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2019 season speculation including trade ideas

Moderators: bwgood77, Qwigglez, lilfishi22

Will Booker make the all-star team this year?

Yes
38
49%
No
39
51%
 
Total votes: 77

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Re: 2019 season speculation: Just one more week til season opener OMG!! 

Post#581 » by bwgood77 » Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:23 pm

ImNotMcDiSwear wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
GoodBehavior wrote:
It reminds me of Anthony Davis' early development and progression. Fans do not get to see what these guys are capable of, and judge what's in front of them (college tapes and games when DA is a rookie) rather than the potential upside. There's a information vacuum void. Coaches, GM, and players, however, get to see more than we do. And everyone in the organization believes that DA will be dominant. Oubre mentioned it recently, for example.

It's not just people in the organization. Klay Thompson said earlier this year that DA could be the best center in this league. But did say it will take time. Fans on this forum, however, don't have much patience and criticize every little thing he does work. It's understandable given the progression of Alex, Marquese, JJ, etc., so I can see why guys like Bwgood are jaded.


AD was a beast in college and led his team to a national championship. He averaged 4.7 bpg. Ayton was less than 2 bpg and got carved up by a small school in the first round of the tourney. Their whole strategy was based on exploiting Ayton.

AD was a great defensive rookie C and a great defender in college. Ayton is a nice likely 20/10 guy with good efficiency inside, as of now.

Klay isn't wrong in that Ayton could be the best C in the league, but so could a lot of guys. I hope Ayton improves on D and think he will to some extent. The extent of improvement will depend on how far he goes. You always hear he is a hard worker, so that's good.

I'm not nearly as low on him as some are though if you go through the game threads. He's been about what I expected and I think he can get better.


Ayton's just such a weird player. His touch might be the best I've ever seen in a big man. And I know it's weird to say (because his defensive shortcomings and mistakes are so frequently apparent), but I think his improvement on the defensive end was evident in preseason. It was inconsistent, but finally we saw him pick up the guard on penetration and get some blocks. Occasionally, he would remember that he needs to battle for rebounding position. Overall, the improvements I saw from him this preseason were further confirmation of his extreme talent level.

OTOH, your concern about BBIQ continues to be validated. He gets lost on both ends, often isn't looking the right direction, and doesn't get his hands up all the time. It seems at times like he's overthinking, and at other times like he's overwhelmed. It's comforting to think that these are just problems young players have, and he'll grow out of them. But it may also be that his head's not in the right spot. Does he have what it takes mentally to reach his potential?

The good news for the team is a big part of why Ayton's defensive shortcomings are so glaring is that the team's defense has so obviously improved. Ayton's no longer the third or fourth defensive breakdown of the possession, so it stands out a bit more when it's just him screwing things up. Same thing with turnovers on the offensive end.

Hope to see continued improvement as the year and his career progress.


Yes, I noticed him provide help and block a shot under the basket which is not something I normally had seen from him in the past. I wasn't nearly as down on him in the last preseason game as many.
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Re: 2019 season speculation: Just one more week til season opener OMG!! 

Post#582 » by bwgood77 » Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:25 pm

GoodBehavior wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
GoodBehavior wrote:
It reminds me of Anthony Davis' early development and progression. Fans do not get to see what these guys are capable of, and judge what's in front of them (college tapes and games when DA is a rookie) rather than the potential upside. There's a information vacuum void. Coaches, GM, and players, however, get to see more than we do. And everyone in the organization believes that DA will be dominant. Oubre mentioned it recently, for example.

It's not just people in the organization. Klay Thompson said earlier this year that DA could be the best center in this league. But did say it will take time. Fans on this forum, however, don't have much patience and criticize every little thing he does work. It's understandable given the progression of Alex, Marquese, JJ, etc., so I can see why guys like Bwgood are jaded.


AD was a beast in college and led his team to a national championship. He averaged 4.7 bpg. Ayton was less than 2 bpg and got carved up by a small school in the first round of the tourney. Their whole strategy was based on exploiting Ayton.

AD was a great defensive rookie C and a great defender in college. Ayton is a nice likely 20/10 guy with good efficiency inside, as of now.

Klay isn't wrong in that Ayton could be the best C in the league, but so could a lot of guys. I hope Ayton improves on D and think he will to some extent. The extent of improvement will depend on how far he goes. You always hear he is a hard worker, so that's good.

I'm not nearly as low on him as some are though if you go through the game threads. He's been about what I expected and I think he can get better.


DA carried that team on his back. He was unbelievable in the Pac 12 tournament. They didnt go far because their supposed two best returning players (Allonzo was projected to be a late first rounder and Alkins was projected to be a second rounder) struggled all season. And their best shooter is probably DA or Rustic. Sean Miller couldn't punish their 5-out scheme since Buffalo double up on DA on the entry pass, and UA couldn't shoot their way out of it.

AD was a defensive monster in college but limited on offense. His offense development surprised a lot of fans, even hard core Duke fans. But not his college coach, NBA coaches, and GMs who saw him practice. And that's my point. Fans think they are way smarter than they really are. Including myself. Insiders have way, way more information than us fans do.

I'll give you a perfect example. Fans (including myself) and "experts" (Cole Zwicker) doubted that DA would be a rim runner based on his performance in college. But Sean Miller and Ryan McDonough believe he will be elite, and they have been proven correct. His post up moves, including a nice counter move, has surprised fans as well since he show limited post moves at UA (mainly dropsteps). But people were raving about his Hakeem moves during UA practice that fans couldn't see.

My point is that I don't think you can even cap the potential of this kid. Insiders (GM, coaches, players) are seeing something special we fans are not allowed to see. I haven't seen this kid put the ball on the floor except a handful of rare incidences. But Igor believes he will be a grab and go player, like Giannis, soon.


I think his offensive skills are very advanced for his age, further than guys like AD. I have no issues on that side. Adding a 3 would be nice but I'm not that concerned with that. I don't think there is a cap you can put on him either, or anyone, for that matter, particularly a big with his size and athleticism.
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Re: 2019 season speculation: Just one more week til season opener OMG!! 

Post#583 » by bwgood77 » Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:34 pm

GM Survey...quite a few questions. Booker and Baynes each got votes in one of the categories.

https://www.nba.com/gmsurvey/2019
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2019 season speculation: Just one more week til season opener OMG!! 

Post#584 » by Jdiddy701 » Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:17 pm

Still hoping and praying the Suns trade Deandre Ayton for KAT. I would include Mikal Bridges in the deal, too. We are not good at developing players. My only hope is Monty Williams. I’m just tired of everyone leaving Phoenix and having a nice career after. Devin Booker is next...

I’m tired of being a joke franchise that everyone bashes.

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Re: 2019 season speculation: Just one more week til season opener OMG!! 

Post#585 » by GoodBehavior » Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:38 pm

Jdiddy701 wrote:Still hoping and praying the Suns trade Deandre Ayton for KAT. I would include Mikal Bridges in the deal, too. We are not good at developing players. My only hope is Monty Williams. I’m just tired of everyone leaving Phoenix and having a nice career after. Devin Booker is next...

I’m tired of being a joke franchise that everyone bashes.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I don't think you can get any worse than Josh Jackson. Hopefully that pick/player was the bottom and its nothing but up from there.

I think this is a big reason why lots of Suns fans, even non-Suns Fans, are rooting for DA to develop into a dominant force in the NBA. The organization really, really needs him to be a monster, to show that this organization isn't a joke. And Monty and his assistant coach has been on DA this entire summer. I think everyone knows what is at stake. Those Draymond's comments and other bashing is going to disappear if it happens.
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Re: 2019 season speculation: Just one more week til season opener OMG!! 

Post#586 » by SunsLyf3 » Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:00 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
SunsLyf3 wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:Is Draymond wrong? Though Chriss didn't do anything to help himself either.

Regarding Ayton from a few posts back, yes, he is one of the most efficient bigs...so is Thomas Bryant, who was actually the most efficient last year, and even shot 3s. Their per 36 #s are very similar. I really like Bryant and is going to be good. Ayton and Bryant are solid. But it's not like we have an Embiid or Towns yet. Maybe he develops into that, we'll see, but besides having a high FG% from inside for a 7 footer and double digit rebounds for a 7 footer, neither of which is super special, he hasn't done a whole lot yet. But he has only played one season so he certainly has time and room to grow. It's all up to him.

I guess the Rockets and Cleveland writers are **** too. Draymond is completely wrong here. He claims that the the media not bashing the Suns is the reason why Chriss sucked. He's not blaming the organization but the media :lol: :lol: . 2 bottom feeders and a contender all gave up on him in the same season. I remember seeing/hearing a report his rookie season that stated Chriss's mom made him switch to basketball in high school due to a football injury. If he was forced to become a basketball player due to his size and athletic ability alone and not cause he wanted to then he's not going to succeed period.


I agree he is wrong about the media not saying bad things about the Suns. I don't think that the organization and Earl Watson and company was probably the best thing for Chriss' development, despite him starting. He may have gotten too much too early and it prevented him from getting the work ethic he needed. And then of course we had a revolving door of coaches and personnel. But he obviously had his own problems as well.

I do agree with your take on the development part. Len is the perfect current example. Chriss I do think is almost a lost cause though. I've never seen Chriss show any promise outside of a rare block or dunk. He's lost in the offensive end and would rather whine to the ref about calls instead of trying on defense. MAYBE he turns it around like ZBo did but even ZBo had the talent.
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Re: 2019 season speculation: Just one more week til season opener OMG!! 

Post#587 » by lilfishi22 » Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:56 pm

Crives wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:
Crives wrote:Anyone ready to join me yet in Warriors missing the playoffs?

One of my predictions for playoffs locks was taking GSW over LA. Looking like I already goofed before the season even began


Now everyone needs to join me... time to sweep GS.

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Re: 2019 season speculation: Just one more week til season opener OMG!! 

Post#588 » by Frank Lee » Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:37 pm

How can you argue with that ? We had a sheety front office and coaching staff. McDontExpectToGMAgain's stamp is all over that brief era.
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Re: 2019 season speculation: Just one more week til season opener OMG!! 

Post#589 » by lilfishi22 » Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:56 pm

ChrisInAZ wrote:
Wilber85 wrote: Ayton avg 20/10 + this year watch


I agree, 20/10 is probably right, but those numbers won’t have a lot of weight if they are like 9/16 from the field, 2/3 from the line, his offensive aggressiveness not putting/gathering fouls on opponents front line defenders...not creating gravity and headaches for the oppos coaches to really worry about in general. And then there’s the other side of the court still “in development”. Progress for sure year one... long way to go on the D for Deandre.

I’m waiting and hoping Ayton has “force” potential. Haven’t seen it yet. So far he’s been more or less “Mr. Default, talented 7 footer” Read: nothing really that special. He should get 10 rebs and around 20 pts with what he’s got ...but as a #1 overall? He needs to eventually deliver much, muchh more, and in many departments

Saw your comment about being sure the Suns will top the Mavs this year. Won’t bet money with you, but I’d wager with you on that prediction in RGM terms if you want

I feel like this is something a lot of people don't seem to understand. To me, 20/10 is just a milestone. Like Booker averaging 20ppg+ in his 2nd season. That's a really good milestone for a young player, especially one that was taken towards the end of the lottery. That's all well and good but those 22ppg he averaged in his 2nd season was largely done in isolation of real impact because he wasn't efficient, he wasn't (and still isn't) defending well and his passing game was still in its infancy. So Ayton hitting 20/10 is a milestone, for him to have real game changing impact (like Booker's scoring), he'll need to be able to do more than just be efficient around the rim. He needs to be versatile with his scoring abilities while staying efficient, he'll need to be dominant at least in the paint and he'll need to get better defensively overall.

I always go back to the Wiggins example. The guy puts up solid numbers (career 19/4) but he sucks because aside from a handful of games a year when he's actually dominant, he really doesn't impact the game even with his scoring because he's not efficient, he isn't focused defensively and he doesn't stretch the floor. As a #1 pick, that's not exactly good.

So Ayton hitting 20/10 is good. It's a good milestone to hit but if he's only truly dominant with an impressive display of defense, passing and just unstoppable offense a couple of games a month, is just OK 10 games the rest of the month and disappearing once a month; then what is that? That's good? Is that the low bar we're setting for a #1 pick in probably the most loaded draft since 2009 (Curry, Harden, Blake etc) or perhaps 2003 (Lebron, Wade, Melo etc)?

People think I hate Ayton. I don't. He's really talented, he has the physicals and he has a strong skill set. But so did Wiggins, that's the problem. I don't want him to be just good, I want him to be great because that's the expectation that comes from being the #1 pick.
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Re: 2019 season speculation: Just one more week til season opener OMG!! 

Post#590 » by LukasBMW » Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:02 am

We gave up on a lot of our players too early and it will come back to bite us in the ass.

That said, Chriss sure didn't act like a grown up while he was here.
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Re: 2019 season speculation: Just one more week til season opener OMG!! 

Post#591 » by sunsbum » Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:08 am

Jdiddy701 wrote:Still hoping and praying the Suns trade Deandre Ayton for KAT. I would include Mikal Bridges in the deal, too. We are not good at developing players. My only hope is Monty Williams. I’m just tired of everyone leaving Phoenix and having a nice career after. Devin Booker is next...

I’m tired of being a joke franchise that everyone bashes.

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"Mannnnn I’m like the guy that pissed this whole board off saying literally all year no Mikal, no Mikal in the KD trade."
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Re: 2019 season speculation: Just one more week til season opener OMG!! 

Post#592 » by Frank Lee » Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:31 am

Counting on Ayton to be some superstar is setting yourself up for disappointment. He doesnt have the drive nor maturity. He just doesnt know how to play basketball....yet. May be in another year or so he can make the jump, but I dont see anything he does right now that isnt a result of his physical advantages. The challenge this year is him to settle into a defined role and play to his offensive strengths, meaning 10 feet and in. And he shouldnt do anymore interviews about what he thinks he is or is going to be. Shut up and play kid.
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Re: 2019 season speculation: Just one more week til season opener OMG!! 

Post#593 » by suns12345 » Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:51 am

Frank Lee wrote:Counting on Ayton to be some superstar is setting yourself up for disappointment. He doesnt have the drive nor maturity. He just doesnt know how to play basketball....yet. May be in another year or so he can make the jump, but I dont see anything he does right now that isnt a result of his physical advantages. The challenge this year is him to settle into a defined role and play to his offensive strengths, meaning 10 feet and in. And he shouldnt do anymore interviews about what he thinks he is or is going to be. Shut up and play kid.


Stop telling me things I know to be true but don't want to accept :(
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Re: 2019 season speculation: Just one more week til season opener OMG!! 

Post#594 » by grumpysaddle » Fri Oct 18, 2019 2:10 am

This off-season was weird. that game canceled in SL because of the earthquake. And then this long ass break between the last preseason game and the regular season. Why did the Suns only play 4 preseason games, when most other teams play 5? The Suns definitely need all the game experience they can get.
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Re: 2019 season speculation: Just one more week til season opener OMG!! 

Post#595 » by Crives » Fri Oct 18, 2019 2:22 am

lilfishi22 wrote:
Crives wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:One of my predictions for playoffs locks was taking GSW over LA. Looking like I already goofed before the season even began


Now everyone needs to join me... time to sweep GS.

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Well... The jump decided to have a segment on greens comment and they literally called us a “trash organization” about 10 times.
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Re: 2019 season speculation: Just one more week til season opener OMG!! 

Post#596 » by Frank Lee » Fri Oct 18, 2019 3:25 am

I think I will start out pessimistic and critical, ease into an acceptance of mediocrity, then finish jaded and tired. Its probably going to take about 15-20 games for this team to figure itself out. And then we'll figure out that Ayton is still the same shrinking violet, Book needs the ball, and we absolutely dont get a lick of D from our starting 5 and them some.

It begins with the folly notion that we need to build around someone who is riding on potential, clearly under acheives, loafs up and down the floor, and avoids anything that resembles physical contact, then makes comments about 'old school' and 'dominance' .... Frankly, Id rather see Book shoot 25 times a night.

#HatinOnAyton Whos with me ? 8-)
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Re: 2019 season speculation: Just one more week til season opener OMG!! 

Post#597 » by NapoleonII » Fri Oct 18, 2019 3:30 am

I'm still under the cool shade of the "bigs take longer to develop" tree. There's lots of room under it. DA's stats under last year's dumpster fire were incredible. His skills are there.

What I'm excited about is Monty. We haven't had a coach this capable and experienced under a non **** show GM for a long time.
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Re: 2019 season speculation: Just one more week til season opener OMG!! 

Post#598 » by Frank Lee » Fri Oct 18, 2019 3:48 am

Someone needs to keep a stat on the gift rebounds Ayton gets. I think his stats were inflated and don’t really reflect how much of a pansy he is. Aggression is a trait he does not have. Better get off the high post **** experiment and soon. He doesn’t have head for the decisive reaction needed in a strong roller.

I could go on but it isn’t needed. I think He’s 3 yrs out from what we want him and need him to be. By then, book will be tired of his jabbering about what he says he’s going to become.

Our #1 might be the 5th best player in that draft. He’s just not a baller
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Re: 2019 season speculation: Just one more week til season opener OMG!! 

Post#599 » by Mystical Apples » Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:08 am

Frank Lee wrote:Someone needs to keep a stat on the gift rebounds Ayton gets. I think his stats were inflated and don’t really reflect how much of a pansy he is. Aggression is a trait he does not have. Better get off the high post **** experiment and soon. He doesn’t have head for the decisive reaction needed in a strong roller.

I could go on but it isn’t needed. I think He’s 3 yrs out from what we want him and need him to be. By then, book will be tired of his jabbering about what he says he’s going to become.

Our #1 might be the 5th best player in that draft. He’s just not a baller


On point observation for sure. Defensive rebounds in particular are wildly overrated....box out rates, contested rates, deferred rebounds, and rebounds distances do better jobs of painting the complete picture. Rebound distance, for example, is a proxy for perimeter defense and more generally defensive versatility.

Baynes, Holmes, and Kaminsky for example are honorees in the Brook Lopez BoxOut Association.

And to be clear Ayton is clearly the most gifted rebounder of the bunch...by a mile. But in the regular season defensive rebounding is a team sport measured by 5-man effectiveness.

https://stats.nba.com/players/defensive-rebounding/?Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&CF=GP*G*41:MIN*GE*15&sort=DREB_CONTEST_PCT&dir=1&PlayerPosition=C
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Re: 2019 season speculation: Just one more week til season opener OMG!! 

Post#600 » by Crives » Fri Oct 18, 2019 5:56 am

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