The One And Only Offseason Thread 5: Dinnertime!

[Scutt]

Goodwin should get minutes because he earns them. My whole point is he shouldn't LOSE minutes because of his bad summer league performance and he shouldn't rot in the D-league all year because of it. If he get minutes at the start and cant produce then, yes, maybe some trips to the D-league would be alright, but I would like to see him at least get an opportunity with the Suns in a real game setting. Summer league is just a bunch of guys trying to show they can make it, there is not a whole lot of structure and teamwork going on, so I don't take it that seriously.

[Moochthemonkey]

We gave up on a young guard in Goran, who torched the Spurs in the playoffs a year before because we were desperate to get Nash into that last playoff spot. That was short sighted and there were a number of fans who were upset about it at the time.

Agreed- again though, that's just one player.

Rolo only wanted to be a starter for another team because our team gave up on him and chose to go with Gortat, again in a bid to get Nash into the playoffs.

That's not true though. Lopez was still the starting center for a while even after the trade for Gortat, but he was playing like crap that year, before and after the trade. Same goes for the '12 season. He still got his minutes so it's not fair to say the Suns gave up on him, but he didn't deserve a starting job, plain and simple. Playoff bid has nothing to do with it.

[/quote] It is not just players, it is draft picks too. [/quote]

ahh, that's a different situation though. You cannot give up on a draft pick if they were never in the plans to begin with. Besides, those were different times- developing youth is not a priority when a team is contending for a championship.

[RunDogGun]

I was thinking about a guy who was one of the best rim protectors and offensive rebounders last year. A guy who would fit this current Suns team like a glove: Robin Lopez. Lets not forget that we traded away Goran Dragic too...

Grasping for straws here. Dragic is one player, it was a questionable trade at the time and "giving up" on one player does not constitute a habit. Plus, Those players were given plenty of minutes and a chance to develop for sure. Robin Lopez wanted to be a starter elsewhere...besides he was thoroughly under-performing his last two years in Phoenix- I don't remember anyone here who was upset trading his ass for a 1st round pick + Wes Johnson + dumping Warrick's contract. I cannot read your mind obviously, but perhaps you are citing Lopez's decent play this year to strengthen an argument that has mostly merit in hindsight.

The Dragic trade was probably the worst since KT + 2 firsts. Dragic had a down year but I still had confidence in him. In retrospect, we traded in a developing prospect for a "sure thing" which totally backfired and I'm sure McD won't make the same mistake.

Goran was pretty terrible the year we traded him, and with Nash, we weren't going to start him. Although since we traded JRich that year,we could have put him in the starting lineup at sg. But had we not traded Goran, he may have never reached his potential in the NBA. I agree, throwing in the first rounder was stupid, but very little rivals the KT trade.

[RunDogGun]

Goodwin should get minutes because he earns them. My whole point is he shouldn't LOSE minutes because of his bad summer league performance and he shouldn't rot in the D-league all year because of it. If he get minutes at the start and cant produce then, yes, maybe some trips to the D-league would be alright, but I would like to see him at least get an opportunity with the Suns in a real game setting. Summer league is just a bunch of guys trying to show they can make it, there is not a whole lot of structure and teamwork going on, so I don't take it that seriously.

Who said he should rot in the DLeague? He needs to learn how to play, and the DLeague is the best place for that now. But he hasn't earned any minutes. He played five games in the DLeague last year, and had two good games last year against Sac. But that doesn't mean squat.

It doesn't matter anyways, if Jeff feels Goodwin is ready, then he will get some minutes. If not, he will either watch games on the bench, or hopefully develop in the league that is designed to accommodate that.

I trust Jeff.

[lilfishi22]

Goran was pretty terrible the year we traded him, and with Nash, we weren't going to start him. Although since we traded JRich that year,we could have put him in the starting lineup at sg. But had we not traded Goran, he may have never reached his potential in the NBA. I agree, throwing in the first rounder was stupid, but very little rivals the KT trade.

No denying Goran had some serious regression to his game but I still hated the trade in principle. A young prospect + a pick for a guy I didn't really want in the first place and an RFA to boot. There was just so many things that had to go right for the trade to be justified and it didn't pan out, as I had expected.

But you are right, not having to play in the shadow of Nash and having the opportunity to be himself really took his game to the next level. The fact that he came back after everything is just the cherry on top of the sundae.

[aIvin adams]

developing youth is not a priority when a team is contending for a championship.

Said no one on the Spurs staff ever

[RunDogGun]

developing youth is not a priority when a team is contending for a championship.

Said no one on the Spurs staff ever

I don't think it was a priority for them, they just didn't neglect it.

[Frank Lee]

We gave up on a young guard in Goran, who torched the Spurs in the playoffs a year before because we were desperate to get Nash into that last playoff spot. That was short sighted and there were a number of fans who were upset about it at the time. Rolo only wanted to be a starter for another team because our team gave up on him and chose to go with Gortat, again in a bid to get Nash into the playoffs. There was a time when Rolo was our "future center". I for one was pissed that we chose Gortat over him, but I will admit I was in the minority on that one. It is not just players, it is draft picks too. This team has a habit of focusing on the present, while not thinking about the future. That is my opinion and how I see it.

Think how much better we'd be if we had theGORTAT. Of course then, we might not have Warren. And I don't think this front office and coach have been around long enough to form any habits other than a no BS hard nosing approach with everyone, especially last yrs and this yrs draft picks.

As for playing time, its going to be a puzzle for Hornecek to figure out. We have a stable of tweener forwards and wings... and really just a couple guys with defined positions. I'm expecting a 10 deep run like hell hard hustle gang rapers to be unleashed each and every night. When you have 6 or 7 guys fighting for minutes, things are bound to get feisty.

[Puff]

Goodwin should get minutes because he earns them. My whole point is he shouldn't LOSE minutes because of his bad summer league performance and he shouldn't rot in the D-league all year because of it. If he get minutes at the start and cant produce then, yes, maybe some trips to the D-league would be alright, but I would like to see him at least get an opportunity with the Suns in a real game setting. Summer league is just a bunch of guys trying to show they can make it, there is not a whole lot of structure and teamwork going on, so I don't take it that seriously.

There is a lot to like about Goodwin but until he learns how to make a jump shot he will never earn consistent playing time. He plays hard but for the most part he reminds me of an out of control bumper car.

I hope he turns it around but I am getting mighty skeptical.

The guy I want to get consistent minutes is Green. He has a chance to be a real factor for this team for the next five years. At times last year he was all NBA.

[lilfishi22]

Rookies earn their game time in practice. He hasn't lost any playing time because he hasn't earned any yet.

If he shows up to camp with improvements and a better jump shot, and keeps it up during practice, he'll naturally earn playing time.

[Qwigglez]

Goodwin should get minutes because he earns them. My whole point is he shouldn't LOSE minutes because of his bad summer league performance and he shouldn't rot in the D-league all year because of it. If he get minutes at the start and cant produce then, yes, maybe some trips to the D-league would be alright, but I would like to see him at least get an opportunity with the Suns in a real game setting. Summer league is just a bunch of guys trying to show they can make it, there is not a whole lot of structure and teamwork going on, so I don't take it that seriously.

There is a lot to like about Goodwin but until he learns how to make a jump shot he will never earn consistent playing time. He plays hard but for the most part he reminds me of an out of control bumper car.

I hope he turns it around but I am getting mighty skeptical.

The guy I want to get consistent minutes is Green. He has a chance to be a real factor for this team for the next five years. At times last year he was all NBA.

Agreed. Goodwin clearly isn't ready for rotation minutes this year, he is very sporadic, and is pretty easy to read IMO. He needs a couple more years to develop, the good thing is we can patiently wait with our rotational players at PG/SG. When he plays in the D-League, I'm not looking for his scoring output, I would rather him work on different parts of his game, like shooting off the dribble, creating for others, and moving without the ball. We all know he can drive with the best of them, but he needs to work on that jump shot.

I have high hopes for Green as well. If we can work out this contract with Bledsoe, our bench is dynamite with Green and Thomas. Tolliver might add more fire power to our bench as well, but I'm not counting on it just yet.

I'd like to get another PF who can bang on the inside, but we'd have to wait to see if any team is gonna buy out a player or just waive em completely (towards the end of the season). I'm looking at David West, but I'm not sure if the Pacers will cut him, especially when he has a player option for the following year. Maybe the Nets situation will get bad enough that KG will ask to get bought out, I wouldn't mind him playing 20 something minutes a night.

[Revived]

Goodwin should get minutes because he earns them. My whole point is he shouldn't LOSE minutes because of his bad summer league performance and he shouldn't rot in the D-league all year because of it. If he get minutes at the start and cant produce then, yes, maybe some trips to the D-league would be alright, but I would like to see him at least get an opportunity with the Suns in a real game setting. Summer league is just a bunch of guys trying to show they can make it, there is not a whole lot of structure and teamwork going on, so I don't take it that seriously.

Agreed.

Goodwin put up LEGIT numbers every time he got good amount of playing time.

[asudevil]

I'm trying to figure out where we can send Bledsoe in a S&T. I dont seen many options and honestly i'm not sure what he's looking for. Does he want a big market Lakers/Knicks or does he want to be closer to home Pelicans/Hawks?

Randle/Nash for Bledsoe? - Nash retires a sun, and Randle gives us more youth. Kobe gets a sidekick to end his career
Calderon/Hardaway for Bledsoe/Green? - Calderon gives us a pass first PG but bad D, and Hardaway gives us more youth at the SG. NY pairs Bledsoe with Melo as their 1/2

Holiday/Anderson for Bledsoe/Green? - We get a cheaper option at PG, and get that stretch 4 we are OBSESSED with. But do the Pelicans risk a solid Davis/Gordon/Bledsoe trio for the potential knee injury problems?
Korver/Teague for Bledsoe/Marcus/2016 First? - Teague gives us a solid PG and Korver a SOLID 3pt bench player. Hawks pair Bledsoe with Horford/Milsap and make a run.

Honestly though the Bledsoe needs to realize that Paul is a TERRIBLE agent, and has no idea how negotiate. Max or NOTHING? ESPECIALLY when we are dealing with an iffy client health. IF Bledsoe takes his QO and even gets a mild injury, its going to cost him millions.

[Sun Scorched]

I think Tolliver will surprise some. I mean, let's be honest, he's not going to shoot worse in PHX. Everyone sees their stats spike here. So worst case he keeps up his shooting %'s from last year - best case? Perhaps he improves some.

Plus, I would encourage you to look at some of the advanced stats for Tolliver - because I promise you the front office did significantly more work doing this than anyone on this board has - and notice the following:

Anthony Tolliver
TS%: .605
eFG%: .586
3p%: .413
WSp48: .117

Channing Frye
TS%: .555
eFG%: .535
3p%: .370
WSp48: .109

Also, for those interested, Tolliver was assisted on 100% of his shots and he shot 80.5% of his FGs from beyond the arc. His corner 3p% was 39%, indicating he shot better at the top of the arc, much like Frye.

Interestingly, Channing Frye only made 29.3% of his corner threes - so, in addition to being better at every advanced metric, Tolliver is also a substantially better shooter from the corner.

Scorched, do you know what the sample size is for each player? I'm too lazy to look it up right now, but I am guessing Frye took a ton more shots than Tolliver. If Tolliver could maintain those numbers over a much larger sample set then the Suns got themselves another steal.

Tolliver posted those stats over 1298 total minutes, 64 games, 20.3 minutes per game. He made 102 of 247 3pt attempts for 41.3% from distance.

Frye posted those stats over 2312 total minutes, 82 games, 28.2 minutes per game. He made 160 of 432 3pt attempts for 37.0% from distance.

[Sunsdeuce]

Can anyone find stats on number of times tolliver posted up compared to number of times frye posted up. Or number of points in the paint?


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[RunDogGun]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... ting/2014/

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... ting/2014/

[bwgood77]

I'm trying to figure out where we can send Bledsoe in a S&T. I dont seen many options and honestly i'm not sure what he's looking for. Does he want a big market Lakers/Knicks or does he want to be closer to home Pelicans/Hawks?

Randle/Nash for Bledsoe? - Nash retires a sun, and Randle gives us more youth. Kobe gets a sidekick to end his career
Calderon/Hardaway for Bledsoe/Green? - Calderon gives us a pass first PG but bad D, and Hardaway gives us more youth at the SG. NY pairs Bledsoe with Melo as their 1/2

Holiday/Anderson for Bledsoe/Green? - We get a cheaper option at PG, and get that stretch 4 we are OBSESSED with. But do the Pelicans risk a solid Davis/Gordon/Bledsoe trio for the potential knee injury problems?
Korver/Teague for Bledsoe/Marcus/2016 First? - Teague gives us a solid PG and Korver a SOLID 3pt bench player. Hawks pair Bledsoe with Horford/Milsap and make a run.

Honestly though the Bledsoe needs to realize that Paul is a TERRIBLE agent, and has no idea how negotiate. Max or NOTHING? ESPECIALLY when we are dealing with an iffy client health. IF Bledsoe takes his QO and even gets a mild injury, its going to cost him millions.

There are different trades with Atlanta that make some sense, but the biggest question when thinking of S&T possibilities is.....is there ANY team out there that really wants to pay him max money anyway? That's doubtful in and of itself. Add in the fact that IF a team was willing why would they want to give up valuable assets as well.

We just need to have him sign eventually and then trade him easy at a reasonable contract. Call his bluff if he starts to say he will take QO and let him take it. He would be easy to trade for a good asset then, and we could probably trade him to a ton of teams. I can't remember if bird rights get traded when a player on the QO gets traded, but I'm sure Brooklyn would give up a decent asset (if they have one) for him and wouldn't mind paying him the max.

But chances are we sign him at something like 4/54 and then we can trade him later if he doesn't come back happy and/or play well or if we find a damn good trade offer.

[RunDogGun]

We won't get much if we traded him after he signed a QO. The only team that would have Bird rights is us. Also Bledsoe could block any trade, like Devon George did.

[Frank Lee]

Bled won't block a trade if it suits him. He takes the QO... he essentially is saying good bye.
McDo and co will show him the door.

[JDLAW]

I'm trying to figure out where we can send Bledsoe in a S&T. I dont seen many options and honestly i'm not sure what he's looking for. Does he want a big market Lakers/Knicks or does he want to be closer to home Pelicans/Hawks?

Randle/Nash for Bledsoe? - Nash retires a sun, and Randle gives us more youth. Kobe gets a sidekick to end his career
Calderon/Hardaway for Bledsoe/Green? - Calderon gives us a pass first PG but bad D, and Hardaway gives us more youth at the SG. NY pairs Bledsoe with Melo as their 1/2

Holiday/Anderson for Bledsoe/Green? - We get a cheaper option at PG, and get that stretch 4 we are OBSESSED with. But do the Pelicans risk a solid Davis/Gordon/Bledsoe trio for the potential knee injury problems?
Korver/Teague for Bledsoe/Marcus/2016 First? - Teague gives us a solid PG and Korver a SOLID 3pt bench player. Hawks pair Bledsoe with Horford/Milsap and make a run.

Honestly though the Bledsoe needs to realize that Paul is a TERRIBLE agent, and has no idea how negotiate. Max or NOTHING? ESPECIALLY when we are dealing with an iffy client health. IF Bledsoe takes his QO and even gets a mild injury, its going to cost him millions.

Don't rack your brain on a sign and trade- there is nothing out there that makes sense. Further don't include Green in these scenarios. The Suns are not going to include him with Bledsoe for any of the mediocrity. Enjoy what's left of the Summer, this will get resolved.