Season Speculation, Trade Ideas & Discussion Pt. 1

[Frank Lee]

Personally i have a hard time trading Bledsoe straight up for Kyrie but if you throw in an Unprotected pick it isnt worth it. Kyrie does one thing and that is score period. he isnt a passer, defender or a player that makes others better. There is no reason to ever think of parting with unprotected pick for that type of player.

"...and again, really, just to aid us towards getting back on the winning track, then attracting more stars."

So like I've stated multiple times; this isn't about Kyrie, the better basketball player. It's about Kyrie, "USA Basketball" player and Star player who can attract others to come to the Suns. Again, as I've said, sure, Booker is nice. Now, let's start Kyrie AND Booker, and now maybe other stars are interested in what we are building down here in the the VotS.

For example, (and I already know how this is going to blow up in my face, but I'll venture it anyway) right now, would you trade Warren and an Unprotected 1st for Wiggins? I bet some on here might. Why? Is it because Wiggins is actually that much BETTER than Warren? Actually, no he isn't, but his name is, so...

I am actually with you in believing that Kyrie does not bring an 'Unprotected 1st' worth of talent with him over Bledsoe, but he's 2 years younger, and has a bigger name. That's it. That really is the only reason I would go after Kyrie with Bledsoe; he doesn't bring a whole heck of a lot of wins with him, IMO. Just a chance to attract more talent.

Can't a guy honestly and reasonably prefer to watch Ulis, Booker and Jackson try to carry a team and continuing to develop organically, through them and the other young guys and the future picks?

I don't want to watch Kyrie Irving play basketball here. Just don't. So... yeah!

Irving doesn't guarantee any more wins. And nothing says (but you) he attracts more stars. These are blowupinyoface assumptions for if neither works then you've just set yourself back.

I'd just stick with Bled and see what happens. Give Ulis 15-20 mins a night, keep Bledsoe fresh and just carry on. The chances to really improve passed by early on this off season. Now its just get into camp time, establish some credibility, order, and a strategy/style if possible.

Then win more games than expected.

Bledsoe will remain an asset if he stays healthy. And Im with Coz... I have little interest in a larger dose of ISO.

[Frank Lee]

Uh oh.... did I just contradict battleship USS Navldo ??

[NavLDO]

Personally i have a hard time trading Bledsoe straight up for Kyrie but if you throw in an Unprotected pick it isnt worth it. Kyrie does one thing and that is score period. he isnt a passer, defender or a player that makes others better. There is no reason to ever think of parting with unprotected pick for that type of player.

"...and again, really, just to aid us towards getting back on the winning track, then attracting more stars."

So like I've stated multiple times; this isn't about Kyrie, the better basketball player. It's about Kyrie, "USA Basketball" player and Star player who can attract others to come to the Suns. Again, as I've said, sure, Booker is nice. Now, let's start Kyrie AND Booker, and now maybe other stars are interested in what we are building down here in the the VotS.

For example, (and I already know how this is going to blow up in my face, but I'll venture it anyway) right now, would you trade Warren and an Unprotected 1st for Wiggins? I bet some on here might. Why? Is it because Wiggins is actually that much BETTER than Warren? Actually, no he isn't, but his name is, so...

I am actually with you in believing that Kyrie does not bring an 'Unprotected 1st' worth of talent with him over Bledsoe, but he's 2 years younger, and has a bigger name. That's it. That really is the only reason I would go after Kyrie with Bledsoe; he doesn't bring a whole heck of a lot of wins with him, IMO. Just a chance to attract more talent.

Can't a guy honestly and reasonably prefer to watch Ulis, Booker and Jackson try to carry a team and continuing to develop organically, through them and the other young guys and the future picks?

I don't want to watch Kyrie Irving play basketball here. Just don't. So... yeah!

Absolutely! I'm perfectly fine with others not wanting Kyrie here, and wanting to develop players organically. Problem is, how exactly do you plan to develop Len, Warren, Booker, Bender, Chriss, Ulis, Jackson, Reed, and 2 x 2018 picks?

I know the answer, but no one is fessing up to it, is the problem...Len already isn't shiny, Warren is losing his luster real fast, and shoot, Bender and Chriss are already busts...can't wait to see what happens when Jackson is simply mediocre, at best, this year offensively, and Ayton, Bagley, Williams, or Bamba--whoever we pick in '18-- isn't a superstar within 2 years...

But hey, let's stretch this rebuild out to a dozen years...

[collidingNeurons]

"...and again, really, just to aid us towards getting back on the winning track, then attracting more stars."

So like I've stated multiple times; this isn't about Kyrie, the better basketball player. It's about Kyrie, "USA Basketball" player and Star player who can attract others to come to the Suns. Again, as I've said, sure, Booker is nice. Now, let's start Kyrie AND Booker, and now maybe other stars are interested in what we are building down here in the the VotS.

For example, (and I already know how this is going to blow up in my face, but I'll venture it anyway) right now, would you trade Warren and an Unprotected 1st for Wiggins? I bet some on here might. Why? Is it because Wiggins is actually that much BETTER than Warren? Actually, no he isn't, but his name is, so...

I am actually with you in believing that Kyrie does not bring an 'Unprotected 1st' worth of talent with him over Bledsoe, but he's 2 years younger, and has a bigger name. That's it. That really is the only reason I would go after Kyrie with Bledsoe; he doesn't bring a whole heck of a lot of wins with him, IMO. Just a chance to attract more talent.

Can't a guy honestly and reasonably prefer to watch Ulis, Booker and Jackson try to carry a team and continuing to develop organically, through them and the other young guys and the future picks?

I don't want to watch Kyrie Irving play basketball here. Just don't. So... yeah!

Absolutely! I'm perfectly fine with others not wanting Kyrie here, and wanting to develop players organically. Problem is, how exactly do you plan to develop Len, Warren, Booker, Bender, Chriss, Ulis, Jackson, Reed, and 2 x 2018 picks?

I know the answer, but no one is fessing up to it, is the problem...Len already isn't shiny, Warren is losing his luster real fast, and shoot, Bender and Chriss are already busts...can't wait to see what happens when Jackson is simply mediocre, at best, this year offensively, and Ayton, Bagley, Williams, or Bamba--whoever we pick in '18-- isn't a superstar within 2 years...

But hey, let's stretch this rebuild out to a dozen years...

at some point you have to consolidate. However it's too early to even know who you have at this point with the kids, one was an 18 year old rookie that was injured most of last year, one was a 19 year old rookie, one hasn't even played yet. Warren finally started and played significant minutes last year and Len is probably just not that good. I am not in favor of tanking for ever, but the FO has obviously decided to let these guys play another year and then see what we have at least to this point... after next year i am in favor or looking for trades and free agents, think it was just a year too early this year

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

"...and again, really, just to aid us towards getting back on the winning track, then attracting more stars."

So like I've stated multiple times; this isn't about Kyrie, the better basketball player. It's about Kyrie, "USA Basketball" player and Star player who can attract others to come to the Suns. Again, as I've said, sure, Booker is nice. Now, let's start Kyrie AND Booker, and now maybe other stars are interested in what we are building down here in the the VotS.

For example, (and I already know how this is going to blow up in my face, but I'll venture it anyway) right now, would you trade Warren and an Unprotected 1st for Wiggins? I bet some on here might. Why? Is it because Wiggins is actually that much BETTER than Warren? Actually, no he isn't, but his name is, so...

I am actually with you in believing that Kyrie does not bring an 'Unprotected 1st' worth of talent with him over Bledsoe, but he's 2 years younger, and has a bigger name. That's it. That really is the only reason I would go after Kyrie with Bledsoe; he doesn't bring a whole heck of a lot of wins with him, IMO. Just a chance to attract more talent.

Can't a guy honestly and reasonably prefer to watch Ulis, Booker and Jackson try to carry a team and continuing to develop organically, through them and the other young guys and the future picks?

I don't want to watch Kyrie Irving play basketball here. Just don't. So... yeah!

Absolutely! I'm perfectly fine with others not wanting Kyrie here, and wanting to develop players organically. Problem is, how exactly do you plan to develop Len, Warren, Booker, Bender, Chriss, Ulis, Jackson, Reed, and 2 x 2018 picks?

I know the answer, but no one is fessing up to it, is the problem...Len already isn't shiny, Warren is losing his luster real fast, and shoot, Bender and Chriss are already busts...can't wait to see what happens when Jackson is simply mediocre, at best, this year offensively, and Ayton, Bagley, Williams, or Bamba--whoever we pick in '18-- isn't a superstar within 2 years...

But hey, let's stretch this rebuild out to a dozen years...

I'm starting to suspect that your solution is to step into a time machine of some sort. I am apparently significantly more optimistic about our young players and the players we may draft. But I don't really understand what everyone's arguing about all of a sudden, including myself. Cheers.

[Waylay13]

Bledsoe/Dudley/Suns' Unprotected 2018...for...Kyrie/Shumpert.

Personally i have a hard time trading Bledsoe straight up for Kyrie but if you throw in an Unprotected pick it isnt worth it. Kyrie does one thing and that is score period. he isnt a passer, defender or a player that makes others better. There is no reason to ever think of parting with unprotected pick for that type of player.

"...and again, really, just to aid us towards getting back on the winning track, then attracting more stars."

Who wants to play with a point guard that doesnt pass the ball? Steve Nash attracted stars, Charles Barkley attracted stars, Lebron James and the #1 passing team attracts star to come play with them. a point guard who doesnt pass and wants to be the center of the doesnt attract jack.

[NavLDO]

Uh oh.... did I just contradict battleship USS Navldo ??

Oh, please, stop. There's a difference between my 'opinion', and times when those that are here that try to state opinion as fact, which I do not believe I did. In fact, please go to the link below:

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=1606694&start=80#start_here

When I make a bold statement, and someone calls me out on it, I'm more than willing to to admit that I very well might be wrong, or that I simply am wrong.

Again, the only time I get 'heated', is when someone states and opinion as fact, they are proven wrong, and then refuse to admit that they might be wrong...

I have no problem admitting I am wrong...I've been married for over 20 years...I'm used to it...

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

Keeping and playing Bledsoe isn't a bad idea at all. I bet JJ makes him better. And JJ is going to play a TON this year, make no mistake about it. He might just be the closest to a complete player we have.

[NavLDO]

Can't a guy honestly and reasonably prefer to watch Ulis, Booker and Jackson try to carry a team and continuing to develop organically, through them and the other young guys and the future picks?

I don't want to watch Kyrie Irving play basketball here. Just don't. So... yeah!

Absolutely! I'm perfectly fine with others not wanting Kyrie here, and wanting to develop players organically. Problem is, how exactly do you plan to develop Len, Warren, Booker, Bender, Chriss, Ulis, Jackson, Reed, and 2 x 2018 picks?

I know the answer, but no one is fessing up to it, is the problem...Len already isn't shiny, Warren is losing his luster real fast, and shoot, Bender and Chriss are already busts...can't wait to see what happens when Jackson is simply mediocre, at best, this year offensively, and Ayton, Bagley, Williams, or Bamba--whoever we pick in '18-- isn't a superstar within 2 years...

But hey, let's stretch this rebuild out to a dozen years...

I'm starting to suspect that your solution is to step into a time machine of some sort. I am apparently significantly more optimistic about our young players and the players we may draft. But I don't really understand what everyone's arguing about all of a sudden, including myself. Cheers.

Ha ha!! Not arguing, just venting frustration, is all. I'm saying that we were optimistic about Len...until, we weren't. Then Warren, until, again, he wasn't new and shiny anymore, so literally, half the board is in favor of starting Jackson over Warren, and that really isn't an overstatement on my part, I don't believe. I've read from quite a few that Warren should be our '6th man'...Why? Because we drafted Jackson and he's proven to be a better player already? I'm sorry, but Warren has earned the SF starting spot, and if not, then he should start at the 4. Either way, RIGHT NOW, he's better than Chriss, Bender, or yes, even the new shiny Jackson.

This has nothing to do with me not being optimistic about our rookies; but I am being realistic as well, and the fact is, Jackson is not very good offensively, and shouldn't expect to be right out of the gate. Doesn't mean he can't be eventually, but anyone who thinks he' going to come in, start at SF, play 30 minutes a night, and average 18 pts / 6 TRBs / 3 Assts on 38% from 3, and supplant Warren are in for a rude awakening. And if our HC actually starts Jackson over Warren for any reason other than injury, then he should be fired. Warren has gotten screwed over by Horny, already, and injury...those are the reasons for his relative slow development, NOT due to his abilities. He was shooting 40% from 3 that year. He shot over 46% (11 of 24) between his first 8 and last 8 games of the season last year...everything between (his 'slump') was the issue. He's statistically better than Wiggins.

Anyway, Cosmo, I'm not arguing with you, per se...it's really the..."'no, we need to collect another two lottery picks next season, so then we can have Ulis, Booker, Jackson, Chriss, Bender, Reed, Warren, Ayton, Bamba, Sauce, start them all, play them 30 minutes each and Tank again, so we can get another top 5 pick in 2019!! Rock on!!! Wooooooo!!!..."

OK, I'm exaggerating, but you get my point...

[Frank Lee]

Somewhere someone posted a comment by D'Antoni that he would turn Jackson into a point guard or point forward or??? I'm down for that… If Jackson can D up on point guards that's where I want him in the future. A Booker Jackson back court is very appealing to me.... no slight to Bled.

[cberry78]

Somewhere someone posted a comment by D'Antoni that he would turn Jackson into a point guard or point forward or??? I'm down for that… If Jackson can D up on point guards that's where I want him in the future. A Booker Jackson back court is very appealing to me.... no slight to Bled.

The idea actually goes back to before the draft: http://www2.kusports.com/news/2017/jan/04/tom-keegan-no-reason-point-guard-not-josh-jacksons/

And maybe in two years when Bledsoe's contract is up, we just run the Offense through JJ/Bender/Booker and spurn the traditional PG role.

[Kerrsed]

Jackson/Booker/Warren/Chriss/Bender


That line-up could be kinda interesting.

[Walt_Uoob]

Yeah if Jackson can be a PG it really solves a couple minor issues: 1) we can trade Bled if desired even for just draft picks and salary filler without blowing a hole in the lineup at PG, and 2) we can stop worrying about Jackson/Warren playing the same position (though I don't think most of us are very worried about it).

[cberry78]

Jackson/Booker/Warren/Chriss/Bender


That line-up could be kinda interesting.

Don't forget about 2018 First Round Pick(s)

[DirtyDez]

Lol. Forward thru & thru.

[AtheJ415]

Anybody claiming Bender and Chriss are busts needs to go back and look at other 18 year old's numbers like Kobe, or hell, just rookie numbers of certain stars like Jimmy Butler. Nobody knows anything regarding them as of yet. Hell, I don't see how anybody could reasonably say that Chriss wasn't better than expected as a rookie.

[AtheJ415]

I also don't mind keeping Bled. I would lean towards dealing him due to age and what I think will be a 25-30 million/year deal in 2 seasons, but if he can stay healthy and continue to improve it is worthwhile. That said, I'd still trade him if we could get a couple of decent picks or somebody who is 18-20 with high upside at the PG spot.

[AtheJ415]

I love Smart as a player...he's better than what Fox was coming out on both sides of the ball....better 3 pt shooter, but quite a bit better defender. The problem is that you just can't have offensive liabilities on the floor much anymore. Since IT was insane offensively for them it worked and would probably work either Kyrie. Our offensive efficiency is already so bad it would only get worse with him, but of course with improved defense. I'd pass.

I wouldn't say he's better than Fox offensively. His shooting numbers are worse than Fox's in college overall (TS and EFG). And with Fox you know he can get to the hoop at the NBA level due to his speed, which is very valuable. I can't see anything Smart does at a good level on offense in the NBA aside from FT%. He is a better defender, but he is so bad offensively 3 years in that I would much rather run the chance of Fox developing than Smart. Looking at his numbers he is shooting about the same from everywhere as his rookie year, with roughly the same shooting attempt rate, and with only improvement from the FT line. I would expect at least some legitimate minor improvement by now given how bad he was coming out on the offensive end. Besides, mindset matters and Smart straight chucks on offense. And when you watch him they aren't good shots. He almost has Brandon Knight's mentality imo (Knight takes a couple more shots a game/minute, but Knight is also a much better shooter than Smart sadly).

Another issue is he has a reputation as a winner (similar to Knight), which means he will get paid a premium that might not be warranted (like Knight), and he is an FA fairly soon.

I honestly wouldn't trade any of our youngsters for him except maybe Peters. Maybe I am being too harsh there, but I would rather Ulis get those minutes. Imo Ulis will end up better than Smart within 2 years. I'd take a pick or Bled way above Smart.

If we could get him for one of the vets, like Dudley or Chandler, okay. Then I'd be alright taking the chance on him given his age with the hopes he becomes anything on offense.

And look at his Playoff Numbers. Stls --> ; eFG% --> ; 3PT% --> ; TRBs --> ; TS% --> ...point being, it these types of things that help portray that type of reputation. When you play BETTER in a 'higher amped' environment, that's a positive for a player, IMO. He didn't 'crumble' under the pressure; he embraced it. He didn't 'explode' or anything, but he did improve somewhat.

He was still at best a neutral player, and me saying that is generous.

[Mulhollanddrive]

Marcus Smart is a good player and Josh Jackson is a future PG only gets said in the off season.

[MrMiyagi]

Oh, this thread is still going?