Trade & Free Agency Ideas & Discussion 2

[Damkac]

thank god

You're at least the third person to reply to those tweets with "Thank God"

Yea there should be a thank god button near and one

And also "no no noooooooooooooooooo!" button

I'm not opposed to trading Bledsoe for Rubio + pick. Also not opposed to trading Barbosa for Beverley. I think Bledsoe don't fit with this team. And I'm scared of his next contract. Trading him would be the best option. Losing him for nothing would be dumb but giving him and his broken knees a big contract is even dumber.

[WeekapaugGroove]

Kyrie and booker would have been fun but also potentially the worst defensive backcourt in history. Now just how much defense matters for guards in todays NBA is debatable.

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[jcsunsfan]

Man. These deals that did not happen are downright scary. Just frightening. I am not sure I would trade Jackson for Kyrie straight up at the moment. Its not about which player is more valuable. Its about what player fits with us right now. Yikes.

[bwgood77]

I think this may have been posted earlier, but a good write up on Jackson. Very detailed with a lot of research. Click link for full write up...here is a tidbit.

Outcome Range/Player Comparison:

Floor Outcome: Michael Kidd-Gilchrist who can dribble and pass

Median Outcome: Variation of Oladipo on offense + Michael Kidd-Gilchrist on Defense

Ceiling Outcome: Iteration of Iguodala/Howard Combination on Offense (Sub-Elite Non-Iguodala Defense)

Ranking Justification: Jackson is the best two-way true wing bet in the draft (if you designate Isaac a 4), as he already has advanced feel and playmaking for others prowess not often found in players with his athleticism. There is a lot to work with as a foundation, and Jackson has that blue-collar motor and edge on the court.

But the reality that Jackson reaches this legitimate two-way status is bleaker than most consensus mock drafts and big boards suggest. If Jackson was a generationally elite defender that would be one thing. As is the case often, Ben Rubin got to this realization early, but going back over Jackson’s tape it’s evident he is probably not going to be a truly elite stopper (or even team defender). He lacks the elite length, strong core strength/build foundation and elite reactionary first step to be an Andre Iguodala type, and to take him in the top 5 (or especially top 3) he needs to have avenues to be that guy given his offensive shortcomings. He’s likely going to be a plus wing defender in the league who also provides playmaking, a combination not easily found. But the question is how much will that matter?

Jackson just lacks the first step and off the dribble shooting fluidity to be a primary wing scorer, especially when defenders are playing a foot and a half more off him to incentive his pull-up shot. He’s also not a surefire average spacing threat off ball, especially above the break who will demand gravity. Jackson is a fantastic cutter and can eat up space off the dribble in big spaces if he’s left unguarded (unlike a Tony Allen type), but that kind of player has a distinct offensive ceiling.

https://capstrategist.com/2017/06/20/2017-draft-big-board-tiers-1-and-2/#more-11997

[thamadkant]

Jackson's short comings are only a worry if you think he will not improve them. The only way he doesnt improve them is the Suns staff let him rest on his laurels and be complacent.


The good thing is... Jackson has a very competitive nature and if you challenge him to get better he is likely to respond positively. Suns also have shown some sort of ability to develop players aka Booker and Warren. But ultimately on court playing time is the quickest way to develop a player... Players get to compete against others and they understand first hand where they are and what needs to change.


Also that write up saying Jackson lacks the length of Iguadala.... Well Iguadala has 6'11 wingspan... And Jackson has 6'10.... I call that a wash. The thing is Iguadala is 6'5 without shoes on.... Jackson is 6'6.5 without shoes on.
Everything else is very close...
Now of they compare Jackson to Pippen or Kawhi who are both 6'7/6'8 with shoes on... Then they will have a better argument since both have 7'3 wingspans which is ridiculous for their height.

[BobbieL]

Man. These deals that did not happen are downright scary. Just frightening. I am not sure I would trade Jackson for Kyrie straight up at the moment. Its not about which player is more valuable. Its about what player fits with us right now. Yikes.

Right, when your best player is Booker - or a key figure, the last thing you need is a shoot first PG who doesn't help set him up. Curry can shoot but he also sets up Klay Thompson.

So, I am not enamored with Rubio but if he can be a PG that sets up his teammates better than Bledsoe - might be worth looking into.

So, based on what I have been hearing, I am totally okay not getting any of these trades and having to "settle" for Josh Jackson

Woj is soon to be at ESPN (I think I also read that's why Marc Stein is gone, they didn't like each other) - but anyway, need some Wojbombs

[gaspar]

The reason why I don't like Rubio is we really need the ball to be in Booker's hand most of the time. We need a Derrick Fisher or BJ Armstrong type of PG. Somebody who can play defense and hit the three ball plus be the secondary facilitator and ball handler. If Jackson is as good a passer as he seems to be having a pure passing PG like Rubio is not really what we need. Defense, three point point shooting and then ball handling/passing.

Well with Rubio what you get is a guy that doesn't dominate the ball. He moves it and gets it to the right guy at the right time. His usage was only 17% compared to Bledsoe's 28%.

You don't really want the ball in Booker's hands too much more as a primary ball handler because we need to get other guys involved. And while at times he showed he is a capable passer, he still averaged 3.1 turnovers per game compared to 3.4 assists. You try to play like Kobe or Melo in this day and age it doesn't work with all the great ball movement and open looks teams like the Warriors, Spurs and Rockets get....and Clips when they are healthy.

I don't think you understand what usage rate stat means. Rubio absolutely dominates the ball. Only 5 players in the league held the ball in their hands more than Rubio last year (7.5 min per game): Westbrook, Wall, Harden, Kemba and Lillard. Bledsoe was 10th at 6.7 min.

Oh, and BTW, Ricky Rubio **** sucks!

[Fo-Real]

The reason why I don't like Rubio is we really need the ball to be in Booker's hand most of the time. We need a Derrick Fisher or BJ Armstrong type of PG. Somebody who can play defense and hit the three ball plus be the secondary facilitator and ball handler. If Jackson is as good a passer as he seems to be having a pure passing PG like Rubio is not really what we need. Defense, three point point shooting and then ball handling/passing.

Well with Rubio what you get is a guy that doesn't dominate the ball. He moves it and gets it to the right guy at the right time. His usage was only 17% compared to Bledsoe's 28%.

You don't really want the ball in Booker's hands too much more as a primary ball handler because we need to get other guys involved. And while at times he showed he is a capable passer, he still averaged 3.1 turnovers per game compared to 3.4 assists. You try to play like Kobe or Melo in this day and age it doesn't work with all the great ball movement and open looks teams like the Warriors, Spurs and Rockets get....and Clips when they are healthy.

I don't think you understand what usage rate stat means. Rubio absolutely dominates the ball. Only 5 players in the league held the ball in their hands more than Rubio last year (7.5 min per game): Westbrook, Wall, Harden, Kemba and Lillard. Bledsoe was 10th at 6.7 min.

Oh, and BTW, Ricky Rubio **** sucks!

Yes, and if he were so good at running the team, getting the young guys shots and overall good for his team, then that YOUNG talented Wolves team should be pushing for him to do that for them. Instead, they have been trying to replace him and thinking about trading him every year it seems.

[bwgood77]

The reason why I don't like Rubio is we really need the ball to be in Booker's hand most of the time. We need a Derrick Fisher or BJ Armstrong type of PG. Somebody who can play defense and hit the three ball plus be the secondary facilitator and ball handler. If Jackson is as good a passer as he seems to be having a pure passing PG like Rubio is not really what we need. Defense, three point point shooting and then ball handling/passing.

Well with Rubio what you get is a guy that doesn't dominate the ball. He moves it and gets it to the right guy at the right time. His usage was only 17% compared to Bledsoe's 28%.

You don't really want the ball in Booker's hands too much more as a primary ball handler because we need to get other guys involved. And while at times he showed he is a capable passer, he still averaged 3.1 turnovers per game compared to 3.4 assists. You try to play like Kobe or Melo in this day and age it doesn't work with all the great ball movement and open looks teams like the Warriors, Spurs and Rockets get....and Clips when they are healthy.

I don't think you understand what usage rate stat means. Rubio absolutely dominates the ball. Only 5 players in the league held the ball in their hands more than Rubio last year (7.5 min per game): Westbrook, Wall, Harden, Kemba and Lillard. Bledsoe was 10th at 6.7 min.

I'm not talking time of possession. Is that what you thought usage meant? I'm talking rate of you ending the possession with a shot (or getting to the line because a shot) or turning it over. Rubio more often gets it in other people's hands and facilitates more. I don't necessarily want Rubio but I think he'd definitely do a better job in getting more people involved while turning it over and shooting it himself far less.

[Puff]

I've always been a little torn on Rubio. Love his d and passing but you really need shooters around him.

I guess if they have predetermined they wont extend Bledsoe and Rubio and a 1st rounder is on the table then sure I'd be down with that.

If they were set on trading bledsoe id rather they use him to upgtade at center or get a package of picks thwn simply sign a new point guard like George hill or teague if you could get a reasonable deal done. Or hell just roll ulis and knight for a year.

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George Hill might be the perfect type of vet PG to go after but I think he wants to stay in Utah, but that does depend on Hayward. I saw some speculation as to what type of contract he would command though and it was much higher than I anticipated.

I can understand the concern over Rubio but Thibodeau is not exactly an offensive genius.

I think this trade makes a lot of sense. A change of scenery could do wonders for both of them.

We just drafted a small forward that is willing to share the ball, Booker has shown he is a willing passer I have also seen some good signs form Chriss, Bender and even Len. Rubio could be the leader we need. I think Ulis gave us a hint that we are capable of sharing the ball with the correct leadership. This the way this team needs to play going forward whoever our point guards are.

Bledsoe is due 29.5 Mil over the next 2 years

Rubio is due 29.0 Mil and is a year younger.

If Minnesota would do an even up trade for (no Knees) I would seriously consider it. If we could get a first rounder in the deal it is a no brainer, IMO.

[blee732]

Rubio had a relatively high Time of Possession even before Thibs. It's possible Thibs' offense made it worse, but Rubio already had a tendency to hold onto the ball.

I think people have conflated Rubio's ability to make stunning passes with an ability to run an offense. I don't think he's bad, but I don't think it's clear he'd be better for us than Bled.

Our real problem is the offense we run (basically just iso and pick-and-roll), not who we have at PG.

[JJ13]

Knight just posted Instagram of him in Time Square...just saying



Bledsoe, Warren, Knight, Bender, picks for Porzingis, Noah

[Zelaznyrules]

The reason why I don't like Rubio is we really need the ball to be in Booker's hand most of the time. We need a Derrick Fisher or BJ Armstrong type of PG. Somebody who can play defense and hit the three ball plus be the secondary facilitator and ball handler. If Jackson is as good a passer as he seems to be having a pure passing PG like Rubio is not really what we need. Defense, three point point shooting and then ball handling/passing.

You described Beverley there and I agree. Houston wants to trade him I think and we should try to bring him.

I think this might be the case of seeing a player every game vs seeing him every now and then? Every time I watch Houston play, I think they got lucky finding a player like Beverley. But every time I turn around, they are rumored to either be replacing him or trading him outright. IOW, I'd be very cautious pursuing him. I'm sure someone will post the obvious annual Bledsoe rumors but those are clearly generated away from the team, that doesn't appear to be the case with Beverley. Still, at the right price, I'd be interested in him as a backup as long as it isn't locker room issues that's fueling the rumors (not that I've heard anything).

[bwgood77]

Rubio had a relatively high Time of Possession even before Thibs. It's possible Thibs' offense made it worse, but Rubio already had a tendency to hold onto the ball.

I think people have conflated Rubio's ability to make stunning passes with an ability to run an offense. I don't think he's bad, but I don't think it's clear he'd be better for us than Bled.

Our real problem is the offense we run (basically just iso and pick-and-roll), not who we have at PG.

The main point is just looking for trade options for Bledsoe while he still has relatively high trade value. So if we could make the trade and get a pick then it might be worth it. But it looks like the Hawks own next year's and it's lotto protected so it would have to be a pick quite a ways in the future, so it probably doesn't make sense.

I don't know that he makes us better but he is a better playmaker and has a far better ast/to ratio at 3.5, which is third best for a PG behind Paul and Ish Smith. Others likely get more shots and he would shoot far less than Bledsoe.

He also has a higher RPM (9th in PGs as opposed to Bled's 15th).

But I don't think there is a trade there anyway. I can't really see Bledsoe being the type of guy they'd be after and I don't think we'd want to do that swap. At least Bled's a part of the team so if you're not getting someone you view here long term it might not make sense. I think they'd rather start Ulis anyway then us some sort of stop gap vet.

[bwgood77]

The reason why I don't like Rubio is we really need the ball to be in Booker's hand most of the time. We need a Derrick Fisher or BJ Armstrong type of PG. Somebody who can play defense and hit the three ball plus be the secondary facilitator and ball handler. If Jackson is as good a passer as he seems to be having a pure passing PG like Rubio is not really what we need. Defense, three point point shooting and then ball handling/passing.

You described Beverley there and I agree. Houston wants to trade him I think and we should try to bring him.

I think this might be the case of seeing a player every game vs seeing him every now and then? Every time I watch Houston play, I think they got lucky finding a player like Beverley. But every time I turn around, they are rumored to either be replacing him or trading him outright. IOW, I'd be very cautious pursuing him. I'm sure someone will post the obvious annual Bledsoe rumors but those are clearly generated away from the team, that doesn't appear to be the case with Beverley. Still, at the right price, I'd be interested in him as a backup as long as it isn't locker room issues that's fueling the rumors (not that I've heard anything).

I think Beverley would be perfect here because he can shoot 42% from 3 and play good defense. Especially for those who want to see Book and JJ do more facilitating...but maybe as a backup for Ulis if they wanted to let him run the show. I think they mostly just want to move him to clear space for a run at Paul.

[BobbieL]

Knight just posted Instagram of him in Time Square...just saying



Bledsoe, Warren, Knight, Bender, picks for Porzingis, Noah

I wish he would have posted a photo from Brooklyn - but its close enough

[AtheJ415]

Again with Rubio? Really? When will people realize he is not the answer. He has not won in MN, and despite having a bunch of young talent they don't want to keep him and have been shopping him for years. His lack of shooting kills him and his team, and getting our guys used to playing with someone like him is arguably counterproductive to their long-term growth. If you want a pass first PG just trade Bledsoe and start Ulis.

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There is a major difference between "wanting a pass first PG" and just starting Ulis and going after one of the leagues best playmakers and top defenders at the PG position. Major difference.

Yes, the difference is one fits our age group and therefore getting time with him could actually help us, while the other plays an unusual style that is not likely to be replaced whenever he leaves the team, thus being counterproductive. Also, I think you're confusing passing with playmaking, because a lot of playmakers can hit the broad side of a barn with a rocket launcher. Rubio can't. Thus his unimpressive offensive numbers.

[jredsaz]

I think if you move Bledsoe you want to get youth and/or pick(s). I would rather have received Mudiay and #13 than Rubio and a future first. Although I doubt I would have took that either with Collins and Monk off the board.

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[Puff]

You described Beverley there and I agree. Houston wants to trade him I think and we should try to bring him.

I think this might be the case of seeing a player every game vs seeing him every now and then? Every time I watch Houston play, I think they got lucky finding a player like Beverley. But every time I turn around, they are rumored to either be replacing him or trading him outright. IOW, I'd be very cautious pursuing him. I'm sure someone will post the obvious annual Bledsoe rumors but those are clearly generated away from the team, that doesn't appear to be the case with Beverley. Still, at the right price, I'd be interested in him as a backup as long as it isn't locker room issues that's fueling the rumors (not that I've heard anything).

I think Beverley would be perfect here because he can shoot 42% from 3 and play good defense. Especially for those who want to see Book and JJ do more facilitating...but maybe as a backup for Ulis if they wanted to let him run the show. I think they mostly just want to move him to clear space for a run at Paul.

I have no idea why the Rockets want to trade that guy to make room for Chris Paul by trading Beverly. Ist team all NBA defense at @ $5mil per year.

D'Antoni seemed to love him and he flourished in Mike's offense. I really question how a Harden/Paul back court would work out. I see a train wreck. I got to believe this is Morey's idea. They could use Blake Griffin more than Chris Paul IMO.

However if they want to dump him I am all in on trading LB for him. I would think that means Bledsoe is out of here. The question is for what.

[bigfoot]

I think this might be the case of seeing a player every game vs seeing him every now and then? Every time I watch Houston play, I think they got lucky finding a player like Beverley. But every time I turn around, they are rumored to either be replacing him or trading him outright. IOW, I'd be very cautious pursuing him. I'm sure someone will post the obvious annual Bledsoe rumors but those are clearly generated away from the team, that doesn't appear to be the case with Beverley. Still, at the right price, I'd be interested in him as a backup as long as it isn't locker room issues that's fueling the rumors (not that I've heard anything).

I think Beverley would be perfect here because he can shoot 42% from 3 and play good defense. Especially for those who want to see Book and JJ do more facilitating...but maybe as a backup for Ulis if they wanted to let him run the show. I think they mostly just want to move him to clear space for a run at Paul.

I have no idea why the Rockets want to trade that guy to make room for Chris Paul by trading Beverly. Ist team all NBA defense at @ $5mil per year.

D'Antoni seemed to love him and he flourished in Mike's offense. I really question how a Harden/Paul back court would work out. I see a train wreck. I got to believe this is Morey's idea. They could use Blake Griffin more than Chris Paul IMO.

However if they want to dump him I am all in on trading LB for him. I would think that means Bledsoe is out of here. The question is for what.

Yeah D'Antoni could really make some impressive offensive sets with Griffin and Harden. Definitely gives them a true half court option like Amare/Nash. Griffin is a much better fit than Paul but would have to commit to playing the 5.