern Booker will not want to continue playing for the Suns if we don't go into win now mode as opposed to waiting for more rookies to develop.

It's unlikely but to ignore that possibility would be the biggest mistake our front office could make

[Frank Lee]

If you listen to phnx sports radio, you will realize all of those programs run out of relevant topics in the first hour and have to rehash, make up, and suppose their way through the remaining 2-3 hrs. This notion that book may leave is nothing more than a time filling talking point much like the assumption jawing that goes on here.

[lilfishi22]

Yeah, but that's because they've blown their money on Batum and Howard. We haven't, and can get Kemba, get a 'big prize' this off-season, then pay Kemba and Booker next season, with JJ and Bender (Assuming we would have to trade Warren, who's on a great contract, and a young player like Bender, plus maybe Miami's pick.)

I'll ask again, as I did last night. Pretend you are Boogie, and McD approaches you over the summer:

"Hey, we've got Booker, Warren, Chriss, JJ and Bender, and this rookie PG and Center...we'll figure out the depth later, but we think this PG kid is good..."

or

"Hey, we've got Kemba and Booker, so 50 pts + 10 assts, with JJ and Chriss at the Forwards...you'll be our Cornerstone at the 5, and complete our Big 3."

What's going to be more enticing to you???

Neither, I'd stay with the Pels if those are my choices.

Cool. He's gonna take a pay cut? Because I showed how that's not gonna happen, unless I'm misinterpreting how the Cap and Luxury tax works for teams.

Rondo won't be playing for them, BTW, nor Clark, or Jameer Nelson, or Cunningham. They don't fit under the Salary/Luxury Tax cap next season.

Or, he can play on the team with the better, same aged PG, better, and younger SG and SF(s)(I'm keeping Warren, since there are those that feel we'll take on contracts rather than give actual assets), and two 20-YO PFs...plus money to go get more talent, if required.(And yes, even if we take contracts, sign Kemba and Boogie, we're still better off than the Pels financially, because we can dump Chandler, BK, and Dudley by the time we need to sign Kemba and Booker, so long as it's not Batum's contract.)

So, you can be 'cute' with your answer there, and yeah, he may not choose us? But unless something drastic happens, I don't see a scenario where Boogie gets a full Max and plays for Pels.

Pelicans didn't trade for Cousins to not be able to resign him. They will do everything in their power to resign him and it's been reported that the Pels planning that max extension for him. Is it in their best interest to do that? Probably not but a team like Pels will do what they can do retain talent.

From a financial standpoint, Cousins has already lost millions by not be eligible for the super max when he was traded to the Pelicans. He'll be set to lose more if he doesn't resign with the Pels. I don't see the Suns as being a significantly better proportion from a team perspective to give up more millions to leave Pels.

[bigfoot]

Spoiler:

This is such a nonsense.

So I give examples of Durant and Lebron leaving and it is nonsense? No ... it's reality.

I say that Booker will sign a 5-year max with a player option for his fifth year and it is nonsense ... his agent would be stupid not to have a player option so Booker could increase his max money. Every star player has a player option in the last year of their contract.

I say we can't attract top coaches in our search with scrub PGs ... likely to be true since good coaches want a chance to win.

You didn't even think about it for half a second. SMH and some of the stupidity around here.

No one is questioning that Booker could leave (in 6 years!) or that we have to add some win now pieces soon, but to say that "the win now mode needs to happen before the trade deadline" is absurd.

Except as I said before it's five years, not six years, because he will have a player option in his last year. Again imagine two more years of losing while we develop these young draft picks that are supposed to help Booker get into the playoffs. Now imagine those draft picks panning out like say Alex Len, for example.

We have plenty of young assets in Chriss, Bender, Jackson, Ulis, Reed, Peters, two Miami 1st, Bucks 1st, three second round picks this year, and all our future draft picks. It would be stupid not to use them to get a star player. If we can move Monroe, draft picks, and a young player to get a legit star we should. That will make it easier to add legitimate free agents and a coach this summer too. It's not about winning this season, it's about the setup for winning next year. Drafting rookies and the inability to land quality free agents this summer will likely result in another losing season next year.

[darealjuice]

Spoiler:

So I give examples of Durant and Lebron leaving and it is nonsense? No ... it's reality.

I say that Booker will sign a 5-year max with a player option for his fifth year and it is nonsense ... his agent would be stupid not to have a player option so Booker could increase his max money. Every star player has a player option in the last year of their contract.

I say we can't attract top coaches in our search with scrub PGs ... likely to be true since good coaches want a chance to win.

You didn't even think about it for half a second. SMH and some of the stupidity around here.

No one is questioning that Booker could leave (in 6 years!) or that we have to add some win now pieces soon, but to say that "the win now mode needs to happen before the trade deadline" is absurd.

Except as I said before it's five years, not six years, because he will have a player option in his last year. Again imagine two more years of losing while we develop these young draft picks that are supposed to help Booker get into the playoffs. Now imagine those draft picks panning out like say Alex Len, for example.

We have plenty of young assets in Chriss, Bender, Jackson, Ulis, Reed, Peters, two Miami 1st, Bucks 1st, three second round picks this year, and all our future draft picks. It would be stupid not to use them to get a star player. If we can move Monroe, draft picks, and a young player to get a legit star we should. That will make it easier to add legitimate free agents and a coach this summer too. It's not about winning this season, it's about the setup for winning next year. Drafting rookies and the inability to land quality free agents this summer will likely result in another losing season next year.

Everyone agrees that we need to use these assets to get a legit star with Booker, it’s the timing that we disagree with. Some people want to do it this offseason, and some people, including you, want to do it now. Our point is that we can easily get a top 5 pick that would be very valuable to draft with or could be traded for a higher level player than Kemba, all while still having cap space, Miami’s pick, Milwaukee’s pick, and Chandler/Dudley’s soon to be expiring contracts for making other moves. We can do more with that to build a winning team for next year than we can adding Kemba now at the expense of those picks and having our pick in the late lottery.

[Mulhollanddrive]

Had a look at the contenders and where their top 3 players ranked for Win Shares:

GSW 3 Players in top 35
HOU 3 Players in top 34
BOS 3 Players in top 20
SAS 3 Players in top 45
TOR 3 Players in top 49
MIN 3 Players in top 27

That's where we need to get to with a big 3-4.

[lilfishi22]

I don't think it's make or break whether we do something or not this trade deadline that would advance our playoff chances this season or the next but I do want to get some value for Monroe. I'd use him in a trade for Kemba but I think Charlotte is looking for more (ie include a bad contract or our 1st) so I don't think that's likely. I think it'll be a shame to let him just expire because we would've given up Bledsoe for essential a late 1st rounder.

[Frank Lee]

Thats a pretty good break down DJuice

[sunsbum]

Does anyone think we could get a late first out of Monroe?

[lilfishi22]

Does anyone think we could get a late first out of Monroe?

I doubt it. If a team wants a big these days, they want either elite scoring with range or elite defense. Monroe doesn't have range and he's not much of a defender. I just don't see any team needing him enough to give up even a late 1st.

His value at this point is either comparatively average player at another position or cap space.

[jredsaz]

Does anyone think we could get a late first out of Monroe?

We could if we took back a bad contract.

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

Does anyone think we could get a late first out of Monroe?

We could if we took back a bad contract.

I'd rather have the cap space.