2014 Draft Thread

[phrazbit]

Speaking of speculating about the draft, I was just looking in the mock draft forum here and the first two I looked at (in December 3rd updates on threads) had Jahii Carson going in the lottery.....once as high as 8th. viewtopic.php?f=38&t=1259278

Not a chance... he returned to college because scouts viewed him as a 2nd round pick in a terrible draft class and he is still the same player and now in a much stronger class. His mid range and attacking the basket (but below the rim) will not fly in the NBA for a player at his height. He does no pass well enough or shoot from the outside well enough to be a reliable guard.

Someone will might roll the dice on him in the late 1st or 2nd but I do not see him as an NBA prospect.

[Frank Lee]

Draft fever: (Noun) .....

There is hope.

Come on Frank, some fans actually enjoy talking about prospects/the draft more than others.

Some fans are different than others. It doesn't mean you should make fun of them.

Yeah, I just don't support other fans trying to alienate and profile people who doesn't go same the direction as them.
Live and let live I say.

The draft is the MAIN entrance to the NBA every year.
It's the formal method of collegiate (and high school in the past) players entering the professional level.

The DRAFT is part of the NBA.

Also "speculating" is a natural human trait, it's a powerful thing. A lot of people love to speculate and the draft is portion of the NBA where speculation rule.

Jeesus you (fill in a kind word here for thin skinned mambies) completely missed my point. I am prodraft, I love the draft and all the hypetalk that goes with it. ... i jest at those who cringe over each victory as they take us up the draft ladder one rung at a time.


Really.... this board is a conversation board about sports.... How do you guys discuss it at the home front ? Don't tell me...Peter's Parliamentary Procedure ?

Look ... if it upsets you guys greatly that I occasionally utilize smartassic humor and toss a few nicknames out there to make my points, then I suppose I can hold off on my posting







till after the 10pm bedtime hr. Whooops... did it again.

[nevetsov]

In a nutshell, tanking is intentionally throwing games in an effort to finish with a poor record and potentially improve your draft position. This generally applies to players as they are the ones who play the games.

Having a team full of PJ Tucker's would suck and lose a lot of games, however that team would give 110% for 48 minutes and therefore I would not consider the players "tankers". It would just not be a very talented team, capable of winning much.

In the above, It's really the front offices that are being accused of "indirect" tanking, by deliberately trading away good players for less capable players and therefore reducing the winning potential (both immediate and long term) of the team. THIS is really the issue being discussed here.

Some seem to gauge the value of a trade by it's immediate value - eg trading a prime player for picks = tanking, because the immediate impact will be negative. The assessment of the transaction has to be in terms of OVERALL value and not simply immediate value.

Let's use the Gortat trade for example. We traded a very good player in his playing prime for an old busted up guy who probably won't ever play for us. That in isolation would be considered terrible OVERALL value and could be considered a tanking move.

HOWEVER, you must also note that:

- Suns gained additional value by ditching poor players and bad attitudes (Brown, Marshall)
- Suns gained additional value with a 2014 1st
- Contract status of Gortat limited his value (advantage Wizards)
- Contract status of dodgy Okafor (expiring) increased his value to Phoenix

So the above moves the value needle to the Phoenix side. Is it enough to make it fair OVERALL value? I think enough to prevent the trade from being accused of a tank move.

If the trade was something like Gortat and Dragic for Okafor straight up, and then Okafor was waived, then sure, overall value sucks and we would be outraged by both immediate and overall value. Fortunately, we have a vision for the future that does not rely solely on losing and luck.

That said, there are just crappy GMs out there that make bad (poor value) trades all the time.

[bwgood77]

Good post by nevetsov. I don't think any team really goes into the season trying to lose games..players certainly don't....I mean it's their jobs and future on the line. This is the first season it sounded like teams may do that, but the start of most so called "tanking" teams has proved those people wrong.

The only time you seem to see what LOOKS like tanking is when a team is out of the playoffs by mathematical elimination and they have a protected pick they want to keep and suddenly their starters have injuries that put them out for the season. I know some feel this just happens to be an odd coincidence, and that might be the case.

But it is nice to see that all the teams people thought were tanking are competing hard.

[DirtyDez]

When asked on the radio today if teams tank McDonough said, "I'm not sure that's a tough one, but players play and coaches coach to win"... Hmmm. Pretty much backs up theory that front-offices care about draft positioning. What reason did they give for Dragic sitting out last April? Conditioning??

Anyway whatever. We're not picking top-5 and that's fine. McD will do something smart as usual.

[RunDogGun]

However, Nev, moving Gortat also opened a spot for Plumlee, who has filled that spot quite well. So if one looks at a move solely on the players involved, and not at the larger picture, then yes, some moves may look to hinder the team instead of immediately helping that team. I go back to my chess comment of sacrificing one's queen to gain the win.

Now since we drafted a center with our fifth pick, while also regaining Frye, and two other centers in the offseason, is losing Gortat, really a team hurting move?

Maybe after watching how Plumlee ran the floor, both our coach and the GM felt that we already had who we wanted, and Gortat was just an extra.

Also, because Hornacek ran MkMorris at the five, maybe he felt he had enough players to that he trusted to fill any gap that Gortat left.

[nevetsov]

Yeah that's another good point, in that Gortat's "immediate" value to us may have also diminished to the point where we could parlay that into future value (like a developed Plumlee). So the overall value remains somewhat constant.

Perhaps another analogy - lets say we start a new NBA with four teams and each team is awarded players equating to "50 points" worth of talent. More talent means a higher chance of winning the championship.

Team 1 rips off team 2 in a trade so that team 1 now has 60 points worth of talent, and team 2 only has 40 points worth of talent. Team 1 is now the favourite for the championship.

Teams 3 and 4 recognize this and now agree to a trade where team 3 trades 20 points worth of talent to team 4 for 20 points of FUTURE (eg NEXT SEASON's) talent. All of a sudden, team team 4 is the favourite for the championship this season, and while team 3 will probably bottom out this season, it will enter next NEXT SEASON as the favourite due to its own top up of talent (say 20pts from the draft) PLUS 20 pts from the trade.

Realizing there's little chance of winning the championship and trading 20 points of talent now for 20 additional points next year (thus making them the favourites) to me wouldnt constitute tanking.

I would say that "tanking" would be if team 3 traded away it's immediate talent with NO equal value (immediate or future) returning, JUST to reduce current talent to 30 points and the highest chance for a high pick.

Hope that makes sense...

[Frank Lee]

I do not think there is any doubt Phnx wanted to lose a couple games last yr to Utah. I believe a pick was a stake.... not just moving up in the draft, but we would flat out gain a first. (may be we got a second instead... I forget) So we sit Dragic with a semi legitimate reason. I believe that is what happened, right? But is that considered Tanking ? Tossing in the towel for a game or two ?

Seems to me, tanking is an approach/decision involving the season. Look at Boston this yr... they completely yanked the rug on winning, in a legitimate attempt to start over. Are they tanking ? Philly had the same MO.... and even we do/did...

I think we were well on our way to a very mediocre difficult season until McDo went out and pulled the strings for Bledsoe. That was a significant move injecting talent. A few other pieces, Professor Plum and Mr Green, both have turned out well too. Add the improved play of Tucker, Dragic and the return of Frye to it all, and tank over. Is McDo surprised ?

The rebuild will continue, but it was jump started much to the demise of draft focused fans.



PS.... I think a tremendous amount of credit has to go to Hornacek and his staff.

[bigfoot]

Draft fever: (Noun) An infectious all consuming mental condition where the inflicted experiences anxiety, disbelief, and depression when their selected team performs better than expected, and thus reducing their draft pick value. The condition affects teens but often has been detected in adults in their twenties and even a few cases have been reported in their thirties. Particularly acute when subject is exposed to mass doses of internet media focusing on draft sites.
Anger, paranoia, and denial generally arise when the infected are confronted with their behavior. It is not uncommon for sufferers to congregate together in a myopic defiance of reality where they can reassure each other. These group gatherings, also known as Stink Tanks, result in escalating the symptoms and usually end with public outbursts demanding the team to lose for the good of the franchise.
The only known cure is acceptance of multiple strategies to improve a team and a mental release perceiving 19 yrs old collegiate blue-chippers as anointed saviors. One known study has achieved positive results by forcefully submitting the afflicted subjects to a complete viewing of the 1975-76 Phoenix Suns season. This often has to be done with physical restraints and medication as the infected are prone to violence when forced to acknowledge a sports world actually existed prior to their inception. This is to be followed by regular doses of the 1993 season, with each session preceded by a breakdown of the trades for Kevin Johnson and Charles Barkley. Even with these known breakthroughs in treatment, it is quite easy for the afflicted to relapse resulting in angry retorts of 'I told you so' and 'I want a #1 PICK, dammit'. Research has shown this condition could be a life long struggle and many in the medical field are trying to get 'Draft Fever' classified as a disease.

There is hope.

Frank we may have just been lucky. The media hype, blogdoms, and special cable channels dedicated to college basketball weren't around when we were in our 20's. Hell I didn't even get to watch many Suns games. Just listened to Al McCoy on the radio most of the time. "Draft Fever" might be the first computer virus that ever spread to the human race !

[bigfoot]

I do not think there is any doubt Phnx wanted to lose a couple games last yr to Utah. I believe a pick was a stake.... not just moving up in the draft, but we would flat out gain a first. (may be we got a second instead... I forget) So we sit Dragic with a semi legitimate reason. I believe that is what happened, right? But is that considered Tanking ? Tossing in the towel for a game or two ?

Seems to me, tanking is an approach/decision involving the season. Look at Boston this yr... they completely yanked the rug on winning, in a legitimate attempt to start over. Are they tanking ? Philly had the same MO.... and even we do/did...

I think we were well on our way to a very mediocre difficult season until McDo went out and pulled the strings for Bledsoe. That was a significant move injecting talent. A few other pieces, Professor Plum and Mr Green, both have turned out well too. Add the improved play of Tucker, Dragic and the return of Frye to it all, and tank over. Is McDo surprised ?

The rebuild will continue, but it was jump started much to the demise of draft focused fans.



PS.... I think a tremendous amount of credit has to go to Hornacek and his staff.

I agree. I felt we were in for a big losing season until I saw these guys play in the preseason. It was apparent then their athleticism would not let them lost 60+ games. I firmly believe we are ahead of the rebuild schedule because even teams that hit rock bottom and get high draft picks still have to work their way through the playoff ladder which often has rungs at the 7-8 seed before you get to the top.

[RunDogGun]

I do not think there is any doubt Phnx wanted to lose a couple games last yr to Utah. I believe a pick was a stake.... not just moving up in the draft, but we would flat out gain a first. (may be we got a second instead... I forget) So we sit Dragic with a semi legitimate reason. I believe that is what happened, right? But is that considered Tanking ? Tossing in the towel for a game or two ?

Seems to me, tanking is an approach/decision involving the season. Look at Boston this yr... they completely yanked the rug on winning, in a legitimate attempt to start over. Are they tanking ? Philly had the same MO.... and even we do/did...

I think we were well on our way to a very mediocre difficult season until McDo went out and pulled the strings for Bledsoe. That was a significant move injecting talent. A few other pieces, Professor Plum and Mr Green, both have turned out well too. Add the improved play of Tucker, Dragic and the return of Frye to it all, and tank over. Is McDo surprised ?

The rebuild will continue, but it was jump started much to the demise of draft focused fans.



PS.... I think a tremendous amount of credit has to go to Hornacek and his staff.

And yet ironically Boston is first in their division. And a team that spent like crazy to win now (NY) is in last.

I agree about credit to our coaching staff. I think from the start with Horny taking on the summer league, he was able to quickly evaluate our young guys, and that opened up smart moves by McD. We got rid of many of the jaded players from last season, and inserted go getters on both ends of the court.

As for the two games we sat Goran last season, we had to see if Marshall could run our team if needed, without Goran there to bail him out. And it wasn't like we beat Sac a few weeks earlier with Goran running the squad, or like we beat Utah having both Gortat and Goran in the starting lineup.

[Frank Lee]

As for the two games we sat Goran last season, we had to see if Marshall could run our team if needed, without Goran there to bail him out. And it wasn't like we beat Sac a few weeks earlier with Goran running the squad, or like we beat Utah having both Gortat and Goran in the starting lineup.

I don't think that was a move for us to lose as much as it was for Utah to win. We needed utah to make the playoffs to get a pick, which was attached through some other team or something like that.

Frank we may have just been lucky. The media hype, blogdoms, and special cable channels dedicated to college basketball weren't around when we were in our 20's. Hell I didn't even get to watch many Suns games. Just listened to Al McCoy on the radio most of the time. "Draft Fever" might be the first computer virus that ever spread to the human race !

I still listen to Al on league pass audio, even when he is out of sync with the video feed. Its like he is predicting the future.

I wish some creative fan would put together a montage of his sayings and nicknames from day one.
He is the Real McCoy.... I have incorporated many of his saying in my playground trashtalk. 'Twine Time' being my all time fav.

[RunDogGun]

"EJ from KJ" was said so many times.

I miss Al so much, that I used to enjoy the guy from LAC, because he sounded like Al.

We needed Utah to win, but in the back of our minds, we should have known the league was going to everything in their power to get LAL in those playoffs.(last part should be in green font)

[jcsunsfan]

Pretty good podcast with Bill Simmons and Steve Kerr -

It's mostly their thoughts on the NBA season but also Kerr discusses talking to Grant Hill about Jabari Parker (Hill played pickup games with him) and discusses talking to Sean Miller about Aaron Gordon and compares Gordon to Marion.

http://espn.go.com/espnradio/grantland/ ... d=10001397

Funny, that's who I think of when I think of Parker, Grant Hill.

Me too

[Sunsss]

Pretty good podcast with Bill Simmons and Steve Kerr -

It's mostly their thoughts on the NBA season but also Kerr discusses talking to Grant Hill about Jabari Parker (Hill played pickup games with him) and discusses talking to Sean Miller about Aaron Gordon and compares Gordon to Marion.

http://espn.go.com/espnradio/grantland/ ... d=10001397

Funny, that's who I think of when I think of Parker, Grant Hill.

Me too

So you agree with jcsunsfan?

[bwgood77]

Good college game on ESPN...Baylor and Kentucky. Harrison bros looking quite a bit better than last time I saw them. James Young with a decent start. Isaiah Austin of Baylor another guy to watch.

[QuickLikeTheo]

Imagine getting Gary Harris then someone like Dario saric who is very good in transition. Wow we would be good


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

[Blackification]

Looking back at the last couple of drafts a lot of the best players haven't been picked top 5. Look at MCW, Lillard, Bledsoe, Paul George, etc. I think McD is best at finding underrated talent all we need is a pick from 10 - 30 and we will probably end up drafting a good player. Given that we might have 4 in that range I am confident we will get at least one steal in this draft. We really don't need to tank and we aren't even a traditional mid level team because usually they aren't so young and don't have these many picks in a good draft.

The concern is usually mediocre teams need to be blown up because they don't go anywhere, but we blew up a bad team and they became better you don't ruin an unexpected success like that. Its like gambling away 500,000 because you didnt hit the big lottery. You take what you get and you build on it.

I also love reading other fans game threads with worse records than us who call our team garbage right before they lose or say our future isn't really bright and all we have is bledsoe.

[JMac1]

I really don't know where to post this, but I guess here will do since it is more about our future.

I read an article a poster put up on the Suns by NBA.com on a different thread (Hornacek is Awesome?) I just read the above post about other fans saying we stink and the many one of our posts about tanking. Here are the facts.

We are two games over .500 and could have won at least five more games, but we are young and gelling so we didn't. We are two games over and our draft picks are like unopened Xmas gifts. We are two games over and we are a very young team with two really good guards and supporting players. We are two games over and the season is a quarter over.....so we won't be sucking anytime soon. We are two games over and we have three first round picks as of today (Damn Wash lost last night). We are two games over so we don't suck and are fun to watch. We are two games over and don't have a bad contract in the bunch. We are two games over with a rookie coach that appears to be a magnificent choice who demands respect and gives it.

I woke up this morning thinking that we are two over .500 and it is a good thing, because this time we are young with no bad contracts, bad attitudes, and basically six first round draft picks because Len and Goodwin haven't contributed to any of this so far. Like many of you have said, we will get someone in the draft next year or trade for someone or sign a FA and we will be better next year.

I am so happy we don't have to go out and suck this year. I hope we make the playoffs and if we don't I hope we are competitive until the end, because we don't need Wiggins (who doesn't look great so far) or any other "stud" pick to move forward into contention. We just need to keep on winning and making smart moves.

I enjoy watching every game and rooting for victory knowing this; win or lose. Like Bob Marley says, "everything is gonna be alright."

[Ryu]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/nba/ne ... ri-parker/

I am curious to see Noah Vonleh play. His scouting reports are sound interesting, we need a low-post scorer.

And it would be terrific if we indeed get a chance to pick Rodney Hood and Wayne Selden with Minny and Wizz picks.