I like Missi a lot but am prepared for him not being there at 22. Kinda like Ajay Mitchell, too. Wouldn't mind trading down for him + a late first or second.
But other than that I'm not following the draft hard, despite me knowing how valuable it is for us with the predicament our team is in. And y'all already know my opinion on any draft prospects is basically worthless on this forum because I rarely follow the draft prospects.
What will happen is what will happen and my expectations for next year and the future are so low they're somewhere in the Earths mantle at this point.
It's not my job and it's on Jones to do his job and not draft a bust.
So we better not draft a bust. Let's go and get ourselves a solid piece
That isn't a given and shouldn't be described as easily fixed. There are poor shooters with decent enough mechanics who just never improved on their shooting and it isn't without trying.
That's a fair statement of course, but context both situational and individual respective are still important considerations too:
Situational for Dunn:
Now how this relates to Dunn is in that his specific role for them focused solely on his elite defensive outlier traits and abilities. .......But again, his specific role was as an elite utility defensive connector/ playmaker and not as an offensive option nor hub. So it's not at all inconceivable that if asked to expand that role more offensively, that he couldn't achieve that too.
He just wasn't directed to be that/ focus on those attributes at Virginia beyond being an elite lockdown defensive stopper for them. Opportunity and development matters.
Dunn may be able to get better at his shooting, but it's not entirely likely. You have tons and tons of guys that never can. You can name guys we have had...Okogie, KBD, Josh Jackson, etc...or a guy Dunn is compared to in Andre Roberson.
Dunn is an awesome defender. It would be great to have him on the floor on that side. But he requires a lot of development to even get CLOSE to being a good shooter, which will likely take years if it happens.
His mindset is very very tentative on the offensive side. Even if open, he usually just passes it. And if he shoots it from 3, it's a 20% shot, and that was against college level from the shorter 3 pt line.
I just don't think you can afford to draft a guy in the NBA today that cannot shoot or hit free throws unless it's an elite defensive big who can finish at the rim.
I have the same concerns as you have about Dunn's (lack of) shooting BUT something that he could do on offense on a high level is finishing at the rim.
He’s efficient as a cutter (75th percentile in NCAA), which accounted for more than a quarter of his offense. He’s even better in transition (93rd percentile) albeit on much lower volume below 14% of his offense. At the rim, he has the athleticism to finish emphatically.
Okogie is too small to be a good finisher at the rim. We can't use him constantly on the dunker spot or as a cutter in the half court offense because of his lack of height.
Dunn is more than 3 inches taller than Okogie and he has a longer wingspan too. Both have elite athleticism, but Dunn's bigger size could make a huge difference for him.
3 mid to late 2nd high impact complimentary alternatives to consider with an acquired 2nd in those ranges. All low cost/ versatile solid value depth pieces
bwgood77 wrote:Dunn may be able to get better at his shooting, but it's not entirely likely. You have tons and tons of guys that never can. You can name guys we have had...Okogie, KBD, Josh Jackson, etc...or a guy Dunn is compared to in Andre Roberson.
Dunn is an awesome defender. It would be great to have him on the floor on that side. But he requires a lot of development to even get CLOSE to being a good shooter, which will likely take years if it happens.
His mindset is very very tentative on the offensive side. Even if open, he usually just passes it. And if he shoots it from 3, it's a 20% shot, and that was against college level from the shorter 3 pt line.
I just don't think you can afford to draft a guy in the NBA today that cannot shoot or hit free throws unless it's an elite defensive big who can finish at the rim.
Dunn finishes near 70% ( 68%) at the rim and has a 10.4% block percentage averaging over 2 blocks a game for a 6'8 wing. It get your concerns, but he'll likely be ok because he won't be needed to be an offensive focal point or offensive hub with all.of the elite offensive weapons our team has currently. His defensive impact will.provide more than enough value to offset his offensive blemishes man. Besides, it's not like we're going to be targeting players to take the ball.out of our stars hands now is it.
I seriously doubt we're expecting star potential from this draft anyways, and we're most likely not prioritizing any high usage options either that'd reduce posessions for our starters either. It should be fairly obvious that this draft will be best served for us to target supplemental utility and connective players for positional depth. And Dunn, despite those valid concerns Ideally fits multiple criteria for our imminent needs.
Besides, if we draft him with a late first or 2nd round pick in a trade back scenario, the implied risk of such concerns is only further minimized due to the lower contextual cost in an already shallow/ weak draft! Being able to get a potential multi time all defensive player even with some attached concerns is still very solid value in this type of draft and considering Jones' track record in the draft.
bwgood77 wrote: Oh, the main reason I quoted that specific part I don't think I said...how do you know that HIS specific role was to ONLY focus on defense and ignore offense? Are you just assuming that because he was so bad at offense? I know Virginia is a defensive team, but do you have some knowledge on what exactly they wanted out of him?
It's more or less a culmination of a number of things even beyond mere assumptions honestly man. Things like understanding the system employed by Tony Bennett, Dunns' freshman season wherein he only averaged around 11-13 minutes off the bench, Dunn himself speaking briefly about his role under Bennett. Coach Bennett gushing about Dunns' willingness to sacrifice his own interests for the sake of the team , etc. Below are numerous articles and clips from those articles briefly describing his situation there and his role, impact, usage, etc:
Dunn's strongest selling point is his phenomenal block and steal rates, using his 7-1 wingspan, quick hands and instincts to shrink the floor as a disruptive perimeter presence. Averaging 2.3 blocks and 1.3 steals per game on the wing last season, despite Virginia's low-possession style, was quite an achievement, giving him a pathway to an NBA niche as a defensive specialist.
- So low possession style and slow pace in very limited playing time didn't properly allow for solid development/ game evolution outside of role.
Dunn started his career at Virginia as a walk-on after Virginia had already filled all scholarships in the 2022 class.
- So Dunn joined up with Virginia as a walk on prospect, meaning he wasn't going to get much playing time in his freshman year for development/ playing time.
Last season, Dunn showed flashes of being an effective player on the offensive end of the floor, but in the 11 minutes-per-game that he got in playing time, there’s just so much you can do.
Despite limited court time last year, Dunn believes it gave him some valuable experience in what he needed to work on defensively.
Bennett, when asked about the expanded role for Dunn this season, replied, “I’ve told him, you have to be a defensive monster for us.”
“He’s got to use that athleticism, quickness, he’s got to help us on the glass in a big way, because we don’t have as much size,” added Bennett.
- Again, statements in this article speak to Dunns' limited playing time AND specific role for the team as outlined by coach Bennett himself with Dunns' sacrifices for the team.
"Dunn's strongest selling point is his phenomenal block and steal rates, using his 7-1 wingspan, quick hands and instincts to shrink the floor as a disruptive perimeter presence. Averaging 2.3 blocks and 1.3 steals per game on the wing last season, despite Virginia's low-possession style, was quite an achievement, giving him a pathway to an NBA niche as a defensive specialist.
- So despite playing in a system that offered low possessions ( limited opportunities) Dunn still managed to excel in his defensive role that they needed from him. But again had very limited opportunities for offensive development in Virginia's defense oriented low pace/ low possession scheme.
Dunn just wrapped up a streaky sophomore season with the Virginia Cavaliers. At multiple points in the season, he was listed as a likely first-round pick and possible lottery selection. However, as the season continued his stock continued to slide. It did not help that Virginia had a lot of issues offensively. Clearly, he had a rough go on the offensive end especially on a team that could not space the floor for him.
- So Virginia was not at all good at offense or spacing the floor. This would/ could obviously limit his opportunities to advance his game offensively when there's no real spacing or offensive scheme to get behind.
Alot of my role was being a rebounder and making plays at the rim, I did that the best I could to try and help my team win.”
- Dunn himself speaking to his specific role with Virginia, and his willingness to put his personal game development aside and make sacrifices for his teams' success.
Dunn played a little over 400 minutes as a freshman — roughly 30 percent of Virginia’s total minutes. We’re dealing with a smaller sample when looking at the numbers; however, Dunn’s impact jumps out when you watch him play, too.
Dunn created all kinds of havoc for Virginia’s defense: 4.6 Stocks (steals + blocks) per 40 minutes.
No real surprise, but Virginia often used Dunn to hedge-and-recover, a foundational element of the Pack Line defense vs. ball screens. On those possessions, Dunn showed good activity showing hard, being a presence at the point of attack, and recovering back to his man. During those recovery moments, Dunn played with good awareness, too.
During his freshman year, Dunn had only a limited number of opportunities to attack one-on-one.
Dunn dished out only nine assists as a freshman in a little over 400 minutes: 4.3 percent assist rate. That said, assists only tell a part of the story. Even in a limited offensive role, Dunn showed some passing reads that extend (at least slightly) beyond station-to-station.
- So in a very limited role, and playing limited minutes, Dunn still managed to be highly impactful for his team and helped to carry his team's defense competitively. Also despite limited possessions and opportunities, Dunn showed underlying elements of development to his game.
- So this tweet speaks directly to how versatile and impactful Dunn can he on both ends while his offensive contributions often go overlooked by many. He can still be impactful on the offensive end because of his various elite attributes.
Dunn started his career at Virginia as a walk-on after Virginia had already filled all scholarships in the 2022 class.
- This speaks to his obstacles and limited opportunities starting out in his freshman season. Having to play behind other more seasoned rotation players.
Last season, Dunn showed flashes of being an effective player on the offensive end of the floor, but in the 11 minutes-per-game that he got in playing time, there’s just so much you can do.
Despite limited court time last year, Dunn believes it gave him some valuable experience in what he needed to work on defensively.
“Guarding some of those elite guys last season was really good for me, I feel like I got a lot out of that,” said Dunn.
Bennett, when asked about the expanded role for Dunn this season, replied, “I’ve told him, you have to be a defensive monster for us.”
“He’s got to use that athleticism, quickness, he’s got to help us on the glass in a big way, because we don’t have as much size,” added Bennett. At times last year, Dunn was the Cavaliers’ human highlight reel, displaying that athleticism with some monstrous dunks and rejections.
So why the intensity on the defensive end of the floor for Dunn?
Arriving on Grounds, Dunn was fully aware that the most successful Bennett defensive teams were anchored by an elite defender.
“When you play for Tony, you know what he expects, if you can’t measure up defensively, then you’re going to have a problem getting playing time,” said Dunn.
- These statements in this article speak to not only the limitations Dunn faced in terms of opportunity and playing time. But also to Coach Bennett's view of his role and the expectations for Dunn to focus on defensive impact and the specific role asked of him by the coach.
I feel like my energy and passion defensively leads to offense. If I don’t score, I don’t mind, but I’m trying to be the energy guy and passion guy for the team,” Dunn said.
A scholarship spot did end up becoming available, but Dunn’s willingness to commit showed what he was willing to sacrifice to play at UVA. He says he’s excited for his first ACC tournament.
- This speaks to Dunn's willingness to sacrifice his offensive and personal game development in order to put his team's success first!
Bennett said Dunn is a nascent facsimile of former UVA stars who impacted games with their energy and defensive versatility. Players like Akil Mitchell, De’Andre Hunter, Justin Anderson and Isaiah Wilkins, to name a few.
- This speaks to the Virginia coaches view and expectations for Dunn in his role there defensively.
Ghost of Kleine wrote: That's a fair statement of course, but context both situational and individual respective are still important considerations too:
Situational for Dunn:
Now how this relates to Dunn is in that his specific role for them focused solely on his elite defensive outlier traits and abilities. .......But again, his specific role was as an elite utility defensive connector/ playmaker and not as an offensive option nor hub. So it's not at all inconceivable that if asked to expand that role more offensively, that he couldn't achieve that too.
He just wasn't directed to be that/ focus on those attributes at Virginia beyond being an elite lockdown defensive stopper for them. Opportunity and development matters.
Dunn may be able to get better at his shooting, but it's not entirely likely. You have tons and tons of guys that never can. You can name guys we have had...Okogie, KBD, Josh Jackson, etc...or a guy Dunn is compared to in Andre Roberson.
Dunn is an awesome defender. It would be great to have him on the floor on that side. But he requires a lot of development to even get CLOSE to being a good shooter, which will likely take years if it happens.
His mindset is very very tentative on the offensive side. Even if open, he usually just passes it. And if he shoots it from 3, it's a 20% shot, and that was against college level from the shorter 3 pt line.
I just don't think you can afford to draft a guy in the NBA today that cannot shoot or hit free throws unless it's an elite defensive big who can finish at the rim.
I have the same concerns as you have about Dunn's (lack of) shooting BUT something that he could do on offense on a high level is finishing at the rim.
He’s efficient as a cutter (75th percentile in NCAA), which accounted for more than a quarter of his offense. He’s even better in transition (93rd percentile) albeit on much lower volume below 14% of his offense. At the rim, he has the athleticism to finish emphatically.
Okogie is too small to be a good finisher at the rim. We can't use him constantly on the dunker spot or as a cutter in the half court offense because of his lack of height.
Dunn is more than 3 inches taller than Okogie and he has a longer wingspan too. Both have elite athleticism, but Dunn's bigger size could make a huge difference for him.
Sure, it's largely dunks on fast break or cuts, but what makes cutting easier in the NBA is being able to spread the floor and hit 3s. Sure, if no one's guarding him it will be easier to cut but with the doubles on other guys or more crowded paint it will be harder for teammates to find him, particularly not having a great court vision guy....Kolek could find him but of course we won't' have both of them. I'll be very surprised if we take Dunn, even if he's there. He wouldn't get much playing time and obviously wouldn't play before Allen or Royce...I know he could probably play some at the 4 given his rim protection skills but then you'd need a stretch 5. Maybe he could play with Bol Bol if we still have him.
I like Dunn if he’s our 2nd or 3rd pick and used as a developmental piece assuming suns like what he’s showing in workouts…. He has probably spent the last 4 months solely focused on shooting, I wouldn’t rule out an improvement being possible.
One of the things that I like about Dunn is that it’s not just his 1-1 defense that’s amazing, it’s his help defense which could really help cover up some weaknesses.
bwgood77 wrote: Dunn may be able to get better at his shooting, but it's not entirely likely. You have tons and tons of guys that never can. You can name guys we have had...Okogie, KBD, Josh Jackson, etc...or a guy Dunn is compared to in Andre Roberson.
Dunn is an awesome defender. It would be great to have him on the floor on that side. But he requires a lot of development to even get CLOSE to being a good shooter, which will likely take years if it happens.
His mindset is very very tentative on the offensive side. Even if open, he usually just passes it. And if he shoots it from 3, it's a 20% shot, and that was against college level from the shorter 3 pt line.
I just don't think you can afford to draft a guy in the NBA today that cannot shoot or hit free throws unless it's an elite defensive big who can finish at the rim.
I have the same concerns as you have about Dunn's (lack of) shooting BUT something that he could do on offense on a high level is finishing at the rim.
He’s efficient as a cutter (75th percentile in NCAA), which accounted for more than a quarter of his offense. He’s even better in transition (93rd percentile) albeit on much lower volume below 14% of his offense. At the rim, he has the athleticism to finish emphatically.
Okogie is too small to be a good finisher at the rim. We can't use him constantly on the dunker spot or as a cutter in the half court offense because of his lack of height.
Dunn is more than 3 inches taller than Okogie and he has a longer wingspan too. Both have elite athleticism, but Dunn's bigger size could make a huge difference for him.
Sure, it's largely dunks on fast break or cuts, but what makes cutting easier in the NBA is being able to spread the floor and hit 3s. Sure, if no one's guarding him it will be easier to cut but with the doubles on other guys or more crowded paint it will be harder for teammates to find him, particularly not having a great court vision guy....Kolek could find him but of course we won't' have both of them. I'll be very surprised if we take Dunn, even if he's there. He wouldn't get much playing time and obviously wouldn't play before Allen or Royce...I know he could probably play some at the 4 given his rim protection skills but then you'd need a stretch 5. Maybe he could play with Bol Bol if we still have him.
So which is it? IF no one's guarding him knowing he's an elite cutter and rim finisher for a wing then he'll be impactful cutting offensively. And the inverse of IF someone is guarding him, then the premise of the double team doesn't really apply does it.
Also, it's not like we don't or won't have very good to elite three point floor spacers on our roster to accommodate better floor spacing man. I mean which of Beal, Booker, Durant, Allen, O'neale, etc are not really good enough to space yhe floor for us? And despite the fact that I've already repeatedly shared multiple names as options from.the undrafted ranges of players that all have career numbers well over 40% from three and one at a minimum 39% too, there'll still be a number of unsigned floor spacing bigs available for us in free agency if we so choose to pursue them.
Right off the top of my head, you have names like Mike Muscala, Meyers Leonard, Matthew Hurt, John Butler, Joey Hauser, Frank " the tank" Kaminsky, Pter Cornelie (my favorite cheap overseas consideration), maybe even consider Gallinari or Love in that backup role?
With all of our strong to elite perimeter and scoring options, this honestly won't be a problem man. Our team is already uniquely dominant offensively. What we severely lack is a lot of the very traits/ attributes that Dunn possesses to elite levels. Now as for the playmaking/ court vision concerns, we can initiate a trade back and draft Dunn as a 2nd option AFTER KOLEK! But even if Kolek was gone, you still have numerous high level table setting playmaking guards/ combo guards well into the 2nd round that could address those very concerns. Guards like Ajay Mitchell, Zion Pullin Cam Spencer, Tristan Newton, Jamal Shead, Juan Nunez, Reece Beekman, etc.
And those are names aside from the many options in free agency too. And you're very right that he wouldn't play much, except behind Allen and O'neale. However, that doesn't mean he wouldn't provide extreme value or impact as a late first or 2nd round swing considering his elite defensive abilities and our corresponding needs he can address in matchup specific situations.
Crives wrote:One of the things that I like about Dunn is that it’s not just his 1-1 defense that’s amazing, it’s his help defense which could really help cover up some weaknesses.
Yeah, I'm not asking for Dunn to be our first or even only selection by any means. I'm of the mind that because we have multiple utility and positional needs, we should utilize this draft to try and address as many of those as we can with the understanding that we're not expecting star talent from this draft, but rather at minimum, the ability to shore up multiple areas we're thin at positionally PRIOR TO heading into free agency.
I say this because at least with the draft, we can if somewhat aggressive, add multiple depth pieces that are controlled, have supplemental/ complimentary or even elite utility or connective skillsets that our roster has severely lacked and isn't easily available to us in free agency or trade due to our 2nd apron restrictions.
Trades and free agency have us hamstrung by 2nd apron penalties/ restrictions. At least with the draft we are not confined or restricted by such mechanisms and can somewhat circumvent our situation if we're clever. I like Dunn because he specifically addresses at least 4-5 key attributes that our roster lacks. And because his defensive versatility is just so elite, he affords us the ability to draft a somewhat lesser/ more limited defensive center option because he covers so much ground all over the court defensively.
So even if we missed on Missi, Dunn will still bring a 10% block percentage 2 blocks a game, strong rebounding for a wing and suffocating recovery/ switch defense. I'm not terribly concerned with his offensive struggles BECAUSE our team is already elite from the perimeter and in scoring which can offset those concerns easily enough.
And adding lockdown defensive pressure would afford our starters more rest from having to constantly rebuild leads because he can significantly slow down or stop/ blow up opposing teams entire offensive schemes. Meaning they won't be making runs or cutting into the early leads our big three build as easily. Strengthening our very mediocre defense takesalot of pressureoff our stars and make our offensive dominance much more difficult to come back from!
Saberestar wrote:I have the same concerns as you have about Dunn's (lack of) shooting BUT something that he could do on offense on a high level is finishing at the rim.
Okogie is too small to be a good finisher at the rim. We can't use him constantly on the dunker spot or as a cutter in the half court offense because of his lack of height.
Dunn is more than 3 inches taller than Okogie and he has a longer wingspan too. Both have elite athleticism, but Dunn's bigger size could make a huge difference for him.
Sure, it's largely dunks on fast break or cuts, but what makes cutting easier in the NBA is being able to spread the floor and hit 3s. Sure, if no one's guarding him it will be easier to cut but with the doubles on other guys or more crowded paint it will be harder for teammates to find him, particularly not having a great court vision guy....Kolek could find him but of course we won't' have both of them. I'll be very surprised if we take Dunn, even if he's there. He wouldn't get much playing time and obviously wouldn't play before Allen or Royce...I know he could probably play some at the 4 given his rim protection skills but then you'd need a stretch 5. Maybe he could play with Bol Bol if we still have him.
So which is it? IF no one's guarding him knowing he's an elite cutter and rim finisher for a wing then he'll be impactful cutting offensively. And the inverse of IF someone is guarding him, then the premise of the double team doesn't really apply does it.
Also, it's not like we don't or won't have very good to elite three point floor spacers on our roster to accommodate better floor spacing man. I mean which of Beal, Booker, Durant, Allen, O'neale, etc are not really good enough to space yhe floor for us? And despite the fact that I've already repeatedly shared multiple names as options from.the undrafted ranges of players that all have career numbers well over 40% from three and one at a minimum 39% too, there'll still be a number of unsigned floor spacing bigs available for us in free agency if we so choose to pursue them.
Right off the top of my head, you have names like Mike Muscala, Meyers Leonard, Matthew Hurt, John Butler, Joey Hauser, Frank " the tank" Kaminsky, Pter Cornelie ( my favorite cheap overseas consideration), maybe even consider Gallinari or Love in that backup role?
With all of our strong to elite perimeter and scoring options, this honestly won't be a problem man. Our team is already uniquely dominant offensively. What we severely lack is a lot of the very traits/ attributes that Dunn possesses to elite levels. Now as for the playmaking/ court vision concerns, we can initiate a trade back and draft Dunn as a 2nd option AFTER KOLEK! But even if Kolek was gone, you still have numerous high level table setting playmaking guards/ combo guards well into the 2nd round that could address those very concerns. Guards like Ajay Mitchell, Zion Pullin Cam Spencer, Tristan Newton, Jamal Shead, Juan Nunez, Reece Beekman, etc.
And those are names aside from the many options in free agency too. And you're very right that he wouldn't play much, except behind Allen and O'neale. However, that doesn't mean he wouldn't provide extreme value or impact as a late first or 2nd round swing considering his elite defensive abilities and our corresponding needs he can address in matchup specific situations.
If he wasn't so poor offensively, as in virtually no on-ball skills at all, I'd be way more open to taking a punt on Dunn. I also don't think our team with this many offensive options means you can have a complete zero offensively. One comment I came across a few times from scouting reports is that he wasn't looking to score at all even when the opportunity was there to be aggressive because that just means teams are more than happy to leave him open. Especially if you consider he'll most likely be coming off the bench (assuming it's still the same starting line up as last year) where we don't have the offensive options like we do with the starters to cover for him, being a zero becomes an even bigger weakness to be exploited.
Limited offensive skill set, lacks contribution on-ball and struggles with shooting, driving, passing, and screening
Inconsistent jumper, low shooting efficiency from beyond the arc and at the free-throw line
I'd take a punt on him if we had another pick and he was to fall but assuming we just have the one pick in this draft (no trade backs), I just don't feel good at all using that on a guy with this big of a weakness. Like when I look at a guy like Missi for example, they have very similar weaknesses (can't shoot, poor FT shooter, poor passer, can't do much with the ball) and those are weaknesses you generally associate with a lower skilled, ultra-athletic big man. So you have a good sized wing, who can't shoot, can't drive, isn't a playmaker, isn't a good screener but also not the ideal small ball 5 size either. I don't feel like we have the roster to fully maximise his defense and hide him offensively because his offense is just too far behind imo.
22. Phoenix Suns Ryan Dunn, SF/PF, Virginia | Age: 21.4
Dunn is said to be gaining steam in this range of the draft after a slew of outstanding workouts this month propelled him firmly into the first round. Several teams have said Dunn exceeded expectations with his shooting while also doing some absolutely mesmerizing things defensively in guarding point guards through centers in group settings.
Chicago, Toronto and the New York Knicks are others that rival teams indicate could be high on him.
The Suns might look more to free agency to explore adding a point guard to their roster, with Kris Dunn (not related) one potential option that rival teams expect them to look at. Trading back to resupply their depleted stockpile of assets (especially future picks) is another option the Suns' front office is said to be considering, due to the severely limited mechanics the team has to add talent with the punitive new second-apron rules that go into effect this summer. -- Givony
Something to consider, last couple years we have been top FA destination for min contracts in FA.. very curious to see how this offseason goes after trading 3 min players and supposedly aggrevating the other two (Gordon/Eubanks).. I think Book/KD/Beal still have the power to draw some good vet mins, but filling out roster with older rookies might be really important this year if we have more trouble in FA.
bwgood77 wrote: Sure, it's largely dunks on fast break or cuts, but what makes cutting easier in the NBA is being able to spread the floor and hit 3s. Sure, if no one's guarding him it will be easier to cut but with the doubles on other guys or more crowded paint it will be harder for teammates to find him, particularly not having a great court vision guy....Kolek could find him but of course we won't' have both of them. I'll be very surprised if we take Dunn, even if he's there. He wouldn't get much playing time and obviously wouldn't play before Allen or Royce...I know he could probably play some at the 4 given his rim protection skills but then you'd need a stretch 5. Maybe he could play with Bol Bol if we still have him.
So which is it? IF no one's guarding him knowing he's an elite cutter and rim finisher for a wing then he'll be impactful cutting offensively. And the inverse of IF someone is guarding him, then the premise of the double team doesn't really apply does it.
Also, it's not like we don't or won't have very good to elite three point floor spacers on our roster to accommodate better floor spacing man. I mean which of Beal, Booker, Durant, Allen, O'neale, etc are not really good enough to space yhe floor for us? And despite the fact that I've already repeatedly shared multiple names as options from.the undrafted ranges of players that all have career numbers well over 40% from three and one at a minimum 39% too, there'll still be a number of unsigned floor spacing bigs available for us in free agency if we so choose to pursue them.
Right off the top of my head, you have names like Mike Muscala, Meyers Leonard, Matthew Hurt, John Butler, Joey Hauser, Frank " the tank" Kaminsky, Pter Cornelie ( my favorite cheap overseas consideration), maybe even consider Gallinari or Love in that backup role?
With all of our strong to elite perimeter and scoring options, this honestly won't be a problem man. Our team is already uniquely dominant offensively. What we severely lack is a lot of the very traits/ attributes that Dunn possesses to elite levels. Now as for the playmaking/ court vision concerns, we can initiate a trade back and draft Dunn as a 2nd option AFTER KOLEK! But even if Kolek was gone, you still have numerous high level table setting playmaking guards/ combo guards well into the 2nd round that could address those very concerns. Guards like Ajay Mitchell, Zion Pullin Cam Spencer, Tristan Newton, Jamal Shead, Juan Nunez, Reece Beekman, etc.
And those are names aside from the many options in free agency too. And you're very right that he wouldn't play much, except behind Allen and O'neale. However, that doesn't mean he wouldn't provide extreme value or impact as a late first or 2nd round swing considering his elite defensive abilities and our corresponding needs he can address in matchup specific situations.
If he wasn't so poor offensively, as in virtually no on-ball skills at all, I'd be way more open to taking a punt on Dunn. I also don't think our team with this many offensive options means you can have a complete zero offensively. One comment I came across a few times from scouting reports is that he wasn't looking to score at all even when the opportunity was there to be aggressive because that just means teams are more than happy to leave him open. Especially if you consider he'll most likely be coming off the bench (assuming it's still the same starting line up as last year) where we don't have the offensive options like we do with the starters to cover for him, being a zero becomes an even bigger weakness to be exploited.
Limited offensive skill set, lacks contribution on-ball and struggles with shooting, driving, passing, and screening
Inconsistent jumper, low shooting efficiency from beyond the arc and at the free-throw line
I'd take a punt on him if we had another pick and he was to fall but assuming we just have the one pick in this draft (no trade backs), I just don't feel good at all using that on a guy with this big of a weakness. Like when I look at a guy like Missi for example, they have very similar weaknesses (can't shoot, poor FT shooter, poor passer, can't do much with the ball) and those are weaknesses you generally associate with a lower skilled, ultra-athletic big man. So you have a good sized wing, who can't shoot, can't drive, isn't a playmaker, isn't a good screener but also not the ideal small ball 5 size either. I don't feel like we have the roster to fully maximise his defense and hide him offensively because his offense is just too far behind imo.
Not to discount or ignore yours and BWGOODs' valid and stated concerns around Dunns' shooting struggles, but Dunn isn't an " absolute Zero" on offense. As any of the scouting reports will tell you ( at least the better/ more detailed and prominent ones) Dunn is an above average cutter/ slasher due to his high IQ and spatial awareness. He's also a strong finisher at/ around the rim with a finishing % of 68% and that's even through/ over defenders due to his 6'8 frame, 7'1 wingspan and 38 inch vertical.
Also, some interesting things probably not many people were/ are aware of about his game:
The good thing for whoever ends up drafting him though, is that there is reason to believe that he can turn into a good, if not serviceable shooter in a few years. In high school, Dunn was known as a very good shooter who showcased a pure stroke and quick release, allowing him to score over defenders and on the move.
While he only shot 31.3% (on 16 attempts) as a freshman, Dunn was a sniper from deep in high school. He has a pure stoke and quick release, with the ability to score on the move and pull-up over defenders.
He has great mobility, mostly via his fluid hips, and good lateral quickness. Dunn doesn’t have a quick first step when comparing it to other NBA athletes, but his ability to decelerate with a great last step helps him to keep his balance at all times. His footwork is the primary reason why he’s such a reliable on-ball defender.
On the offensive end, his footwork is developing, where he’s mostly being used as a play-finisher on cuts. While his mobility is a clear translatable part of his game, there are areas to clean up regarding Dunn’s usage of his physical tools to be productive.
Offense
As per ShotQuality.com, Virginia ranked outside the top 250 when it came to efficiency on plays via cuts. Dunn was a clear positive for them on that end. Despite the slow-paced offense they ran, Dunn consistently shows his willingness to stay in motion, opening himself up for finishes at the rim.
At 67.9% finishing at the rim, that’s a good number for Dunn to work with. Despite being a right-hand dominant finisher near the basket, Dunn uses motion to leverage his physical tools to keep defenses on their heels. On an NBA floor, teams will ignore him when he’s stationed in the corner during half-court settings. However, teams relying on motion in their offensive schemes will use Dunn’s active cutting to create space for others on the floor.
Well-thought motion is what NBA teams look for, and that’s where Dunn sets himself up to succeed on that end.
Dunn has a good feel for the game as a cutter by selling the idea he’s relocating to the corner. Dunn is a 75 %-finisher in transition.
Applying ball pressure is one of his primary weapons. Dunn shows good positioning to get himself open for the pass in transition. Or to cash in on backdoor cuts as shown in the fourth play below. His good habits that make him such an effective cutter are what he will rely on as it’s more likely Dunn will run in transition as the off-ball player more often than not.[/color][/i][/b]
Dunn’s biggest value as a connector piece wing is his passing. He has a great passing touch that wasn’t used much at Virginia in the last two seasons. At 0.8 assists per game, the numbers indicate that he has no value as a playmaker. However, an important nuance is that Virginia plays a guard-heavy slow-paced game that leads to a limited amount of field goals per game. Dunn was their finisher on plays and was asked mostly to move the ball, and not make plays for others.
There are important flashes that make it feasible that Dunn will fastly improve as a passer in the NBA. Quickly executing basic reads as these give him a solid base to work within a faster-paced NBA game with more ball movement.
Answering on-ball pressure is the key element for ball handlers in creating advantages, and Dunn is showing flashes he can do it for a team in the long run.
Probably the biggest riser of the bunch, it was expected by many (including yours truly) that Dunn would redshirt his first season as a Cavalier. Boy should Virginia fans be glad he didn’t. The 6’8” wing has been getting better and better with more opportunities as he’s been fantastic defensively and is starting to show more signs of life offensively.
While his 6-foot-6 frame and quickness is what jumps off the page, he used the grassroots circuit to show that he’s more than just length and physical tools. Dunn showed some incredible touch from 3-point range playing for the New York Jayhawks on the adidas 3SSB circuit and proved to be a solid secondary ball handler as well.
COACH’S CORNER
“At 6-foot-7 Ryan is a prototypical big guard. He guards 1 through 3, rebounds above the rim and has high level athleticism. He shoots the ball at a high level and has an underrated passing ability.” -- New York Jayhawks director Jay David, who coaches Dunn on the grassroots circuit.
Despite his stellar defense, offensive inconsistencies kept Dunn from seeing 20-plus minutes of playing time per game last season. He displayed moments of brilliance, with a notable two-game stretch to end the regular season in which he scored a combined 19 points on 8/9 from the field. Yet he primarily contributed as a crowd-amplifier, finishing off basket-cuts and fast breaks with rim-rocking dunks.
His excellent shooting and defensive versatility provide Dunn with a solid base to grow from.A 40%+ three-point shooter in both high school and AAU competition, that’s his best offensive skill. When you combine that with his physical tools, a well above average athlete with a 7-foot wingspan, the potential upside is very high.
There's many more articles on these unknown/ under the radar attributes. Dunn although not currently a significant offensive weapon still does exhibit the foundational versatility to his overall skillset to impact the game on various levels even aside from shooting.
Although he also has been a really good shooter in the past prior to his insane growth spurt as a 5'11 guard in high school and AAU games. So that underlying ability was already present and is still there once he adjusts ba k to it. Also please read Ersin demirs' full draft report on Dunn that details and even illustrates ( in video clips) Dunns' underutilized passing ability.
Lastly, Dunn as detailed above is a 75% finisher in transition and a high IQ very aware above average cutter/ slasher who utilizes constant motion, spacing, deceleration, anticipation to be impactful on the offensive end. And if he can just adjust back to his stellar 40+% 3 PT shooting in high school, AAU etc, then he'll become one hell of a versatile connective utility wing with 3 & d lockdown defense and playmaking upside too.
I'm not saying he should be our sole pick at 22, but rather that we should absolutely trade down and take him as a 2nd pick top option with great upside potential. And if he's coming off the bench as a possible late first to 2nd round pick, then his concerns will only be further mitigated by the reduced implied risks of that range anyways.
But just as I responded to BWgood above, its really not like we don't/ won't have numerous 3 or floor spacing options that we can add to our bench via the undrafted pool or in free agency if we only choose to do so.
As I said in a previous post Dunn looks similar and probably as ready as that Omax guy Mavs drafted and put in g league for majority of the season. They had a lot more wings on the bench than we do, so hope even if raw and Jones picks him, he'll have a role and see the floor for us. Still my guess is FO goes with a ready to contribute player in Kolek if available or trade down and pick two prospects.
sunsbg wrote:As I said in a previous post Dunn looks similar and probably as ready as that Omax guy Mavs drafted and put in g league for majority of the season. They had a lot more wings on the bench than we do, so hope even if raw and Jones picks him, he'll have a role and see the floor for us. Still my guess is FO goes with a ready to contribute player in Kolek if available or trade down and pick two prospects.
That's what I'd honestly want with Dunn! Trade back down ( if not including the 2031 1st in trade to move up) and getting an additional 2nd round pick or two in the process. I'd love to get some combination of:
- Kolek ( late 20s' ) and Dunn ( 32- 37 range). - Missi and Kolek. - Missi and Mitchell. - Tyler Smith and Kolek. - Tyler Smith and Dunn. Tyler Smith and Mitchell. *** Ware ( will be gone before 22) and Kolek. - Ware and Mitchell. - Ware and Tyson. Missi and Dunn. ** Zyon Pullin and Blake Hinson from the undrafted range pool. Etc, etc, etc.
Then add the alternative compliments for whatever positions we don't draft via from the undrafted range prospects. I'm not asking for Dunn to be our top pick or first pick if we acquire multiple picks somehow. But only that we find a way to somehow walk out of this draft with one of the above combinations I've listed.
And acquiring an elite switchable lockdown athletic presence whether it be Missi or Dunn is of critical importance to me because we had no answers to really slow down or stop opposing teams top players! And our only legit plus defensive option is a injury prone 36 yr old Durant. And once he's gone, we'll have no elite , high end or lockdown defensive stoppers.
People can fawn over the aesthetically pleasing abilities of offensive players. But being able to score alot does no good if you also can't really stop opposing teams from scoring as you'll keep giving up leads and exhaust yourself trying to keep scoring just to stay ahead of the opposition. There are two sides of the ball that you must be dominant at in order to be a contender.
For us ( our team) we're 80% there offensively, but only 20% at best defensively. WE NEED LOCKDOWN DEFENSIVE STOPPERS and High end rim protection to take that next step. And there just aren't that many ( if any) available lockdown defensive options in free agency for us.
Ghost of Kleine wrote: I'm not saying he should be our sole pick at 22, but rather that we should absolutely trade down and take him as a 2nd pick top option with great upside potential. And if he's coming off the bench as a possible late first to 2nd round pick, then his concerns will only be further mitigated by the reduced implied risks of that range anyways.
But just as I responded to BWgood above, its really not like we don't/ won't have numerous 3 or floor spacing options that we can add to our bench via the undrafted pool or in free agency if we only choose to do so.
HoopsHype's @MikeAScotto reported today that "some in New York believe Dunn will be off the board" when the Knicks are on the clock at No. 24.
Givony has Dunn going #22 today. With Raptors and Bulls interested in him.
He is not gonna be available if we trade down, it's pretty obvious with every new and more accurate mock draft.
IMO we need to grab him if he is available at #22.
Ghost of Kleine wrote: I'm not saying he should be our sole pick at 22, but rather that we should absolutely trade down and take him as a 2nd pick top option with great upside potential. And if he's coming off the bench as a possible late first to 2nd round pick, then his concerns will only be further mitigated by the reduced implied risks of that range anyways.
But just as I responded to BWgood above, its really not like we don't/ won't have numerous 3 or floor spacing options that we can add to our bench via the undrafted pool or in free agency if we only choose to do so.
HoopsHype's @MikeAScotto reported today that "some in New York believe Dunn will be off the board" when the Knicks are on the clock at No. 24.
Givony has Dunn going #22 today. With Raptors and Bulls interested in him.
He is not gonna be available if we trade down, it's pretty obvious with every new and more accurate mock draft.
IMO we need to grab him if he is available at #22.
Could be…. Also very possibly playing games to get better assets on a trade down with the knicks
Ghost of Kleine wrote: I'm not saying he should be our sole pick at 22, but rather that we should absolutely trade down and take him as a 2nd pick top option with great upside potential. And if he's coming off the bench as a possible late first to 2nd round pick, then his concerns will only be further mitigated by the reduced implied risks of that range anyways.
But just as I responded to BWgood above, its really not like we don't/ won't have numerous 3 or floor spacing options that we can add to our bench via the undrafted pool or in free agency if we only choose to do so.
HoopsHype's @MikeAScotto reported today that "some in New York believe Dunn will be off the board" when the Knicks are on the clock at No. 24.
Givony has Dunn going #22 today. With Raptors and Bulls interested in him.
He is not gonna be available if we trade down, it's pretty obvious with every new and more accurate mock draft.
IMO we need to grab him if he is available at #22.
Great points man! I could totally see those situations playing out. So much to the lamentation of many here who would overstate or over dramatize Dunns' weaknesses, that's why I have repeatedly also pointed out the availability of other high end point guard options like: Ajay Mitchell, Zion Pullin, Cam Spencer, Tristan Newton, Jamal Shead, Reexe Beekman, Ta'lon Cooper, Juan Nunez, etc.
I love Kolek! BUT all of Mitchell, Pullin, Spencer are high end playmaking floor generals that are also exceptional shooters with high IQs. So we could still easily enough take Dunn at 22 alternatively and STILL get a high end playmaking floor general combo guard in the 2nd round to undrafted two way pool. And also get a solid center option too in any of: ULRICHE COMCHE ( 6'11 248 lbs with a 7'4 wingspan averaging 3.8 blocks and 38% from three), Ariel Hukporti, Ryan Kalkbrenner, Adem Bona, Joel Soriano, Quinton Post ( shot 43% from three while averaging around 2 blocks). Jamarion Sharpe ( 7'5 mobile, lanky center with a 7'8 wingspan in the Gobert mold).
22. Phoenix Suns Ryan Dunn, SF/PF, Virginia | Age: 21.4
Dunn is said to be gaining steam in this range of the draft after a slew of outstanding workouts this month propelled him firmly into the first round. Several teams have said Dunn exceeded expectations with his shooting while also doing some absolutely mesmerizing things defensively in guarding point guards through centers in group settings.
Chicago, Toronto and the New York Knicks are others that rival teams indicate could be high on him.
The Suns might look more to free agency to explore adding a point guard to their roster, with Kris Dunn (not related) one potential option that rival teams expect them to look at. Trading back to resupply their depleted stockpile of assets (especially future picks) is another option the Suns' front office is said to be considering, due to the severely limited mechanics the team has to add talent with the punitive new second-apron rules that go into effect this summer. -- Givony
