2024-25 Season Discussion and Speculation Part V

[Sunsdeuce]

How are those defense efficiency stats with Dunn against elite teams looking? People want to quote his defense efficiency against garbage teams so much now let’s talk about it against elite competition.

Or how about Beal efficiency on offense with him out of the lineup against elite teams.

All those arguments about how great this team is without Beal and with Dunn in the starting lineup go out the window when the competition is elite. Hence why you should never take stats in small sample size ESPECiALLY when you factor in the competition level.

That Evan kid always wants to throw Beal under the bus and appoint Dunn as the next Shawn Marion but he never gives the full picture. Stats tell the truth against quality opponents. Stars often lie against poor opponents!

This team has no future. Booker and KD aren’t the answers. You can’t rebuild around Booker. Sorry but he ain’t scaring any team, he ain’t even an All-Star. Only a fool would build around Booker when the whole league, country and fan base outside of phx even knows he ain’t an All-Star. Keeping this team together while only trading Beal, Allen, and a hand full of players isn’t going to change the trajectory of this team. And no a new coach ain’t fixing this disaster.

The bottomline is the faster some of you realize that this team needs a full overhaul which includes trading Booker, the faster this team will win again and you all can enjoy watching the Suns again.

[Ghost of Kleine]

How are those defense efficiency stats with Dunn against elite teams looking? People want to quote his defense efficiency against garbage teams so much now let’s talk about it against elite competition.

Or how about Beal efficiency on offense with him out of the lineup against elite teams.

All those arguments about how great this team is without Beal and with Dunn in the starting lineup go out the window when the competition is elite. Hence why you should never take stats in small sample size ESPECiALLY when you factor in the competition level.

That Evan kid always wants to throw Beal under the bus and appoint Dunn as the next Shawn Marion but he never gives the full picture. Stats tell the truth against quality opponents. Stars often lie against poor opponents!

This team has no future. Booker and KD aren’t the answers. You can’t rebuild around Booker. Sorry but he ain’t scaring any team, he ain’t even an All-Star. Only a fool would build around Booker when the whole league, country and fan base outside of phx even knows he ain’t an All-Star. Keeping this team together while only trading Beal, Allen, and a hand full of players isn’t going to change the trajectory of this team. And no a new coach ain’t fixing this disaster.

The bottomline is the faster some of you realize that this team needs a full overhaul which includes trading Booker, the faster this team will win again and you all can enjoy watching the Suns again.

I agree with you on the whole man about the suns needing a full rebuild and too many here trying to cling to some delusional belief that everything will miraculously fix itself and come together.

I also agree that Beal isn't really the issue here. Clearly the issue is multiple in nature from roster construction, lack of young talent, lack of high end athleticism, lack of size throughout, lack of physicality, lack of high motor play, lack of competitive tenacity.

I also agree that the whole premise of this win streak giving hope is just another typical "fools gold" scenario that those who have followed this franchise closely for multiple decades now, can identify rather quickly as par for the course buildup before the predisposed letdown or collapse they gift us with every season.

The one thing that I do disagree with is regarding Dunn struggling against a top tier contender like Boston being a clear determinate that he's somehow not going to be very good or has Marion potential. I mean obviously context matters, and in that respect, it's important to not overlook that Dunn is still only a rookie in his learning curve.


So of course any rookie will have struggles at times in their first season if being heavily relied upon not only in their first season, but against the very top tier talent of the entire league! But two things fan be true at once too. And the suns can be a truly better team with him playing in the starting lineup due to a variety of intangible factors. But success is also derived from a team operating as a whole unit, and are team just isn't it.

It might take all players operating as one cohesive unit to be consistently strong. And it would of course be a bit ridiculous to expect a singular rookie to carry an entire team/ roster successfully when still needing obvious development and acclimation to this level (league).

But yes, he can make the team definitively better in his role. But the rest is really on the other players also choosing to show up or not. And the larger sample indicates that they just don't. Too often they appear "unbothered" by anything competitive.

I think the stats are obviously accurate, but the failure comes from the lack of full team buy in defensively rather than it falling singularly on one player.

And especially not a 1st year player in his rookie season struggling occasionally against the very top tier of the league when the rest of the team just chooses to not show up at all. Heck, even Marion himself might have struggled at times in his rookie season against top tier ( in the entire league) contenders..............NO??

[Ghost of Kleine]

I think it's realistic to get Ware and a swap of their pick this year for ours this year. So we go from #31 or so to #11. Allows them to keep all of their picks in the future. They're also in line to get GSW pick this year as well.

Also they keep Jovic and J³.

I'd do that trade for their MIA 25' 1st (currently the 8th pick) as long as Ware is coming back; the value is definitely there. Although I don't think they'd actually be willing to trade Ware, for my part, IF Ware is not coming back, then that's huge, and the value isn't remotely close. So that value will have to be made up by them surrendering BOTH their own 25' 1st this year (the 8th pick) and the GS 25' 1st.

Riley and Arison don't care at all about picks because Riley and Arison would rather compete! Especially after the egg on their face from them trading Butler and now missing the playoffs. Getting KD helps them get right back into the playoffs, not only moving past that embarrassing decisional outcome but also mitigating the value they'll give up from the unprotected MIA 26' 1st that OKC now will get because Miami's 25 1st didn't/ won't convey.

Also, I'd likely take that 8th pick and flip it back to Brooklyn for the 19th, 26th, and 35th picks. Or to Orlando for the 15th, 25th, and 42nd picks. Squeeze as much talent out of this draft as possible from a KD move. Overall, though, of the two, I'd probably do the Orlando trade to specifically take:

15- Egor Demin. 6'9 PG- 6'9 Giddey/ Less creative Rubio?
25- Carter Bryant. 6'9 SF/PF- PJ Washington/ better shot-blocking Richard Jefferson.
29- Alex Condon. 6'11 PF - Isiah Hartenstein/ rich mans' Drew Eubanks.
54- Maxime Raynaud. 7'1 PF/C - Pau Gasol.
Unrestrictd two way contracts (3 allowed)

1- Vladislav Goldin (Michigan) 7'1 Ivaca Zubac.
2- John Tonje (Wisconsin) 6'6 220 lb Devin Booker OR Cedric Coward (Washington State) a 6'6 205 lb Colin Sexton with better defense/ better shooting Marcus Smart?
3- Donnie Freeman (Syracuse) a 6'10 dollar store KD/ poor mans' Chris Bosch OR David N'Guessan (K state) 6'9 Jaden Mcdaniels.




Booker/ Beal/ Dunn/ Bol Bol / Richards.
Gillespie/ Allen/ O'neale/ Raynaud/ Ighodaro.
Demin/ FA / Bryant/ Condon/ Goldin.

Well, I was looking at prospects in that range and discovered something.....

What's your opinion on Jase Richardson? Cause that is who will be our pick if we get anywhere within range I'll bet. Not sure if you knew this but Jason Richardson is his dad....the same Jason Richarson who played at Michigan State. That team won a national title.

Guess who else was on that team? I'll give you 1 guess.

There's no way Ishbia passes up a chance to draft his old teammates, a teammate he won a chip with. Hell, we might even trade up and grab Jase.

I actually like Jase for his advanced and shifty ballhandling ability and high-end athleticism. Also his explosive scoring too. However, I haven't really mentioned him because he just reminds me a whole lot of a better ballhandling Bradley Beal/ Anfernee Simons. I just see Jase as being redundant to what we already have in depth at SG. So I mainly focused on other positions. Now, I like him as a player and like his game overall. And if we end up moving Beal for betting fitting pieces, then I wouldn't mind him. But I probably wouldn't take him with a top 10 lotto pick, man.

Having said that, I wouldn't at all be surprised if Ishbia did try and draft him for the Michigan connection, as his apparent Michigan boys' club obsession is truly maniacal and troubling. I just hope he leans more into the draft to add young high-end athleticism, key defensive or two-way pieces and cost-controlled depth/ size!

[Ghost of Kleine]

Read on Twitter

Could this make theeir front office worse, leading to the trading of one of Lavine, DeRozan or possibly even Sabonis due to their stuggles?

[Puff]

I don’t need to defend what I think Wishbia will do. He’s not into a rebuild. I think he’ll do everything possible to keep KD, but if a sweet deal comes forward, he could pull the trigger if ok with KD. We are pretty much screwed into mediocrity either way.

As far as waiving Beal, I assume it would put us under the second apron… no need for it if not.

Wait that is too simple and close to what is really going to happen.

1. KD will only be traded to a destination he wants to go to. He basically has an unwritten trade clause.
2. We will only waive Beal if it gets us under the 2nd apron. this problem #1.
3. If we do trade KD, we will get a kings ransom from a team he wishes to play for.

I am with Frank in this conversation. I also think Wishbia, will extend KD, if he is not traded.

I keep repeating this. The guy really in question should be Bud. Gambo keeps saying he is miserable to deal with. That is not guy that you would want running your team. Hire a young assistant from a winning franchise that has one quality, leadership. A guy that makes Book be a 2 guard not, point Book. We need Book concentrated on making shots not creating for others.




T

[Puff]

I don’t need to defend what I think Wishbia will do. He’s not into a rebuild. I think he’ll do everything possible to keep KD, but if a sweet deal comes forward, he could pull the trigger if ok with KD. We are pretty much screwed into mediocrity either way.

As far as waiving Beal, I assume it would put us under the second apron… no need for it if not.

Wait that is too simple and close to what is really going to happen.

1. KD will only be traded to a destination he wants to go to. He basically has an unwritten trade clause.
2. We will only waive Beal if it gets us under the 2nd apron. This is by far problem #1.
3. If we do trade KD, we will get a kings ransom from a team he wishes to play for or we will keep him.

I am with Frank in this conversation. I also think Wishbia, will extend KD, if he is not traded.

I keep repeating this. The guy really in question should be Bud. Gambo keeps saying he is miserable to deal with. That is not guy that you would want running your team. Hire a young assistant from a winning franchise that has one quality, leadership. A guy that makes Book be a 2 guard not, point Book. We need Book concentrated on making shots not creating for others.

[Sunsdeuce]

How are those defense efficiency stats with Dunn against elite teams looking? People want to quote his defense efficiency against garbage teams so much now let’s talk about it against elite competition.

Or how about Beal efficiency on offense with him out of the lineup against elite teams.

All those arguments about how great this team is without Beal and with Dunn in the starting lineup go out the window when the competition is elite. Hence why you should never take stats in small sample size ESPECiALLY when you factor in the competition level.

That Evan kid always wants to throw Beal under the bus and appoint Dunn as the next Shawn Marion but he never gives the full picture. Stats tell the truth against quality opponents. Stars often lie against poor opponents!

This team has no future. Booker and KD aren’t the answers. You can’t rebuild around Booker. Sorry but he ain’t scaring any team, he ain’t even an All-Star. Only a fool would build around Booker when the whole league, country and fan base outside of phx even knows he ain’t an All-Star. Keeping this team together while only trading Beal, Allen, and a hand full of players isn’t going to change the trajectory of this team. And no a new coach ain’t fixing this disaster.

The bottomline is the faster some of you realize that this team needs a full overhaul which includes trading Booker, the faster this team will win again and you all can enjoy watching the Suns again.

I agree with you on the whole man about the suns needing a full rebuild and too many here trying to cling to some delusional belief that everything will miraculously fix itself and come together.

I also agree that Beal isn't really the issue here. Clearly the issue is multiple in nature from roster construction, lack of young talent, lack of high end athleticism, lack of size throughout, lack of physicality, lack of high motor play, lack of competitive tenacity.

I also agree that the whole premise of this win streak giving hope is just another typical "fools gold" scenario that those who have followed this franchise closely for multiple decades now, can identify rather quickly as par for the course buildup before the predisposed letdown or collapse they gift us with every season.

The one thing that I do disagree with is regarding Dunn struggling against a top tier contender like Boston being a clear determinate that he's somehow not going to be very good or has Marion potential. I mean obviously context matters, and in that respect, it's important to not overlook that Dunn is still only a rookie in his learning curve.


So of course any rookie will have struggles at times in their first season if being heavily relied upon not only in their first season, but against the very top tier talent of the entire league! But two things fan be true at once too. And the suns can be a truly better team with him playing in the starting lineup due to a variety of intangible factors. But success is also derived from a team operating as a whole unit, and are team just isn't it.

It might take all players operating as one cohesive unit to be consistently strong. And it would of course be a bit ridiculous to expect a singular rookie to carry an entire team/ roster successfully when still needing obvious development and acclimation to this level (league).

But yes, he can make the team definitively better in his role. But the rest is really on the other players also choosing to show up or not. And the larger sample indicates that they just don't. Too often they appear "unbothered" by anything competitive.

I think the stats are obviously accurate, but the failure comes from the lack of full team buy in defensively rather than it falling singularly on one player.

And especially not a 1st year player in his rookie season struggling occasionally against the very top tier of the league when the rest of the team just chooses to not show up at all. Heck, even Marion himself might have struggled at times in his rookie season against top tier ( in the entire league) contenders..............NO??

To be clear, I like Dunn. My point is his value to the fan base is higher than being realistic. In a few years he’s going to improve. He’s going to be a fantastic role player. Right now, his impact isn’t as extreme as people like Evan make it out to be. But to be very clear, Dunn is going to be in the league a very long time.

[Ghost of Kleine]

Read on Twitter

Rigged you say?? Now, who would ever think the NBA (an entertainment-based business entity) that profits from ratings, viewership, marketing, and dramatic storylines would ever do that!! That'd be just about as crazy as referees beetting on/ fixing games or collusionary deals such as the Luka to LA trade for almost nothing. Or having to always hold the lottery drawings behind closed doors away from public view for absolutely no legitimately, logical, or good reason!

All of the many random and very convenient coincidences are surely just that because the NBA has always shown to be morally above reproach.........right?

[Ghost of Kleine]

How are those defense efficiency stats with Dunn against elite teams looking? People want to quote his defense efficiency against garbage teams so much now let’s talk about it against elite competition.

Or how about Beal efficiency on offense with him out of the lineup against elite teams.

All those arguments about how great this team is without Beal and with Dunn in the starting lineup go out the window when the competition is elite. Hence why you should never take stats in small sample size ESPECiALLY when you factor in the competition level.

That Evan kid always wants to throw Beal under the bus and appoint Dunn as the next Shawn Marion but he never gives the full picture. Stats tell the truth against quality opponents. Stars often lie against poor opponents!

This team has no future. Booker and KD aren’t the answers. You can’t rebuild around Booker. Sorry but he ain’t scaring any team, he ain’t even an All-Star. Only a fool would build around Booker when the whole league, country and fan base outside of phx even knows he ain’t an All-Star. Keeping this team together while only trading Beal, Allen, and a hand full of players isn’t going to change the trajectory of this team. And no a new coach ain’t fixing this disaster.

The bottomline is the faster some of you realize that this team needs a full overhaul which includes trading Booker, the faster this team will win again and you all can enjoy watching the Suns again.

I agree with you on the whole man about the suns needing a full rebuild and too many here trying to cling to some delusional belief that everything will miraculously fix itself and come together.

I also agree that Beal isn't really the issue here. Clearly the issue is multiple in nature from roster construction, lack of young talent, lack of high end athleticism, lack of size throughout, lack of physicality, lack of high motor play, lack of competitive tenacity.

I also agree that the whole premise of this win streak giving hope is just another typical "fools gold" scenario that those who have followed this franchise closely for multiple decades now, can identify rather quickly as par for the course buildup before the predisposed letdown or collapse they gift us with every season.

The one thing that I do disagree with is regarding Dunn struggling against a top tier contender like Boston being a clear determinate that he's somehow not going to be very good or has Marion potential. I mean obviously context matters, and in that respect, it's important to not overlook that Dunn is still only a rookie in his learning curve.


So of course any rookie will have struggles at times in their first season if being heavily relied upon not only in their first season, but against the very top tier talent of the entire league! But two things fan be true at once too. And the suns can be a truly better team with him playing in the starting lineup due to a variety of intangible factors. But success is also derived from a team operating as a whole unit, and are team just isn't it.

It might take all players operating as one cohesive unit to be consistently strong. And it would of course be a bit ridiculous to expect a singular rookie to carry an entire team/ roster successfully when still needing obvious development and acclimation to this level (league).

But yes, he can make the team definitively better in his role. But the rest is really on the other players also choosing to show up or not. And the larger sample indicates that they just don't. Too often they appear "unbothered" by anything competitive.

I think the stats are obviously accurate, but the failure comes from the lack of full team buy in defensively rather than it falling singularly on one player.

And especially not a 1st year player in his rookie season struggling occasionally against the very top tier of the league when the rest of the team just chooses to not show up at all. Heck, even Marion himself might have struggled at times in his rookie season against top tier ( in the entire league) contenders..............NO??

To be clear, I like Dunn. My point is his value to the fan base is higher than being realistic. In a few years he’s going to improve. He’s going to be a fantastic role player. Right now, his impact isn’t as extreme as people like Evan make it out to be. But to be very clear, Dunn is going to be in the league a very long time.

Sure! that's all true, man! But I think that tweet is moreover trying to hint at what kind of impact a player like Dunn with his high motor, length, athleticism, and relentless defensive mentality can have on our team when/if the players buy in feeding off of such energy and tenacity, etc rather than playing with apathy or indifference. It's the defensive aspects that have gone unaddressed for so long that makes his value appealing. But, of course, Dunn alone doesn't accurately raise the team to that level. Simplistically his role is as an energizer and defensive playmaker. But again would need to the rest of the team to consistently buy in defensively, and with effort/ tenacity for those stats to remain consistent, he plays that way consistently.

But one player doesn't make a team, and the rest of the roster is just too inconsistent overall. Dunn plays his role simplistically very well. Beal isn't the problem, but rather a weak scapegoat option for a multitude of critical issues caused by Ishbia and Jones (and probably Isiah Thomas' input" behind the scenes" too). And that tweet again (I believe/interpret it to mean) that when that rotation does feed off of Dunn's energy and athleticism and buy-in under those conditions, those stats become relevant and legitimate. Beal could add to that significantly if properly utilized, but Bud and the Suns may never truly figure things out correctly or expediently. But yes! this iteration of a faux suprerteam neds to be completely blown up and rebuilt from the ground up because their ceiling is capped well below desired expectations. We're in agreement on a multitude of things here man.

[Ghost of Kleine]

Read on Twitter

LOL! funny stuff! ................Good times!

[Slim Charless]

I'd do that trade for their MIA 25' 1st (currently the 8th pick) as long as Ware is coming back; the value is definitely there. Although I don't think they'd actually be willing to trade Ware, for my part, IF Ware is not coming back, then that's huge, and the value isn't remotely close. So that value will have to be made up by them surrendering BOTH their own 25' 1st this year (the 8th pick) and the GS 25' 1st.

Riley and Arison don't care at all about picks because Riley and Arison would rather compete! Especially after the egg on their face from them trading Butler and now missing the playoffs. Getting KD helps them get right back into the playoffs, not only moving past that embarrassing decisional outcome but also mitigating the value they'll give up from the unprotected MIA 26' 1st that OKC now will get because Miami's 25 1st didn't/ won't convey.

Also, I'd likely take that 8th pick and flip it back to Brooklyn for the 19th, 26th, and 35th picks. Or to Orlando for the 15th, 25th, and 42nd picks. Squeeze as much talent out of this draft as possible from a KD move. Overall, though, of the two, I'd probably do the Orlando trade to specifically take:

15- Egor Demin. 6'9 PG- 6'9 Giddey/ Less creative Rubio?
25- Carter Bryant. 6'9 SF/PF- PJ Washington/ better shot-blocking Richard Jefferson.
29- Alex Condon. 6'11 PF - Isiah Hartenstein/ rich mans' Drew Eubanks.
54- Maxime Raynaud. 7'1 PF/C - Pau Gasol.
Unrestrictd two way contracts (3 allowed)

1- Vladislav Goldin (Michigan) 7'1 Ivaca Zubac.
2- John Tonje (Wisconsin) 6'6 220 lb Devin Booker OR Cedric Coward (Washington State) a 6'6 205 lb Colin Sexton with better defense/ better shooting Marcus Smart?
3- Donnie Freeman (Syracuse) a 6'10 dollar store KD/ poor mans' Chris Bosch OR David N'Guessan (K state) 6'9 Jaden Mcdaniels.




Booker/ Beal/ Dunn/ Bol Bol / Richards.
Gillespie/ Allen/ O'neale/ Raynaud/ Ighodaro.
Demin/ FA / Bryant/ Condon/ Goldin.

Well, I was looking at prospects in that range and discovered something.....

What's your opinion on Jase Richardson? Cause that is who will be our pick if we get anywhere within range I'll bet. Not sure if you knew this but Jason Richardson is his dad....the same Jason Richarson who played at Michigan State. That team won a national title.

Guess who else was on that team? I'll give you 1 guess.

There's no way Ishbia passes up a chance to draft his old teammates, a teammate he won a chip with. Hell, we might even trade up and grab Jase.

I actually like Jase for his advanced and shifty ballhandling ability and high-end athleticism. Also his explosive scoring too. However, I haven't really mentioned him because he just reminds me a whole lot of a better ballhandling Bradley Beal/ Anfernee Simons. I just see Jase as being redundant to what we already have in depth at SG. So I mainly focused on other positions. Now, I like him as a player and like his game overall. And if we end up moving Beal for betting fitting pieces, then I wouldn't mind him. But I probably wouldn't take him with a top 10 lotto pick, man.

Having said that, I wouldn't at all be surprised if Ishbia did try and draft him for the Michigan connection, as his apparent Michigan boys' club obsession is truly maniacal and troubling. I just hope he leans more into the draft to add young high-end athleticism, key defensive or two-way pieces and cost-controlled depth/ size!

***IF*** we move Beal for let's say PG13 ( shudders ) then that would free up a backup slot for him. We then move KD to Miami for Ware, Rozier and their 1st this year which is #10 so far. Gives us:

Rozier
Booker
Dunn
PG13
Ware

Ozo/Jase/Grayson/Gillespie off the bench. Plus whatever extra we can get from Philly for taking PG13, maybe their 1st next year or the swaps they own....

Rozier is expiring so he'll be gone. Maybe try and let Gillespie at PG or draft a guy next year. Either way, I don't see Ishbia being talked out of drafting Jase if he's on the board.

[Ghost of Kleine]

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[Ghost of Kleine]

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Where do you guys feel our grade should end up this season?

[Sunsdeuce]

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Where do you guys feel our grade should end up this season?

How can you not agree. The league’s highest payroll and barely …BARELY hanging on to a thread to squeeze into the play in as the 10th seed. That’s epic failure. That’s an F grade all day every day.

Thats leadership failure first and foremost. Everyone in the front office needs to be fired first. Than start the rebuild second.

[Ghost of Kleine]

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Where do you guys feel our grade should end up this season?

How can you not agree. The league’s highest payroll and barely …BARELY hanging on to a thread to squeeze into the play in as the 10th seed. That’s epic failure. That’s an F grade all day every day.

Thats leadership failure first and foremost. Everyone in the front office needs to be fired first. Than start the rebuild second.

[Ghost of Kleine]

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Hooray! for "point Book"!!
it's really paying off for him to be a point guard focusing on passing rather than focusing on scoring. And surely our results back this up too!

[Ghost of Kleine]

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[lilfishi22]

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LOL! funny stuff! ................Good times!

Got Bron in that secret kungfu wrist lock. Not so tough now hey KING JAMES

[lilfishi22]

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Hooray! for "point Book"!!
it's really paying off for him to be a point guard focusing on passing rather than focusing on scoring. And surely our results back this up too!

Doesn't surprise me when he's played 4 straight seasons of some of the worst tanking basketball the league has seen

[Ghost of Kleine]

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As many as 16 teams huh?...lol. I wonder if this could open up the possibilities for larger scale intercontinental or world tournaments/ championship games beyond the olympics?? Also a more direct overseas talent farming possibility too? And increased reevnue options?