2021-22 Season/Offseason Speculation

[Saberestar]

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[Slim Charless]

Amick had an article in The Athletic - he talks to Jones
Sounds like an organization decision to not give the Max for 5 years
was willing to go 3 or 4 years

But one point was again made, if you sign Ayton to this deal. - you cannot trade for another player under the Rookie Max as you would have three players on the Rookie Max. And if Ayton signs his deal, he cannot be traded for six months, post trade deadlein

I do wonder if the Suns are going after Towns. Or keeping options to go after Towns

If they're not gonna pay Ayton, it's the only thing that makes sense.

DA, Cam, Saric for KAT and filler.

Our defense takes a massive step back but we'll score alot.

Doubt they would want Saric and he certainly wouldn't be happy.

Who cares if Saric is happy?

If KAT goes on the block I imagine that the Dubs will be at the front of the line with Wiseman and other stuff. If these cheap fools in our front office don't plan on paying DA, then they need to trade him now. Before this spills over and messes with our season. We have a small window here with CP3. They need to do something.

Sarver sucks.

[lilfishi22]

Someone said it above. Ayton is a max player only by the compatible value law. Who is ayton closer to in skillet, John Collins or Anthony Davis? I know that isn't how it works, he'll get the max from someone, but if we trade him for a KAT package, we win the trade.

I want ayton. But it's okay to make the kid prove it. We'll match whatever offer he gets and move on.

If we trade him for a KAT package, we lose big time defensively. Towns isn’t a good defender and he’s an even worse rim protector. He’s way better offensively than Ayton but he doesn’t compliment this team well with what we need at the C spot which is rim protection.

I hope they don’t trade him but if they do, then the only trades that make sense to me would be players like Capela, Turner, Allen etc. Even then I think Ayton is a better player than those guys and he’s younger too but at least unlike a Towns trade, those guys can all defend as well.

I don’t think Suns brass will trade away the first #1 overall pick that they’ve drafted in franchise history. But maybe I’ll be proven wrong.

Not gonna lie, if that trade was to be made, I would be excited. I get the defense would drop from where it is considering Ayton's sole focus has been on defense and rebounding whereas KAT's focus is more on offense but I think KAT's defense still has room to improve. I kind of think his defense is tied to motivation....and he's had nothing to play for since that one year they made the playoffs.

On the other end, I thik the offense would be off the charts. He's everything we hoped Ayton would be on offense and more. He can create off the dribble, he can finish inside, he's one of the best big man shooters of all time and he's a decent playmaker. What we give up in defense, I think there's opportunity to make up for on offense.

I really haven't thought about realistically trading Ayton because he's such a big part of this team but if something had to be done and it was for KAT...I'd be ecstatic.

[bwgood77]

I'm not even a big Ayton fan but it seems a bit dumb to not give him what he wants.

I just wonder if they are in talks to trade him --

I seriously doubt it. Not after a finals run and his defense against Jokic, etc. People mention Towns but Minny is pretty committed to him for now.

[bwgood77]

Sound disingenuous to me. James probably knows that Ayton and his rep will never accept a 3 year or 4 year max deal. So from a practical purpose, there was no real negotiation in the first place.

Saving the designated max in a potential trade scenario in the far off future when Chris Paul's contract is up, equally makes no sense at all. James can predict the free agency/trade market 3-4 years from now? LOL

I mean it's kind of silly to say you were open to offering it if you never offered it.

The scenario that the DPE thing could come into play is if it was Paul's contact going out in the trade for a DPE max guy. Not super likely but I guess I can see why the suns wouldn't want to completely shut that window.

Or maybe they are looking at a KAT deal. Because of how BYE trade rules work it's definitely easier to trade an unextended Ayton in that or any other deal.

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I don't think it is...you just merge the last year of rookie scale into his extension and take average for trade value so it would actually make him easier to trade. It's definitely harder to trade if we match an offer because he has to approve it.

I highly doubt we'd trade him after a championship run. Seems extremely silly. I would say Sarver-like but he hasn't even done anything that dumb.....yet.

Of course you can argue a trade for Towns if he wants out mid season makes us better but he has been extremely injury prone and hurts our defense. So it's a huge risk to break up a finals team. We get there an average of once ever 22.5 years or so.

But Sarver has been guilty of thinking once you have a great playoff team, that's the way it will be for the foreseeable future regardless of changes. And just like Kerr and D'Antoni, Jones and Monty have never had to deal with this type of thing before and Jones is basically on a rookie deal himself.

[lilfishi22]

Bobby Marks is on NBA radio right now and said if the Suns did offer DA a 4 year max, there's a chance he may have taken it.

Says one concern would be, if they max DA, then they have 2 guys under the designated max, meaning they can't trade for another one if they wanted to (like Simmons for example). I don't get that since the Nuggets have 3 max guys.

He mentioned that Phoenix likely wants him to prove it since giving a max to a 3rd or 4th option can be dangerous.


Personally, I think they'll be willing to offer it to him if he has at least the same year as last year. Any improvement and it's done.

Yeah man I consider myself pretty knowledgeable on the CBA/cap and the max player thing is confusing. The rule is you are only allowed 2 'max dedicated players' at a time. The 'dedicated' player thing is specifically about raises (30%) and escalators is the reach all NBA teams.

What causes the confusion is how 'max' contracts are reported. A guy can get the max amount but not the 'designated player' part. This is the case with that Porter contract in Denver.

If the disagreement with Ayton was about him demanding to get a real designated player max then honestly I can see why the suns didn't jump at that because it does limit some things they can do.

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Looking at the CBA breakdown, a team can have two (2) Designated Rookie max players and two (2) Designated veteran max players. Murry and MPJ are the two designated rookie players and I believe Jokic will be on the designated veteran max.

I only understand this thinking if we were already thinking/looking to trade for a youngish star on (or will be on) the designated rookie max. It doesn't impact trading for a designated veteran max guy.

[bwgood77]

I think his point is that Jones may have the longer term plans of the franchise in his mind.
If it's true that DA and his camp were 'never offered a 3 or 4 year max', it could mean Jones was of the mindset, "we couldn't offer it to them because they wouldn't pick up the phone if it didn't start with '5 year max'.
I'd still think we would have found a way to get that word to his agent though.
Someone is either lying or bending the truth to fit their narrative. One of the sides isn't telling us everything.

So if someone starts a negotiation with "We won't take less than the 5 year max?" you just give up and don't try to negotiate? Not a very good negotiator then...as we saw with the Shamet contract.

Jr.

I'm guessing that's not really exactly how it went and Jones has signed a lot of really good deals so far. And I would hold off 9n calling that Shamet deal a bad contract. Right now I don't see a really bad contract on the team can't say that about most franchises.

OK, well that's what the Athletic said. Jones stated "they were open to those deals" and the agents said "but they never communicated that" so it's what both sides said.

Anyway, I think the consensus is that Shamet was overpaid based on market value. People on the GB think it was a big overpay, most of who have watched him more than we have (due to Nets and Clips fans, but most of the GB watches league pass and as many teams' games as they can).

And 538 has his player projection value at a little less than $7 million. https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2022-nba-player-projections/landry-shamet/

I do like that the 3rd is not guaranteed and 4th is option but not as much as a lower per year.

FWIW about 538, they had Bridges at a little over $25 a year and Ayton actually at $24, so they were pretty right on Ayton not being worth the max, at least based on the Suns views and some of ours. I did think Bridges was better at his position but also felt Ayton would be paid more and has the ability to make a bigger impact, and certainly did in the playoffs.

I agree the other deals are decent. CP3 is a high dollar amount but I like the non guaranteed 3rd year even though it's still over a $15 million cap hit which is huge, and the team option.

Payne's is great despite only showing us 1 year of play. Many that only look at raw stats might still think its not a great deal or an overpay when he scores 8.4 ppg with 3.6 apg, but we were in desperate need of a PG, he has a great ast/to ratio and is our best 3pt shooter.

Bridges deal I think is solid..more than some thought he deserved and about what most thought...maybe a tad less.

[Slim Charless]

Someone said it above. Ayton is a max player only by the compatible value law. Who is ayton closer to in skillet, John Collins or Anthony Davis? I know that isn't how it works, he'll get the max from someone, but if we trade him for a KAT package, we win the trade.

I want ayton. But it's okay to make the kid prove it. We'll match whatever offer he gets and move on.

If we trade him for a KAT package, we lose big time defensively. Towns isn’t a good defender and he’s an even worse rim protector. He’s way better offensively than Ayton but he doesn’t compliment this team well with what we need at the C spot which is rim protection.

I hope they don’t trade him but if they do, then the only trades that make sense to me would be players like Capela, Turner, Allen etc. Even then I think Ayton is a better player than those guys and he’s younger too but at least unlike a Towns trade, those guys can all defend as well.

I don’t think Suns brass will trade away the first #1 overall pick that they’ve drafted in franchise history. But maybe I’ll be proven wrong.

Not gonna lie, if that trade was to be made, I would be excited. I get the defense would drop from where it is considering Ayton's sole focus has been on defense and rebounding whereas KAT's focus is more on offense but I think KAT's defense still has room to improve. I kind of think his defense is tied to motivation....and he's had nothing to play for since that one year they made the playoffs.

On the other end, I thik the offense would be off the charts. He's everything we hoped Ayton would be on offense and more. He can create off the dribble, he can finish inside, he's one of the best big man shooters of all time and he's a decent playmaker. What we give up in defense, I think there's opportunity to make up for on offense.

I really haven't thought about realistically trading Ayton because he's such a big part of this team but if something had to be done and it was for KAT...I'd be ecstatic.

I think it's the best value they could get. I looked at the numbers and doing that trade would also save Sarver about 12M off the cap. Which we know his cheap A$$ would love.

I'm surprised we haven't heard from CP3 or Book yet. They need to chime in and say that DA should've been paid.

[lilfishi22]

Would you guys be interested in trading Ayton/Smith for Wood/Kuminga/GSW22FRP?


CP3, Booker, Mikal, Kuminga, Wood -- Payne, Shamet, Crowder, Cam, Saric

yeah nah

[bwgood77]

Been saying Ayton for KAT for a very long time, really hope Minnesota stinks it up this year. I would love KAT on the Suns.

Completely random but it’s weird to me that Suns players are always out together and Ayton is never around. I’m sure they all get along very well, just don’t think Ayton is as close to everyone as people think.

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Might be because he has a wife and kid at home. I'd probably hang out with them instead if I had a wife and kid regardless of how close I am with others, but maybe you're right, and most would hang with buddies instead (if they were buddies).

CP3 has a wife and kinds too but obviously they are not in town, though I don't know if he hangs out with them either. Does Ayton not hang out with them on the road?

[bwgood77]

Would you guys be interested in trading Ayton/Smith for Wood/Kuminga/GSW22FRP?


CP3, Booker, Mikal, Kuminga, Wood -- Payne, Shamet, Crowder, Cam, Saric

I wouldn't but there are certainly a few here that would.

[bwgood77]

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Bad reasoning...that's a negotiation starting point. Negotiation 101.

[bwgood77]

If they're not gonna pay Ayton, it's the only thing that makes sense.

DA, Cam, Saric for KAT and filler.

Our defense takes a massive step back but we'll score alot.

Doubt they would want Saric and he certainly wouldn't be happy.

Who cares if Saric is happy?

If KAT goes on the block I imagine that the Dubs will be at the front of the line with Wiseman and other stuff. If these cheap fools in our front office don't plan on paying DA, then they need to trade him now. Before this spills over and messes with our season. We have a small window here with CP3. They need to do something.

Sarver sucks.

I agree about who cares, but I think Monty and Jones do.

[Slim Charless]

Been saying Ayton for KAT for a very long time, really hope Minnesota stinks it up this year. I would love KAT on the Suns.

Completely random but it’s weird to me that Suns players are always out together and Ayton is never around. I’m sure they all get along very well, just don’t think Ayton is as close to everyone as people think.

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Might be because he has a wife and kid at home. I'd probably hang out with them instead if I had a wife and kid regardless of how close I am with others, but maybe you're right, and most would hang with buddies instead (if they were buddies).

CP3 has a wife and kinds too but obviously they are not in town, though I don't know if he hangs out with them either. Does Ayton not hang out with them on the road?

Yeah, I don't blame DA for that. Maybe he doesn't want to hanging with Kardasians. You just know that Kloie or the mom would be trying to put the moves on him lol.

[bwgood77]

Bobby Marks is on NBA radio right now and said if the Suns did offer DA a 4 year max, there's a chance he may have taken it.

Says one concern would be, if they max DA, then they have 2 guys under the designated max, meaning they can't trade for another one if they wanted to (like Simmons for example). I don't get that since the Nuggets have 3 max guys.

He mentioned that Phoenix likely wants him to prove it since giving a max to a 3rd or 4th option can be dangerous.


Personally, I think they'll be willing to offer it to him if he has at least the same year as last year. Any improvement and it's done.

Yeah man I consider myself pretty knowledgeable on the CBA/cap and the max player thing is confusing. The rule is you are only allowed 2 'max dedicated players' at a time. The 'dedicated' player thing is specifically about raises (30%) and escalators is the reach all NBA teams.

What causes the confusion is how 'max' contracts are reported. A guy can get the max amount but not the 'designated player' part. This is the case with that Porter contract in Denver.

If the disagreement with Ayton was about him demanding to get a real designated player max then honestly I can see why the suns didn't jump at that because it does limit some things they can do.

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Looking at the CBA breakdown, a team can have two (2) Designated Rookie max players and two (2) Designated veteran max players. Murry and MPJ are the two designated rookie players and I believe Jokic will be on the designated veteran max.

I only understand this thinking if we were already thinking/looking to trade for a youngish star on (or will be on) the designated rookie max. It doesn't impact trading for a designated veteran max guy.

While you are right about the 2 and 2, Jokic is on his 2nd deal with (what you are referring to as rookie max) for two more years. This was his max deal signed after his rookie contract.

[bwgood77]

If we trade him for a KAT package, we lose big time defensively. Towns isn’t a good defender and he’s an even worse rim protector. He’s way better offensively than Ayton but he doesn’t compliment this team well with what we need at the C spot which is rim protection.

I hope they don’t trade him but if they do, then the only trades that make sense to me would be players like Capela, Turner, Allen etc. Even then I think Ayton is a better player than those guys and he’s younger too but at least unlike a Towns trade, those guys can all defend as well.

I don’t think Suns brass will trade away the first #1 overall pick that they’ve drafted in franchise history. But maybe I’ll be proven wrong.

Not gonna lie, if that trade was to be made, I would be excited. I get the defense would drop from where it is considering Ayton's sole focus has been on defense and rebounding whereas KAT's focus is more on offense but I think KAT's defense still has room to improve. I kind of think his defense is tied to motivation....and he's had nothing to play for since that one year they made the playoffs.

On the other end, I thik the offense would be off the charts. He's everything we hoped Ayton would be on offense and more. He can create off the dribble, he can finish inside, he's one of the best big man shooters of all time and he's a decent playmaker. What we give up in defense, I think there's opportunity to make up for on offense.

I really haven't thought about realistically trading Ayton because he's such a big part of this team but if something had to be done and it was for KAT...I'd be ecstatic.

I think it's the best value they could get. I looked at the numbers and doing that trade would also save Sarver about 12M off the cap. Which we know his cheap A$$ would love.

I'm surprised we haven't heard from CP3 or Book yet. They need to chime in and say that DA should've been paid.

That's rarely done. They don't get into each other's financial business...at least not often.

[WeekapaugGroove]

Meanwhile in Sacramento

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[lilfishi22]

Yeah man I consider myself pretty knowledgeable on the CBA/cap and the max player thing is confusing. The rule is you are only allowed 2 'max dedicated players' at a time. The 'dedicated' player thing is specifically about raises (30%) and escalators is the reach all NBA teams.

What causes the confusion is how 'max' contracts are reported. A guy can get the max amount but not the 'designated player' part. This is the case with that Porter contract in Denver.

If the disagreement with Ayton was about him demanding to get a real designated player max then honestly I can see why the suns didn't jump at that because it does limit some things they can do.

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Looking at the CBA breakdown, a team can have two (2) Designated Rookie max players and two (2) Designated veteran max players. Murry and MPJ are the two designated rookie players and I believe Jokic will be on the designated veteran max.

I only understand this thinking if we were already thinking/looking to trade for a youngish star on (or will be on) the designated rookie max. It doesn't impact trading for a designated veteran max guy.

While you are right about the 2 and 2, Jokic is on his 2nd deal with (what you are referring to as rookie max) for two more years. This was his max deal signed after his rookie contract.

Could be wrong but I believe Jokic is eligible for a new deal next offseason so he'll be on the veteran super max when MPJ's designated rookie max kicks in. Technically MPJ isn't on the max yet, he's still on his rookie scale contract until next season. So right now, they have 2 designated rookie maxes (Jokic/Murry) and at the start of the 22-23 season the Nuggets would have 2 designated rookie maxes (Murry/MPJ) and one designated veteran max (Jokic). It's the only way I could see it working within the rules.

[bwgood77]

Looking at the CBA breakdown, a team can have two (2) Designated Rookie max players and two (2) Designated veteran max players. Murry and MPJ are the two designated rookie players and I believe Jokic will be on the designated veteran max.

I only understand this thinking if we were already thinking/looking to trade for a youngish star on (or will be on) the designated rookie max. It doesn't impact trading for a designated veteran max guy.

While you are right about the 2 and 2, Jokic is on his 2nd deal with (what you are referring to as rookie max) for two more years. This was his max deal signed after his rookie contract.

Could be wrong but I believe Jokic is eligible for a new deal next offseason so he'll be on the veteran super max when MPJ's designated rookie max kicks in. Technically MPJ isn't on the max yet, he's still on his rookie scale contract until next season. So right now, they have 2 designated rookie maxes (Jokic/Murry) and at the start of the 22-23 season the Nuggets would have 2 designated rookie maxes (Murry/MPJ) and one designated veteran max (Jokic). It's the only way I could see it working within the rules.

Eligible for supermax extension but he will still be on current deal next year when Porter is. I looked at this before responding.

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/denver-nuggets/nikola-jokic-15393/

[lilfishi22]

Meanwhile in Sacramento

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Well thanks to Simmons and Kings/Bagley, Suns and Ayton was only national news for a hot second.